Episode 59: What is consensual sex?

Hello, I'm Suzanne Noble, and I'm Zoe. And Zoe is back, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. We're still sponsored by Sunset Satisfaction, just in case any of you are interested in buying pleasure objects for your loved one or yourself. Butt plugs, books, all sorts of stuff we sell. And yeah, you can go there and check it out. Zoe and I thought today, in light of some of the recent news reports about a certain well-known personality, that we might talk about the issue of consent. Zoe, you said you had some thoughts about consent.

Yeah, so, you know, it's interesting, we were just chatting before we hit record a little bit about, about consent and about how it seems um, in some senses, like, just a no-brainer, you know? Like, do you want to do this? No? Okay, we won't do it. Do you want to do this? Yes? Okay, here we go. But, um, but it get— it can get really complicated, especially when alcohol or, you know, some form of intoxication is involved. Um, so Planned Parenthood has a really simple model of consent that, um, that I think is, is pretty good. There are a couple different ways to look at consent that I usually talk about. So Planned Parenthood, the, the, um, what is it called when you have— it's FRIES acronym. The acronym is FRIES, like french fries. F-R-I-E-S. Um, freely given, reversible, informed, enthusiastic, and specific. So fully given, right? Consenting is a choice you make without pressure, manipulation, or under the influence of drugs or alcohol, right? You're not— if you are intoxicated, you're not, uh, get— I mean, to a point, to, to a certain point, you're not able to freely give consent because you are— you don't have all your faculties. Reversible, Right. I usually say revocable, but reversible. Anyone who— anyone can change their mind about what they feel like doing any time. If you've done it before, and even if you're both naked in bed, right, you can be in the middle of the act and you— and if you say you've said yes, I want to have intercourse with you, then you're in the middle of the act. I'm changing my mind. This is no longer what I want to do. You, you need to stop doing it. Right.

Yeah. Yeah.

Informed. You can only consent to something if you have the full story. For example, if someone says they'll use a condom and they don't, there isn't full consent. If someone says they're on birth control, if they have a womb, they're on birth control, but they're not really. Um, and, and often this is, you know, if you have a sexually transmitted disease and you don't disclose that, right, you're not giving consent.

Yeah.

Enthusiastic: when it comes to sex, you should only do stuff you want to do, not things that you feel you're expected to do. And specific: saying yes to one thing, like going to the bedroom to make out, doesn't mean that you've said yes to others, like having sex, intercourse. Um, so that's the, that's the Planned Parenthood version. There's something else that people talk a lot about, which is called active consent, right? Affirmative, honest, conscious, voluntary, sober, and ongoing. Basically covers the same things. Yeah, just in a little bit of a different model. Active consent is not silence, a lack of protest, a lack of resistance, or assumed to exist based on past or current sexual dating or marital relationship, right? In other words, you're married, your spouse can actually rape you.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And we know that that does go on in relationships. Yes. I suspect, you know, a lot of people that I, I know, when I've spoken to some women of my age and talked about their early sexual history, it was almost always under the influence of something.

Yeah.

So, and, and I know that even the very act of having sex when you're not drunk, when you haven't had a drink, when you're not drunk, when you haven't taken drugs and everything, some people find that really, really, actually really challenging. Like, yeah, really hard. Like, getting to that deep level of intimacy without the aid of any substance is— can be really difficult for a lot of people. I know that. And I— and that's why the consent thing sometimes can be a bit gray, I think, because as much as it all makes perfect sense, the reality is there's a lot of people that have probably never had sex sober.

Oh, many, many, many.

Like loads, right? I don't know what the stats are, but I suspect they're significant. And then where does all that stuff sit if you're not fully present? If you are, you know, I say, well, then it's not consensual. But of course, um, if you wake up in the morning and it's all happy families, then that's good. If you wake up in the morning and it's not all happy families, then that's bad. And, and I know that a friend of mine today, we were chatting about his kids, and he was saying that the, the whole thing that's happening between the genders and a lot of blame that's being placed on males for not stepping up in the way that women think they should is making it really hard sometimes for guys to know what are these new rules that we've got. And I get that, you know, I get the fact that not everybody wants to be in a relationship with somebody, especially in the early days, where I think it's sexy to go, can I kiss you? And then I'm like, yeah, that's kind of— that's, that's hot, right? You know, and you could play around with all of that. Can I do this now? Can I do that now? Right? And that's, that's— I think that can be really fun. But a guy wrote on TikTok and said, one woman said, I hate it when guys are constantly asking me if it's okay. I just want them to be a bit more spontaneous.

