Episode 57: Lube, Sex Toys & Choice

Hello, I'm Suzanne Noble, and I'm Zoe Saldaña, and you are listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. And we're here today with the lovely and quite fabulous Sam Evans, who is, I think, on a one-woman mission to make sex toys accessible to all ages. And to break down some of those myths and things that we hear about things like lubricants and some of the crap that's out there in the market, and to really educate people about how they can continue to have a healthy and pleasurable sex life beyond the age of 50.

Hallelujah!

Hallelujah! Yeah, she is— she's like a one-woman, like, super amazing person. And we met in a hot tub Well, we probably met even before then. God knows. We met a long time ago.

We did, yeah.

Yeah, we were both—

It was very nice in the hot tub, yeah.

It was.

It was.

Anyway, Sam, you've been running Joe Divine for— how long has this been?

It's— we set it up in 2007. So Paul and I, my husband, it was his idea. So he was working in banking and IT. I had been a nurse and I was actually looking after the children. And he said, why don't they have sex toy parties for couples? And we were sort of like, I don't know why. Anyway, at that time there were a couple of sort of high-end brands coming to market. There was LELO and there was Fun Factory. And so, you know, it wasn't your cheap, horrible jelly toys, though obviously they still exist. And actually he said, well, maybe we could look into this. And we'd always had a good sex life, though I've had lots of sexual health issues, which is why I'm passionate about what I do now. And so basically Jody Vine came out of drinking a few pints in Rye, I think it was, or it might have been in Norfolk somewhere, or Suffolk, can't remember. And he said, and then we basically had an ad in a magazine which then folded, not because we had an ad in the magazine, but we had a huge amount of people contacting us buying the toy, which was a plain battery-operated toy. And then people said to Paul, you know, why don't you set up a website? So that's what we did. And he carried on working, you know, for about a year. So he'd take the orders, he, he, the phone would go, he had little phone, he'd run to the loo at work, take the order, he'd then phone me through, I'd pack it up, and then I'd take it down to the post office. And people say, I've seen you with your orange trolley. And I go, yeah, it's the trolley of love. So we used to wrap them up every Sunday night in brown paper because we only sold a few products, um, and watching Lark Rise to Candleford, which was a period drama, while the kids were in bed. So So yeah, the Trolley of Love, a little trolley from a hypermarket in France. So yeah, so 2007, when we were committed to only selling skin-safe sex toys and irritant-free lubes, it was very hard to find irritant-free lubes. And it was through using them ourselves that I discovered that all my problems were related to using KY and Durex lubes, and the vast majority of lubes that are out there, which are very poor. And also then we wanted to be a resource, so we actually started writing articles. And I came back into the company when the kids were a little bit older and suddenly realized, where's all the sex advice of these people who are buying that vibrator? They've had hysterectomy, they've had cancer treatment, they're going through the menopause, post-childbirth. There was nothing, nothing on NHS websites. There still isn't. It's all very generic if it is there. And so started building up the library, which is like, I don't know, 5 or 6,000 500 or 600 articles on there, and I've written extensively for the press, and I've been on TV on the Davina McCall Menopause Programme and How to Have a Better Orgasm on Channel 5. So, um, yeah, and I think for Paul and I, it was about normalizing sex because we really like sex. A lot of people like sex, but, you know, everybody goes into meltdown when you talk about it. Um, and so it's actually explaining to people, you know, there are things you can do to make your sex life even better, or just have a good sex life.

So yeah, amazing. Been quite a journey, hasn't it?

It has. And over the years, things have changed positively, I would say, in some areas. But I do feel like we're taking a backward step in some areas, like sex education and, you know, sort of everything in being inclusive and that. Um, you know, obviously menopause is having its moment at the moment, um, but you get backlash for that as well, even though you're just trying to help people enjoy good sexual health and pleasure. And, you know, I think it's trying to change people's mindsets about, you know, enjoying sex and how it is so good for your health, both physically and mentally. And it doesn't have to stop, you know, when you hit 40, 50, 60. Our oldest customer is 93, you know, and my view is I love these old customers. They tell us about their sexual exploration. Delights, and it's amazing. Or they tell us they've had a terrible sex life, but now they've got a new partner and it's brilliant. Yay! Yeah, I love hearing it. So changing that, um, the, you know, the view on that, because we've still got this, oh, older people and sex. Well, yeah, yeah, but you'll be old one day. I'm going to be old one day. I still want to carry on enjoying pleasurable sex. Yeah.

