Episode 54: "Nobody Gives you an Orgasm"

Hello, I'm Suzanne Noble, and I'm Zoe Saldana, and you are listening to Sex Advice for Seniors sponsored by Sunset Satisfaction, our very own sex toy company where you can buy all sorts of fun items and books to improve your intimacy with your partner, your friend, or yourself even. Why not? Zoe, what are we talking about today?

Well, something has come up. I mean, this is actually sort of a running theme in my practice with my clients, and I thought it might be interesting to talk with you about it because, um, I think that this is an area of your life that you have really mastered, Suzanne Noble. So I'm going to be leaning into you today to tell us how to be. One of the things that, that comes across in my clients is this idea that our orgasms are something that our partners give us, that our, our partners give us orgasms. Now, you know, on the surface level, that makes sense. They're doing things to our bodies and, you know, that result in, uh, pleasure and then orgasms. But this idea that without a lot more nuance to that sort of idea, what happens is, is that there becomes a tremendous amount of pressure on the person who's giving pleasure. And if you think about, like, you know, what the, the complaint that I hear often is that my partner— I can't have an orgasm with my partner, right? Like, that's a common sort of, like, I can have an orgasm on my own, but I can't have an orgasm with my partner. And that is not the partner's responsibility. I mean, it's frustrating for the partner too. Who, who really is sort of judging their own sexual prowess and sexual identity on, uh, their ability to give their partner orgasms. So there's a whole head trip. It's not good for either partner, and it happens very often with women not being able to orgasm. But it actually, more and more what I see, and maybe it's because of the population that I'm working with, a lot of, a lot of clients who are sort of trying to make a baby, and there's performance anxiety, and sex becomes, um, a sort of— has a different purpose than just pleasure and intimacy. But, um, but there's a lot of that, and a lot of, like, you know, women who come to me when their men can't— aren't having orgasms or aren't ejaculating, and they feel like they're doing something wrong. And I actually had a, a couple come to me. I'm working with them individually for a while.

He—

they have a really solid marriage in every way that you would imagine, except for he has absolutely no desire for sex with her at all. And so, you know, we have to dig deep for that one. But one of the sort of belief systems, the self-limiting belief systems, to borrow from Anthony Robbins, um, is that, you know, he said she should be able to figure out what I need and give it to me. And I, I was like, wow, okay, well, that's good news for me as a clinician because then I get, you know, that's a clear piece of, that's a hurdle that we need to like really get over here. Um, it gives me something to, to wrap my hands around and work with. But, you know, Suzanne, I can't imagine that you are someone who goes into a sexual encounter with someone and, um, and says, okay, have at it, see if you can make me come. Well, maybe you do, but it comes from a different place.

No, and if anything, as soon as I hear those words— and often the first sign of a person who who thinks that that's his belief system is based around his prowess and his ability to make me come, the first thing I do is, is cut that one off at the pass, right? Because I— it's like, before, before we've even met. So one of the advantages, of course, of not being in a long-term relationship and starting out afresh is that you can cut that stuff off at the pass immediately. So when you're— especially if you're on a site where it's mainly about meeting up for some form of intimacy. As soon as a man says, here's what I'm gonna do for you, and he gives you this menu of stuff that he's fantasized about, which I think primarily is to drive his own arousal, frankly. It's not— this, this stuff is nothing to do with me whatsoever. It's just the stuff that goes on in his head, and he just wants to put it down and probably while he's doing that, he's got his dick in his hand. And, you know, on the phone you're talking about it, or texting or whatever, or mainly writing it down.

Yeah.

