Episode 55: What's Ethical Non-Monogamy?

Hello, I'm Suzanne Noble, and I'm Zoe Noble, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors that's sponsored once again by SunsetSatisfaction.com, the lovely toy shop that we've created to fill your life with pleasure pleasure. And also, I would like to add this week that I am doing a little bit of an experiment, Zoe, whereby people will have access to our podcasts, the latest podcast, for 2 weeks. And if they would like to hear any of the, um, episodes from beyond 2 weeks, there will be a small charge that is roughly the equivalent of an expensive cup of coffee in London or a very cheap and nasty glass of wine.

A month.

A month.

A month. Suzanne Noble. I can promise you that we are a much better value than a very expensive cup of coffee, and we're much more delightful than a cheap glass of wine.

Exactly. So I thought, you know what, it takes up my time, it takes up your time, and Also, there's some running costs in doing this, and I would like to see if there are some people out there that have been listening, writing in, loving us, that would also be willing to extend their gratitude to a very cheap glass of wine that's a lot more delightful. So anyway, there you go. That's— I'm just putting that one out there, folks. You'll see a subscription button on the site. And yeah, I don't think it's going to allow us to retire anytime soon, but it might just mean that you know, uh, the costs are covered, so that would be good. Anyway, today I thought we could talk about ethical non-monogamy, or ENM, as you may see the initials being used on some very cool dating apps like Feeld. And also just this whole aspect of being an older person and being suddenly in this world where we have some choices about how we want to carry on with relationships, if we want to be in relationships, or if we just want to have sex, or whatever we want to do. We have some choices around that, and I have some opinions on that.

Yeah, I, I wonder if you, um, if we should start for people who may or may not really know what ethical non-monogamy really is. Like, how does it look, and, and what is that? Like, How do I live that life?

Right.

Yeah. So ethical non-monogamy is really— it's an umbrella term that any sort of non-traditional monogamous relationship falls under. And the thing that makes it ethical is that you are open and honest and transparent. Nobody's, you know, having— going outside of the relationship covertly. Secretly, right?

Absolutely. And what makes it different as well is that you can choose how you want that openness to look like. So you— the openness may look like, I want to know everything, or the openness may look like, just tell me when I'm going out, when you're going out, and if you'll be back, and then tonight, because I'm not going to have dinner ready for you if you think I'm not going to be home. But aside from that, I don't want to know too much. You know, some people are like that. They want to know a little but not too much. Some people want to know a lot. You know, sometimes I struggle a bit with that myself. Um, how much do you tell somebody and how much do you keep secret? Well, not secret, but you know, just how much do they need to know?

Yeah, I think, um, for me, I, I Well, I think there are a couple things. Ethical non-monogamy refers to a couple that has a primary relationship, and sometimes you see that happen when, when you've been married for a while or partnered for a while. Doesn't have to be a legal marriage, but you've been in a monogamous, committed relationship for a while and you mutually agree that you're going to open it up. And that can look like a lot of different things. You can, you can invite a third to join you as a couple. You can, or, you know, a third or a third, fourth, and fifth. You can also decide that you're going to go outside the relationship and each, you know, sometimes it's one partner. Sometimes what I see not infrequently is that a woman and a man are together for a long time, and the woman entered into the relationship knowing she was bisexual and wants to now explore having sex with women. And so sometimes there's a capacity in the relationship to be able to do that, um, or, you know, the— or vice versa. I just— it's a— at least in, in this country, and I'm imagining also in Europe, that Um, there's just much greater permission for women to explore bisexuality than men. There's a bias there, I think.

Um, yeah, I think that's true. I think that's typically true. And I think also that people find those same-sex relationships, if they're in heteronormative relationships, a lot easier to understand because they feel different. You know, they feel like there is something that the other person has that you can't you don't have, so it doesn't feel so threatening. Whereas if a woman decides that she wants to go and explore having sex with lots of other men, that can be quite threatening if you're in a heteronormative relationship. And equally, if a man says, I want to bring another woman in, and the woman is not bisexual, it's like, well, what, you know, we're sharing you, what does that look like? And I know that the times that I've just gone on dates with guys who are in those relationships, especially if it's very early days, often it's the woman who's the one who's taken the initiative because of exactly what you've said. She's— she wants to explore bisexuality, or she you know, she wants to go outside the relationship. And the guy, in my experience anyway, and the guy goes on the apps and things and thinks, okay, I'll go and see what I can find out there. But of course, it's a lot easier for women to find partners just generally than it is for men. So generally, the people that I know that are doing this kind of stuff, the woman is having a blast, the man is trying to have a blast but often not succeeding. Then when he does go and find somebody potentially to have fun with— this is what happened on one of my dates— the other person, because he hadn't really done that before, suddenly went, 'Oh right, well, this is what it's like,' because up until that point she thought it was all about her having fun. And then when it was somebody else, you know, her significant other She suddenly found herself feeling a little bit threatened by that, I suspect. And so it all got a bit messy, and I didn't actually end up doing anything with that guy because I just found myself not wanting to get in the middle of, of their situation. And so I just went, I'm just going to take myself out of this. I don't really need this kind of level of complication, you know. Yeah. But there are clearly people I know who are negotiating this, trying to negotiate it. And I think it requires such a high degree of communication. It's just too much for me.

