Episode 154: From Taboo to Truth: Redefining Sex, Dating, and Pleasure After 50

Suzanne Noble: I'm very excited to welcome our new sponsor, Higher Nature, who have created Rekindle, which I'm currently trying out and is working a treat. A 100% natural libido-enhancing supplement for women, which contains clinically backed ingredients to give your sex life a boost. And who doesn't want that? This week's episode has been sponsored by Oh My Bod, shifting the evolution of pleasure. Hi, this is Suzanne Noble, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. Do you know there's no end to the conversations that women over 50 can have when it comes to online dating? No end because everybody's got stories. And I know that so many people, and myself included, sometimes can find the whole situation completely overwhelming and actually not very fun, if I'm really honest. But today's guest is coming to the show all the way from Los Angeles. She's got her own podcast where she talks about dating and midlife and sex, amongst other topics. Her name is Karen Bickman, and her Her podcast is called Taboo to Truth: Life and Sex After 50, where she says she launched it after turning 60 to tackle the often shame-filled, awkward, and whispered conversations about sex in midlife. And I know plenty about that. She's a certified sexuality educator with the Sexual Health Alliance, and she's also a certified menopause sex and relationship coach. And as a result, she brings all of that expertise, empathy, and like me, a healthy dose of humor to topics many would prefer to avoid, but we're not going to avoid them today, are we, Karen?

Absolutely not. And I love it. It's like many people want to avoid it, but as soon as you tell them what you do, what you do, they're like, wait, can I tell you about my sex life or lack of sex life?

Yeah. Or just, I'm always, you know, it's funny you should say that because I am constantly surprised. I don't know about you, but I am constantly surprised about the questions I get asked, and they're mainly in response to issues around painful sex. I get a lot of women who say to me, I'd like to have more sex, but it really hurts. And I say, what about vaginal estrogen? And they're like, what's that?

Yeah, yeah. There's so many things. And I think women sort of accept, and that's the message they've been given, the medical system doesn't help, that you're washed out. You don't, don't worry about it. You don't need sex. It's okay. Like, if it hurts, don't, just don't do it. Or they're willing to tolerate it for the sake of their partner, particularly in heterosexual couples. And that just really upsets me.

No, I know, it's terrible. I mean, I was one of those people actually before— actually, somebody I interviewed on the show said to me, why aren't you on it? I just went— because I didn't know about it, because no one told me. But anyway, why did you start your podcast? What was that all about?

It was— I was about to turn 60, had done different— I had been a divorce coach, I had worked in technology and business systems. I was kind of all over the map most of my, my career after being a stay-at-home mom for many years. And so I wasn't sure what I wanted to do, but I had had my own experience years before that I now realize probably set me up to be in this, in this business. When I got divorced, which was about 10 years ago now, I started dating someone and we were having sex like, literally, I was living in New York City, pulling the car over on 63rd Street under, you know, next to the Duane Reade pharmacy, and just fucking under the lights, right. So we were just— and I was having trouble having orgasms. And it was like, I hadn't had sex with my ex-husband for so long. And here I was, and I'm like, something's wrong, something's wrong. I went to my gynecologist. And it is really, it's kind of an awkward conversation to have with your gynecologist, because, you know, she knows you had sex because you have babies. I mean, for me, I had babies, but, and she said, well, you're getting divorced, must, you know, must be in your head kind of thing. And I persisted. And eventually, she sent me to a sexual medicine practice where I learned that— forget about vaginal estrogen— I didn't have any testosterone. So that was, was the major problem. And at 52 years old, they showed me a bullet vibrator, which I had never seen. I'd heard of vibrators, but I never had seen one. They sent me into the room next door and said, go try this. And I literally came within, I'm like, like right there, doctor's orders, go in the exam room number 2 and go do your thing. And I came out with info like, that was fast. I'm like, oh my God, like this just changed my life. Oh, that was, that was my sexual awakening, if you will.

I love bullet vibrators, I have to say.

They don't work so well for me anymore, but at the time they were, they were great. I like that, you know, the bigger Juicy.

I just had the small one. Yeah, I still prefer my little small one.

They have their purpose.

That was transformational.