So, I, you know, it's interesting because I'm, I am somebody who, this is where my personal preferences and my professional, um, perspective clash sometimes. Um, I'm someone who in my personal life, when I engage in sexual activity with someone else, I really don't like for them to ask permission. It's a turn-off for me. I mean, I mean, it isn't— it isn't. There's an artful way of garnering consent and checking in with me, and I really love that, and I respect that. But there's an aspect of me wanting— as a dyed-in-the-wool submissive, I want to be taken, right? Yeah. And so how do you balance consent with being taken? In my case, at my age, with the loads of experience that I've had, I try to do a lot of that talking and determining up front in advance so that when we get to the actual act, the consent is sort of given up front, and then there are ways of checking in, you know, um, along the way. Um, but it, but it is true, and, and I just said it, I, I, I'm coming. I've been away in the desert in Southern California in Joshua Tree all weekend for days teaching at a big yoga and music festival called Bhakti Fest. Really beautiful event if you are so inclined. I think there might be one in May coming up. We'll see. We're just back after the pandemic, but I've been doing this for 10 years or more, actually. And, and I was just saying to, you know, one of, in a workshop that I was teaching on energetic intimacy, we were talking about consent and, um, how, how it can be so— men are in a tough spot right now. Yeah. And I recognize that. I'm sensitive to that. And the idea that we are connecting, uh, he was very moved that his partner, who he didn't know— I have them partner with people that they don't know to do some eye gazing and things— and he felt very moved that this woman trusted him, you know, that found him trustworthy or believed that she could just relax into this exercise with him and how on eggshells he feels as a, as a, you know, a human being in a body with a penis, you know. So I think there's a, you know, the question of alcohol is challenging. And, and I think that one of the things, without victim shaming at all, I think that you have to, if you're going to drink and you're going to engage in drunk sex, there's a certain level of consent that you need to garner from yourself.

Yeah.

You know, and take responsibility for the level to which you're disabling your, your your, you know, cognitive faculties.

Yeah, yeah. But, you know, on the flip side, I think that, you know, you were talking about kind of, you know, domination, submission, BDSM, all that kind of thing. My experience also of that is that you set the clear rules at the beginning, you discuss the safe words, you discuss what you're comfortable with, what you're not comfortable with. You know, I've done this with people where they have checked in, and it's not intrusive, and I find it really respectful. But I also know that there is a huge part of that community who have watched too much porn. They've indulged in too much, you know, stuff where there's no consent. Uh, they read Fifty Shades of Grey or whatever the fuck they read, and, you know, they, they think that's appropriate, that's appropriate behavior. And I think for me The reason why I've tended, when I've been involved in those dynamics, I've always really enjoyed it with somebody who's quite experienced and spent a considerable period of time in that is because I have been in that scenario where a guy came over, we sort of discussed what we liked, it was all very playful, and then he came over and went into that kind of like, you know, cliché Domme role. And he literally was on top of me, and he was a big tall guy. He was like 6'6". He wasn't— and I'm, you know, 5'4", 5'5". And I just said, get off of me, get off of me. And he said, what, what, what? And I said, I'm not, I'm not enjoying this. I'm not into this. I think it's best that you leave. And he was like, what, what? And I, I said, I'm not, I'm not I'm not good with this. I, I thought I was good with it, but I'm not good with it. And for me, that took— because I'm experienced, I was able to do that. But I have to say that the me that was 20 years younger than that, yeah, I probably wouldn't have been. I probably would have just let him carry on with his thing and do his thing and then just felt like shit afterwards. And why didn't I say anything? And all that kind of stuff. Because Speaking up takes courage. You know, these women, a lot of women that are in these scenarios with men who have got them pinned against the wall, underneath their body, pinning them down, whatever, it may all start very playful and everything, and then it becomes not so playful. And often they feel they have no agency and they just feel trapped, literally trapped, right? And, and I, and I get the fact that consent is something you need to practice. It's not something that just happens. You have to practice it all the time, like starting by just being comfortable with saying no, full stop, right? No. Yep.