I, you know, the way I sort of talk to people about this and in, you know, in my work in the world and in my practice is that there's no one right way, you know. There's a— and there are challenges to monogamy and there are challenges to non-monogamy, you know. It's sort of, um, it's just what do you sort of want to deal with? The, the, the, the monotony of, of monogamy or, or the annoying, um, sort of emotional landscape of non-monogamy. Um, the other thing though that I want to sort of say is that, and, and maybe this is, I mean, one of the questions I have for you is, you know, all about your deep, deep, uh, you know, feelings about, um, about your lifestyle and Whether or not, I mean, I kind of want to get clear with people as an option, and maybe the, your listeners really know this because you've been, they've been with you for a long time, but, um, do you not, are you not looking for a primary relationship? And, and that's another aspect. It's another style of non-monogamy is like not that open not a primary relationship that then gets opened up or starts open, but there's like, you know, you have your person and you're checking in. So I know people who have a pod, right? And, and so then there's that aspect. And I also know people, and I lived this way for a long time, I just called it single and maybe it is single, but I was not monogamous and not wanting to be monogamous. So when I would engage with men, for a period of like 12 years in my 40s and early 50s until I met my husband. I would just say like, I'm, you know, I'm available, but I'm not available for a committed relationship.

Yeah, I think that's pretty much the conclusion that I've reached. And I was away this weekend with a bunch of women, mainly women, celebrating this 10-year anniversary of a couple who have been living very far apart but are together for 10 years. They live a 6-hour drive away from each other.

And I love that. That's for me.

I mean, yeah, for me, I, well, I can't drive that far because I just fall asleep on the motorway and then I would kill myself. So that's not really an option. But, but I could respect their choice of doing that and, and the independence that they each have to live their lives. In that, in the way that they like, and seeing their own friends and having one in the nature and one's in the city. So, you know, they get the best of both worlds. I get all of that. But for me, one of the things that we were discussing in the car on the way back with this group of women was about the fact that they just didn't want to end up with somebody that they were going to have to look after. And they recognize that as we age, that's definitely something that you got to take on board. And one of them was looking after her elderly mother, which was a very full-time job— woman in her late 80s. I mean, really full-on. She doesn't really feel she's got room in her life for anybody else but looking after her mother. Um, and the other ones were just about the disappointment that they've experienced in relationships, where even if they weren't looking after the man in physical sense felt like a lot of the responsibility for being a social secretary was being placed upon them for planning activities and for just generally introducing them to a world of friends and people, because often these older men didn't have large social circles. And I certainly know that type of relationship because I have found myself in it more than once. And so I know that I tend to attract people who look at my big group of friends and just think, I get her and I get her stable family and I get a big group of friends. Yeah, I'll have that. Well, you know what? That's not really on offer. I don't really, I don't really want to do that anymore. So I suppose the choice I've made is if, until, or if, or when, or if never, I find a man who is capable of looking after himself with his own group of friends and an active social life that doesn't have to always involve me, then my current choice is I would rather just have casual relationships with men where we can just have fun together and then we can go our separate ways. And that's it. Because I haven't found a way of having a satisfactory relationship that worked for me.

Yeah, I actually was you. Yeah, for a very long time. And I really loved that lifestyle. I loved living that way. And I actually really like in my head, I would think, oh, maybe someone will come along and all, and it'll be someone that I want to be with, you know, long term. And I was concerned as I age also, like how fuckable I'm gonna continue to be. Yeah, yeah, frankly. Um, when you're, when you're married, like, you know, they're stuck with you, and so they'll—

I mean, that's part of, that's part of being a single woman is, is, um, if you want to be fuckable, is to keep doing all the things that makes you fuckable, right? I mean, it's, I mean, it's a bit of maintenance, but it's no more maintenance than I would want to do anyway as to age in a healthy way. So, right, right, you know, I still wear red lipstick no matter what, what the situation. Like, I wake up and my personal trainer sees me at 9 o'clock in the morning with red lipstick, like I'm just— and I'm not interested in fucking him, so sorry about that.

