Episode 72: Kinks & Perversions

Hello, I'm Suzanne Noble, and I'm Zoe Noble, and you are listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. And this week we are going to be talking about unusual perversions, because you know what, there's a lot of them out there. In fact, I've got a whole book of unusual perversions from like 20 or 30 years ago, probably even longer than that, with words to describe these perversions. I don't remember, and I didn't even know there were words for. So, Zoe, let's talk about it.

Yeah, well, what comes to mind, Suzanne? Like, what are some of the ones, like, from the book or from your travels that really stick out to you? I have, I have a couple.

So, okay, so probably the weirdest ones for me, going back to my life, is a guy who wanted me to blow cigarette smoke on his dick. Uh, don't have no idea what that was about.

I don't know, that's sort of sexy. I could see that.

Okay, I mean, it didn't do anything for me, but, um, yeah, that was one. Foot fetishes, I just don't really get them very much. But, you know, they're very common. And I know lots of people who are just totally into shoes, like when, you know, looking at women's feet and just shoes, loads of them. Pissing, again, not— I've, I've, I've been asked to do it. And yeah, and it's just another one that I just think, hmm, seems like a lot of work goes into that to try and dilute the urine and everything. And I just, it was like, who has time for this?

Dilute the urine. And so interesting. I think that most people, that's a very common one, you know, pee play or, you know, golden showers or yeah, very common. And a lot of people just sort of experiment with that in the shower. You know, like, as a, as a form of sort of erotic play, you know, not necessarily in the bed. They do make sheets, of course. Yeah, you can put down, but yeah, and I've had some lovers, one in particular, who was really into it, really. Like, that isn't a turn-off for me. I mean, there are so many different ways to talk about kinks like this, and Usually when someone has an unusual or strong kink, it isn't necessarily like— it's great if you can find two partners who are really turned on by, you know, urination and things like that, or toe sucking or whatever. It's great when you meet your, like, your counterpart, the two puzzle pieces like fit together. But very often someone's kink is not a turn-on for their partner, and then you've got to figure out how to handle that. And my— I always, with clients, try to, try to determine whether or not that kink is a turn-off, whether it's something that you can do even though you're not really turned on by it, but you can tolerate it. Or if it's turning you off, then, then we have to figure out how to, you know, how to accommodate that need.

Yeah, definitely. And what we're— I think for me as well, it's like, it depends how committed I am to that person. If I'm not that committed, and they just want to do it and play around, like, look, I understand, like, going to the toilet in front of somebody, taking a pee can be kind of horny. I get that. But like peeing in someone's mouth for me, not really so horny at all. But I, you know, and so I don't, and especially because the person in this case that was asking me to do that was actually a boyfriend who was really quite into it. And so he really tried to get me to, to, you know, he was really encouraging me to drink lots of water.

Yeah. Yeah.

And do things like that. And I just thought, I just really just want to have sex with you. I don't really want to like drink 5 liters of water so that I can then put a sheet down, a plastic sheet down on the floor so that you can, you know, like I just wasn't, there's too much theater around all of it. I suppose that's the thing. It's like sometimes there's so much theater around all of this kind of stuff that I just get a bit bored with the whole thing. But as a one-off, yeah, I'm okay with that. But yeah, I said, you know, but if it's too goes on. And also, I suppose the other thing about these kinks is, like, for instance, years ago, I had a friend who told me that her partner used to, every time they had sex, he would set up on the bed, like, what he wanted her to wear and put the shoes out and the, and the lingerie and everything. And that would be the signal to her that he wanted to have sex with her. And it started to become very predictable. And she started to resent the predictability of that because it felt like without all of that, he wasn't interested. So that's where for me it becomes, is this everything to you? How important is it to you? Or can we just do this every once in a while? In which case I'm okay with that mostly.

Yeah. Unless it's something that you particularly don't want to do.

