Episode 53: The monkey off your back

Hello, I'm Suzanne Noble, and I'm Zoe Noble, and you are listening to Sex Advice for Seniors sponsored by Sunset Satisfaction, our own sex toy shop where you can find lots of fun vibrators and lube and books and butt plugs and all sorts of stuff to enhance your sexual pleasure and find out about areas of your body that maybe you've never even tried to explore before. But you know what? It's never too late to try.

That's right.

That's, that's our motto at Sunset Satisfaction. It's never too late to try. Anyway, give it a shot. We are going to be talking today about— Zoe said, oh my God, this is so depressing, but I don't think it is. It's It's about menopause and the libido. Yeah, putting it out there.

So you're a bit younger than me, Zoe, uh, just a couple years, I think. Um, yeah, so I am 59 and definitely, I, I believe, over the hump, as we say. Um, I, uh, have not had a period in a few years, they say, just in case anybody doesn't know this. And this information is helpful. Um, the, the way to measure whether or not you're in menopause is if you hadn't had a period for a year. Yeah.

So yeah, I can't even remember the last time I had one, which is glorious, frankly. Like, not having periods is probably one of the great things about the menopause, to be honest, I thought. But there was lots of not so great things as well. And yeah, I mean, I remember at the beginning for me, both of us haven't done HRT, so that also informs this conversation because if we were on opposite sides of the HRT fence, so we would probably be telling me that she had this incredibly high libido and every— and everything was like juicy, like 24/7.

I'm not sure if HRT does that. HRT is hormone replacement therapy.

Yeah.

So if you don't know that acronym, that's, that's what we're talking about. And there are, um, Suzanne, you brought up, uh, bioidentical, right? So that's a, that's a, um, not animal-based, right?

Yeah. And, and from what I understand, the people that, I mean, obviously we've got a different medical system here than you do. So everything in your country is like super expensive. But, and, and the NHS isn't necessarily totally up to speed with all of this bioidentical stuff versus animal-based HRT and all of that. But we— you have to take a lot of blood tests, a huge amount of blood tests, and then they look at like all, all your blood work and then they work out an exact formulation for you based on your hormones, where you are right now. And then you have to keep going to see where you are in the process, and that keeps getting adjusted. And from what I hear from my friends who are doing that, it has absolutely saved their life. And for those who are in long-term relationships, I think I can certainly see the smile on husbands' faces when they talk about going on bioidentical hormones or just HRT, they're like, yep, and then we're still doing it. Yeah, well, you could tell that maybe they weren't doing it so often before they made that decision.

Yeah, I, um, so in this country, in the United States, you'd want to go to what we call a functional medicine doctor. Oh, right, right. So it's someone— a functional medicine doctor is someone usually that has a an alternative credential. They're not necessarily medical doctors. Some are, some are medical doctors that practice functional medicine. And what that means is that you're not just treating symptoms. You're actually doing the blood tests and investigating underlying imbalances and causes of not just menopause, but of anything that ails you. So I've, I've seen a functional medicine doctor who actually had me do my genealogy, and then you can order a medical report based on your DNA. Wow. And yeah, and then sort of go from there.

Yeah, here it's in the UK, it's those, the people that do that are actually doctors and they are, they There are some clinics, I think, in— that are part of the National Health Service that will do it, but you have to, like everything else, you have to hunt around for it. Even on the NHS you can get homeopathy because we have a homeopathic hospital. But again, anyone who tries to get alternative anything on the National Health Service usually has to fight for it because of course it's outside of what people would consider to be the usual way of going about things. So my view on all of this is like, if you really want to check out what's available, then you have to make the effort. It's not, it's not automatically going to be assumed that they're going to tell you about any of this stuff. They're just going to— you have to go and dig around and then find out. But, you know, from what I know is that it can, it can keep your libido high, and certainly— or just libido kind of whatever it was at before, it kind of keeps it there. Whereas I know that because I didn't go on HRT, and I did have a very high libido during my 40s, that when I hit my 50s, I felt like I'd sort of like jumped off the libido cliff, and I was somewhere on the bottom scurrying around trying to find it again. And it wasn't— and it was— took me a really long time to get, to get over that, actually, like that it wasn't going to come back in the same way that it had been there before. And I— because it had been such a part of my life that I— yeah, not having it felt a bit like grieving, to be honest. But I, I did get past it. But initially I felt a bit like, oh, this is This is a bit shit. Not having a sex drive kind of is a bit shit, but it moved into something different.