Okay, so Um, so thanks for sharing all of that. What happened with me actually was that I ended up meeting this guy and I, and I was so resistant, but I mean, he, we laugh now that I had one foot out the door for 6 months and, and truly like I, I was saying things, you know, in the beginning, like it's too bad this isn't my guy because I really like him. Like he's very cool, you know, and. And finally I was like, all right, I guess I just didn't want my guy, you know. Yeah, but he really was— he was so great that I just thought— I mean, at some point I just surrendered. I'm like— and he really wanted a partner. He wanted— he lost his wife, you know, 10 years, 9 years before I met him.

Yeah.

Uh, and lost— she had, uh, she, she passed away and he really wanted a companion. He wanted another love, you know. And so he said to me at one point, I'm rooting for you, you know, this is your audition, I'm rooting for you, I really hope you get the job. But, you know, I, I have— I'm— I know what I want, and if you don't want that, then at some point I'm gonna move on. And then it got to that point and I said, okay, wait a minute, wait a minute, don't go anywhere.

But I think, you know, we can't— it sounds to me like there's always in the back of your mind, I suspect, as a woman, there's always a little inkling of what— is there somebody that's that guy, the right— that right guy, right?

Yeah.

And I— but I don't I've kind of accepted the fact now that whilst that's a really great idea, and maybe there is that great guy, I don't know, but maybe there's not. And if there's not, I'm not going to spend the rest of my life pining after something that's just not going to happen, right? If it— if that person comes along, then that's great. But in the meantime, I am very, very, very clear with people that I'm not monogamous. I'm not with anybody. There are a few people that are around, one maybe a bit more regular now than the others, but he's also with other people, so that's okay. And I'm— and I always feel very, very settled when I'm in this place. That's what I notice about myself, is I have to I have to kind of squash the little voice that's always going, "Oh, but maybe there's a guy out there that's good for you." No, because I'm always so happy when I'm just doing what I want, just like this. I'm so happy. And I have to keep reminding myself, "Look how happy you are." Because the reason why the little voice keeps talking to me is because society keeps telling me that this is not the appropriate way for a 62-year-old woman to live her life. There's got to be something wrong with me. I'm dysfunctional in some way. I'm an avoidant. I'm some other bullshit term. But I just think maybe there isn't anything wrong with me. Maybe this is just it.

I, um, I think you have it right, you know. That's a cultural narrative that doesn't need to exist and doesn't exist in many cultures, you know. There— we're all human beings. We all have the same body parts. We all have the same brains. We all have the same hormones. And the rest is social structure, you know, social constructs and these agreements that we make. And and, and not even just agreements that we make. There's that as well, but there's, there are systems that we have to operate within.

And so, you know, um, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, as I said to you when we were talking about this before, what I discovered though about being this person in this way, feeling happy about this, is that obviously there's a lot of people now, older people, that are exploring these lifestyle choices and while still being very, very in the headspace of the right thing to do for me should be to go and look for a long-term partner, right? Because that's what they know. A lot of these, you know, a lot of people I meet have been married 20 years, 25 years, whatever, They emerge from these relationships. They get on some of these alternative lifestyle apps. They start dipping their toe in the waters of non-monogamy, swinging, fetish, BDSM, whatever it happens to be, right? And they're really curious. They want to explore. And often they bump into me because I'm kind of wandering around. I'm bumbling around in this, right? And they bump into me and they think, God, she seems kind of cool. Let's hang out together, right? Let's hang out. And I take them to some places and I'm doing all the things that they've thought about maybe, but they've never done before. So I'm like this, you know, I'm kind of opening their eyes to all of this stuff. The problem often arises for me is that I'm thinking, oh yeah, this is really fun. We're having a really good time. I'm really enjoying this. And then the next thing I know, they found somebody who wants that stable relationship, hit everything that they are familiar with, everything that, that gets them right back in the old comfort zone of their 25-year marriage or whatever, but with all the freshness of a new relationship. And the first person that gets dumped, it's me. Yeah, every time. So I kind of get a bit angry about all of that because I'm like, I'm not a fucking toy, you know. I mean, I have a I have a heart and a brain and, you know, and you need to treat me like a human being. And often I don't feel I am being treated like a human being because they've never met somebody that does what I do.