Yes, yes, you bring up such a good point. And one of the things in thinking about talking about this topic today was that I wanted to talk about how to practice consent with yourself first, and then with a friend, or a partner in a non-sexual situation, you know, or a partner, potential partner, or a longstanding partner. A couple things that I feel, I feel like I need to just sort of acknowledge. One is that in the experienced, knowledgeable kink community, Nobody has consent sewn up like the kink community. So good. You have to, right? And that's something that's built right into that sort of, um, lifestyle. And so what you're speaking to are people who sort of dabble, you know, right?

Yeah.

When I was saying that I'm a dyed-in-the-wool submissive, yes, when I play in the, in the sort of kink realm, which is less and less frequently as I reach my, you know, hover around 60 years old. I feel like I'm much less— I have a much less capacity personally, um, for that kind of intensity. But, um, but even just in regular non-kinky sex, I like to be dominated, you know. And so, and I think many people do, you know, men and women. So there's, there are subtleties and degrees, um, and I just wanted to give the kink community a little bit of credit in, in the way that, um, that, that is communicated. You know, safe words are great. Safe words are great for anybody, any couple, whether you're kinky or not. Having a, a term, you know, if I were to say, you know, um, propaganda, it means that I want you to slow down, or have, you know, or be less intense or more gentle or stop completely, you know. Sometimes it's easier to just say a word than to have to find the words in the moment, right?

Yeah, definitely. And I think also the thing about those safe words is that again, you could, you can play around with them, you can have fun with them. And, you know, you can do everyday things to just embed them within your relationships, right? So even as I talk about my tea consent, you know, do you want a cup of tea? Yes. Do you want a cup of tea? No. Do you want a cup of tea? Maybe. We use this whole— there's a whole animation about called tea consent, equating consent with a cup of tea. And it was like, if somebody doesn't want a cup of tea, you don't ram it down their throat. If somebody says they want a cup of tea and then they don't want to drink it because they just decided, changed their mind, you don't ram it down their throat. And again, just it, some, I'm not very good just generally saying no, just generally. And somebody told me, start with a counselor, a coach actually, and I put it in my Post-it note. She said, if you find no difficult, start with let me think about it. Because often it's not that I'm the don't, I may want to do something, but I'm not quite sure. I haven't— it needs to settle in my brain. I need to process it. Like, yes, it's really what I want to do. So she's like, just use 'let me think about it' as your, like, word that, that gives you the space to be free to just make your decisions. I was like, that's a good idea, because often I just say yes. Yes, yes. And then afterwards, I think, why did I say yes to that? That wasn't even fun, you know?

So yeah, yeah. Um, I, I think too, there's an aspect of like, when you're— look, I'm gonna make it really simple. It's so much better to err on the side of caution and ask permission or communicate or check in. And if it ruins the mood, better that than ruining the mood by assaulting someone unintentionally, you know. Yeah. And if you're just an asshole and go around assaulting people, cut that shit out. But if you're, if you're concerned, I mean, if you're just two decent human beings trying not to hurt each other, better to talk about it and to be able— I'd rather be told You know, that you asking permission kind of ruins the mood. It doesn't do it for me. Then I would say, right, I would say, okay, I get that. But how will I know if I'm doing something that you're uncomfortable with? So let's talk about how to communicate with each other while we're in the, in the act and all fired up, you know, just talk about it. Agree up front. We're going to experiment here. So how do we— you can use red, green, yellow. You could say, often you could say something like, I mean, if you don't want to just stop the action and say, okay, now I want to debrief for a moment and see what's going on with you. All right. You can say, like, How does, you know, do you like this? Is this still— does this feel good? You know, and that, you know, people say that all the time. Baby, is this good? You liking it? You know, but you can actually honestly say, like, out of curiosity, is this good for you? Or do you, do you, um, you know, where are you on your level? This is a kink thing, right? When you're playing with that edge of intensity and, and what people can, you know, tolerate pain. So you can say like, where are you? What number on, on 1 to 10? 10 being like the most intense or painful or whatever, and 1 being nothing. You can say like, where are you? I'm on a 4. And where do you want to be?

I'm—

I'd like a 7, or I'd like a 2. Well, yeah, okay, that's a lot of information. Yeah, yeah, play with. So there are ways of communicating.