I mean, Zoe, we're, we're obviously speaking from a UK perspective here, like How did— what's your feeling being in the trenches in this area around things like lubes and sex toys and stuff like that? Is it a subject that comes up for you?

Um, it definitely comes up for me. I, I am completely puzzled at how this country could still be so uptight and all of this, um, sort of I mean, I sort of attribute it to our puritanical roots, you know. So sex in general is something that— Sam, you said something, you use words like everybody loves sex, but then they shut down. Did you say when they— when you talk about it? And so, yeah, I find a lot of that, a lot of people who can't talk about sex, who aren't particularly having great sex. And who are sort of hypersexualized in their appearance and in their social behavior, right? So it's this great paradox. And that's basically where my work comes in is unwinding what's happening in the brain, the biggest sex organ, you know, to be able to allow the body to feel pleasure.

Yeah, I mean, Sam, what are the— I mean, like you said, your, your clients or your customers are across such a vast age range, and I know that you've probably seen quite a lot of people come to you with similar challenges. What are the most familiar challenges that you see amongst both men and women?

So mainly people are coming to us who, you know, women hitting menopause and they've got vaginal dryness and they've never experienced it before, you know, and suddenly they're going, oh, maybe I need to use a lube. Oh, I'll just grab something out the kitchen or bathroom cupboard, or go to Boots or, you know, the supermarket and use that because that's the best well-known brand, it must be fine. Oh, there's even products on prescription as well. So we've got reputation for— obviously I'm known as the lube queen, um, because I mentioned about my sexual health issues. So basically my 20s and 30s, when Paul and I met we use Lube, we use KY, we use Durex. They were the well-known brands. I constantly got infections. I got thrush, bacterial vaginosis, the fishy-smelling discharge. I got cystitis, urinary tract infections. And so basically that then led to vaginismus, whereby the pelvic floor muscles tighten and it makes sex painful or not possible. I'd never heard of vaginismus. I trained as a nurse. I got a diagnosis at 30, but it was because every time we had sex, I'd be thinking, am I going to be up all night on the loo with cystitis? I'm going to get UTI, I'm going to be itching on the wall tomorrow with thrush. And I had no idea. Not one doctor asked me. I kept going back, getting prescriptions because you had to buy— you had to get Canesten over on prescription. You couldn't get it over the counter like you can now. Constant UTIs and antibiotics, which then gave me thrush. And not one doctor actually asked me about my sex life. Not even asked me, what are you washing yourself with? What washing powder are you using? Because they're common irritants. 'Um, what sexual lubricant?' 'What sort of sex are you having?' Because I could have been doing something, you know, that could be causing infections. Not one doctor asked me. One doctor, the only doctor who sort of gave me some advice about thrush, was he said, 'Oh, iron the gusset of your knickers to kill the thrush bugs.' He's not my gynecologist anymore. Um, yeah, not all of us have time to do that. But it wasn't until we set up Josie Vine and started using an organic brand of lube and within about a week I remember when we first started using it, I thought, well, that actually feels really nice. There's no stinging and it feels okay. No. And actually it was within about a week and I'm saying to Paul, I actually haven't had any irritation, I haven't had cystitis. And it sort of grew from that. Don't get me wrong, I did get a few infections sort of from the age of— because I was about 40 then, so I was going into perimenopause again, a topic I had no idea about. Trained as a nurse because it's not covered in training. I think it is now, hopefully. And I know about it now because I'm living it in the menopause community. But, um, and so basically those changes happen to the vagina in perimenopause. And, you know, it's not— it's your vagina, your vulva shrinks, the tissues become sore, you get UTIs, cystitis, thrush. Um, and, you know, so then it was that light bulb moment. It was like, what's going on? Why is this lube working really well for me? It was the ingredients. So basically The ingredients. The vast majority of lubricants contain irritating ingredients. So glycerin, it's a sugar, it creates a sugary environment inside the vagina, and that encourages thrush to thrive. It's a well-known vaginal irritant. It's a cheap ingredient, and it also makes a lube very, very sticky. Propylene glycol, again, that's another well-known vaginal irritant, and often the ingredient that causes stinging when you first put it on, not just on a vulva and vagina, but on an inside an anus and on a penis too. You've got parabens. They are preservatives. They are weak hormone disruptors, again irritants being removed from a lot of skincare and body care products. So why would you want to put them inside your vagina? Dyes, because you all need a bright pink vulva, you know, perfumes because you all need to taste of strawberries or smell of vanilla. You know, you've got alcohol, which we know is really drying to the skin. You know, it's in skincare products. It dries your skin out. We've now got CBD lubes. Well, we don't actually know what CBD does to the microbiome of the vagina. There's no clinical evidence-based information. It's all anecdotal. Some people say it works because we've got CBD tampons. So we really don't know. Some people swear by the fact that it helps their period pain or their endometrial pain, which is fine, but we still don't have the evidence. And a lot of brands now say, oh, we're parabens-free, we're glycerin-free, but they've still got other irritating ingredients and they've still got the propylene glycol. And some websites actually brag about these ingredients. But it's almost like, for me, I became an ingredients detective. And obviously people who now come to me, they become ingredients detectives. You become paranoid. You actually pick up stuff and you say, what's in this? This isn't a good lube. And why are doctors recommending this lube? And why is it being used for smear tests? My own GP practice, I hope they're going to be using Sutil Hourly Lube because my nurse did a smear test with my lube the other day. And said, I really want to use this. I don't like this box of stuff they've given me. It's full of rubbish, which was great. So people don't know, they often say, oh well, I'm using KY, or I'm using this brand, or the GP gave me this lube. But, and then we go, well, actually it's got these ingredients in it, you can cause thrush. Oh yeah, I get thrush. Or they go, oh well, coconut oil, because that's the sort of thing that a lot of doctors like recommending. And that's a bit like Marmite, it can cause thrush. It really needs to be in a tube, not a pot, not like a pot off the shelf in the supermarket, because you're dipping your fingers in and out of it. Those pots as well are not pure, you know, they can have, they can be adulterated in some way. You need 100%, you need it to be pure, and actually some of the products, some of the coconuts are being farmed by monkeys on chains. But coconut oil, like any oil, will destroy latex condoms. It hangs around inside the vagina and the anus. So for up to about 24 hours. But yeah, some doctors love it. Oh, it's cheap. And my view is, but women spend so much money on their skincare products and their haircare products. Why can't they actually invest a little bit in their vagina health? You know, why shouldn't they be thinking about what could be the best product for them to actually use? So this is why I constantly talk about ingredients. So vaginal dryness, and actually, you know, we've had people say to us, we used your lube this weekend, we spent all weekend in bed. You know, it can be simple as that. Buying a tube of lube.