Yeah, well, and there's also, there's an aspect of all of this that's kind of like, makes me want to ask you, so what exactly is your What are you— what are your requirements and what are your boundaries? Like, are we talking about— certainly if you're non-monogamous, are you— is your expectation that you have ongoing relationships for multiple times? And if so, there's what I think I hear you saying is Regardless of whether you're the only person I'm having sex with, I'm having sex with you multiple times on an ongoing basis. There is an emotional component, even if there isn't a possessiveness or an attachment, or I want to be exclusive with you and I don't want you to have sex with anybody else anymore. There's still a, an emotional component that needs to be properly addressed and completed or Right, exactly.

No, exactly. I mean, my ideal situation is just like 3 people or whatever that I just have an ongoing thing with. I have that for a significant period of time in it. In my 40s, I really liked it. I got to know them. There wasn't the drama of a one-on-one relationship. We had a good time. We became friends. We didn't go and do like art galleries and stuff, you know. Well, maybe some of them I did sometimes, I don't know. I mean, I don't put like super, you know, there's not like the highest walls up around this. But all I ask is that if we've had sex a number of times and it's just not a one-off thing— if it's a one-off thing, you can go and do what you want, I don't care. But if it's a few times, I think I'm owed something that's more than a that was fun, goodbye, my apologies text message.

Yeah, yeah.

Which is what I've sometimes had, you know. Just, just let me know where I am with stuff, because I am cool about— if you want to go find the love of your life and you think you found them, brilliant, you go off and do that, you know. I'm not going to stop you.

But, uh, but, uh, yeah, but a, a sort of resp— Respectful. Yeah, like, like present sensitive communication around that.

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So if you— so, so if, if, if anybody listening is thinking of dumping me now or anybody, anybody, anybody, you know, if you've been, if you've been showing up in a certain way in someone's life for, you know, repeatedly, for no matter what, you know, like whether it's a sexual relationship or not, and you're gonna not be contacting them anymore, pick up the phone and have a conversation, or, or, you know, go over and sit down on the sofa and have a cup of tea and, and discuss openly what's happening for you.

Yeah, for sure. And I, and I suspect that the, that for many older people that I meet, because these relationships fall so far outside what they know about and have any experience of, they don't know how to close them off. They don't know how to end them. They just kind of go, "Ooh, ooh, ooh, I'm gonna freak out now. Oh, I'm just gonna," you know. But equally, what often happens, of course, is that They dip their toe in back into monogamy land or vanilla land or whatever, and then 6 months later what happens, or a year later, is they pick up the phone and they call you. They're like, oh hey, this has happened to me again, like, oh, you know, I treated you really bad, I was so shitty to you, I should have been nicer, and I would really like to see you, and I think Well, no, you blew that one up. You blew that chance.

Yeah.

You know, like if you want to keep the door open, then you have to be nice.

Yeah. Right. I'm going to go do this. I'm going to explore this for a while. I've had those conversations with people on the receiving and the giving end. I met somebody, then I'm going to focus there and explore on that. And, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll, if it doesn't work out and I'll get back in touch and if you're open, then we'll, you know, meanwhile, see you around.

Exactly.

Good luck.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I just think with, with our age comes a certain level of, and well, any age really, but does come a certain level of responsibility to just be nice, be You know, be honest, be open. And that, you know, that applies especially if you are in an ethical non-monogamous relationship, or if you've decided that you want to explore alternative lifestyles, if you want to get into casual sex with people, whatever you want to do. Look, you don't have to— depending on what the level of communication is that people want. And I know I've been in some— have some friends where it's like I need to know everything. And for me, I don't need to know everything. Like, if you tell me, oh, I'm going to go spend the weekend there, I know what you're doing. Like, I'm not an idiot. Just like, go and have fun. Good. Have fun. Enjoy. And I'll see you around. Oh, you know. Right.

I do think that there's, you know, wanting to know everything can, can For some people, I'm not one of them, but for some people I totally understand and celebrate if what they need is to have a lot of information so that they feel like there aren't secrets and they're not totally left out. And that's just part of the dynamic for them and it works for them and that's great. I think there's also a set of people for whom it's not really so much about safety, but it's a way of of like keeping it hot. Like they enjoy, they get off on hearing what their partner did. That's part of it. And it's part of the motivation to do it. And so that can be hot as well. I'm, I'm not one, I'm actually quite monogamous. I'm either totally single and don't want to have any of these conversations at all. Or I'm, or I'm monogamous. I have found that that in-between thing is too complicated for me. I don't, I don't enjoy it so much. So like, unless we agree that we're monogamous, you can assume I'm having sex with other people and dating other people, and I don't want to talk about it because it's none of your business because we're not in a relate— you know, we're not in like that kind of relationship.

