Episode 67: Talkin' Dirty

Hello, I'm Suzanne Noble, and I'm Zoe Noble, and you are listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. God, it's like episode 652 or something. Unbelievable we've been able to keep this going for so long. Now, I don't know what number we are on, but it's It's quite a significant number. Anyway, we thought today we would talk about dirty talk, and it was kind of prompted by a date that I had recently in which I didn't really like all my kind of swinging/sex dates. I never have much expectation. I'm like, it could go well, it could not go well, you know, let's just see. Anyway, met up with this Irish guy, and he was age-appropriate and quite sexy and fun, and we went back to his place. And, you know, we got down to it and he was a relentless narrator, you know, just nonstop narration, nonstop from beginning to end, just had to tell me all the things he was doing and stuff like that. And at one point he did the thing that I absolutely hate, which is my, it's kind of my please, please do. And I stopped and I said, 'You can't say that,' which was, 'Hey baby, I'm gonna make you cum.' Like, 'Cum for me, cum for me, baby, cum for me.' You know, it was all that sort of thing. And I just went, 'No, no, no, you have to stop because I'm an older woman. It takes me ages. It's an enormous amount of pressure. Please don't. You can say lots of stuff that is quite horny, but just don't say that because I don't wanna hear that.' But the thing was, the narration was so, relentless that even though it was quite horny, I also found I was getting quite distracted by it. And there was no way I was going to have an orgasm. And I'd had something to drink anyway, so I knew that wasn't going to happen. But I also knew that on top of that, there was just too much stuff. It was just too much.

There's a point at which, you know, there's a point that there— I have had situations where I love a little bit of dirty talk. Like, you know, I love that. And I have a, I have a particular flavor of dirty talk, which we can get into that. If it's, if it's what really suits me, it can be a really great enhancer. Yeah, very sexy and very effective. I have definitely had people where I'm like, you're not even here with me. You're just narrating the porn film that you really wish you were watching.

Yes, exactly, exactly.

And so then it can serve to bring you closer and increase the level of intimacy, or it can, you know, really drive a wedge. Um, it doesn't— yeah, so it sounds a little like this guy, you know, I agree about the 'come for me, baby.' It's like, I don't come for anybody else. This is not a performance for your benefit.

Yeah, and, and, and it's so— and it's so much about them when they do that. I don't like it. But I think also the thing about dirty talk, as you recognize, is that it can feel really porny, you know? It can feel like you're just taking an extract from a porn film and you're just substituting me in place of Veronica Jones or whoever. And, and I'm just not— yeah, I'm, I'm kind of there and I'm kind of not. I remember I'm more of a silence kind of person, if I'm really honest with myself. And sometimes a little bit of just little gentle prompting every once in a while in between the silence, I find really super horny, super horny. But yeah, yeah, it's the narration. So what you said, you did a workshop on this, Zoe, and I'm keen to understand, like, what did pe— what, what was that about?

Yeah, um, so during the pandemic, um, I spent, I spent the pandemic, uh, for 4 years, so actually a couple, a year before, and then And then the years of the pandemic, working with a sexual wellness app called Coral, like the color, C-O-R-A-L, or the reef. And it's— you can get it in the— it still exists. Our work in earnest on it has completed, but it's in the App Store, wherever you buy your apps. And so during the pandemic, one of the things that we did, which I love doing, is we gave— we provided workshops, like free complimentary workshops with your subscription to Coral. You get to attend all these workshops. And we did them on like Tuesday nights and covered a variety of topics. And one of my favorite things to do is to provide like guided pleasure sessions. So I would do a lot of that as well, you know, where the attendees, like, they're not on camera. They have their privacy. I can't see or hear them, and they can't see or hear each other, but we're all together in the Zoom room, and I guide them through self-pleasure or, you know, mutual pleasure in various forms.

Sounds hot.