Yeah, I mean, the, you know, outside of the kink community, I think the, the bigger challenge sometimes is you're, you know, you're on a vanilla first date, it seems to be going well, it's, you know, you're— the conversation's flowing, it's all feeling really good. Maybe one of you is feeling like, yeah, this is really happening, and the other one is maybe not feeling so good or just not feeling it or whatever. Often I think I've, I've certainly been in situations where I've acquiesced to what I knew was somebody else because I thought, you know, let's just see where this goes. And then it hasn't been all that satisfying, and then I didn't really want to see them again, and then, you know, they're calling me up all the time and stalking me and telling me everything was so wonderful. So, you know, you do have to be able to be clear in about what it is that you're— you actually want at that moment. And that's where sometimes drinks and drugs and everything blurs all of that, um, decision-making, and you, you end up in a crappy place where you wake up and think, what the hell did I just do there? And I know in one circumstance with one of my kid's friends. He woke up with a girl. She said, did you— did we have sex? He said, yes, we did. Are you kidding me? She said, I don't remember it. And she went to the police, and he was charged with rape, and he was pulled out of university, and his life was destroyed from that moment on. But you know, that, that is— it— that's to me like the most extreme scenario, right? But it also shows me like you have to be careful about this kind of stuff. Like in the recent news reports these women, some of them waited years for fear of, you know, the fact that— and this, you know, he's not the only one. There's, there's loads of people that are celebrities that have gotten away with all sorts of shit, right? And people just feel like, I don't have any voice. Nobody's gonna listen to me. He's got a big law firm behind him. Yes, it's just not— I, I don't have any voice. So, you know, you really do have to think even from a young age. And I suspect that consent is not taught in schools as much as it needs to be. We talk about human biology and this part goes into this part and, and all of this, but we don't talk about, you know, boys not having a right to ask for naked photos and spread them amongst their friends, you know. Um, all this kind of stuff that we know goes on with children these days. Yeah, nobody tells them any of this stuff, right?

Correct. No one tells you. So we learn about biology, we learn about conception, we learn about, you know, sperm swimming to a— it's all very abstract. No one's talking about relationship, no one's talking about, you know, it's— yeah. And, and the— it's my experience that consent, the way consent is covered is, you know, like, don't give consent. Don't do it, you know.

Really? Yeah, yeah.

Like, just don't have sex.

Yeah, yeah, I suppose. Yeah. And maybe that— I don't know if that's the same in, in the UK, but I suspect in the US it's just if you just avoid it, you, you don't have any problems, right? So just avoid it and therefore ignore all the problems.

Right.

But, but we do need to teach young people about it because as they, you know, as they grow up and they start watching stuff on social media, all the crap that is out there about, you know, women— somebody's put on, on the TikTok channel, women are— some women love this form of abuse. And I thought, the fact you've used abuse in this sentence And the fact that— I mean, where does that assumption come from? I said, sure, there are women that may consent to you doing things that other people might really just find completely distasteful. Yeah, that doesn't mean that there's a huge group of women out there who are dying to, you know, have like deep throat blowjobs and shit, right?

Yeah, I'm gonna— I'm gonna— and I don't have a statistic on this, um, but I— so it's all sort of anecdotal evidence from my own practice with women, and I work with a lot of women for many years now. And it is, um, I, I believe that it's every woman's sort of deepest, darkest fear that they will be raped. Yeah, that's the— I mean, other than killed, right? You know, fear of death. But like, there is, there is— being in a female body comes with a certain degree of vulnerability that we can be raped, and And many women are.

Yeah.

And so I think that that's a reality and a sensitivity that I think is starting to surface in terms of society. Right. And the MeToo movement. And so there's a heightened awareness and there's a heightened sensitivity. And as with all things that in the process of transformation, the pendulum is on one side and then it swings all the way to the other side. And then it, you know, I think that this is a little bit of a comeuppance, you know, in terms of like the context we live in where we have to really recognize that this is not okay behavior and that hundreds and thousands of people are being harmed, you know?

Yeah, I mean, the conversation I had today with my male friend was around the fact that I said to him, we live— all women live with fear. I don't think he was saying about the fact the pendulum had swung too far to the other side, and he just feels like men are just constantly under attack now. It's just, we're just constantly bombarding them with, this isn't good enough, that's not good enough, this is shit, we're doing this, we're doing that. And I said I, I think you need to appreciate we have been living with fear our whole lives. I'm 62. I'm still walking around with a set of keys in my hand at night. Yeah, right, because that's what I was told to do, because I have been molested on the street, and so I take precautions, right? And my experience is very similar to many, many, many other women I know, and I think it's hard for people in a male body to fully understand the level of heightened awareness and fear we live— we constantly live with. And yes, I agree, like, we've— maybe we have swung too far. Maybe, you know, sure, there are good guys out there, we know that, but, you know, we have to feel we can speak up. And that's really, for me, what it comes down to is like Do we feel we have the right to speak up without being shut down? Yeah, that's it, right? Like, if we can't speak up, there's no consent.