I'd love to hear what your other symptoms were during menopause, or the major symptoms, just for people who are listening who are wondering if this is normal. Does it get better? What's happening? Like, for me, I had hot flashes and I— and the hot flashes weren't so frequent. I would— they'd sort of come in clusters. So I'd have like for a couple of days I'd have maybe 4 or 5 and a hot flash, like just this moment of like, oh my God, I'm so hot. I just need a— I need a fan or something. Like, just like burning up from the inside out a little bit like a fever. Yes. A little bit like when, when, like the onset of a fever. It didn't, I didn't have the achiness, like, you know, like when you're really truly sick and viral. And then, and that I think probably for the better part of a year, I would get those. And then that hasn't really happened very much in a couple years.

And then even during the night, like you don't get it. I still get it when I'm asleep. Like, I still have to throw the covers off me kind of once or twice a night. And just— I have a fan that I sleep with permanently by the side of my bed, and I suspect it's now completely psychosomatic because I just— I'm always throwing the covers off, turning the fan on. I'm a fucking nightmare to sleep with because, you know, I'm just rolling around and throwing covers off and turning the fan on and getting up and taking a piss and It's horrible. Nobody wants to sleep with me. I don't want to sleep with me.

I do have a fan at the side of my bed. What I was going to say is worse than the hot flashes, which have sort of come and gone. Yeah, I, I just run hot all the time. And I used to run cold, like, and love that, you know, I sort of— I don't like being hot. And I'm not very hot. I don't perspire easily even when I'm working out and exercising. I don't perspire very much, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And this has been like, I just, I don't love being hot all the time. No, it's horrible. Yeah.

And, and, and it's like the droplets of sweat down my back and on my chest that suddenly come from nowhere. I don't really get those very much anymore, but I do find that if I've like there's a few things that have definitely improved every symptom of menopause. One was strength training and doing heavy weights and stuff that you can see if you're on video, which we're not, in the back of my studio, heavy kettlebells and all sorts of things like that. And then the other thing was just avoiding spicy foods just generally, which, you know, I love spicy foods, but it's all— it just adds heat to what is already somebody who's hot. So I had to avoid, you know, anything that was going to contribute to more heat. And the third thing was not too much alcohol. I know that if I drink, it's just going to be bad. And I'm not going to get any sleep, which kind of is, is related to alcohol, just generally, but I know that I'm going to probably sweat a bit more, and it's not going to be very pleasant. So all of these things, I still do them, but I know what, what's going going to happen. So I just make a conscious decision, like, am I going to eat those spicy wings? Do I want spicy wings? Yeah, I really want spicy wings today. Do I care that I'm not going to get any sleep? No, I don't. Yeah, I just make that decision, you know. Um, but, but yeah, I mean, I was going out with a 33-year-old guy when I was 50, and that's pretty much when I hit menopause, and— or 51, or around then. And we were having like just crazy good sex before, like a gazillion times a day, and it was really fun. And then I just went, oh no. And I just said to him, sweetie, it's just not fair. I mean, you don't want to— this is just too icky. And I remember him saying to me, how long does this go on for? And I said something like, oh, like 10 years. And Honestly, he just, his face dropped like, 10 years? And I went, yeah, yeah, 10 years. And he went, oh, right, okay. I was like, you know, there's a song called Let Can't We Be Friends. I think that was, that was, that was where we got. Yeah, that was where we got to, was we just became friends. Yeah.

So Suzanne Noble Noble, really, was it 10 years of discomfort or adjustment?

Yeah, kind of. Yeah, it really was. Unfortunately, it really was. But not— not— look, I know a lot of women that when their libido goes off a cliff, I— and I've spoken to loads of women about this— they just say, all right, I'm just not gonna have sex anymore, and I don't care because it wasn't very fun to start with, and I don't have a partner. So I don't care, I'm just going to do something else. I'm just going to get a pet, you know, and plow all my attention into my pets or garden or whatever. And I totally, I totally get that. But I suppose because sex was so important and such an important part of my life, and I could have made that decision without any hesitation whatsoever, but I just didn't want to be that person. So I kind of make a conscious decision that I want to keep having sex, even though if I don't, like, there's nothing. I do get horny, but just not anywhere near what I used to, like, not even close.