Yeah, yeah. And they pair you with— it was a— there was a medical professional nurse practitioner and a sex therapist who I got to know, and she's kind of like a little Dr. Ruth. Her name is Vacheva Marcus, and she's wonderful. And I got friendly with her, and I actually invited her to my house, and she came. She spoke to a bunch of my friends and showed us all different vibrators, and it was a ton of fun. And so I was always somebody who talked about this with people. And as my 60th was, was coming, I moved out here to— I'm actually south of Los Angeles. It's quite a conservative community as opposed to LA. And people, the conversations were like, people were not able to talk about it. And I know I'm a little, you know, out there for this, for this community. But I just said, like, I've got these thoughts in my head about sex, about midlife, about dating, and like, fuck it, I'm just gonna pick up a phone and start recording, see what happens. And I played one or two episodes to my girlfriend. She said, just do but like, what, what's going to happen if you don't? I had no, no career plan at the moment. And I just started doing it. And the more I did it, the more it became interesting. And I certified as a menopause coach because that conversation started to get louder. And of course, that was something I learned about, although I didn't know like that it would put me where it was. And then I discovered the Sexual Health Alliance and did a certification as a sex educator. And that just opened my world up to like, wow, there is a whole world of sexuality that goes beyond the vanilla, you know, monogamous penis in vagina, Sunday morning sex, as Kristina would say. So, and I'm fascinated by it. I see how important it is. I see how the attitude that, that people have towards women no longer being sexual, and attitude, the self— not deprecation, that the self sort of loathing and the idea that we don't need pleasure, that like, it's okay, like, we're not pleasure seekers, like, let him have his pleasure. Let you know, if I have pain, I just won't have sex anymore. I just like, I have to live with pain. And I'm like on a mission to say like, no, ladies and gentlemen, but ladies, like, we need to, you know, we need, we need to enjoy life, especially now post-menopause.

Yeah. And I think the thing is, what you said at the beginning is so true. It's still, even though I've been doing this for a few years now, and you've been doing this for a little while, it's still so much of a taboo topic. I mean, people really They, I don't know about you, probably because I've been doing this for a bit of time now. Today, for example, I got somebody writing to me that said, I've seen your content. I'm with an agency. I think that you could be making $30,000 a month by creating courses and creating this and creating that and selling all of this stuff and everything. And because they've been to people that do this other stuff, right? Just vanilla, not sexy stuff, just normal stuff. And I'm thinking, yeah, that sounds really great. But the reality is that most people over 50, over 60 are still not buying courses about how to be better in bed. They're just, they're just trying to see if they can get their libido back, you know, and everything. So there's a part of me that's like, yeah, I'm sure there are ways to make lots of money out of this. I haven't found them yet, because I find that the topic is still very taboo. And it's still something where people point to people like you and us and go, you're so brave. Yes, brave, right? I bet you get that all the time. You're so brave. And I think I'm not really— I don't really think I'm that brave. I just think that somebody's got to talk about this shit, because people do want to continue to have sex as they get older. And they do want it to be fun, and they do want to have orgasms, and they do want it to not be painful, and they do want to be able to get it up and, you know, get wet and all that kind of stuff. And, and there's no reason why they can't have all of that, but they just don't know how.

Absolutely. And it's good for your health.

Well, yeah.

I don't know if you've ever seen work by Dr. Mohit Khera. He's like a men's sexual dysfunction doctor. He talks about your your lifespan and your sex span should be the same.

Like, we—

why is it that we, you know, we were like, ew, like our parents having sex? Oh, people like— we should be cheering them on, right?

And you're right, because all the statistics and the real science— and this is not just like bogus science, real science— there's real evidence that when you continue to have sex in later life, you live longer, you're healthier, you're happier, and big one for me anyway, is the risk of dementia goes way down. And like, I really don't want to get dementia. So I'm just gonna keep fucking to prevent cognitive decline. Because I think that's—

we need to have fucking parties, anti-dementia fucking parties. I love this.

Yeah, but yeah, why not? Why not have, you know, reduce your likelihood of cognitive decline? Absolutely. People. Yeah. So, so what's your, what's your situation currently then? You, you got divorced. Because we were going to talk about dating and some of the dating disasters and, and, and now we've moved on to dementia. But anyway, what's—

that can cause dementia.

That's true.

Or sometimes you think you have dementia because you're like, what am I doing with this guy in front of me? It's just like, what was I thinking?