And I just say, look, firstly, I haven't even met you, so I don't know what's gonna happen, but I suspect all of this stuff that you've just told me is probably not going to happen. And secondly, I have to say to you that nobody gives me an orgasm. That's just like— so we need to stop that one right away, because if you think that's you know, if that's your belief system, then we just need to stop that. Because for me, and I know I've got a friend, we had this conversation about the incredible pressure that women feel when men say that. I don't think that men— most, a lot of men that, that don't fully understand the mechanics that goes into having an orgasm fully appreciate how it's not just a case of rubbing it over a period of time and it will miraculously do its thing, which often with guys, you know, they've told me when they, when they, when they get one out, sometimes it is just literally a mechanical function where they just do that and they're not focusing on anything too particular and it just happens. But I know for themselves, for themselves Yeah, so I know for me, like, you know, when I'm engaging in solo sex or when I'm with somebody else, there has to be— there's a whole bunch of stuff that goes on in my brain which is telling what's going on downstairs that I'm very excited right now and that this is getting super fun and super exciting. And but they can do one thing and it goes like, oh, that's not good. Yeah, yeah. And then all bets are off and I'm not coming. So that's the end of it. Plus, of course, you know, I'm not, I'm not alone in that. I, I need to feel a certain degree of comfort in the situation that I'm in. And I, if I'm not comfortable, then I'm not coming either. So, you know, I think there's, there's so much that As soon as you hear those words, I want to make you come, baby, you think, oh no, I feel a lot of pressure now. And I didn't know whether— I mean, I'm stressed at the moment. I don't— I wasn't even thinking about that stuff. And because I feel more it's for their own, as you said, it's for their own sense of masculinity, feeling like they've achieved something. In that very alpha way, look, I've given her an orgasm, how awesome am I? So it's always for me, it's not really, I have to kind of go, you know, it's not about you, it's about me allowing my body to have an orgasm and whether I do or not doesn't mean I love or care for you any less or think you're any less hot than I did when we started all this. It's just that I just can't be asked today.

Well, yes, of course. And it's okay for, for people with penises not to be able to have an erection or have an orgasm. Or, I mean, it's not— it doesn't— we take things so personally. And, you know, truly, you know, I feel for men because they are, for the most part, what we hear speaking is that what they've been taught through pornography mostly, or through, you know, cultural narratives, or talking with the guys. Although men talk about sex with each, you know, to each other, um, I think much less than we think they do.

Um, you know, locker room, talk about the intimate— they don't talk about they may go like— oh God, she was super hot!

Yeah, they're not sharing techniques like I had this woman and she showed me this trick and I just want to share it with you in service of women's pleasure. That's not the conversation that they're having woefully if only right? If yeah but like Susan noble one of those things so I'm inviting people here listeners If you are someone who is inclined to say, oh baby, I'm going to make you come. How, how about you switch that out to, oh, I really want to make you feel really good. I want, I want, I want you to feel so good when we're together. And I have some ideas and I want to hear what you like. And right, like, yeah, what do you like? Do you like it hard? Do you like it soft? Do you like a A lot of tongue? Do you like a little tongue? Do you want a finger with the tongue? Do you want 3 fingers with the tongue? What do you like? Tell me everything. Yeah, yeah, let me make you feel good. But instead, it's like, you know, a notch on the bedpost kind of thing.

And let's face it, I think as well, for a lot of women, even though they might not verbalize their desire to make a man come, that because it's always expected, mainly again through pornography, that men do come, that when a guy doesn't come, then, you know, I know sometimes I felt like I didn't do my job. You know, it wasn't— it's partly my job to make sure that, you know, I'm doing all the right things as well. So I also need to hear sometimes, do you know, I'm, I, I've, I'm not gonna come today. And it's okay. Like, it's okay. Oh, it's also okay. And I think one of the things about the joy for me about being an older person is that because men are older, men are typically not like repeaters, you know, they don't, they can't repeat quickly after having an orgasm. So Some men that I've been with, they, you know, we may play around for hours on and off, go have some lunch, come back to bed, go and do this, come back to bed, do this, do that. So there's no, like, there's no goal in any of this. It's just, as you said, I just want to make you have, you know, as much juicy fun as you, as you can. That's it.

Yeah.

Not—

well, one thing is for sure, that if you are— the harder you chase an orgasm, the less likely it is that you're going to have it. And that's for, that's for anybody, no matter what body parts you have, you know.

Yeah.

Um, I, I love what you said about your brain and what's happening in your brain and the context that your brain sets for you, right?

Yeah.

And I've heard it said that the brain is the biggest sex organ. And it's true to some extent. I mean, and, you know, when you look at it one way, you know, and I often say like the work that I do is two parts. One is the way we think about sex and one is the way we feel when we have sex. So when you how you think about sex is, is super important. And I think it would be so interesting if when we meet somebody to talk about, like, what is it that goes on in your head when you have sex? Like, what ideas about sex really turn you on? Of course, what are the potential pitfalls with that?

