Episode 68: Seeking a partner in later life

Hi, I'm Suzanne Noble, and I'm Zoe Noble, and you are listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. And we thought we would talk about today what we should be looking for in later life, because I hear from a lot of women that seem to be seeking what they were seeking in their 20s and, and feeling disappointed that they're not able to find that one romantic kind of be-all end-all partner and frustrated by the apps, which there's been a news report are, are declining in popularity. I don't know if you read that, but Match.com lost a huge amount off its share price. People are leaving the apps. They're not feeling that they're delivering for them. I can totally understand that. And but they're wondering, where am I going to find this kind of perfect person that they think they should be looking for? So that's what I thought we could talk about.

I love that. And one of the things that occurs to me is that, I mean, maybe I'm— maybe this is a spoiler alert and I'm jumping to the end, but we'll see. My feeling is always that we have such a very limited, in Western culture, Europe or United States, we have such a limited set of options for what we are conditioned to believe is acceptable, that we should want. And so, you know, a lot of that is, I mean, really it's kind of entirely based on lifelong pair bonding and our economy is set up to support that. And we parent that way. And, you know, that's kind of economically socioeconomic landscape really dictates that we, you know, I don't know what's chicken and egg here, but, you know, that we live a certain way and that we partner a certain way. You and I have not lived that way.

No. And, and, and this past week I held this thing called the Advantages of Age Awards, which was celebrating people and organizations championing positive aging. And the room was full of very colorful people, primarily because we asked them to dress flamboyantly. But what was clear from the room, the people in the room, was that a lot of us were outsiders and we'd chosen to live outside the norm. And that's part of the ethos of our Advantages of Age organization, is that the sort of punks of aging is that championing a different way to go about aging. And I think that as part of that, we can think differently about relationships as we age. And I suspect that because of our conditioning and because of societal expectations, we don't really consider the broader view of what a relationship might look like in later life. And so as a result, we end up feeling frustrated by not being able to get what we think we should be looking for.

Right.

You know, and I know that part of the— for me, one of the aspects of being in alternative lifestyles such as swinging and things like that is that people do have a much different perception of what a relationship, casual or otherwise, might look like. And I'm drawn to those lifestyles because I can be somebody else than I was in my marriage, where, you know, I was bringing up kids, I was doing, you know, I was doing all the stuff that, as you say, you do when you're younger and you're looking for a and I'm not looking for those things anymore. But I know that people find the way that I do these relationships quite challenging. Not, by the way, not the men that I'm with. I don't think they find them challenging at all. I think— no, no, I think, I think they find it quite refreshing that I don't give them any brain damage and that I'm not seeking anything from them beyond having a nice time when we have a nice time. And that's about it, really.

Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm married now. Um, we met 7 years ago, December 2016. Uh, what is that?

Yeah. Like 7 years ago.

Yeah. We met 7 years ago, um, when I was 52. And, um, so I had had a long stint there of being very, of living more of a lifestyle that you live and was happy to do so. In fact, I was really, really resistant and hesitant to get into a relationship, but it's something my husband really— my now husband really wanted was a committed partnership. He wanted a partner. Uh, and, and I honor that. There's nothing wrong with that. He had, he actually had done quite a bit of work on himself and he, you know, has a, he'd been married twice and his second wife died of cancer. And so he'd been through a lot. He lived a lot. And, and he really wanted a, you know, a buddy, a companion.

And it's when I was thinking about this topic in the middle of the night, which is when I woke up and wrote it down, I was thinking about the fact that for a lot of people, and I think I would include myself in this, is that sometimes what I miss in not being in a committed relationship are those more intimate moments with somebody, or the companionship aspects of a relationship, or the tenderness that you get from having a partner where you can just hold hands or cuddle or do, you know, partner-y type things. And sometimes I think, okay, what, you know, I think about that. I do think about that. But I also know that I can, that there are intimate moments in my casual relationships as well, um, which make up for that full-time companionship thing, which I'm, which I'm not very good at.

Well, the other piece of it is, is that it's really, you know, it's easy to romanticize all of that sort of companionship and affection. And but, you know, you also are spared the sort of nitty gritty of relationship maintenance and negotiation of needs and miscommunications. And, you know, I mean, like, come on now. It's a trade-off no matter what. I mean, I feel that way about so many things in life and particularly relationship because I'm so immersed in the world of relationship. But it's like, there's no one way. I have a lot of people asking me about opening up their relationship and becoming poly and ethical non-monogamy and, you know, and then I have a lot of people who are sort of appalled at that idea, or one partner wants to try it and the other partner's not game. Of course, that won't work. But You know, it's like there's no right way that you can do it however you do it. And so, and there are benefits and drawbacks to everything in life. You know, I felt that way when I was a graphic designer in a previous professional incarnation. And I was like, you know, I just want to freelance. I want the freedom that it gives me. And then the financial instability, unpredictability would drive me crazy. And then I'd take a staff position and then I felt like I was in jail. And so then I freelance again and then I miss the paycheck and then I go back, you know, I feel that way about my relationships.