What's your situation, Karen? What's your situation?

So I have been divorced. I've been separated 12, divorced 10 years. I've had 2 long-term relationships and my last one broke up now 4 years ago. After 5 years together, he went broke, which was quite disappointing that a 58-year-old man had no, not a pot to piss in, as my late father would have said. And so that was hard. And I came out to California to sort of like figure it out. And I've been sort of sowing a little bit of my wild oats, but also been on quite a few dates. There will be some content to come from it moving forward. It's been interesting. It's been interesting trying to have an attitude of like, no, men don't suck. I mean, I'm pretty fairly— I'm not fairly— I'm heterosexual. I have been a serial monogamist. I don't know where I'm at this point. I'm open to opportunities of multiple partners simply because I can't seem to find anyone really, really good one. And so it's been interesting to learn like, what are the What are the— I don't even know if they're red flags. Sometimes you just don't know what you don't know, or you just like say, like, you can't make this shit up. You just can't make this shit up.

Wow. It's true.

And it's been a journey. But I think doing this work has gotten me to be much more honest and much more open about what I need and what's important to me and not just like take any shit that comes up in front of me because it's there. Or if I take it, I'm willing to kick it out faster.

I think it was really interesting. Yesterday I read an article by a young woman who conducted a little experiment. She'd been dumped and ghosted numerous times, so clearly this doesn't just happen to our age group, this happens at all ages, right? And she'd been dumped or ghosted numerous times and she decided that she wanted to do a little survey of the people that had dumped and ghosted her to find out, now that significant time had passed, so it wasn't just like last week, what their reason was for doing that, for dumping or ghosting her. So she sent them a very lighthearted kind of message to just say, I'm just doing, I'm just doing a little random survey. I've got a quick question I want to ask you. Right. And, and it was, you know, related to, I'm just curious to know, like, why didn't, why did you ghost me? Right.

Right.

Right. And the answers were, I have to say, I found them fascinating. Because in some respects they made absolutely perfect sense, and in other respects they made kind of no sense and they were quite comical. So quite a few people had mentioned the fact that she vaped. Okay. And they didn't— and they— that was a bit of a red flag for them. And that for me was like, well, if that's something you don't like, then why don't you just say on your profile, like, no vapers? Yeah, no smokers, no vapers. Right. But she, she hadn't— she just vaped in the thing. And so that had that had knocked out quite a significant number of them. And the other one was that they came over to her flat and they saw it was a bit messy, and they were really tidy, and they, and they were like, I don't think this can go anywhere because there's, there's too much clutter for me here, and this is just, this is a bit of a red flag, right? These are things that I never think to put down, by the way, on, on any profile that I've ever written. I've never— I'm incredibly tidy, so I am a bit fussy about that. But it's funny that— and the other one was this just came at a really bad time. Somebody, one of my family members died. I had a lot to deal with at the time, and I just couldn't get my shit together to, you know, it just— I just— yeah, just a bit of a random excuse, right? But I just thought it's Like, have you asked people, any of these people that you either been with or not been, you know, like, have you asked them, like, what was, what was going on there for you?

Not the one thing that is sort of interesting about— I give a lot of credit to that woman because I don't have the guts to do that, but I wish I do. But what the idea that ghosting is okay. And I just— it's funny because I just started dating somebody new a few days ago, and we— one of our first conversations, we had a very long conversation, and he said, I said, like, you know, you can't make this shit up that's happened to me kind of thing. And I'm like, like, just a couple weeks ago, I had a date with somebody. It was like, we'd had coffee, then we went out. And he was like, dying to go home with me. And there was like, no way in hell. But we said, he said, when can I see you again? I said, okay, Thursday, it was Tuesday. Wednesday, I get this text that says, I can't wait to see you tomorrow. And Thursday, he ghosted me. So I'm just like, why is it okay to ghost someone? So what I was telling this new guy that I'm dating, I said, like, If we're not a match, be so kind as to say, thank you, we are not a match.