Well, yeah, I mean, that they don't correlate, and that's with what's actually happening. Yeah, although, you know, look, we all know that people fantasize during sex, oftentimes about not— about being with somebody completely different. Like, I don't know, how bad is that? I, you know, I mean, I've— I know that people often fantasize, and people have told me that sometimes they've been involved with their partner and talked about, oh, you know, just imagine if there was another person in the room with us. And think about what that would be like. Oh, and, and if it was another guy and he had his cock here and blah, blah, blah, and how— and you can just— and all of that stuff's going on in your head. There's not another person there. There's nobody there. But you're imagining in your head there might be a person there, and you're being encouraged to play out that scenario together, which removes the fear if there was somebody there for potentially. Yeah. And so you're both fantasizing about something that's not actually really happening, you know. It's just— it's—

well, I'm—

it's just something that you're playing around with, role-playing, having fun. I mean, God, I've done some— I've, I've had conversations with people that while I'm having sex that are just like, they're just absurd, frankly. Like calling somebody my daddy who's like 10 years younger than me because I just felt like it. Yeah. And he doesn't look anything like my daddy, by the way. Right. But it was, but in my head, it's, it's, it was really hot.

So yeah, I mean, well, I look, we don't give each other, I mean, all of that, there's so much shame attached to fantasy and And look, I work with a population of people. One of the sort of things that I specialize in is helping recovered sex addicts and their betrayed partners reintegrate healthy sex after their relationship is healed. It's a lot of work, and these couples are in incredibly tender places. And I have so much sort of, as, you know, from a high level, watching the the hard work that these couples do to restore trust and safety and, and then finally eroticism. Super hard. Really hard. And for some of them, the other parts of their, of their relationship is just so beautiful and wonderful. Like it's, you know, there's a lot of like, why would you stay with that person? Well, because we've built a life together. You know, we have We have a family together. We have, you know, investments and a whole huge empire of a life together, you know, and, and, and we're so aligned on so many things.

Yeah.

So what happens though is that when, when sex has been problematic and sometimes in other, with other kinds of clients on other kinds of journeys and challenges, um, It's really scary to think of your partner fantasizing about someone other than you when you're having sex with them.

Yeah.

And that is, you know, look, it's really hard. But one of the things that, that is that I work with therapeutically with some people is to actually share those fantasies. Like, the fantasy isn't so harmful if it's transparent and out in the open. And listen, maybe you don't share the fantasy that you're sleeping with somebody completely different than— maybe it's like you said, inviting someone in, or being in a, you know, being in a public place, or, you know, all of that. That would be, you know, that wouldn't be threatening. That would be more inclusive in an invitation. But that's—

I mean, I don't, you know, I don't typically fantasize about other people, but I've You know, like I say, I, I think it's kind of— it's fine to pretend that you're in, you know, you're— you could be in a teacher-student relationship, you know.

I have a whole film crew in my imagination on call to come every time my husband and I have sex. They're standing around filming us in my head.

Well, that's so funny because a friend of mine once, we were talking about, um, what you think about when you masturbate, and I was like, you know, mine's fairly predictable stuff about things that are mainly just things I've done actually that were just horny. And because some of the things I've done are a bit extreme, and they were horny. And, um, but she said to me, oh God, she said, I've got a whole film that I play out in my head. There's a soldier, he's on a horse, there's a war going on, I'm being— I'm there, they're, they're galloping across the country, I'm all the way on the other side. Um, like, they're kind of fires and storms and things, loads of barriers put in his way and everything. And she's like, do you have any idea how long this takes? She says, it takes so long, this movie that I've, that I've created in my head, this movie, this— it's like a full-length feature with the director. It's like the director's cut, you know. It's— this goes on, it goes on forever. She's like, I can't even orgasm anymore because I just keep layering this with more and more complex storylines until the point where I'm so fucking bored myself of it. It's like, come on, get to me already. Like, you know, you've already crossed the country and you've saved numerous people. It's time to get to me already. But yeah, she's like, I'm bored out of my skull with it. I'm so bored. So yeah, I try to make mine quick. Shorts, little shorts. Yeah, just little, little shorts, really. Um, try to get to the action as quickly as possible. But yeah, I mean, I think there's, you know, there's a— there's different degrees of fantasy. And I think also that going, going back to the pressure that we put on others, um, there's, you know, there's things that you can say in bed that that if you, if you want, you know, and that's the whole thing as well about fantasy, right, is if you want to feel more— for me, if you want to take control, quote, in loose quotes, of my orgasm, then the best way to participate more in that experience and give you more sense of control is just start laying out the fantasy for me. Because you want— the more you can get inside my head, the more you are going to actually seriously be able to not determine exactly when I orgasm, because that's still up to me. Yeah, but you are certainly going to lay the groundwork for that to all happen, you know. Tell me, just like, just, just get me aroused, get me thinking about stuff, you know, like juice me up before we meet, just tell me sexy things, like just tell me a bit of what you think you'd like to happen without going into too much detail, of course. And yeah, I mean, I had one person on the BDSM scene— God, he was so good at that. I mean, honestly, like, as soon as he walked into the room, I was practically on my knees because he was just really, really, really good at at, at tweaking all those little buttons in my head. And yeah, not everybody can do that.