Right now, right? Same, same. And I feel that way too, you know. Sex— I've always been a very sexually expressed person. And so then it becomes important to me— less important than it used to, same thing. Um, my biggest concern right now is to keep the, to keep the vaginal tissues moist and soft because they get thin and there's less sensation for me. I don't know about you, but—

oh, totally. Yeah, completely. I mean, the, um, You know, I'm— I, I, I moaned about the high-speed vibrators because I just thought they're going to take my clit off. But actually, but actually, recently I've sort of like gone to them and gone, oh, you're my friend, you're my friend. But I feel a bit bad about that because I feel like, oh, I'm giving in to the— because I know that they do— they're not helping to make my tissues more sensitive. But one thing I have noticed is as long as I have sex once a week, I'm, I'm good to go. And if I, if I don't have sex once a week, then I, then it can be a bit painful, even if I use lube. So I have to be, I have to be really on my guard that I don't go a bit, you know, overboard when I do have it, because then I just, I did, and I wasn't prone to cystitis, but recently I've noticed that I've I've had cystitis, and I'm like, oh, this is another repercussion of this. Yeah, being— not being sexually active, being sexually active, not being sexually active, being sex— it's like I, I almost have to have sex like a robot just so that I don't, um, it doesn't go all horribly thin and painful.

Yeah, yes, exactly. And part of that makes sense because What happens is so, so technically, right, the reason why we have all of these symptoms is because we have a drastic drop in estrogen.

Yeah.

And, and everything rebalances. But basically the estrogen is, is responsible for keeping the, the, the tissues, the vaginal tissues plump and hydrated and lubricated. Right. And so, um, and so, and that's why people take, you know, estrogen cream, um, which, you know, taken, um, on the skin, you know, rub it into your skin, either into the vaginal opening itself, right at the opening, or on your thigh. Or I know some people that put it on their inner wrist.

Yeah.

Where, where the blood vessels are close to the surface. Um, where it gets absorbed. So, um, you know, I think one of the things that I feel helps as well is not just sex with a partner but solo sex with a dildo. Yeah, you know.

Yeah, I mean, I've been thinking about that as well, just like, oh, should I just, you know, because I do, you know, like you said, it's just about keeping that air, you know, having something— if you like penetrative sex, being penetrative. But, you know, there's a woman who runs another sex toy company called Jo Divine, Sam, who's, uh, been a nurse, and she advises a lot of older people. And she herself swears by that estrogen cream internally and said, you know, there is no reason why we have to experience any pain. And these creams, these estrogen creams and stuff, are really good. I haven't tried them, but she swears by them, and so I know that they do work. Similarly, we have to overcome any of this bullshit that we feel about lube, using lube, you know, not being wet enough, all that rubbish, because it's just important. Like, because otherwise, you know, I've gotten little tears. I've noticed that, you know, and it's not like— it's not super bloody, but, you know, not to be gross or anything, but I can see that I've had little tears, right? Yeah, yeah, it's just clear. And then when I have sex, it's fucking painful. So, you know, it— we just have to be really, um, we really have to communicate all of this kind of stuff to our partners and also appreciate what's happening with our own body. Because things do change.

They do change, and it's fine, you know. I mean, this is it, what, you know, it's a Buddhist notion that, um, or I mean, not notion really, it's a Buddhist belief. And he, he observed, he emerged from the Bodhi tree with the information for all of us that, um, suffering is the result. All suffering is the result of wishing things were different than they are. Yeah. You know, so embrace where you are. I mean, I coach this all day long. Just look at your body, love your body, embrace your body, accept where you are, who you are, where you are, and figure out how to work with it.

Yeah. And the thing about that I've noticed, somebody said about the libido, which I thought was a really interesting remark, was they said desire follows arousal in a menopausal woman. And I think— and I thought that was a really good expression because that's what happens to me. It's like I'm not actually like walking around like a horn dog or anything, but, but if somebody starts like getting fruity with me, then I feel my body's like going, ooh, ooh, 'Oh, something's happening,' and then everything starts kicking in. But that was different in my younger days when I would just walk around perpetually wanting to have sex. Now I walk around perpetually not wanting to have sex, or not caring whether I have sex. But if somebody does something to me, or even just some weird kinky shit just happens in front of me then I go, oh, that's kind of exciting, and then I get excited. Yeah, different.

I think that's actually pretty brilliant. I love that. And to be honest with you, I mean, what that's called clinically is responsive desire. So you need to be in the— you know, there's spontaneous desire, which is kind of how we used to be. Not everybody is, but you and I work.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, um, and, and then, um, responsive desire is that you, you feel desire to have sex when you're already engaged in sexual activity. You're responding to what's happening in the moment, and then you decide, you know, you not decide, but you like are in your body is inspired then and drawn to have sex. That's, that's a good reframing for menopause for sure.