Yeah. And look, there are some— there's scientific evidence that single women, especially I suspect older single women, are happier than women, especially in long-term relationships. Men on the flip side are happier in stable relationships than they are scientifically proven in, in, in their single life. And I mean, the evidence is, you know, why, why wouldn't you as a single woman not want to leave behind all some of, some of the crap that, let's face it, comes with sometimes being in a heteronormative relationship, which often involves having to do the cooking or having to do the cleaning? You know, not everybody because I know men that love cooking, and, and, but I suspect that for the majority, certainly the ones I've met, they— I find myself very quickly being domesticated, and that's partly why I have been so resistant to being in a relationship, is because I fall into that pattern of behavior whether or not I even want to. I just do. It just happens, you know, from years of being a mother and doing all of that stuff. I just end up being a domesticated, boring old person. And I just don't— and I reflect on that and think, when I start to feel that level of discomfort with somebody, I know I'm not happy and I know I need to step back and reevaluate why I'm suddenly being led back into this world and, and how happy that makes me feel, which is, which is not very happy. Yeah, but, but I know that, you know, there are a lot of— there's— and I also know that there's a lot of women that, that struggle not just with this desire for this kind of romanticized version of relationships, but also with, with the aspect of their libido not being what it once was. And so the expectation is I may have this lovely romantic relationship with someone who hopefully doesn't want to have sex with me very often. And I, and I, and I think that's hard to find.

Yeah. So So how do we figure out what it is that we want?

That's a good question. How do we figure out what we want?

I think— I mean, I think that gosh, Suzanne Noble Noble people sometimes roll their eyes at me because they really don't wanna have the the level of the depth of conversation that I inspire, that I require to have. It's like, oh God, here we go. Well, you know, I think that you have to sort of like, look, you brought it up. You mentioned when we were chatting before we started recording, you mentioned that especially as we get older and we're no longer like the kids are adults if we have them and and we're in bodies that allow us to sort of let go of— we're at an age where we're not so concerned about the perfect body or the way we— all of that. We have an opportunity, and many women do, like, let go of the idea of finding that perfect mate. Right. We don't need the perfect mate anymore. And many of us are financially, you know, independent. We don't need to depend on a second income from our partner. So then it becomes about like, well, what do I want? Do I want companionship? Do I want sex? Do I want to leave the companionship for my close friends? You know, there's a level of like some of that intimacy that gets fulfilled in friendships, um, you know, that, that kind of human connection. And then the sex can be fulfilled, uh, by a partner, but it doesn't necessarily need to be a big committed relationship. So the question really is, why partner? What would I hope to gain from that? And if I were in my 20s, 30s, I might be looking for a suitable partner, mate for building a family, you know, and, and gaining wealth. I mean, it's almost like a business endeavor in a sense. That romantic. Yeah.

Um, and many, many people, especially women again, seem to find their— I know I did my female friendships in my 50s. Started to become much, much more important to me than they were in my younger days when I was all about the guys. And now most of my friendships are with women, although my best friend is a man. And but I think having those deep friendships with women and those connections and that, that, you know, those bonds that I now have with women means that my requirement to have that with a man is, is Yes, and I don't need him to do that for me because I've got women that fulfill that role. And I, and I know that for me, when I'm looking for somebody again to do— if I'm looking for somebody to do all of that, I'm just not going to find that person. You know, nobody knows me like my old friends do, or people that have known me for— you know, it's like you have to start all over again with somebody explaining your history to them, getting them to discover all this stuff about you, which some people love, but I just think, oh, I've got to tell 5 million stories all over again. Oh, here we go again. So yeah, I think we can look at people for the value that they bring to us and we bring to them. And I know that seems really transactional, But I do kind of feel that way when I'm, you know, when I'm with somebody, a man especially, like, how much value is this adding to my life and how much value do I want to add to their life? And mainly, you know, the longer I get to know them, often the more I discover about them that just disappoints me. So I just think, let's just leave this in the little box that it works for me. You know?

Yeah.