What—

but it seems to be socially acceptable to ghost, that it is, it's okay to ghost. And I just feel like that is maybe because of my attachment style, which is extremely anxious when someone ghosts me, even if they were the most like horrible person, I never— I would have ghosted, like I was not interested in them. I just feel like common courtesy is to say no, thank you. And so whatever the excuse is, in my mind, if you are not polite enough to say no thank you, or you don't have the balls to say no thank you, then like, you're not worth your time. But I don't, I don't understand this culture that it's acceptable to ghost people because it's just—

Well, I'm going out with someone tonight that ghosted me for months, so obviously you don't have the same issues. Do you want to hear this? Because this is quite funny, right? So I met up with somebody. It was just like on a casual site, right? But he lived, he lives really local to me. Like, I, it's a 20-minute walk. I just have to walk. I literally have to come out my street, turn left, and just keep walking, right? That's how close he is. Really good. Which in London is impossible, right? Because it's— this is a massive city. So most of the people that I sleep with are like across the city. Takes them a really long time for me to get to them or for them to get to me. So, you know, I was like, great, local is good. I like local. Local is good. I never meet locals, so that's good. And went— really cute guy— went, had some fun with him. I can't remember how many months ago. Ago it was. He was like, really, really, really, you know, God, I really want you and all this shit. It's just all this crap that he was telling me. Anyway, I then, we couldn't kind of get together again. And then I told him like, I see someone on a regular basis, but it's a casual thing. It's been, it's been going on for a while, but it's very casual. He may see other people as well. I don't know. I don't really care, to be honest. Anyway, he then just disappears. Goes absolutely totally silent. And I wrote a few times and then he just like disappeared. And then he just popped up again, like out of nowhere. And then I said, "Oh, right, you're back." And I thought, I'm not going to mention you've ghosted me for 6 months. Like I haven't heard anything. Rochi didn't respond. Like all this, I was just, I'm not going to do it. So I told my friend, he's a spy. That's what I've worked out. I've created a story that he's a spy. And that he's been on a mission and that that's clearly what he's been— he's gone undercover. He can't talk to me, otherwise it makes no sense. And today I said to my friend, okay, we're meeting in 2 hours. What's the chance that we're gonna meet or not? And he's like, well— and then we went through all the excuses. Excuse one was something's come up at work, it's unavoidable, I'm so sorry. Second one was, "I'm really not feeling very well. I hate to let you down. I was really looking forward to seeing you." Number 3 was, "I've gotta go outta town suddenly and I just am not gonna be able to make it." So we just went through this whole thing and then 5 minutes later he's like, "We on for 7:30?" And my friend went, "Looks like you're on." And I went, "There you go." But honestly, up until the minute that I leave the house, I'm perfectly prepared in my head that some, some, something may just suddenly— because I just don't, I have no, I just don't have any expectations anymore about any of this. I just, it's just like, yeah.

And you, I know you, you have multiple partners. Like, for me, I'm looking for the, you know, for a partner. And, um, you know, I'm not so naive as to believe in like the soulmate, the one, the like, all that shit. I'm like way past that, you know, 60, almost 62 years old. Like, I, you know, whatever. I just want a nice companion that I can fuck, you know. That would be be a really good, that would be a really good thing. And fuck well, you know.

I bet you do. I'm so amazed that you live in California where there's loads of people I suspect that would fuck you. But I guess my question to you is, hearing that, is how soon do you have sex with somebody after you've met them?

It depends is the answer. Try— when I first started, I felt sort of liberated that it'd be like okay to have sex on like the second or third. I think my third date was my, was mine, and then I kept breaking my own rule. But I was also like, well, we have to get the STI test, but I always sleep with someone before the STI test, and then I was very fortunate that nothing, nothing went down. And since I've been doing this work, I get much more— nothing comes off below the waist until I know that, that typically that's my— that's what I say. I don't know, I sometimes break my own rules and have STI testing. So like, like, I'm torn. I have a third, kind of a third date tonight. We went on one really, really long date. We've talked on the phone a lot. He brought his friends over, and now we're going on a date. Opportunity is there, but I'm also somebody who can get attached very quickly, then that's why I get disappointed. And so I know myself, so I feel like I'm a horny bitch, but I like need to push it off and say like, okay, Karen, let's try not to have sex tonight, because in the end, it's like, if he's— I'm okay if like I just sleep with something, there's nothing wrong with it. I don't judge it. I've done it. But I, but I feel like if I'm looking to have a relationship with somebody, it would be better for me if at least we, you know, we didn't get completely naked until we were in some more of, you know, somewhat of a committed situation. But that being said, I like— I don't— there's almost no rules. Like, I just— it's more of an emotional rule than a physical rule.