So yeah, I mean, when I first started exploring all of this stuff when I left my marriage, I didn't, I didn't really know very much. So if I think back to when I first got into all of it, I I still was wanting something that was more long-term and more secure, and that is what I knew from having been married. So I naturally gravitated towards that, even as I was in situations that I knew were very temporary. I still was hopeful all the time that maybe it might lead to something else. I think partly as a result of being postmenopausal, and so I don't have all those drama hormones going through my body that make all of that activity active in my brain around like desperation to be sick, you know, that kind of security. I just, I'm much more kind of level about all of it. But I do recall that in the early days of this, exploring all of this kind of worlds, these worlds, I did want a high level of information, sexual information around what people did, because it diluted the intensity of what they'd done for me. So the more they told me, the less I felt left out. And the more partly I got turned on by it, because I felt the other person was being so indiscreet, that it was really exciting that they were letting me in on all of the stuff that they'd done. And yeah, So I use that— oh, I use that as a way to play with jealousy. Um, I found a really good way for me to play with jealousy, um, and to make jealousy work for me in a way that it didn't when I didn't know anything. So, right, I, I, I really, I really got into that. But as I become more comfortable around people having multiple partners and being in on a more casual level with, with them anyway, I don't really have any desire to know anymore. I have to say, like, I, I, it might be sexy maybe, but I kind of don't think so anymore. Like, I don't, yeah, I just don't feel that way now like I used to.

Yeah, I, it's very interesting. And, and, you know, as I'm settling into menopause, I, or post-menopause, I should say. I mean, I, we use that term menopause and post-menopause kind of interchangeably, but I think actually the menopause is that actual moment that you stop. Yeah. Um, and I've, I think I've just sort of settling in and I'm noticing now that I'm, I'm sort of not in that moment where I'm trying to cling to youth.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That, like, and, and just being open and exploring and re-meeting myself and what my, my erotic mind and my sensual body, like, what, what's going on there. And, and, you know, I'm slower to orgasm, I have less sensation, I'm, I think about sex a lot less, um, I go through periods, you know, where I'm super turned on, and then I go through periods where I don't really want to have sex.

Yeah.

Um, and so, you know, it's, it's pretty interesting how that evolves. I think what, what we're getting at here, what we're arriving at together, which is not surprising, and I think anybody who is, who is non-monogamous will say that the most successful sort of execution of that relationship paradigm involves a lot of self-knowledge.

Yeah.

And, and ability to communicate and willingness to communicate. You know, that's, that's really— there's— when there are multiple players and there are multiple dynamics and there are, you know, there's no one way, you know, when you're married, we have a lot of information. Like, we are groomed to be in a monogamous relationship with, with classic sort of expected behaviors and thoughts and perspectives in that. Um, but it's when it's sort of, uh, open and there's so many different varieties and options on how you live that way, live live, you know, non-monogamously, you have to be able to understand what it is that you feel and want and boundaries and things that are acceptable, not acceptable, requests that you can make. But you have to be able to know yourself and be honest with yourself about it. There's no shame in wanting a certain level of safety, and there's no shame in not wanting information.

No, absolutely. And I think that's, you know, it's a good place to close it off and, and to consider whether you have the skills and the ability to be able to communicate your wants and needs with others in a clear way without asserting blame and just being really honest with yourself as well about what it is that you want. And I know that for me, it has taken me 62 years to get here. So, you know, I do think that if there's ever a time to do this, sometimes it is when you're an older person and you are capable of having those, you know, emotion— not dramatic conversations, but just, you know, look, This is what I'm— I want, and this is what I'm expecting of you. And if that's not gonna happen, then this probably isn't going to work, you know, if that's too hard. And that also means that you're willing to accept that sometimes things just aren't meant to work.

So yeah, or, or aren't meant to work, or aren't meant to work on an ongoing basis.

Yeah, exactly. But, but yeah, I mean, it's a lot. But yeah, I think just treat people with respect, and no matter what the situation that you're in, just treat them with respect. Yeah, there you go.

Yeah.

And that's the end of this episode. If you've liked listening to Sex Advice for Seniors, please share it with your friends and subscribe and tell other people about it and suggest things that you might want us to talk about in the future. In fact, we do have a guest next week, just so you know, Zoe. Yay! Oh, is it next week? No, it's not. It's at the beginning of—

2 weeks, right?

Sorry, it's in a few— couple weeks we have a guest. Uh, next week we'll talk about something else. But yeah, if you like everything, then, then just share it and, and let other people know because we really do appreciate it. That's all for me.

And that's all for me too.