Um, myself, that, um, because I was given by the sexual health clinic, you know, they give you condoms and they give you these lubes in Mates lube, water-based lubricant, in, um, in like little sachets.

Sachets, yeah.

And I've, you know, and I took them because I was like, yeah, let's take them because they're free and, you know, they're giving them to me with condoms and stuff, so I'll just take them. But bloody hell, they sting. And I remember having sex and the burning sensation was like, you have to get away from me now, you know. And this was just when he just put it on. I was like, yeah, ouch, ouch. You could feel the alcohol in it, you know, you could. It was horrible. So yeah, I mean, but look, people, like you said, it's not something that any of us are educated about. And frankly, I had a very funny conversation once with a woman after I'd been working as a, as a salesperson at Erotica for ID Lube. That's a whole nother story. Um, and I was given all of this ID Lube, and I said to my friend, would you like some lube? Because I've just got so much of this stuff, I'm not going to be able to use it in a lifetime. And she said, oh, I don't, I don't need lubricant. I don't need lubricant, you know, like, because so there's this whole thing like I'm wet enough being a sign of like a status symbol thing, right? And then I said, well, what about your bum if you ever have anal sex? She's like, oh no, my bum, it's fine. I'm thinking, why is your bum self-lubricating? Do you have a self-lubricating bum? Because I've never heard of that before. But, but it was just the way she said it to me in terms of making me feel ashamed.

Yes.

Of needing a little help, right?

And actually, we know that it can be any age, and you're, you know, we are customer base is 18 to 93, but your lubrication is impacted not just by menopause, your age, you know, the pill. The pill. The reason why we had to use lube when I met Paul was because I was on the pill and it dried up my natural lubrication. Anxiety, stress, sexual side effects to medication, antihistamines. This time of year, you know, we've still got sun and we've got, you know, people get allergies. You know, they don't realize—

I've got an allergy at the moment. Yeah.