Yeah, no, it's like, if you are— if you are still a person that, you know, for whom sex is really important and you want to find somebody that you like, then if you, if you like them, if you, if you laugh, for me anyway, like if I laugh with somebody and I, and I am intimate with them, and we have some sort of compatibility there, and I don't just mean like chemistry because I think chemistry is a bit overrated. I mean, you know, like they like doing the same things that I like doing, right? Like, I can't be with a guy who doesn't like oral sex, for instance, like either way, I just like guys that don't like oral sex.

Yeah, there are.

Well, there's guys that don't like going down. There are guys that don't, you know, or they say they like it but they don't really like it that much. And then, you know, it's sort of always a bit— feels a bit more one way than the other. And so when I meet somebody that likes the same kind of stuff that I do, then that's kind of— then I always feel, oh, there's some potential there. Because I just think generally it takes so long to actually get to know a person. Like, You can put on your perfect self for so long, and, and it's not until you actually, like, spend time with them, you know, whether it's casual or not casual. And I know so many people whose relationships have started off without the intention to make it so serious, and then they just had a really good time, and then they just thought, you know, I don't really— I'm not really thinking about being with anybody else because we're just having We're just having a really nice time. It's really fun. Whereas I always feel if it's loaded with I'm looking for something, then it can get a bit scary for people. It's like, well, I don't know if I'm ready for that, you know? Yeah.

And I, and I, you know, I'm like, I'm clear I'm looking for a relationship, but I'm also clear I'm not looking for a 24/7.

Yeah.

And, and I, I say that on my profile and I look for people that say on theirs. And that being said, like I said, just Recently I've started to look at on sites that have people that are, that are in E&M or whatever the heck you call it, open relationships. I don't know how I would, how I would be with that. I've never been in that situation. But do you find that, that the sex makes you want the relationship more? It doesn't matter. The sex is separate from the, at least in the beginning, the sex is separate from the relationship.

No, I mean, if the sex is really fun and good, then obviously I'm more, I would like to spend I'd like to get to know the person a bit better, but then there is, there always does come a point where I'm very aware of whether or not things would actually work on a more serious level. Right. Right. There just gets to a point where either somebody expresses a political view that's very significantly different to my own in a way that's slightly horrifying. And I think, you know, we couldn't have serious conversations about this because it would just be kind of No. Or they've got like a lot of other stuff that's going on in the background. I mean, at our age, you know, we got older parents. Some people I know are still bringing up kids because they had their kids late, right? So they're schlepping around teenage kids on the weekends and things. And I'm like, do I want to really go to a football match with somebody and their kids, like standing around in the muddy ground for like 3 hours watching someone else's child kick a ball around? I don't think so, right? So do they want to travel the world with me? Could they potentially do that? Haven't met anyone yet that ticks that particular box, which is my box. So I'm very aware of like where the, where the challenges are. So I just like, I'm just like, okay, this is fun for this. This is good for this. And then other people are good for going to the theater or chilling or doing other stuff. But yeah, I mean, I just can't get to— I've, I've yet to meet anybody who even the, you know, even ticks like 2 boxes, which is, which is, you know, mainly smart, funny, and good in bed. That's like 3. So they may be funny and good in bed, but not very smart or whatever. But yeah, I'm just, I'm just, I always think I'm just a pragmatist. People say I'm an avoidant, but I think I'm just pragmatic, frankly.

No, I think it's easier. I find it very hard to just go at it with like, I'm just going to have fun and see where it goes, which is what I should be doing because that would make it a lot easier and less disappointing. So I also, I was just, I just got off with my therapist and we were having this whole conversation like, how can I just be present in the date? Enjoy it. See where, you know, and like, if, you know, if it doesn't go anywhere, it doesn't go anywhere, or, you know, but it's hard. But I just sometimes I continue to be surprised at some of the things that like, you just like can't make this shit up. Like, oh, I was just thinking of this one guy. He was, I typically, I don't like to date men that are older than 65 because I just find, and I know it's a stereotype, but that they're just old.

It's old.