Yeah, it was, it was great, and people loved it. And it's so— it's— I love being able— it's like Cyrano almost, you know, because I get to sort of have— my very favorite thing to do is to be in a man's ear when he's making love to a woman, you know, because I can guide him to all kinds of things that she might really respond to that he wouldn't know to do. And but the— we also did more workshop style. It wasn't all guided pleasure. And so one of the things we did by request, we had, we had some users ask about dirty talk. And how to do it and how to explore it. So the first thing that I suggest is that we get really comfortable using words and establish a vocabulary that you really like, that really works for you, and also be able to check in with a partner if it's someone that you're with that you don't know. If it's somebody that you, you know, you're in an ongoing relationship with, you, you could have this conversation up front, or you could play with it, but And if it's an established relationship, if you say something or use a term that, that your partner doesn't like, it's not so sort of devastating, right? If it's somebody brand new and you say the wrong word and then it's total vibe crusher, a weenie shrinker. So, so, so, you know, exploring what words work for you, like I, I I'm fine if a man refers to my vagina as a pussy. I'm fine with that.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm not— there are some other words that, you know, begin with a C, for instance, that I'm not— it doesn't do it for me. Like, I have a reaction to that word.

Yeah, yeah.

Some women love it. So I have a lot of women, a lot of feminist women, who really actually love that word. For me, it just has a— it stops me. It brings me sort of like, um, okay, so, so there's that. Like, am I gonna— am I gonna say penis? Am I gonna say dick? Am I gonna say cock? Like, what am I gonna— how am I gonna sort of express what I want? And what words work for me that I'm not gonna sort of giggle or feel self-conscious? And then practice saying those words. Like, for everybody listening right now, like, say out loud, say the word pussy. Yeah, yeah. Say the— say, you know, and so, um, so you get comfortable saying the word.

I'm, I'm with you on the C word. It's not like a really favorite word of mine. I, you know, I'm not, I'm not that comfortable with that word. Pussy, I think it's okay. There's not— let's face it, there's not a lot of words for vulva and vagina and stuff that are that are super hot. So yeah, and of course you may invent one of your own, you know. You could, you could, you can invent a little word for whatever you want to call your intimate areas. Yes, Harry, Genevieve.

Mine is Samantha.

Samantha, why not?

Junior high, I named it. And my friend Andrea named hers Bianca. I haven't seen her in decades, but we are connected on Facebook. I could ask her if she still— if she remembers that and still named Bianca.

I don't— I can't remember having a name for mine, to be honest. I probably— actually, I probably did, but I've forgotten it.

But yeah, yeah, or, you know, I mean There are people who— I have a friend actually who loves dirty talk but really wants to hear the anatomical, like wants to hear vagina and wants to hear like, I'm gonna put my penis in your vagina. That's really hot for her.

I know, right? Well, it's like you said, it's about establishing the vocabulary. If that's what your thing is, that's what your thing is. I mean, as long as the person that you're with doesn't go, that makes me really uncomfortable, then you're okay, right?

Yeah. Yes. So one of the things to think about and a place to start is by, by what you say, like narrating what's happening, you know, and, and how good it feels, you know, how happy you are and how turned on you're getting by what's actually happening in the moment. The other thing is to think about describing what you would do to somebody else and of course what you want them to do to you. Those are sort of the three, like the three categories of what you would be saying, actually, you know. Yeah. And if you separate it out that way, you know, the sort of like it's easier as a beginner to start experimenting with just saying what's happening. Yeah. And saying and, and sort of sharing with your partner the levels of arousal that you're actually feeling. So that can be quite educational as well, you know.

Yeah. And, and look, just saying to somebody, that feels really good. Or it feels really good when you do this to me, like you said, can be— for me, it's a way of letting somebody know because I'm not very noisy. I tend to be pretty quiet. It's just every once in a while I feel like I need to, I need to let them know I'm not asleep and I'm not dead. I'm just not. I'm just not. I don't, you know, I'm just— I just get into my space. Space, my sexual energy space, and I don't— and it kind of fills up the room, and I don't feel like the need to express every single thing that's going on. But every once in a while, I, I do say something just so that they know, yeah, that's working for me, you know, that's okay. Um, and, you know, and on the flip side, like I said, it's telling somebody what you'd like to do to them or what And look, I do find that slightly— that's— that telling somebody what they want to do to them, it's really also about communicating your desire. But to me, sometimes people tell me what they want to do and I don't want them to do that. And that's uncomfortable. That's one of those uncomfortable conversations, especially when it comes to pain. Because I meet a lot of people these days who seem to want to do stuff that's quite painful, and I'm not, I'm not that into it.