And if you're taking regular antihistamines, they dry up your secretions, including your natural lubrication. But obviously antidepressants, breastfeeding, you know, I wish my doctor had told me to use blooming lube when I was breastfeeding my kids. And, you know, and people— this, I think it was actually your friend Rose who said, called it the hierarchy of wetness, which I thought was fabulous because it was like, oh yes, I get that. People go, they're really put out when you say, oh yeah, we recommend you use a lubricant with our toy. Oh, I don't need that. But then you actually try, probe a little bit, and then you find out that they're using, you know, I'm using olive oil, or I'm using oil out the car, or God knows what they're using, something from under the kitchen sink. You know, it's like it's something that's completely unsuitable. We've heard it all— hand cream, Sudocrem, it's not even slippery, you know, Bio-Oil, which is really expensive, you know, the things that we hear. People just assume because it's slippery it's fine to use intimately, and actually no, it's not, because it's actually going to disrupt your vagina health and the microbiome and the pH, and then that causes irritation and itching. And also, if you are using condoms, it will damage latex condoms. So, um, yeah, this whole lube thing, but my view is wetter is better. You know, Sutil, the lube that we sell, Sutil Luxe and Rich, I've never tried a lube like it. It's a Canadian brand, and basically it's water-based but it's long-lasting, so a little goes a long way, and it interacts with your own body's natural lubrication to make you feel wetter, and it feels really natural. I've never tried a lube like this before in my life, and it's It's really good, and also it can be used as a vagina moisturizer. But you know, it's actually finding lube that works for you. If you love coconut oil, then that's fine. But you know, I'm helping people who often discovered that they've tried some lube and it's caused problems, so they're looking for the best. And it's not just women. We have a lot of men phoning up on behalf of their partners who are too embarrassed to talk to us, and they're asking advice about lubricants, or they've had problems in the themselves. And a big issue that's sort of recently come to light is, um, condoms. So a lot of people think they have a latex allergy, but actually they're being irritated by the lubricant on the condom. Um, so we sell the Skyns condom, S-K-I-N-S. They're lubricated with the silicone lube that we sell. Um, but I just say to people, you need to probably try a few condom brands to see. But also, some condom brands, well-known ones, don't list the lube ingredients on the packaging, so you actually don't know what's on that lube. But quite frankly, their lube in general is not very good, so they're probably using the same lube on their condoms. And again, you know, getting the right fit, you know, that's so important. People just don't seem to realize that condoms do come in different sizes.

Yeah, yeah. And it's— look, it's a big thing, and I think for a lot of men, older men especially, I I've been surprised more recently, and maybe it's because of becoming more sexually active, that I don't have to ask anymore for men to wear condoms, which is really great because before that I did. And I'm still— and I'm finding that it's— that they're just doing it. Um, as you say, they're—

they—

the ones that are smart though are testing out different ones and trying to work out the ones that are right for them. Because the temptation is just to go to the supermarket and just pick whatever's cheapest or at hand. And they don't— again, there's so little education about these condoms and the difference between them that it's often only through trial and error that you discover that actually, wow, that feels a lot better.

Yeah.

And otherwise they just go through going, oh, they're really uncomfortable, I don't like it, they're too I, I don't want to wear it, I can't feel anything, all of this sort of stuff, because nobody tells them.