They're like, they're fetchy and they're, they look old. And I, you know, I said okay to this one guy. Guy we were talking, he actually was coming down from San Francisco. He agreed to come down to meet me. And he was interesting. He was a gynecologist who had gone around the world doing reparative surgeries and, you know, as humanitarian. So I'm like, okay, like, I'll, you know, I've not dated a gynecologist before. Let's try it. And he came and he stayed at a friend's. We had a date. And then the next morning, he came and hung out at the beach with me and we're walking the beach and run into my girlfriend who knew a little bit about him. You know, her, she's a larger body, whatever, like, I, you know, in California, everybody looks whatever. But, and we were walking by, she was, she's very friendly, and he was kind of snooty to her. And we'd had a nice time. I was like, not particularly attracted to him, but he was, it was like a nice companion. And she was like, where you from? I heard you're this. And she was trying to talk, and he was very, very snooty, walked away. And he said something to the effect of like, well, she shouldn't be wearing that bathing suit. And I was like, first of all, he was like 70, and we're in our 60s. And I was like, What the fuck? Like, like, where did that come from? Like I said, she's one of my best friends and you don't even know her. Like, how could you say so? So like, I had no idea. Like, you just, you just don't know. Then I had recently a guy who found out that finally did his STD testing and found out he had HPV. And then he said, I just don't feel like going on. And we had plans. I don't feel like going on a date tonight. And I don't really want to get any relationship now that I know that I have this. And we had had some pretty— I kind of broke my own rules with him a little bit, so I'm a little uncomfortable about it, but it was just like, okay, where is this coming from? And then I've met people who, like you, the young kids, or the kid has major mental health issues, a lot of that, which is very hard for them. But my ex-boyfriend had a daughter who had terrible mental health issues. I'm like, I am not going down that road again. Or the financial thing, that's the one that really, you know, continues to surprise me that these 60-year-old men do not have anything saved. They have no money. And I'm like, I don't need you to support me, but you need to support yourself. Like, that is a requirement for me. So yeah, I've absorbed.

When I was younger, I don't get it now. I don't— when I was definitely when I was in my 40s and guys were getting divorced in their 40s. Quite a few of them just ended up with nothing at all, you know. And I did have a boyfriend who moved in with me who just didn't have any money whatsoever. And I, and I went out once, you know, a few times with a guy who had moved back in with his parents. I don't see it as much now as I used to, but I do see that people, some people my age live very frugally, which, you know, to be honest, I don't have that much of a problem with, but Of course, when you're sharing a flat, you know, an apartment with others and stuff, I mean, you know, the guy that I see most regularly is sharing with his son. So that's restrictive in terms of, you know, what, where we can go. And I find all that sort of stuff is becoming much more commonplace now. It's just, things are pretty tough and yeah, but I hear you because my thing is I just want to work remotely. So I don't really care where I'm living. I just want to live where I want to live. And I find that most people that I meet are not in that position to just be able to just go.

Yeah, it's hard. And it's like the ones who have been very successful. And I, and I, again, this is a huge generalization, but they tend to be the narcissistic types that they're just not nice guys or they're looking for younger women. I mean, that is, you know, that again, also generalization. Occasionally, I mean, I don't, I mean, I'm fine with the working stiff if he's got a job, like, I don't, you know, that's fine. Just like have a job. You know, don't ask me to support you because that's where it ended up with the guy I was with. Like, I was supporting him. I'm just like, I'm not.

It's— No, no. And I've done that. Look, I've been there already. And I think after you've done that once or twice, or as my father said, you know, no one's ever moving back in with you again, are they? And I'm like, no, definitely not. But yeah, for me, I just want them to be able to— as long as they can look after themselves, I'm good. If occasionally they pay for a meal, that's very nice and generous. I'm not— there's no expectation there. But, you know, most of the people that I see now have got that kind of ability. So yeah, it's not— but it is a problem, you know, finances, difference in financial situations is a— it is a, it is a massive problem. And I think, just, you know, like I said before, for me, it's the complexity now of people's lives over at this age. It's just, there's just so much stuff going on and I'm trying to keep my life really simple. So when I meet someone who's got kids or this is going on or they have to visit their parents or whatever, I mean, I don't know what's going on with this guy tonight, but something's going on, right? Like something is going on, whether he's already got, whether he's already with somebody, whether he's got somebody he's looking, I don't know what's going on, but I know something's going on. Right? And it's just like, because otherwise, you know, why would you just pop back in and pop back out? Or, you know, but then I do know why, because I'm making myself available, so why not?

