Episode 74: Putting the Pep back into your Partnership

Hello, I'm Suzanne Noble, and I'm Zoe Zaytun, and you are listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. We came up with a, with a strapline, but I've already forgotten it.

Something about everything's better with kink.

Oh, everything's better with kink. But then we decided maybe that was a little bit too extreme for some of our more pedestrian listeners.

No, no, no, not pedestrian.

Pedestrian is a word that we use to mean people who are kind of walking the straight and narrow. Okay.

Yeah, sure.

Not pedestrian as in on the sidewalk.

No, but I mean pedestrian to me has a— maybe this is just me, maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I usually say something is pedestrian when it's not sophisticated or nuanced.

Oh, okay, fair, fair enough. That's it. Maybe I'm using it incorrectly, which is very possible. I've been told by Peter, my former co-host, that he doesn't— you like the way I use the word heteronormative. Oh, I, I've been meaning to mention, yeah, I need to use heterosexual instead of heteronormative, which I said he's probably right, so Yeah, yes, I agree with Peter. Hetero—

well, for people listening, heteronormative means that you are— that you consider heterosexuality normal and everything else abnormal.

Oh, right.

You're normalizing something that's just one particular flavor. So hetero— heterosexual is really what you mean to be saying sometimes.

Yeah, sorry, that's that. Yeah, I got that totally wrong. Anyway, enough of that and my cock-ups and misuse of words. We are going to talk today about something that I know is really on the minds of many people in long-term relationships, which is how to put the pep back into your long-term partnership when you might have lost the pep.

Yeah, there are a couple of things. I, first of all, I have many, many people come through my practice, many women in particular, I think, who are sort of post-55, older than 55, who are in menopause, you know, or postmenopausal. And they've been with their partner for a very long time. And they, you know, sex maybe used to be kind of good. For some people, regrettably, it's never been that good. But even when it's been— you've had a satisfying sex life, but you've been with each other for 150 years and your bodies have totally changed and hormones are changed. And what, what happens then with sex? So, you know, one of the things that I feel like saying right out of the gate is that if it's consensual and neither of you are particularly interested in having a sex life, that's okay. That's okay. If it's— if no— if both partners are on board and neither partner is suffering in that, yeah, there's no— there's— there's no reason why you should feel any kind of pressure from— from the outside in to have a sex life. However, many, many people, for one or the other partner, you know, they do want a sex life. And, and sometimes both partners really wish that they could recapture and relight that spark a little bit. And so, you know, I have some things to say that might be helpful.

I think for me, it, it often becomes much more difficult when you perhaps haven't had sex for a long time. It's just kind of gone. Out of your relationship, you haven't made time for it, or, you know, things have happened. Maybe I've read instances, for instance, where one or the other person has maybe struggled with depression and that person has gone through a period of time where they just really didn't have any desire. And the other person is kind of just gotten used to it, right? But not happily, just gotten used to it. And then not really knowing whether bringing it up is going to be triggering. Right? Because it could be yet one more thing that you're failing at if you're, if you're not stepping up in the relationship in the ways that people expect. So for me, it's sometimes it's timing is so crucial. Like if it's, if it's a little while, then sometimes you can like, hey, what's going on? But if it goes on like it did in my relationship for 4 years, then I just couldn't talk about it anymore. Just tried to say something a couple of times, just didn't really land very well. So I just kind of stopped.

Yeah. Well, I think, and this is your, this is your former marriage, right? So there were probably things happening in the relationship as well that contributed, right? What happens inside the bedroom and outside the bedroom is often very intertwined, right?

Yeah, yeah.

If you find yourself in a relationship, um, you know, in, as I said, like year 150 of marriage, and essentially you're happy, you know, um, essentially you're, you know, you're, you're doing okay, and you, you know, you would like to sort of cultivate more desire, more passion, and more sexual— sexuality in the relationship, there are a few things to consider. And one of the things is that when we— you know, there's so many sort of facets to this. Um, one of the things is to recognize that we have a relationship, um, with our own sexuality first and foremost, right? So we tend to think of sex as something that happens between two people. And actually, the way we think about sex, the way we feel about our sexuality and our sort of sexual creature that lives inside of us, that's part of us, is often needs tending to as we age, as things are different, as our bodies look different and feel different, you know, in terms of stimulation and desire and arousal and So really, sort of reinvesting in cultivating a relationship with, with ourselves as we are now, not as we were when we were 20 or 30. But really, like, what's happening with me right now? And how do I have— how do I find a sexual identity as a— for me, you know, almost 60-year-old, as a 60-year-old Who am I as a sexual being at 60? Fortunately, in, in the recent years, I have role models. I have Helen Mirren. I have Meryl Streep. I have Diane Keaton. I have Jane Fonda. Like, there's a, a host of really sensual, beautiful, sexy women who are over 60 and modeling that for us. So it's not— it no longer is it sort of, you know, the Golden Girls with funny old lady hairdos that don't really resonate with me. I don't identify with. There are women who are, who continue, Mary Steenburgen, and there's that movie, you know, it's a rom-com, Book Club.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