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, there are some things that are like, you know, I can't do this. Yeah, sure. You know, so then you turn to the person who has that desire and you have to say, how important is it to you? Because I'm not able to give this to you. And then just in our little chatting, you know, before we hit record today, you brought up a really important, powerful option, and that is outsourcing. You know, like, um, some of the kinks— we'll come back to that, to, to options for outsourcing, um, because I just actually am working with a, with a, um, a couple, and this is, um, they're working through some of this stuff where navigating, you know, what they're, what they're, what each of them want, what they're willing to do for each other, and how to creatively satisfy some of those kinks for each other. And, and I'm like, lose— I have like 10 thoughts trying to work away from my prefrontal cortex to my lips. Okay. Um, so we'll talk about that in a moment, but I want to bring up one of the most interesting, fascinating things that I encountered with a client is that he, first of all, was living a heterosexual life for— he was, uh, I think probably around, if memory serves, he was in his late 30s, maybe he was 40, approaching 40. He had a daughter from a previous marriage and/or relationship, and he was now living with a trans woman who had very large breasts, very like double Ds, I guess, presumably implants. And this person didn't want her to have gender confirmation surgery. So she had his big thing he would say to me is, I want a 9-inch dick and double Ds. Like, that was his thing. And so that was a conversation because his partner really would like to have bottom surgery, and he did, and he was not doing so because they want, you know, so there, that was a situation. But on top of that, on top of all of that, Um, he could only have an orgasm if he had smelly, um, gym shoes near him. He had to be able to smell gym shoes, right? Or he really had trouble having an orgasm.

Oh my God.

So that's a, you know, that's a little bit of a conundrum sometimes. I mean, I guess his partner was fine with that. I don't know if I would really, it depends how strong that had to be, you know, it's certainly I would want my partner to be able to, you know, have whatever they needed to be able to get over the edge. But that was really, I think, the most extreme I've had in my own life. I've had a few people like want to suck my toes, which made me a little gaggy. It's just not my thing, you know. And if I was in a— it's, it's so interesting what you said because I never really sort of worked through it this way because the people who wanted to do that with me were not people I was invested in in terms of a relationship. And so it's easy to sort of say, oh yeah, sure, have a suck. But, um, you know, but if it was something on a regular basis, I I would not be really into it, you know?

No. So, I mean, I'll just tell you my one. It wasn't somebody I even actually met, but it's— this is how, for me, sometimes how extreme things can get. And it's not, it's not like extreme, but it's just a kind of unusual story. So back in the old Craigslist days, when Craigslist used to have lots of crazy personals, Occasionally I would dip in there to see the crazy stuff and to think about, because I just want to have crazy sort of experiences, and Craigslist could always be counted on to deliver that. So one guy, we started exchanging messages, wanted me to show up at his office in an A-line skirt with a slip underneath and tan-colored tights, pantyhose as you call them, um, underneath. And he wanted like kind of big, big underwear. And he—

big underwear, what does that mean?

Like kind of, you know, like matern— you know, like, um, full, full, um, like from the waist, you know, like the kind that you're—

big white cotton grandma panty. We call that grandma panties, right?

Yeah, like that, right? Um, and he wanted me to come to his office to the meeting room and he wanted to have a meeting with me where we were each drinking coffee. And at some point the coffee, I would spill the coffee on my skirt and I would have to take, I would take the skirt off, leaving on the slip, and I would put the skirt over the radiator and then I would carry on with the meeting. And then the meeting would end. And then I would go and put my clothes back on. I was like, okay. And then what happens?

I love the intricacy of the fantasy.

It was really, really involved, this. I mean, it could have even been more involved, but that's what I remember, right? And I just thought sometimes when people share these sorts of things with me, I just think— so I said to him, look, here's the thing. I don't have a slip like that and I don't have a pair of granny pants, so I'm gonna need to go and buy those. And actually I don't have a pair of tan pantyhose either, so I'm gonna need to buy that. So you're gonna need to give me some money to go and buy those things 'cause obviously there's nothing really in this for me. You're gonna have to do that, right? And then it's, as you know, there's really nothing in this for me at all other than my curiosity of your weirdness. About your weirdness. I'm just, I think I should get paid because I'm going to have to take time off work. Right. And he said, and you know, I get, I have a job and I get paid. And so he said, well, what were you thinking? And I said, I don't know. I was thinking about £100. Right. And because I thought I'm going to have to probably, this is going to take it. He didn't, his office wasn't very far. I thought it's going to be a couple of hours though. By the time I get there.

That's a bargain, Suzanne Noble.

It's like nothing, right? Nothing.

Nothing.

So I said, and he said, God, £100, that sounds like quite a lot. I thought, you're nuts. I mean, I'm willing to do this, right? I am willing to do all of this for you just to see where this goes because it's just so crazy. And then he starts bartering with me. Like going, "No, what about £75?" And I was like, "No, it's £100. That's what it is." And he goes, "Oh, you know, I think we'd better leave it." Yeah. But you know, I mean, I've had circumstances like that, not completely similar, but I've had circumstances where I just thought nobody is gonna do this for you unless they get paid. Nobody, okay? Like your partner is not gonna do this for you. Finding your match on this one, it's gonna be really tough, right?