It sounds like you're okay with that though, you know. As long as you're okay with it and you're not doing something against your own values, then fuck it, enjoy, have a good time. But it clearly bothers you a little that he, that he's ghosting you.

Well, yeah, because nobody likes to be ghosted, as we discussed before. But I'm determined to get to the root of it and find out if he actually is spy and where he's been going undercover.

Because he is, he's not going to be telling you. But yeah, who knows?

I mean, whatever. I just, it's just the whole thing is just so, I just find the whole thing so amusing. And I think that's the, the bottom line for me with all of this is that if you are dating at this age, A, don't have too many expectations because it's easy to get disappointed. And I spoke to somebody last week who's like a big shot dating coach. Like, she's written books and she's, she's a real big shot. And she said a few things that I thought were pretty out there. And I'll just tell you, I'll just briefly summarize it because I'm keen to hear your thoughts. The first thing she said is you need to look at dating like you're looking at creating a business plan. So you need to have a strategy. You need to know exactly what you're looking for. You need to know where you're going to potentially find those people. You don't do the scattergun approach. You are very strategic in how you approach this, and that way you minimize wasting time and also potential disappointment. So that was, that was her first thing. The second thing she said is don't, don't spend too much time going on lots of dates. By date 3, suggest going away together. I was like, whoa, that seems really hardcore to me. I mean, she's like, doesn't matter, it could be somewhere like just for a couple of days, because 2 days with that person is going to tell you so much about them, about their approach to traveling, planning, spontaneity, like all sorts of stuff, right? It's just going to get all that shit out of the way. And you're going to be able to very quickly just, just decide. If it's brilliant, you go forward. If it's nothing's, you know, nothing's too risky. But I thought that was really— Also, she writes people's profiles for them. And I did think also, there's something to be said for extracting yourself out of the situation and giving the responsibility to someone else who can see you in a kind of slightly different way.

I think I interviewed her yesterday.

So she's great, isn't she? Yeah, she's great. She does like 100 million interviews.

So yeah, yeah. So okay, I'm being intentional in the business plan. I, I agree. I have found that the more I know my own values and my worth and my red flags and green flags and all that, that I will turn away a lot more people, which is probably why I have fewer dates. So I do agree with that. I think the third date is kind of a telling date whether I want to go away with the person. I think like they may sleep over on the third date. So that may be, you know, when someone stays over, if they like get up and run out in the morning, or they want to, you know, I had one guy bring me coffee in bed, which was really lovely. He was sleeping in the other— that was another— but he ended up being like, he didn't want to have sex. I'm like, okay, why? He's like, I love women, throw themselves at me. I need— I want to wait. So I'm like, okay, we'll go wait for someone else. He needs certain needs. But he did bring me coffee in bed, which was sweet, even though I don't drink it in bed. So I think, yeah, I think there's something to that. Um, and what was the third thing that she said?

So she said strategy and get someone else to write your profile.

Oh, someone else wrote your profile. So that brings up a really funny one. So the other day I saw this really nice profile. I started— I tried a new app called Plurra. And there was this like very nice profile. The guy looked cute. He lived in San Diego, not too far from me. So, you know, we end up exchanging a few texts and I give him my phone number and he literally, his texts were, "Nice day, walk dog." You know, like, you know, he couldn't, he couldn't put two words together. So I'm like, this has to be an AI profile. So this other guy I'm dating is a professor. So he knows there's a, because he wants for his students, he takes the text and you can put it into this thing and see if the AI wrote it. 100% AI wrote his profile. I mean, it was a really good profile. I'm like, there's no way this guy wrote his— if he can't write, you know, how are you, how is your day, what's going on in a text, like, there's no way he wrote this profile. So I feel like it's one thing for someone to give you hints. I do think it's a, you know, to have someone write your whole profile, a little disingenuous. Like, like, I, I— one thing I have found, a lot of people are not real. Like, they get to the text and then it never goes anywhere, or it goes flat, that it does not turn into even a phone call. Because by a phone call, I can tell, like, if I talk to somebody, there's sometimes I can just say, no, I don't think we're a match. But the texting part is just, it, to me, it's, I wish we didn't almost have it. I wish it was just like, like, hi, you know, I like your profile, let's, let's chat or meet.