I love those women and I really delight in their adventures and they're certainly very engaged with their sexuality. So, so there's that piece. And the same goes for men, you know, how do I be a sexual man? How do I have that piece of me stay alive into my 60s, 70s, 80s, you know?

So that's a really good point, though, in that we have to acknowledge that as older people, trying to capture what we were in our younger days is a foolish and exercise, it's not going to get you anywhere except being unhappy. I mean, obviously HRT to a certain extent does do a bit of that. And I never was on HRT, but I know lots of women who are, and literally they say to me, it's like the switch suddenly went on and I'm back to the way I was in this feeling sexual, feeling like, you know, I want sex, feeling desire and arousal and everything. And they want that. And so they take the pill, the magic pill, and that magic pill gives them that feeling that they want to recapture, right? I mean, for me, I didn't really have an option to do that. So I had to struggle through that transitional period. Going on in my body where I was highly sexual to feeling very not particularly sexual and even kind of a bit, you know, just angry. I suppose I was a bit angry. And I suppose— and I, and I have said this before, I did grieve over the loss of my libido and I did go through that period in my life where I literally had to let go of this notion that that was ever going to come back because I just thought it's not going to come back like that. So just, you're going to have to just let that go. And then I had to get used to the new person that I was. Now, this was not a quick sort of like one minute I woke up and felt like, yeah, I'm really happy about having no desire and having to do this and that. And I didn't, it didn't happen quickly, but I did finally, after many years of soul searching, go through and accept that this new person was a new person with a new type of sexuality and a new way of dealing with things. And a lot of that then started to focus on fantasy, you know, sort of role-playing. I started to discover things that would start to turn me on again. And I had to kind of go through a bunch of other stuff that I realized didn't so anymore like it used to. And so I do think that we all— that going through that process is a bit, for some people, can be a bit like grieving. It's not easy. And but if you want to come to the other side, it's kind of felt essential for me to do that.

Yeah, I think that's— I think you're describing, uh, uh, you know, the process of reinventing, re-meeting, reinventing yourself, you know, which we can do at many, many stages. You know, many women feel that after motherhood when they have their first child, and then all of a sudden their breasts are, you know, feeding machines and they're, you know, and their bodies are different and they feel different and their, and the, their sort of mental emotional state is, um, much more focused on motherhood than it is on being, you know, being a lover. Um, so yes, like, and, and certainly our changing bodies and our changing hormones, um, is, is something to You know, to recognize a name and not— it's very hard to not see, um, the, the sort of change in libido and desire as a loss. And I'm here to tell you that at the other end of the grieving process, there's a lot of opportunity actually, and a lot of freedom potentially. It's a very liberating time for us. But, you know, Suzanne, you're speaking to this other aspect that is, that is also relational. You're speaking to what I was bringing up as like first and foremost, our relationship with ourselves. And then the same can be done for that sort of reckoning and like naming what is relationally, because what ends up happening is when we're really young and we have a lot of hormones and our bodies are sort of on board very quickly, right? Many times all we have to do is like, you know, see a look or a glance or smell a smell and we're like, you know, lubricated and throwing our clothes off and throwing each other on the bed, right? And so what ends up happening is that sort of new relationship energy, or that's a term in polyamory, right? Or like that sort of spontaneity and passion. Our bodies can compensate very quickly. Like it can be all about that and that desire and sort of physical component can drive sex.

Yeah.

At— when that starts to wane, it actually becomes essential to deal with the actual relationship because as the desire and the hormones and start to shift and fall off, and we are also sort of accumulating a ton of relational resentments and ruptures that never quite get repaired. And like, so we're banking all of this sort of, um, distance from each other, or, you know, we're sort of watering and nurturing and feeding a big elephant in the room that never really gets addressed. And then the hormones at the same time can't compensate for that.

Yeah, yeah, that's a very good point. Yeah.