And do you think based upon the work that you do with couples and maybe in your own relationship, I know for me that one of the things that I struggle with because of that is that I'm not really great at initiating anymore like I used to be, and I kind of wait now. For someone else to initiate because I need— I kind of almost need them to so that I go like, oh, you're doing something now, that's good, I can do something now. So I don't initiate like I used to initiate a lot more when I was younger, but now I don't. And that's partly as a result of that feeling as well, just not, you know, waiting for somebody else almost to take the lead. So I would also say, you know, I get— we get a lot of people, couples on TikTok that write in and say they haven't had sex with their partner for years that are in their 60s and stuff. And I suspect it's because of the fact that maybe one person always took the lead and now they're a bit like, yeah, I don't want to do that anymore.

Absolutely. And, and it, you know, On so many of these episodes, and when we talk about so many different dynamics in a relationship, um, communication is key. You know, it— what ends up happening is that anything can be worked through. And if you just sort of accept it as it is and communicate about it and figure out how to, you know, a workaround or the new normal or what, what nurtures both people. You know, um, and I, I think that, uh, it's true that, you know, things on the other side of the coin, if you are, if you are a person with a penis and a testosterone-based operating system, testosterone wanes as well. Yeah, you know, so there's, there's lots of stuff to talk about. It's not just that people with vulvas who experience menopause are, um, are you laughing? That's politically correct now because not all women have vulvas.

I know, I know. I mean, it is, I, you know, that it's, it happens on both sides. I, I like, I, you know, that the, the, the upside for me of all of this is that once you actually get to your own new normal, which isn't the same as it was in your 40s or 30s or 20s, and that's where it gets positive again, is once you get to the other side, that you have choices you can make. You can choose— you can choose to be not— to not have sex anymore if you want. You're not having kids anymore, so you don't have to have sex anymore if you don't want. So that's fine. Or you can choose to have sex if you want, and that's fine as well. But you can, you know, But basically, there was somebody, I think it was George Melly, the musician George Melly, who said that his libido was like having a monkey on his back. And I did feel that way through a lot of my 40s, and it was really fucking distracting. So I'm kind of glad that I don't have that anymore because I can just like get on with my life and focus on different things, whereas before there was no opportunity to do that. It was literally a little voice in my head just telling me, 'When, when are you going to get laid next? When are you going to get laid?' Like, you know, and it drove me crazy. So, so once I realized that little voice had gone away, I was okay. I was— I mean, it took a while for me to realize that they were gone for good and they just hadn't gone on a little holiday and they weren't gonna come back and visit, you know, that they'd moved far away to a different country and and I wasn't going to see them very often.

It is true. Here's something else that I, that I feel once I've gotten over the idea that my body doesn't look the way it did when it was, you know, 40. I also, I, that's liberating for me anyway. I just feel like I have different standards. Society has different standards for me. I have a very, I have a husband, we not— he's, he's my second husband, actually third if you count the one that wasn't a legal marriage, but we behaved like spouses. So we'll count my current husband as my third husband. And we've only known— we met in our 50s, and so we've never really known any, any different. And, you know, like all new couples, we were rabid for each other. And, and now— and he's great. Like, he, he, he doesn't, he doesn't have a lot of those, like, his arousal template isn't geared towards porn stars, you know. So he's always been loving and accepting and celebrating all the wobbly bits on my body. But yeah, I mean, I think that there's a freedom now too that I experience that's just sort of like, look, here I am. I'm in my 60s. I had a great run, and now it's all sort of bonus for sure.

Yeah. And I think that's the only way that you can look at it is, is go, what it is now is what it is. I look at my body and, you know, my like different bits and stuff. I mean, I do spend a lot of time on my fitness because I'm single, and that's just like part of being single is that you have to look good. If you want to, if you want to keep having sex. And as a single woman, I mean, I'm, I'm— that's not, you know, totally true. Of course there's somebody out there for everybody, and lots of men like really large women, and lots of men like really small women, and, and all sorts of different women. And same with women that like big men and stuff. But I know that, you know, I want to look good, and I want to have as many— I want to have as many choices as possible. About making sure that I'm, you know, I'm fit and I'm healthy and I do all the stuff I need to do to kind of maintain all of this. But, but mostly that's because I also have, you know, have experienced death and multiple times of my friends, and I just am really sensitive to all of that, and I want to make sure that I'm really super healthy.