Well, how about if, you know, how about if you're conversing with someone and you want to get in their head? What if you asked somebody early on, um, how do you like to feel when you have sex?

Yeah.

What if somebody asked you that, Suzanne, and someone said like, how do you, what do you like to, how do you like to feel when you have sex? Could they then extract from that, from your answer, start to build on a fantasy and a context and, and sort of reach you that way?

Definitely. And I've often said to people like, my thing is I'm just, I'm really into the tease. So I just want— everything is just about, just about a certain degree of tension. I quite like a bit of tension. Like, I don't like the hard pounding thing. I like— I, I remember once, years and years ago, um, when somebody went down on me and they stopped, and then they kind of stopped for a little while, and then they start again. And I remember I just came through the through this waiting, like, when's— well, what's he gonna carry on doing? I was so good, and I could— and I was literally feeling this. I'm sure he wasn't thinking any of that, but in my head I had constructed this whole thing that he was holding out and kind of keeping me on the edge, and it was just really like— drove me a bit like, whoa, it's Yeah. And then, yeah. So yeah, I like, I like, and I always tell that to people. I'm, I just say, look, I'm pretty easy to understand. You just have to understand, just don't, I, I want you to keep, just keep holding off a little and teasing me.

Yeah.

And then I get really excited about that and that, and I, and I have, um, yeah, that's my In almost— in fact, when I think back to almost every more recent time that I've been with somebody, once they, once they've worked out that little button, I'm very easy to please.

Yeah, well, and, and so that's, that's another piece of it, is that we all owe ourselves and our future partners, our current or future partners, um the self-awareness to be able to discern what you need. Like, you know, you need to get in my head, which I think is actually— I think that's true for everybody.

Everybody.

Yeah. But, but like to be able to either through masturbation, self-pleasure, self-exploration, or just sort of the awareness in the moment through lovers and lovemaking, like, you know, what you like. And be able to communicate that, you know, certainly be able to— sometimes it's putting it into words, sometimes it's nonverbal communication, sometimes it's like, you know, a twist of the hip, or I really like— I get to feel how I want to feel if I'm on top, you know. And also, by the way, when I'm on top of you, if you reach up and touch my breasts or do X, Y, or Z, it's really gonna like push me over the edge. Like, how valuable is that? But the receiving partner needs to be able to take that information without taking it as a criticism, right? We're so— because we have this belief system that if my partner has to give me information, if I don't already magically know what they want, then it's Like, you know, I mean, come on. It's like a man asking for directions at the gas station.

But I mean, this was something I only discovered when I left my marriage, was that everybody that I've ever been with and I've just shared what it is I enjoy, they're so grateful. They're literally so grateful. And I didn't know about this in my marriage because like you've just said, I just assumed that they might take it the wrong, you know, we might. Take it the wrong way. He might think he was inadequate. He might do this, he might do that. And one of the advantages of starting out again was that I had and met some people who were like, asked me, hey, what do you like? What do you like to, how do you like to do this? What do you, do you like it hard? Do you like it soft? Do you like this? Do you like that? And then I went, oh wow, you know what? No one's ever asked me these questions before. And now I get to determine how to enjoy sex in a way that I will enjoy it instead of being the recipient of someone else's stuff. I mean, of course, that's always the big challenge for me now, is like, I do like stuff a certain way, and it doesn't mean that I don't like stuff other people's way as well, right? But it's not going to lead to an orgasm. That's—

and that's okay too. It's that, you know, but, but then, but then don't put pressure on me and don't take it personally.