Are you talking about like, like, like kink?

Yeah, like, you know, like I want to spank you really hard, or they do, or they just like, they get all involved. Like this guy got quite involved and then he whacked me and I was like, like, do didn't actually, wasn't ready for it, didn't actually feel very good. And well, it was just really unexpected, quite painful. And I was just like, whoa, you know, like, not, it's kind of not really my thing. And he's like, oh, sorry, I just got a bit carried away.

But it's, you know, it's, you know, it's a It's so interesting. I love to be spanked, but I am outraged by someone— like, the idea of someone spanking me, or vicariously you, without consent for that, you know? Yeah, I think you just spring on someone. It's like, how do you feel about impact play? How do you feel about, you know, does this work for you? Why aren't these conversations— I mean, this is just this guy, but like We should be teaching people that how to talk about our preferences up front. You know, some people love dirty talk, some people don't love dirty talk. I love dirty— well, I love dirty talk in a certain vein. Yeah, what I don't like at all is humiliation. No, not interested in that kind of talk, like, you dirty slut kind of thing. I had a friend in college. There was this guy, I know his name, I'm not going to say it. He had a very, he had two last names as a, as a, like his, his first name was a last name. We used to call him the guy with two last names. And he was gorgeous. Like just, he looked like an Abercrombie and Fitch model. Like he was just gorgeous. And you could tell he got a lot of sex just because he's so damn gorgeous. And he slept with a friend, started sleeping with a friend of mine. And she was a little bit horrified because he was all into that sort of degradation and call her and really put in. And it really didn't work for her. She was very torn. So shocking because he was like a super nice guy in real life. He was very generous and loving, and but then they'd get in bed and that's what he needed to— oh, Suzanne, I don't know. It's, uh, yeah, we need to have conversations about these things.

I— and you, you know, listen, I suspect that when you're in alternative lifestyles like the swinging scene, like kink or whatever, there's some sort of assumptions that people just make that just aren't necessarily true. And for me, like, don't hit me hard before— unless I, um, ask— say that's okay. And also, you know, yeah, I mean, I did say some of the stuff around degradation, and yeah, I mean It's always interesting when people get into that space. Sometimes things do go a little bit beyond where you are, but equally for me, sometimes I'm so involved, I'm just like, whoa, okay, we're just gonna, you know, it just sort of passes me by. And I, and I can get carried away, and, you know, and I can, like, in this instance, the dirty talk and stuff was all part of the kind of fun, but then What I've noticed about myself, and I don't know if this is true of other people, but I've certainly noticed it about myself, and, and I've noticed it as an older woman. It's something that I've discovered is that when I get into a situation where I'm really— where the energy is really high and there's a lot of pleasure and, you know, stuff's going on like dirty talk, like spanking and all of that, and but I'm sort of in the flow, I can get to a point where I get really— that attachment starts happening, that endorphin attachment where, where I think, God, this is really nice and this feels really good and I'd like to do this again. Right.

Yeah.

In that way that when I was younger, that, that feeling might last for weeks sometimes.

Right.

I'd be carrying on this like endorphin high for weeks. But I find now I can basically almost time it by 72 hours. So, so day one, I'm like still living on the high of the rush and all of the excitement. Then I start reflecting on some of the activities that I went on and how much I actually really did enjoy them and how much of it was kind of driven by the energy and the excitement and the first date energy. And, and all of that sort of stuff and feeling wanted and all the nice things that go along when you meet someone and there's, there's a connection. And then by day 2, I'm starting to have a little bit more analysis around all of it and thinking, some of that wasn't maybe not so great. And yeah, did I really like, like that relentless narrative of dirty talk? Really? Like, given my given my preferences, like, is that really what I want? And then by day 3, I'm kind of like going, yeah, I actually don't know if I want that again.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's like 72 hours. It's my 72-hour thing. And I, and I think—

I love that you've nailed it down. And I'm, I'm coaching people a lot to get to know themselves and that there's a whole chapter of my book called The Attachment Myth. Right, how women are that— for if I had a dime, right, for every woman who ever said to me, you know, my heart is in my vagina, or once I have slept with someone, then I'm like, you know, or I can't enjoy sex if I'm not emotionally involved.