And I, and I think that's the other thing is that if you are, I mean, I do disagree with you about the body thing because I have spent, it's taken me 2 years. I worked out, it's taken me maybe longer than 2 years actually. It's taken me over 2 years to get to the, to the size and the body that I'm, that I really like. And I'm now quite like people are looking at me and going, oh, you're really small. I've never really considered myself as a small person. Men respond to me differently because my— I'm like in shape and it's clear I spend some time doing that. And, and the other day when I was walking around, I felt light. And that lightness, I realized like that lightness, um, it sort of is like this overarching thing now that, that I— that infuses everything. Like when I have sex, I feel light and it's different.

Yeah.

Like when someone holds me, I feel like they're holding on to something solid and not, not like really fleshy, which some people love, but I really like that feeling of being really solid. And I feel that when they grab me, and I'm like, oh, I really like this fit. But it's, it's really a concerted effort on my part to do that. And I've realized that my body confidence makes me feel more sexual, makes me feel more attractive. It takes work, but once you actually get there, it's just maintenance. And actually, it makes me feel different about relationships because feeling desirable and attractive means that I have more choice.

Yeah, that's right.

And when you have more choice, you're not so desperate because you're just like, I can take this or leave this. Like, it's, you know, I'm in the— I'm present in the world in a different way. It's taken me a huge amount of effort and time and desire, which is another thing. But being an older woman and feeling desirable is something that's important to me. And I know it's not important to everybody, but it is important to me.

And so for both of that, you know, there are a whole lot of people who, who operate that way. And to be really honest with you, I mean, I think that all of us want to feel desired in some fashion, you know, for some of us that are more sexually based, you know, that are more sexually expressed, you know, and that's a bigger part of our operating system. I think feeling desired is part of that and feeling that feeling, you know, the ref— the having your desirability sort of reflected back to you can be really life-affirming, you know.

Yeah. I mean, again, if you want, if you want to design your life the way you want to design it in later life and you want to be a sexual person, then you have to acknowledge as an older woman that you're competing in a big pool of desirable people, most of whom are younger than you and therefore automatically more desirable because that's the way biology works, right? I mean, you know, so, so people who are still procreating generally are more desirable than people who have stopped.

Right. From a leftist theory, uh, from a, you know, psychology science standpoint, absolutely.

You know, I mean, you know, I don't think I'm saying anything radical here, although people might think I am. I don't know. But if that's part of your landscape as an older person redesigning your life, then you have to, then you have to work out how you're going to stay in the game. Whereas if you decide that you don't want to be in the game, then you can, you can do what you want. You can, if you want to not give a shit what you eat and, you know, settle into your body in a different way, that's absolutely fine. But, you know, heteronormative relationships do become more difficult as you age if you don't maintain yourself, sadly. I mean, that's just— I know plenty of people who like other, you know, bigger sizes, whatever. And there's always somebody out there for everybody. But I do know that it becomes easier when you are of a certain size and harder when you're not. That's it. But, you know, that's it.

But the other piece of it, too, is that, like, if you are someone who is attracted to people who, take care of themselves. And that can mean a million different things. It can mean grooming, it can mean hair, it can mean, you know, the way you dress, the way you present yourself. If you're someone who is attracted to that, you want to present that. Plus, it's not just for dating, you know. Like, right now I have not put in the 2 years that you have put in, and I'm carrying about 15 pounds, 15, 20 pounds of like pandemic menopause weight that is hard to shed at this point. And it really does take that extra concerted effort that I haven't made. And it's not just sex that it affects. It's, you know, walking, going to a dinner party, walking through the store, you know. I mean, like, I'm not as comfortable in my body. And part of that is like my joints hurt more, and part of it is I don't— my clothes don't fit. And part of that is like, you know, I don't have that pep in my step.

Yeah, it does get easier if it makes you feel any better when you get to the other side.

Yeah, I actually—

This has only been when I've got to the other side and during that part that was crap. So just wait a few years and it does, well, it seemed to me to get easier. I had to—

Well, I'll tell you something.

I had to get to the other side first.

Well, I started doing Pilates about 6 months ago, 4 or 6 months ago, and it was amazing how quickly it— Yeah, it's like, I mean, it really didn't take that many sessions, you know, that many Pilates sessions to really feel the difference. I mean, yeah, no more joint pain at all whatsoever. And I have way more stamina and feel stronger. I mean, it's pretty amazing. It's not like I have to remind myself not like you go 2 years and then all of a sudden you can flip the switch and feel good. No, no, it's incremental.