Yeah. Yes. So I think it's a good time to say, like, how do we practice consent with our— with ourselves? How do we— how do we— how do we check in? How do we know? Right. I, you know, I think using tea as an example, when you're alone, when you're not actually offering somebody else a cup of tea, when you offer yourself a cup of tea, just slow down and take a moment to say, do I really want this tea? I mean, I did. I'm, I'm sort of working on changing my habits around food. So I often will say, like, do I want this? Third taco, or were two tacos plenty for me? What does my body want? You know, like my mouth and my brain want to eat the deliciousness, but actually I'm full. So, you know, really, really just using food, using whatever you're doing, you know, as an opportunity to check in with yourself and, and really foster that relationship when you are going out. And you're going to be drinking. And, you know, whether you're with somebody that you know you're probably going to have sex with, or me, that, that opportunity may come up, or you're going out to a party and there's a, a chance that you'll meet somebody new, right?

Yeah.

Make a decision for yourself up front. How much am I going to be willing to do this? I'm going to be drinking tonight, so you know what, categorically I'm not going home with anybody. Maybe I'll have a kiss, but that's it. And I'm setting that rule for myself, right? And just give yourself a, a framework to work within so that you don't get yourself into— I mean, listen, we've all had that situation where we are, are sort of trying to navigate our own, uh, you know, we're drunk or high and we can't sort of figure out what it is that we want. You know, I want that taco, but maybe it's not the best time to have the taco, so to speak. And, and so there's a little bit of taking personal responsibility and also really knowing yourself and being deeply connected to yourself so that you can access what it is and where you are and not just sort of like run away with some behavior that you may regret later. The other thing is, is that I just also want to acknowledge, I mean, I've been in a situation where I've had to like talk my way out of being raped.

Yeah.

You know, with someone I knew. Um, and it's terrifying. Yeah, yeah, absolutely terrifying.

Yeah, yeah. Now I tried to talk myself out of that situation and I wasn't successful, so that's That also is terrifying. Well, I think it's also worth pointing out, just as we close, that this, this topic is not exclusively about women. These are, you know, I know men that have felt that they've been pressured by women into having sex with them when they didn't want to and really felt ashamed and terrible in the morning and said, I never should have done that, that was a mistake, what was I thinking? And, you know, sometimes again there was alcohol involved or there were things being asked that they weren't comfortable with. And I know lots of, you know, again, there are lots of women out there experimenting, trying out new things, and you have to find the person that is, is keen to do that with you consensually. Because often in these scenarios, you will find— I, I mean, I know I've, I've been with partners where we've had that discussion and they're like, I don't want to do that, it's not my thing and I'm not going to do that. So that's it, right?

And I think what you're speaking to also is that, or, or sort of indirectly, is, is something that's called clinically, that's called non-concordance, where it's like a, you know, a woman— I've heard men say this— well, she was wet.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, just because her body is responding doesn't mean that there's consent there. And for men, it's really, really difficult because sometimes their body, they'll get an erection when they do. I mean, their body is responding to stimulation. It doesn't mean that, that, that's, you know, they have a brain in their head, not in their penis.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So it goes both ways, and I think the checking in with yourself is a really good tip in just practicing being able to say no in everyday situations And then being able to say no in situations that might be a little more confrontational, uncomfortable, and then eventually getting to the point where you feel like you can say no and you can make a decision, you know, a completely conscious decision with clarity and without feeling, oh, I'm going to let that person down. I know they're going to hate me forever. And oh, I bet they're not going to like me anymore. It's like you just have to get over that and go, it doesn't matter. I'm being clear. I need to be in a relationship where I can be clear with the other person, full stop, you know.

Yes, yes, 100%.

So there we go. Consent. Yes, no, maybe, perhaps.

You never mind. I changed my mind.

I changed my mind. You have a choice. Just remember that you have a choice. This is Suzanne Noble, and this is Zoe Noble, and we're gonna say goodbye now.

Bye-bye!