No, it's like if you like having sex really hard, for instance, or doing stuff, and that's not— and that's not like really my thing, then I will do that because I want to, you know, I, I'm, I'm also a pleasure.

I'm a giver.

I'm a giver, and I want you to be happy and, and, and all that. But I also know, you know, at some point we have to get around to my pleasure and what I want.

Yeah.

And so it has to be reciprocal in that way. But I do think it's always easier— it's, you know, and I'm always coming back to this— is like, for me, the difficulty always is in these long-term relationships where the pattern has been established, and then you have to unpick it and work out it like you do in your job. What is this about for you, and why is this so threatening? What, what would make it less threatening for you if, if you were to just have a conversation about what it is that you both enjoy without the expectation of an orgasm at the end of it? You know, what would it take to get to that, settle into that place where that wasn't the always the end game, um, right, you know. But that can be a big thing for people if they've been brought up through pornography and other things, I suspect, to think that, well, what's, what's the point then, right?

That's right. So the, so the, so the, the, so the takeaway from all of this The takeaway from all of this is stop thinking about, you know, your, your self. Yeah. Well, stop thinking about your partner's pleasure, your partner's pleasure, your partner's orgasm and pleasure and experience having sex with you as, as about you. You know, as a, as a measure of your worth.

Yeah.

This isn't about how good a lover you can be. And these— and, and it's not about technique. It's less about technique than it is about the dynamic. Yeah, right.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, you need to know what you're doing, but also, I don't know, I've— I, I often— I always don't know what how women, for instance, who don't masturbate and haven't— and, and can't express what they want when they don't know what they want themselves, or they haven't— you know, we have to learn about our own bodies first to learn about—

I call that master your instrument. The chapter in my, in my book is Master Your Instrument, and, and that's really what it is. It's like, I've got, I've got— I'm walking around in this body this pleasure machine. Yeah, how does it work?

Exactly. So we have to know that to start with, and then we can share with others the things that we like. And I mean, I do, you know, I used to read a lot of erotica, and that also did inform things that I started to think about as, as possibilities. So I do think like expanding our lexicon of pleasure and being able to think about— because I do think we, a lot of people, are quite limited in what they understand to mean pleasure. And we, the more we can expand our lexicon of pleasure, the more we can start to have a very full and interesting sexual life, both for ourselves and with other people. Um, so I do think like reading about it, reading books like yours, reading erotica, just get, get, you know, this is stuff you have to learn. Like, I don't become— you don't become, um, expert or, or feel comfortable about any of this unless you learn about it. It doesn't just— people, just because it's our bodies doesn't mean it just kind of happens. You still have to understand how it all works. And yeah, you know, I know I, I've met people and they— I remember once going to a club with a woman who was, um, and some guy came up and said he wanted to like, you know, lick her feet or something. And she just said, oh, I don't know, I don't really get that, what's that all about? And then she said, but you know, I've never tried it, lick my shoe. It was like lick her shoes or something. And it was a dom, femdom club, and he did, and she was just, she just sat there and she went, oh my God, it was unbelievable. She literally was sitting there going, I can't believe I've never experienced that before. That was absolutely unbelievable. She thought it was so sensuous. It was so, it was just, there was something about it that just like really turned her on. She just went Wow. She's like, and it wasn't even wearing sexy shoes. It was just like normal shoes. And he just got really into it and she just went, whoa. So you can learn something new at any age. There's no, there's no age that, that you just can't learn or experience new things.

Yes. I love it. There you go.

There you go. That's our, that's our conclusion for this week. We have introduced a little subscription opportunity on the podcast. It's completely voluntary, but you know, Zoe and I put some work into this and we would welcome any contribution you can make, no matter how big or how small. And I'll leave you with that little thought. Goodbye, Zoe. Have a lovely day.

You too, Suzanne Noble.