Yeah, and actually people are really spoiled for choice with condoms, you know, but people don't seem to realize there are different sizes. And it's all well and good, you know, these young women putting a condom on their arm, well, that's very different from putting it on a penis, a penis that actually might be losing its erection as well, you know, because often people get anxious and feel a bit stressed as well. And also we do have these conversations when people say, oh well, I'm in a new relationship, actually I haven't had sex for years, sex is a bit painful. So I give them the advice about lubes and maybe a slim sex toy, but I'm going, oh, you are using condoms? Oh no, but I can't get pregnant. And actually in all these years, I've only spoken to one woman earlier this year, and she was 74, her partner was 75, and she said, oh yeah, we've had our STI tests. And I thought, my God, it's 15 years, and actually you're the first person he's told me that. I mean, some people may have had it and had the test and not told me, but yet this still— I can't get pregnant. And I was going, yeah, but STIs don't know your age, you know. So it's actually like— and I know, and I've actually talked— I've advised people who've had an STI and been mortified, you know, a one-night stand with somebody first time they're out of their divorce, or they're separated, or, you know, their partner might have died, absolutely mortified that they've actually contracted an STI. So, you know, this is so important. We need a sex ed campaign for older people because the condom brands don't include older people in their marketing, you know, and we don't see this and we don't have people talking about it, but we need it targeted at older people because we're living longer, so people are going to enjoy sex for longer, you know, and people are, you know, on dating websites, they're going to sex clubs, you know, sort of nothing's off limits really. So This is so important, but I do feel like, you know, it's always aimed at young people. I remember speaking to a very well-known condom brand person. She was the marketing person, and I made some comments about, oh, so think about what's your demographic? Because I said something about older people. Oh yeah, they're not our demographic. It's sort of 35. I said, well, the over 50s are having loads of sex. I said, you really should be targeting them. Yeah, no, no, it was like You're really missing a trick, actually. You need to be targeting older people, and also healthcare professionals and doctors need to be asking patients, you know, about what they're doing if they're presenting with sexual health problems, which potentially could be an STI, and you have no idea what they're doing.

So, well, in this country, we pretend that people only have sex to reproduce, so condoms are only to prevent pregnancy. We don't have fun in the United States. Sex is not fun. It's only for having babies. But of course, about 10, 15 years ago, about 15 years ago, there was a— it was all over the news for a period of time, um, uh, the STIs in nursing homes. People were having all kinds of— and so then there was— then there was a group of people who wanted to do sex ed in nursing homes, and and the families of the residents, they blew their tops. Yeah, like, no way, man, you can't talk about sex with these people, that's disgusting. You're gonna— and, and this idea that if you talk about sex, it's going to compel people to have sex, and God forbid.

Well, our daughter's a young sex education activist, and she's written a sex education book which came out last year aimed at 14 plus and young adults. And basically, you know, she gets so much hassle. She's on— she's a big TikTok LGBT influencer, and she gets so much hassle, and it generally is from America if she tackles any topics. And it, it's just bonkers because we know the research is if you actually educate them, they're actually more likely to be careful. And we have customers going from their own home to residential care to to a nursing home, you know, and actually we've had partners buy a toy for their wife or husband to enjoy in that home. But it, you know, and also we hear obviously, don't we, we hear about people having to conceal their sexuality, you know, so if you're gay, you know, you have to pretend, and it's really sad because why should it stop? I mean, Paul's view is always, my God, give them all a sex toy, have a quiet afternoon, shut all the doors, the staff can put their feet up and have a good hour You know, and it's kind of like, and they'll be so much happier, you know. I just find it, you know, I find it really— this attitude. I mean, we have customers who phone us up because their daughter has thrown away their sex toy while they're in hospital, you know, or, you know, or when somebody passes away. We have a little brochure that gets sent out with every order, but also people go on the mailing list. So often we do a mailout twice a year and we will get brochures back and it says deceased, which is incredibly sad. I mean, oh, she was a really good customer, or at least she died happy. That's always our view. And actually you get relatives phoning up and going, I can't believe you've sent this catalogue to my mother. And you can't actually say to them, but your mum's bought so many sex toys. And you go, okay, well I'll just remove her from the mailing list. Or you know, when people have moved into residential care and they've got somebody new in the house and this was, 'Cause this woman was 94, this one was really old, why was she having this? And I said, so you've opened a post, have you? Rather than, you know, you could contact us on the addresses on the outside. But it is a really strange, this attitude that, you know, you can't imagine that your parents are enjoying sex or want to have sex or are using a sex toy. You know, and actually a lot of our older customers are educating younger family members, which is brilliant. You know, because they are far more open-minded. And my view is, if you've had a good sex life when you were younger, and you may no longer have a partner, but you don't want to stop, you want to carry on, you know. So a lot of people, particularly women, will buy themselves a sex toy, and then they'll, you know, use it before they go to sleep. Helps them have a good night's sleep, keeps everything happy and healthy, the vagina and the vulva, you know. It boosts their mood, it helps their mental health, you know. It's never going to replace a partner, but it will replace that physical side of, you know, intimacy. So, um, yeah, I just— we always laugh when these people are so shocked, and I'm dying to say, but you spent so much money with us, you think, where are the toys? But the funniest is, I don't know whether it's an urban myth, I have heard it a couple of times, but one woman did say she buried the toy in the garden and the gardener dug it up because she didn't want her family to know about it. But then somebody else actually told me that, and I thought, I wonder if they friends. So it was really funny, you know, the gardener dug it up. So, um, but yeah, the family, you know, the family are really disgusted and they think that we've sent out this unsolicited mail. You feel like, no, your mum's been on the mailing list for years, she came to us from yours magazine, you know. So funny, that's crazy.