Like, and yeah, I think that there is— yeah, sure, unless he were to— I mean, look, it's part of, part of managing your own sort of kinks and finding somebody who will play with you on that level. I mean, I, I, I know many, many people who have very rich kinky sexual relationships with each other for years at a time, but there's a little bit of like taking ownership of that and, and looking for and finding people in the community who will sort of play on that level and get creative about it, you know. I, I love— one of the things that I really love is that my, my husband, first of all, Have you watched the film Secretary?

Yes, I loved it.

I know, right? It's so wonderful. So for listeners who have not, I highly recommend. It's James Spader and, um, and who is Maggie Gyllenhaal?

Oh, so, so hot.

Incredible, incredible. And they find each other. She works for him, she's his secretary, and they have a very kinky relationship. And it's It's wonderful. It's not— it's a quiet film and it's filmed beautifully. Like, it is just beautiful to watch, to look at. But borrowing from that, one of the things that my husband introduced to me was, was the kind of kink that is like— we went to— he's a Mason, so we go to sometimes to like these events at the Masonic Lodge and there's a place called the Magic Castle in Hollywood. Here's a little story. And so, um, they were having like a Masonic Lodge night at the, at the Magic Castle. And you have to get in. You can't just— nope, not anybody can go to the Magic Castle. You have to know a magician, or you have to like be part of a group that has sort of an in, and then you have this experience. And it— and the Magic Castle is like, they have a dinner area, and then they have all these rooms, and you wander around this beautiful castle in Hollywood, in the Hollywood Hills, and stumble upon all of this magic. And it's not quite the Hogwarts environment, but it's got that flavor to it. You know, it's wonderful. And so we go and he sent me— and we've done this several times. He sent me an email earlier in the day of what I'm to wear. And, and, and really for him, you know, it's like he, he, it's usually involves a string of pearls and dress like you would dress for a grown man to be on, to be out with a grown man. Right. So like there's a lot. So he has that, but he gives me the instructions. And I get to be a little creative. There's room in there for me to be self-expressed. So I don't feel like I'm just, you know, like objectified. And then, um, and then there are rules for the night. Like I can never let his glass get below 3/4 full or 2/3 full. And then I have to call for the person. When I'm eating dinner, if every time I take a bite of a new thing on my plate, I have to look to him. And he'll nod when, if it's okay for me to take a new, a bite of a new thing. There's all these rules like that, you know, like where I can walk, how I can sit, when I could— I can only speak when during dinner, I can only speak unless he speaks first, you know, it's like all of these things. It's hilarious. And it's such a blast. And, and so those kinks and, and Perversions and kinks, the language around it is a little bit different, but like, that kind of play can be so much fun. And what I'm, what I'm sort of putting out there is that sometimes like a need or a kink to be dominant doesn't have to mean that I'm spanking my partner who doesn't want to be spanked. Like, there's a lot of creativity that can go into, you know, figuring out how to create the dynamic. Really what it means is like get to the dynamic, you know.

So what— one thing we haven't talked about, which I thought about and probably we should have spoken about first off, is with some of the more extreme kind of things, where is there— how did those happen?

Yeah, well, I think with the— chances are with my client who, for instance, who had needed to smell sweaty gym socks, gym socks, gym shoes, sneakers for those in the States, that is something that very likely resulted from some sort of a situation that was traumatic or traumatic, or it doesn't even We don't even have to say trauma. It could have been a, you know, a very untraumatic experience where, you know, maybe he had a sexual awakening in a gym locker room or something like that, right? Um, for some people, and, and this is really like, if anybody's listening who sort of needs to hear this, you know, one of the things that is really common and can be so troublesome for people is when they're, when they're the victim of sexual violence and then go on to have fantasies about being violated in that way. And it's really common. It's extremely common. And so, and part of that I think is a sort of the brain's need and the sort of psychology's need to have some control, have some agency over that and take ownership of that experience and that dynamic. So things— kinks can come from trauma. They don't always. Sometimes it's just I have no idea why I like this thing but I like this thing right now and I think Suzanne what's really important is that people whatever you do as long as nobody's getting hurt as long as nobody's like you're not you know inflicting this on someone non-consensually. Um, radical acceptance of whatever you're into, you know, it's okay, it doesn't mean anything.

Um, do you think that, or do you know, or have you experienced that people come to you sometimes with, you know, something, and they, and they they know exactly where it came from, one, and maybe they're not so— they— and it's actually getting in the way of having the kind of sex life that they want. Number one, is that something? And two is, how much do you think porn influences some of these perversions that you may have come across?

Um, the answer to your first question is all the time.

All the time.