Yeah.

And I'm like, yeah, wow, that's not true. I mean, that is true for you, I understand, but it's not You know, people want to tell me that they're hardwired that way and it's like, no, no, that's an operating system.

Yeah. And this one made it go on for longer because he started calling me a lot and telling me how hot and sexy and horny he was. Right. So, so I realized that he could draw out the 72 hours a bit longer.

Yeah.

By just keeping, keeping the dopamine hits happening. Like, every text, every text message, every phone call with his cute little voice was, was like another dopamine hit. And then I realized, oh, wait a minute, he's not really available. He's not around. He's not going to be— he's not going to be here for the weekend. He just ditched me for a French woman that he fucks every once in a while, in— who's married or whatever. And, you know, he started telling me this, and so I started— so the dopamine hits started to get, you know, reduced until where they are now, which is, hey mate, you know what, if I see you again, I see you, and if I don't see you, I don't see you. Like, I've— my— all my— all my dopamine's all used up now. I'm not— I'm not in the zone anymore because—

yeah, yeah, it's It's pretty fascinating. I— so for people who have clicked on this podcast, there's a lot of information because I'm tempted to go down a road right now about how people hide behind dirty talk as a way of not being intimate and vulnerable.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And so when you keep it at a level, like the talk can keep it at a level of like hotness or, you know, that sort of like you know, excitement. Um, they're not allowing the real intimacy, the slow, the slow down, the, um, you know, it's sort of a front.

Yeah.

And, and that's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just what it is, right?

Yeah.

And so, um, it's good to name that perhaps, but, but Also, dirty talk can be really exciting. And if it's— if you're curious to try it and a little bit nervous or feel silly saying those things that you imagine you're going to need to say, you can like practice. Start with just like a little bit, you know, and you can start outside the bedroom, you know, whisper into— if you've got a partner, whisper into your partner's ears that you want to feel them inside of you, or I want to be inside of you, you know, or I want to— I can't wait to smell you, or like— and one of the things that's kind of always safe— I mean, nothing's always safe, but most women, if you're a dude and you want to, and you love dirty talk, and you want to start to play with that with your partner. Just tell her how beautiful she is and get into some detail, you know. Yeah, get into detail about how delicious you find her genitals, you know. That's a really good, safe way, as opposed to, you know, you dirty whore. Like, how about, you know, that beautiful succulent peach between your legs? Like, that's a much better bet to get started.

Yeah, that's a really, really good point because you can be— I mean, dirty talk can be, can be sexy and gentle. It doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be porn, porn derivative, and, and kind of, you know, like you say, degrading. Because that's— I suppose that's the thing, right, is that often when I think of it, I think of myself in that situation as the submissive, and I think of myself in that way as the person who's being told what to do. And yeah, and, and there's a— and there is an element of sometimes of— there's definitely a power dynamic there around I'm in control, you know. But look, I'm an older woman and I don't want anybody to say to me, oh, you're a dirty slut, aren't you? Because obviously I am. So that's kind of fucking stupid because it's blatantly apparent. I, you know, I wouldn't have the amount of casual sex I do if I wasn't kind of built in a slightly different way than those people who live with their Cinderella fantasy, you know. I'm just not, I'm just not like that. I, I, I like first date energy and, you know, and, and a bit of, and a bit of variety. So that's— so sometimes when people say things like that, I think, oh, come on, really? I mean, A, I'm not 25 years old. B, I'm a bit older. C, you know, like, I've got a lot of experience, so just shut up.

Yeah, just shut up.