I mean, and, and then look, there are so many sex toys now, you You, you mentioned when you first started in 2007, and when I first started getting into sex toys, which wasn't— it was just a little bit before then, probably when LELO and stuff started doing some of their nice products. And I thought, oh, those are, you know, those are quite nice. But, you know, I was used to a kind of single-speed, uh, pretty simple vibrator. And now, of course, I open up your site and other sites And there's just like, I'm just, to be honest, I'm pretty overwhelmed by the choice. And I'm still very much on the— I've gone to two speeds now because, um, I, because I've, I've, I've realized that actually partly through menopause, I need the— I need a little bit more help than, than I had before, but also I have to, um, I have to make sure that I don't, you know, I don't use these things too often because I do find they do sensitize my, uh, clitoris. And so I try and stick to the lower settings if I can because the upper settings now are like off the scale.

They're really ridiculous.

They're just really strong, and I really struggle with like how strong they are. And I noticed these new motors that they put, these Chinese motors are just like— I think they put the same ones in electric cars, you know.

I mean, it's just—

they're just insane. So how do— how do you support people who are coming to you for the first time looking for something to help them?

So we always say to people, start small, um, because often people will phone up and say, I want to buy such and such, and it might be the Big Boss, and you know, this is a big boss. You go, have you used a sex toy before? No. Okay, well, I don't think that's a very good one for you. We always say start small, start with a simple battery-operated clitoral stimulator like a little bullet or a pebble toy, you know. And also, you know, maybe a simple, um, classic vibrator, you know, that you can use externally and internally too. Um, and you know, I always say to people, it's about motors, it's not actually about the size. So obviously some people love size. I mean, I like I do like bigger toys, um, but it's actually about the motors and the functionality of the toy. And you're right, you know, there's some of the toys have got 12 levels. I've only got to level 5. And yeah, and one of the toys, the Lelo Sona, which is our most popular clitoral toy because I showed it on the Davina McCool—

yeah, I'm, I'm still struggling with that one. People love those, don't they? She's showing us a clitoral sucker for all of you people out there who can't see this because we're just audio. It's a, it's a sucking thing, isn't it?

Yeah, so it uses sonic wave technology and it basically gently teases and caresses the clitoral tissue. And obviously what you see on the outside is just the tip, and then the balls sit around the vagina, and it sends those sonic wave sensations through that clitoral tissue, which is actually really what is being stimulated during sex through the walls of the vagina. Um, but this toy comes on, pow, on high when you turn it on, and you need to turn it right down low. I mean, it's got 12 levels. I think I've got up to level 5. But, you know, some people will just whack on and then go, oh, it's not working for me. But I said to, you know, there are so many designs as well, you know, there's Sonar and there's all sorts. We sell quite a few on our website, and they have transformed orgasms, you know, because they've helped people who've got decreased sexual sensation, who've been struggling to have an orgasm. But, you know, they're not for everybody. Um, and it's sort of some people— we have how to use on our website, we have these two articles, and we have to send them to people because they go, well, this is actually how to use it, because you're not using it correctly. Um, but I've only had a couple of people who found that it really doesn't work for them. But the vast majority of people, you know, they, they like this style of toy. But I think the problem for people, they don't really understand about motors, and they don't understand about sex toy materials. So we only sell skin-safe toys, so they're made from silicone, glass, metal, ABS plastic. So the glass is borosilicate glass, which is like Pyrex dishes. The metal is, uh, surgical medical-grade stainless steel like surgical instruments. The ABS plastic is non-porous. These are all non-porous materials. There are jelly latex and rubber toys available everywhere. They are porous. They absorb bacteria. They leach out chemicals. They degrade over time. They degrade with lubes, you know, um, they perfume them to conceal the smell. They're really not good for you. And also, there's lots of fake toys out there too, and people don't really they're not buying from a reputable sex toy retailer what they're buying sometimes from a big website, um, you know, that sells everything. And so I always say to people, do your research really carefully, and if the price looks too good to be true, it probably is. You know, when I see things, I'm going, well, that's actually below the wholesale price that we pay for our products. So it's like, that can't possibly be a genuine product. And also, there are used products, there's a market for those, but also There's a lot of samples out there, they get repackaged, um, they've been used once and then they get resold. So again, go to a good company like Jo Divine. But it's actually about finding what works for you. I always say to people, start small with a clitoral toy and then work your way up, you know. And it might be that you only have two toys, you might have a clitoral toy, you might then have a classic vibrator, you know. It could be something as simple as this little straight battery-operated toy here, you know, you might have a rabbit toy, you know, then you don't need to go for the one that's all singing, all dancing with so many buttons, because some of them now I think are a bit confusing. Even we get confused.