So that's Well, that's an— that's another piece. And what I was going to say is it's not so much about your— how you look as how you feel in your body and how you present yourself. And, you know, you've always been a small woman, so there's no reason for that to change, you know, if it doesn't need to. Me, on the other hand, I'm walking around with 20 extra pounds that are really not making me happy.

A year and a half ago, I just got rid of them. You know, I just like, yeah, I just made a decision that I didn't— I wanted to fit into everything in my wardrobe. But also, you know, I know that again, going back to menopause, like, what can I do for myself to maintain my sex drive? One, I can, you know, make sure that I feel like I'm in the best physical condition that I am. That makes me feel good. Two, I can make sure that I eat really well. Three, I can make sure that I You know, I do have regular sex because I want to keep all of that stuff juicy and, you know, and I don't want to be in pain. But these are all choices that I have made. I have personal choices that I've made, and not everybody has to make those choices. I do think that we are quite significantly different from a lot of other people in their 50s and 60s, in that you're in a relationship that started in your 50s. I'm single, and I hear from a lot of people who are in long-term married relationships that, that they've known each other since their 20s and stuff. And it is a bit like slamming into a wall for a lot of these couples when the woman starts going through menopause and a guy's like— he's bouncing along, it's all It's all good. Happy days, happy days, happy days. They've known each other 30 years, it's all been super great and stuff, and then suddenly she feels like shit. He doesn't know what to do about it. He doesn't want to see her unhappy, but she doesn't know what the fuck's going on with her body. It's all like, it's all a shit show. And I think there's— and if you've never talked about your sex life before because it's all been it's all been relatively just like, yeah, just bumbling along, you know, we just have sex twice a week or whatever. Then suddenly when the other person's like, nope, not feeling it tonight or tomorrow or next week either. And oh, by the way, that really hurts now. And like, there's a lot to talk about there. And that is sometimes when people come and see you if they're smart. But that's great. They don't. And they just and they're just really unhappy, you know.

Yeah, well, yes, right. And, and again, look, here's the thing: you don't have to have sex to be happy. It's okay to not have sex and to opt out of sex if you're in a marriage, a long-term, you know, marriage, or a short-term marriage. If you're— if you've got a partner, um, the same partner, and you're— this is who you're going to be having sex with, if you're going to then yeah, you know, it's— there's a great opportunity here. And by the way, talking about sex builds intimacy, so you're growing an emotional connection, which will— which is really what you want, you know, in, in the senior years. Um, to be— to, to be companionship is one of the reasons why we get together, you know. I mean, we had a— we had a Buddhist ceremony, um, because we're both practicing Zen Buddhists. And we had a dear friend of ours speak, and she said, you know, it's interesting, when you're young, you are sort of getting married to live your life together. And when you get married in your 50s, you're essentially getting married to die together. And I don't mean that in a morbid sense. But you know, this is like the third, we're entering into the third chapter of of our, of our lives, you know. And so we're gonna communicate and be close and, and make all the, you know, all the decisions together about how we're going to spend our, our time, what we're going to do with our bodies.

That is an intense and very philosophical way to end. Yeah, but it's true though. I mean, you know, this is the time where that it— stuff, stuff starts happening, menopause being one of them. And I think that the best thing that we all can do, because, you know, one of the things that people have said listening to this, these podcasts, is especially men, like, they just didn't know about this stuff, right? So unless women say, look, this is how I'm feeling, okay, like, this is what I'd really want from you. Like, maybe if you just rub my shoulders or something, just, just, just like start off gentle. You don't like— don't stick it in immediately. Just give me, give me some space to get aroused, to feel close, to have that physical touch. Let's build in a lot more foreplay. Let's build in a lot more hugging and caressing and cuddling and all of the kind of stuff which I know for me that's the stuff that starts getting my juices flowing. Like, it's not just a guy who comes and then goes straight down on me or wants to just like get it straight in there. It's like, I need the buildup now. So, you know, you need to give me the buildup and, and I just take some time, chill out No rush. That's the other thing, of course, is there's no rush anymore. Like, I'm not coming anytime soon, so we can have, we can have a party all day long, right? Yeah, 3 hours, 4 hours, you know, whatever, it's fine. So if you're one of those people who likes a really long, slow afternoon of sex, go out with an old lady. Because they like it slow. They like it slow. There you go.

There you go. That's the moral of the story, just to wrap it up. It is.

So it's been lovely to see you, and have a lovely morning in LA. Yes, likewise.

Bye!