Yeah, people come to me. I mean, it's one of the main things. And I think maybe next week we'll talk a little bit more about the world of sex coaching and what a sex coach can do for you. So that's a— we'll go in deeper into that. But yes, I mean, I think people come to me with things that are troubling to them or things that they wish they didn't want or need. And, um, or, or, you know, yes, all the time, like the trauma of I mean, having the experience of having a traumatic experience that leaves an imprint on the way you experience your body and sex. Yeah, for real. And what was the second question?

The second one is, how much do you think of this comes from porn?

Oh, good lord. Well, I sort of see that as its own category. So in, in my work, I, you know, there's— I often refer to like, we have no pleasure-based, pleasure-based sex education, right? And that's something that's really missing. And I know you have a friend or a colleague who is really doing a lot of great work in that. And there are people and Um, but, but porn is the de facto sex education. So I'm not— I think that porn and people who have really learned about sex through porn, watching pornography, have a very distorted idea of how bodies respond. And there is a huge imprint. I mean, I, I work with recovering porn addicts all the time. And so there's a lot of that, you know, if they're watching kinky porn sex, then yeah, a lot of those kinks work their way into their arousal template, what's clinically called an arousal template.

Yeah. Because I think, you know, that one of the things about when you watch too much porn is that you get bored of the boring, you know, of the fairly, um, pedestrian stuff. Fairly quickly, and it's easy to escalate into stuff that's a little bit more kinky until, frankly, you know, like, I know guys that are now really into tranny porn, right? And I have a friend who's trans, and she's always being fetishized when she goes on dates because of the porn that these guys have watched and the fact that now there's somebody that's really, you know, that's really transitioning that they can have their fantasy made real. So I think that, you know, for me, I see a lot of that sort of stuff. I've spoken about it on TikTok as well, just about. But I think that, you know, like you said, look, perversions aren't unhealthy unless the person that you're with just doesn't want to do them, and yeah, or it's just not really their thing. And then you have to kind of figure out what you're going to do. We mentioned outsourcing, and you know, I think that's a big step. I did, and maybe a bit risky as well. I mean, I know a friend who, who is now with a guy who's, who is, they're both into BDSM, and his wife wasn't. So So she said, go and do that with somebody else. And he said, okay, I will. And went, you know, to the BDSM, went on FetLife and found somebody that was, and then they, they got, they eventually got together because that kink was really strong for both of them. And so that then kind of overtook all of the other components in his marriage.

That were, you know, yeah, well, yes, I think, you know, there's a, there's also outsourcing to a professional, like I talked a couple weeks ago about my experience with a professional Dom.

Yeah.

And that was not sexual. We didn't have sex. He didn't get aroused. He wasn't, you know, it was, so there are ways in which you can play out depending on what the kink is. There are ways that you can sort of play that out in a way that is less likely to threaten the emotional component of a, of a partnership, you know. Um, I did want to mention though that one of the things about porn and kink and, you know, perversions and kinks and things is, um, that, you know, the, the escalating sort of endorphin, the heightened, you know, riskiness or kinkiness, or I think that that is, I mean, it's part of the addiction, you know.

Yeah.

And there's a lot of, you know, I mean, I'm all about intimacy, right? My book is Radical Intimacy, which is partly sex, partly physical intimacy, but it's also all kinds of other intimacy. And what happens with porn addiction or people that are, that, that need to have this elaborate, like laying the clothes out and having the story, all that play is wonderful and can be very healthy. And you will often see people who have an aversion to or disordered in terms of intimacy and their ability to be present and connected and to really have some of the hottest sex I've ever had. I mean, really, truly the hottest sex I've ever had. Involves none of that other stuff. In fact, from the outside looking in, would be like a big snooze fest. But holy moly, is— can, can that real connection and that real presence with each other, that intimacy, can be unbelievably exciting and pleasurable and, and like soul-stirring. You know?

Yeah, yeah.

So there's a real range, and I just maybe encourage people to consider whether or not you're with somebody who can meet you where you want to explore.

What a great, great, great way to end the show.

It's—

and especially as it's the beginning of 2024, and I, and I, and I made a little video the other day about asking people to consider what it is that they want out of their relationships and whether that's what they're getting. So yeah, so are you getting the kind of sex, relationship, love that you are seeking? There you go. As you enter 2024, ask yourself those deep deep questions. Zoe, it has been absolutely fabulous like always. And yeah, next week we're going to talk about, um, what Zoe actually does for a living. Like, what does it involve going to see somebody? I'm curious to know. Yeah, frankly, because I can't wait to share. All right, goodbye.

Goodbye.