You know, the manual's 100 pages long, like, when do you have an orgasm?

And some are app controlled, and people quite like those things, but quite often you're thinking, well, how does it work? And then trying to explain to people over the phone. So I often say to people, well, you just really want something that's quite simple. I mean, the most common issue that people have with our toys is they haven't got the batteries in the right way around and they can't get it working. So you hear them on the phone, you go, okay, so you need to turn it around, you need to make sure the end cap's screwed on. Now just press the button once and then you can hear it buzzing because they have argued with you. No, I know how to put batteries in. And then you can hear it buzzing. Oh, you've got it working. Great. Go and have fun. You know, because Paul and I love that. He goes, I said, did she get it working? Yes. You know, and actually most people are probably, oh, how stupid am I? But you know, it's really common, the end caps, you know, you need to screw them on. And some toys have, the rechargeable toys have locks on them, so you have to unlock them. So because they don't go off when you're traveling, which is fine. But yeah, it's— and we always troubleshoot for people. We say, please don't send them back, contact us. And we'll have things sent back which there's nothing wrong with them, so they end up being sent back to the person. But we always say to people, we normally can talk it through on the phone and say, you know, we can get your product working. Very rarely are there faults because we work with manufacturers that only sell reputable and reliable toys, so, you know, we get very few returns. So, you know, but it's nice to actually be able to help somebody go, oh right, just don't go, how fun.

So, um, my Lelo vibrator died after 20 years, just stopped. I think it was like one of the first ones I ever had. I know it was a sad day, but I still had another. Back in the days when I used to review sex toys, I had so many that when I opened drawers, men would get scared. And just find out— that is one final thing that I did want to talk about actually, because a guy, um, wrote to me and was talking about how he— his, his partner was having difficulty orgasming, and he discovered that she had a sex toy under her pillow, and he wondered whether that was what was preventing her from orgasming when they were together. And I said, what about bringing the sex toy into the bedroom? How about that? And he was like, oh, maybe— I said, you know, it's not a threat, but I've been in relationships where I was told it's not coming anywhere near our relationship, that that's for you in your private life, you know. And I don't think that's untypical, actually.

No, we've had women— you know, I had a woman who phoned up and said, do we have a completely silent toy? I mean, most of the toys are pretty quiet that she could use in bed when her husband had fallen asleep. And I said, well, could you actually talk to your husband?

Maybe.

I know some relationships you can't, and some people go off into another room or use them in the bath or the shower. You know, there's toys for men as well. You know, we're talking about older men having erectile difficulties. You know, there are lovely vibrating rings and non-vibrating rings. There's the Pulse, which is, you know, a fantastic male vibrator. You know, there are things that sort of can help with blowjobs. This is the Fun Factory Manta, you know, and actually, and it helps them to get an erection and sustain and maintain that erection as well. And it offers sexual stimulation. And obviously not Everybody's having penetrative sex anyway. Some people are able to, some people just don't have because they enjoy sex in other ways. And it means that couples can carry on playing together. So often we will— somebody will phone up for a sex— and this is the other thing I want to get across, is that we never talk about men's sexual health issues. And the fact is a lot of women will buy a vibrator because their partner has erectile difficulties. And actually, we always say to people, have they been to the doctor? Have they ruled out, you know, heart disease, diabetes, prostate health issues, um, you know, stress, anxieties, lifestyle issues. Um, and actually these women are buying a sex toy for themselves, but then they'll often then come back and we go, well, I'm going to buy a toy for my partner, which is great because it means they can play together, or they'll use their toy. Because I always say, yes, it says it's designed for a vulva and vagina, but you can use it up and down the shaft of the penis, around the head, on the testicles, on nipples. You always say to people, be really creative with your toy. And also then you're showing your partner how it works for you, and they can use it on you. And, you know, and if they can see that you're enjoying pleasure from it, you know— and I was saying, I've gone into menopause and things have shrunk, you know, so it does take a little bit to find things. I mean, I've got a good husband who does know— he does know where things are. Um, but, you know, we do have sex toys. We don't use a lot of our sex toys. I do have favorite sex toys that sometimes I quite like whip out and, and use. But, you know, it's about you showing your partner what works for you, um, you know, and for you both to enjoy pleasure together. And this whole thing of faking orgasms, it drives me potty because you're benefiting nobody, you know. You've got somebody thinks that they've managed to give you an orgasm for all these years, and actually, you know, for 30 years you haven't actually, and you missed out on it. When I talked about the Air Pulse and Sonic Wave toys, you know, we women say 'Had my first orgasm,' you know, and they're 65. And again, that's brilliant, but sad they had to wait that long. Bloody hell. You know, so yeah, never too late to have an orgasm.