So what, what I'm often doing with clients at this stage who are looking to really get back into sex with each other is to do a little bit of healing things that have, that have not been looked at and not been discussed, not been addressed, right? So there's a little bit of sort of relational repair in terms of the structure of the partnership and the emotions around that. And then there's the other piece of like getting back into the physicality and allowing it to be organically what it is at this stage. So slower, more connected, more, a lot more sort of teasing and buildup and allowing the sort of both the body and the mind to sort of slowly relax into a state of openness with each other.

Yeah, and I think, you know, a lot of the becoming aroused, as I've said before, becoming aroused, be the desire. I think there was a word that you used for before, was it, um, something arousal template? One of them was, um, was it proactive or reactive or—

oh yes, spontaneous and, um Uh, flanking. It's early for me in Los Angeles.

Yes, I did write it down.

Responsive, spontaneous and responsive desire.

Yes. Yeah. And, and, and understanding that the desire follows the arousal and that the arousal can, which is so diff— different if you've been in a long-term relationship because you're used to the desire coming first and then the arousal. And I think flipping that narrative, if you've been in a long relationship, can be again another adjustment. It's like, what do you mean I look at you and you don't get wet? It's like, well, 'cause like, you know, 'cause I don't.

'Cause he didn't pay the electric bill. Pay the electric bill. That's my foreplay.

Well, pay the electric bill and, for instance, like, offer to give me, like, rub my shoulders or give me a nice massage or hug me like you really want to hug me or say, come and give me a kiss, and then the kiss is tender and it turns into something a little bit more intimate. Like, You gotta kind of like, in a way, it's funny, it's the first time I've really thought about this actually. In a way, it's like when you watch those old-fashioned black and white movies where we couldn't show anybody having sex, right? But there was just like, there was dancing and people would just like hold each other and do and spin each other around and do all that kind of Fred Astaire, Ginger Rogers type stuff, right? And you're just like, oh my God, they're so hot together. I just And, and so for me, it's like all of those small moments will add up to, yes, I want to fuck you now. Yes. But without those small moments, I don't have much desire. That's, you know, that's the thing.

I, I, you know, foreplay all day is the—

all day, right?

Yeah. That's foreplay. And I can't remember who said it. There's one of my colleagues, another sexologist in the space. It might be Esther Perel, actually, who says foreplay starts the minute— foreplay for the next sex session starts the minute the present one ends.

Yeah.

And it's true. And I think that there's this aspect of like you know, courting each other again over and over again. And that it— what it does is it— there's sort of an underlying foundation in a relationship when you, when you actively participate with each other that way, that, that is sort of an underlying safety and softness and openness and an appreciation for each other. And listen, my husband started making my coffee every morning. He comes in and he brings me my coffee every morning and sweet talks me. Oh, look, there's an angel on my pillow. You know, like, honestly, it's like, oh, that's so sweet. That melts my heart and makes me want him, want, want to connect and, um, and relax in his arms because he shows me in many, many different facets and ways throughout the day that that he cares for me and that he loves me, and that makes me feel desire for him.

Yes.

No, it's not. And, and, you know, partly I think we get lazy. Partly I think we just sort of march through our day, and when it comes to sex, we, we just want to sort of like, we keep it siloed in this thing that we do. And I think that there's really such an opportunity to You look at, at like couples, like big famous couples that have maintained these long marriages. Like, um, I always think of Joanne Woodward and Paul Newman. Oh, and they adored each other. They adored each other. And, and there was a lot of that sort of, um, ongoing sweetness and flirtation, you know. Also, someone asked them how they managed to not ever get divorced. And Joanne Woodward said, you just decide you're not going to get divorced, even when you hate each other. You know, you just know, like, look, we're going to get through this, even though you're a schmuck.

And also, I think another thing that you said once was about— and I was talking to a friend of mine about this on the weekend, which is about considering the relationship as the third person. In your own relationship and really contextualizing that. What does that actually look like? Is it a healthy blooming tree that you're feeding all the time with lots of water and attention and love and it's blossoming and blooming and looks gorgeous? Or is it like a dead little shrub on the ground that looks like it needs to be picked up and carted off to the, you know, to the rubbish bin, right? What does that relationship look like? And if you've gotten to the stage where your relationship looks like bickering, it looks like, you know, there's not a lot of nice words being said, there's not a lot of time being spent on doing things that the relationship really loves and all of that, then, you know, how are you going to get the pet back unless you start feeding the relationship again?

Yes. And for those of you listening who, who are sort of embarking on this, or it's been a year or 2 years or 3, you know, and, and you're not really looking quite at the relationship shrub yet, dead shrub, it's harder to bring that, to bring the, the, the, the tree back to life. It really is. It's much easier to maintain it. And to feed and water it along the way. Otherwise you've got major triage and major, you know, but if you find yourself there, there are ways to go about it. But yes, I think the idea of the third, the relationship as a third entity is really can be so helpful because you can look at together. You turn instead of looking at each other, trying to negotiate your needs, facing each other where it can feel like a zero-sum game. You turn together and you're in partnership in creating and cultivating something, something else.