Yeah, I have told people to shut up before and just went, shh, shh, shh, be quiet, be quiet, because now you're just distracting me, you know.

Yes. Yeah.

And also, yeah, and also, you know, The thing is, some people love the talk, but I realized that I, I love the action. I just like, I just like people that actually step up and do stuff. And sometimes for me, the dirty talk hides some other inadequacies that they might have.

Well, I'll tell you something. I had a situation years ago where I was communicating with someone through JDate.

JD.

Yeah. It's a Jewish dating site. This is, this is a long time ago. I mean, it's well over 10 years ago, probably closer to 20 years ago. Um, and he reached out to me. He had lived very close to me in California and then had moved to Miami and was living in Miami. And I, I questioned him like, why are you? Why are you reaching out? And he said, well, I do go back and forth a little bit. And so we ended up having a relationship— relationship— we had an ongoing phone sex. And we did that for several times. And so there was a lot of talk because when you're having phone sex, it's all dirty talk. I mean, it's all right. Like that's all there is really talking to each other and one or the other of you or, or both of you. Right. And, um, and he described all kinds of things to me that sounded really fabulous. Like it was really, he was really good. Gorgeous also, like my type. Um, and so then I was going to a conference in Florida and visiting my aunt, friends in Miami. And so then I went and I actually stayed with him. He was like, I have this gorgeous house and Um, come stay with me, I'll treat you like a princess, is what he told me. Well, we got that. I got there and there was all that amazing sex that he described to me. It wasn't happening.

Oh God, I mean, we had—

we did have sex and it didn't— it was like, what happened? Wait, this isn't like you described it would be. You know, it was, there is a little bit of that. There is a little bit of like, wait a minute. How were you? You couldn't wait to do X, Y, and Z with me. And now like what? There's none of that happening. I ended up packing up and leaving, like thanking him because it was also really hard to talk to him outside the bedroom. Oh my God. Like there wasn't really actually a rapport there. And so I, I did. I packed up. He was at work the next day and I left his key under the, under the vase and by the front door and just wrote him a lovely thank you note and said, I'm going to head out early and stay with some other friends and stuff. Yeah.

Yeah, that's really awkward. I've had that as well. And I think that's also fairly typical is that you can get yourself so wound up right, by all of this. And again, because, because I'm old, is, is that I used to, I used to spend months getting wound up by people in long-distance scenarios. And now, I mean, really, I don't really want to travel beyond an hour to get to anyone. I live in a big city. There's a lot of people here. Like, why I don't need to travel to another country to have sex. That's ridiculous. Now that I've realized that, and I realized that actually, if you're living in the same city as me and you're spending all your bloody time on the phone, why aren't you getting on the underground and coming to see me? What's all that about? Like, why are you wasting all my time on the telephone telling me all this shit when you're just like 10 stops on the underground away. You should be saying, you know what, I'm going to get on the underground right now. Let's get off the phone and let's like fuck each other's brains out. No, it's just nonsense. Nonsense. Dirty talk on the phone, which makes me think you're, you know, this— come on, this is crazy. This is nonsense. And I, and I think that there's a lot of people, especially, well, of all ages actually, who get really wrapped up in these long-distance conversations which have a lot of dirty talk involved, sexting, you know, phone sex, all of that sort of thing. And then it's not uncommon you meet in person and they are a complete disappointment because it's almost impossible to live up to the fantasy that you've now created with which is so overblown and, you know, beyond anything that you're probably ever even experienced. So yeah, I take all of this stuff with a pinch of salt. So yeah, for me, dirty talk in small doses, and for you, dirty talk, but gotta be the right kind.

Yeah. That's right. Right.

So, so don't take any of this stuff for granted. Talk to your partner. Tell him your peach is delicious and go from there.

I prefer the word succulent. Succulent.

Succulent. Succulent's a good word. Succulent. Delicious. Either word. It's good. It's good, really. Anyway, Zoe, have a lovely, lovely day in Los Angeles. I am heading out to nowhere, actually. I'm gonna, I'm gonna have a chill. So it's goodbye from me.

And goodbye from me.