No.

Well, our products are recommended in the NHS. Our little health brochures given out in the NHS, um, you know, they whip out their toys sometimes in their clinics and they'll show them to patients. I think it's brilliant because it's kind of like 'You know, oh, if, you know, they want to talk about sex, I know a woman who can help you with that.' You know, but it actually gives healthcare professionals the confidence to open up the conversation. And also then patients think, 'Oh, my doctor's human.' You know, they're happy to talk about sex. They're acknowledging that sex is good for you. And often, you know, one lady said, 'My GP said he kept your advert in a drawer,' and he whipped it out and he said, 'Go and get yourself one of those, that'll help you,' because she'd been widowed and she was missing her partner. 'And she's, oh my gosh, I was a bit gobsmacked, but I bought it and it's been great.' You know, and I've got one doctor, she says she loves it when people come back in and they go, 'Hey doc, I bought that toy that you recommended. Wow, it's done the trick.' You know, it's just like, because, you know, medical professionals and healthcare professionals are human, and, you know, it's not part of training. It needs to be part of training. We're getting better. I'm giving lots of talks to healthcare professionals. Um, you've still got the ones who sort of panic if you actually pop a sex toy in there, don't you go, oh my God, because I can't turn it off, you know. And consultants or somebody, you think, well, you look at vaginas all day, why are you worrying about this little toy that you can't switch off? But again, it's subjective views, and it's their views of who should and shouldn't be having sex, you know, because obviously the women I talk to, they've been told, aren't you too old for sex? No, you're never too old for sex.

So, well, for sex, and never too old to have a sex toy either.

No, definitely not. As I said, our oldest customer is 93. She's not the oldest. We had a couple who were both 95 quite a few years ago, and they said they're having a second honeymoon with the toys and pulls it all up, you know. Hopefully they died happy too.

Well, I couldn't live without mine. Zoe, what's your favorite toy before we close off?

Um, my clit sucker. I have an old one. I have an old one, older, I mean older, it's about 3 years old, um, and they don't make it anymore. And I would buy if they did, and I can't find anything quite the same. It's got, it has like the body of it, it's like an egg, and the, the sort of vibrating or suck, what, what I call the sucking device in it is at the top of it, and the rest of it vibrates, but it's, it hits the um, labia. So like, and the, the vestibules of the internal structure of the clitoris. And it's brilliant. I love it. But the company was acquired and they discontinued this particular one.

So, Sam, there's a task for you. Go for it.

I do get to test toys, and often we reject them, and I— but often I'll go, who invented that? Did they actually even talk to anybody. It was even tested on somebody with the vagina because I did something years ago that was like a wheel that went round with like— yeah, yeah.

Oh my God, and caught the clitoris like it— like it's— oh, we don't even want to go there, it was so painful. Anyway, we have reached the limit of our, of our little talk because we normally like to stop a little bit before then, but this was so fascinating. I wasn't going to stop this. And we could, we could have a part 2, like, on this because there's just no shortage of stuff to talk about when it comes to sexual health, older people, toys, lubricants, the lack of awareness in the medical profession, um, people that don't know how to put batteries in. I mean, honestly, where do we even start? So much, Sam. And thank you, Zoe, for being here with us today.

Yeah, thank you for asking me to talk about my favorite topic.

Always, always. And that's a goodbye for me.

And me.

And goodbye for me. Thank you.