Yeah, yeah. No, for sure. But yeah, I mean, you know, like I said, it's, it's— you can rethink your relationships, you can rethink what a partner looks like, you can rethink whether you just want a companion, you can rethink— you can, you know, you can consider as an older person, how you can— and some of it is around financial independence for sure. But when I think about even some of the unhappy marriages that many of my friends seem to exist in, I think, well, what's, what's, what's the alternative to that? You know, Is the alternative that you, you know, that being single is a dreadful, dreadful thing? Or can you redesign your marriage so that you can have something else outside it? Or, you know, maybe people already do. I suspect many people already do that. They just, they just have lots of social stuff going on outside so that the marriage becomes more of a financial partnership than actually anything that has any emotional content. Yeah, you know, but, but yeah, I think that what do you want is a really big question because people don't know what they could have, and that's the issue for me is that they don't know what's possible because they're still thinking about their old, their younger, you know, selves and what they might have had or wanted back then.

Yeah. And I think what is interesting is that I do see a number of people who have, who are, you know, divorced or they've lost a spouse and they find themselves single. And then they have relationships, but they do relationships differently than they did in their 20s and 30s, right? Yeah. So they're, they're single and dating and they end up in like a relationship that feels like it moves slower. There's more intimacy. We're not so blinded by sex. We're not trying to figure out. Like the merging of lives or the combining of lives in your 60s, for instance, can look completely different than it did when you were kids, when you were young, right? Where it's like, you know, you already have a wealth of experiences and there isn't so much an interdependence.

That's absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And the people that I know now that are— I'm thinking of one woman in particular who recently got together with someone a bit younger. And I think that's the other thing, of course, is that, you know, the whole age gap, the whole age difference. There's lots of older women now hanging out, going out with men that are younger than them. You know, not, not talking about the sort of Joan Collins age gap or the Cher age gap or the Madonna age gap. We're just talking about the— we're talking about—

we're talking about Lily Collins and her young men.

You know, like the 20-year, you know, like the 10-year age gap, which doesn't seem so significant when you're— if you're in your 60s and you're with somebody in their 50s, it doesn't seem that radical anymore. And that seems to be working for a lot of people that I know who both of them are past the age where they're, they want families and kids. And, you know, the women are very energetic and full of, full of life and, and the men are the same. And so, you know, they're thinking about all of that differently and they seem to be really, really happy in those kind of relationships. So I think also there's that thing of looking at age differences and thinking, well, you know, is 10 years really all that much? If I'm 60-some-odd with somebody in their 50s, like, is it really— is that really a significant difference? Or— so there's, there's that as well. I think there's so many different ways that you can look at it. And it's about being more expansive in your thinking at this age. And, and, and really considering what's important. And sex is or isn't important. You know, and finding someone again, you know, from a sexual point of view. I think the other thing is that now that I'm much more confident around all of that than I was when I was younger, I'm also very clear about, is this person going to work for me in bed? Like, is this really the— what I, you know, the kind of thing that I'm looking for? Because they're quite fixed in at this age as well about how they like having sex. And yeah, right, you know, so, so you meet somebody who's like really dominant or really whatever, and then you think, uh, I don't, you know, I don't know if I want it quite like this.

Yes, and, and yes, to, to, to sex and everything else in their lives, you know, somebody who loads the dishwasher a certain way, or, you know, I mean, that's more easy to accommodate than, than incompatibility and in sex, in the bedroom. But, you know, there's all kinds of things, you know, that, that, um, you know, are not going to change at this point, right? Right. I think too, um, and, and maybe this is just me, um, and, and the people close to me, but I feel as though as we get older, we have a greater capacity to see people for who they are, to really see people who they are and not who we hope that they become.

Yes.

Or they hope— we hope that they turn out to be.

That's right. They're not going to change. I'm not going to change. You're not going to change. That's it.

Yeah.

And I think that's a really, really good point is that we're not, we're not living with that hope that, which is what I did when I was younger. I was like, oh, but he can change. And then I realized 20, you know, 15 years later, oh no, he can't.

Or like, you know, he's such a good guy. Like, he's a really good guy. It doesn't really matter that he doesn't have a sex drive. Maybe that'll change. And, and I, you know, and my— it's, it's, it, it's those things that when you're in your, in your 50s, 60s, 70s, that, um, you can make a much better choice for yourself.

Yeah, yeah. And, and that's why I think, you know, that it's all about recognizing what is, for me, what is what I like about the person and what I'm not so keen on, and whether I can live with the not so keen on that stuff.

Yeah.

And if I can't, then I can't. But if I can, then I'm like, okay, we can, we can work this one out.

Yeah.

Anyway, it's late in LA, it's early in London, and I hope you have a very, very lovely day. That's it for me, Suzanne Noble.

And that's it for me, Zoe Noble.

Thank you.