Wow, I didn't even think about that. I know lots of men get fakes, but I didn't realize that women did as well.

Yeah.

I mean, I wrote my profile for my aunt, a dating profile for my aunt, like 20 years ago or something, at least, maybe longer than that. And she did actually go out with somebody. And what she did say to me is, you make me a lot funnier and sound better than I think I am myself. But I said, no, I think this is you. I said, this is how I see you. And it's hard for you to see what I see in you.

Right, right.

Like, you've got so many lovely qualities. And I think maybe that is a bit challenging for you to be able to express that in the way that I would be able to express it. So sometimes I think I would quite like somebody to write something about me because I'm just curious to know how others see me. I know what I'm— what's going on inside me, but, you know, I'm trying to—

That's fair that you— it's not always so easy to talk about yourself in a good way. And I think a lot of people don't know how to— like, I can't say my profiles are great, but now even when you write the profile, it says, do you want AI to check it and tell you if it's good or not? You know, at least on Hinge they do that. So And you know, it's important, but I think sometimes the profiles are, you know, some guys, I think, and I'm sure it's true of them too, they're like, their profiles are so boring. It's like, is that really who you are? Is it just that you're too lazy to write a good profile or have some— I think getting advice makes sense. I don't know that I like entirely writing it for me.

No, no, but maybe just getting advice. I think that's a good idea. I mean, I've seen, as you, the woman, the shared woman that we both interviewed, she did her brother's profile and then she got to see the women that were matching with him. And I thought, that's what I'm always curious about. It's like, so what are these guys seeing? Are they seeing like a load of really sexy older ladies? Are they just looking for young women? Like, what are they actually seeing? I'm always— because I haven't got a clue what they're seeing. And I don't fancy pretending to be a guy. Anyway, I want to know what's next for you, Karen, for Taboo to Truth. What is next?

So, you did mention online courses. I actually just yesterday launched an adult sex education class called Hotter, Wiser, and Wilder. And, um, it is not a bunch of videos. I talk a lot about— I do have a whole section on understanding what's going on with an aging body, andropause, menopause, libido, about your sexual beliefs. But then I get to the fun part. I talk a bit about communication, and I have some guest speakers who come in and talk about vibrators and lube and fantasy and all kinds of things that you can do to really improve your, your sex life, whether you're solo or partnered. And I also have a module on dating and, and, and profiles and have had a guest help with that as well. So it's a, it's, it's a fun course. It's right now it's 30% off. It's whatever, $100 and something US dollars. And, and for your listeners, I'm happy to make a 50% off coupon just so that they can take a look at it. It's, it was really fun to do because it really gave me perspective. And I've had people look at it and say, like, this is really good. Now, does everyone need the education? No, but you might get a couple of tips here and there. And we all just— the more you know, the better and the more fun it's going to be.

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm not putting down courses. It's just that I can't see myself making $30,000 a month.

You know, I'm not going to make a shit ton of money on it, but it helped really put perspective on everything that I've learned in the last couple of years and things that might be important to people. And I'm, you know, and I'm creating a community with it as well. So that, you know, at least to try to get people who are afraid to, who are lurking because I know they're out there who won't like my posts because they're embarrassed. Maybe they'll come in a private group or, you know, and get some knowledge and ask the questions they're afraid to ask.

Yeah. And I think that that's really important because I know just like my Substack chat is just for private, for paid-for subscribers. And people do ask questions in there of an intimate nature and they don't want everybody to be able to read them. So it is useful to have these private spaces where people can go and ask these questions because there are, like we discussed at the very beginning, some, there are some, unfortunately, some healthcare professionals out there who are not really that comfortable providing advice of this intimate nature to older adults. And therefore they got to seek out people like you or people like me or some of the other people out there that are doing shit.

Exactly. Yes. Yes. And they shouldn't be shy because if you're thinking it, somebody else is too.

Absolutely. That's such a great way to end. Thank you so much, Karen. Have a lovely, lovely day in California.

Great. Thank you. I will, if the sun ever comes out. Sometimes it's London in the morning here.

Well, we're actually getting a few days of summer here, but I'm not holding my breath because The weather report says it's going to rain soon, so yeah. Tra la la.

Great to see you.

Thanks.