Yeah. And would you— I mean, one of the things I've said before is just like silly games, like leaving Post-it notes around the house, or— because again, it can be really difficult to articulate what You know, the fact that you do want sex, especially if one person's not particularly feeling it. And I know we're going to have a discussion with somebody in the future about if you're a low libido partner with a person who's got a higher libido. It's something super common now amongst our age group, right? And I know friends of mine that just say, just not interested anymore. So, you know, And my, my other favorite therapist, Dr. Jeffrey on TikTok, who's awesome. Yes, yes, yes. But Jeffrey on TikTok, I forget, Jeffrey Therapist or whatever his name is. He said, you know, one thing you must never do with a low libido partner is just cast any blame, right? Yeah, if anything, just say to them, it's cool. You know what? It's fine if you don't want it. It's fine. But just know that if you want it, I'm absolutely up for it.

Yeah. Yeah.

So like, whenever you're up for it, I'll be totally up for it. But if you're not up for it, I'm up for it.

Let's get Dr. Jeffrey on the podcast.

Oh, God, I'd love it. But he's got so many millions of followers now.

That's okay. We're very special, Suzanne Noble. He will be thrilled to come and talk to us.

Oh, I, I'd love—

yes. I mean, desire discrepancy is such a— I mean, and it's really not just our age, actually. It, it's really exists, you know, in all ages, and it can be really difficult and, and kind of devastating to a, a partnership. So, and it's very delicate. So yes, totally. Um, uh, Post-it notes. I'm laughing because people listening can't see me laughing, but I have— one of the things I often suggest is to leave each other Post-it notes of appreciation, and that's a good hit to sort of, you know, boost self-esteem and express gratitude and appreciation. And it's lovely. And I suggested that with clients of mine, um, he is very, very— he connects very physically. Like, that's how he, he feels loved, is by having sex and, and hugs and non-sexual physical affection. And she just longs for that deep emotional connection. And the Post-it notes have become a point of contention, totally counterproductive now in there, because if he doesn't leave one every day, then she feels devastated. So we've opened it— I've introduced into the dynamic something to drive them apart. Oh my goodness.

So funny. Yeah, that's really funny. I really like the Post-it notes idea. So, so we've got a few things that we've come up with. One is you can try Post-it notes. They don't always work, but you can use them to show appreciation. You can use them to maybe express your desire or something you'd like to do, with no expectation, by the way. If you've got somebody that, you know, their libido isn't so high, you can just give them reassurance and tell them that you'll be there if they ever do fancy it. You can definitely just be more, you know, just physical— any kind of physical touch, cuddles, hugs, kissing, dancing, anything that brings you closer. Physically to the other person without necessarily being sexual. I think it's really important, especially if you've not connected sexually for a while, that the initial connections are just non-sexual. They're just, they're just platonic kind of touch, but with a bit of a something.

Yes, I, I really want to say a little bit more about that. I know you're in the middle of a list, but I do want to say that it— what you're saying is so incredibly true. And, and important. And part of that is that our bodies, we want to be able to reconnect. Desire is a lot about connecting the erotic mind with the physical body. So how we're thinking about sex and sexuality and how we feel when we're having sex. And one of the ways to do that, you start to reconnect gradually and slowly by allowing the non-sexual physical touch, because then you're safe. There's no anxiety needed. You're just containing that in a hug without having to think about like, oh God, am I going to get wet? And is he gonna think of my wrinkly body as terrible? Is it, you know, like all that cascade of anxiety and thoughts when you're connecting? It's like you're practicing. It's like you're, you're sort of like, oh, I can be hugged and relax, and I don't— I can get out of my head and into my body, and there's nothing required of me here. Very healing.

Yeah, it's a really, really good point. I think there are some people that have written as well to say that sometimes they feel that, and men especially have said that their wives won't let them even touch them anymore. And I suspect that's because there was a, the thought in the back of their head was they're only doing this to get something at the end of it rather than— and maybe, maybe it is about articulating that and just saying, I just really want to hug you. Like, that's it. I'm not, I'm not expecting anything else. I just really miss hugging you and just leave it at that. So sometimes we need to be able to be clear about the fact that we're not expecting to have penetrative sex. We just want some type of connection, and it's, as you said, making somebody feel comfortable in that so that it can eventually lead to something down the line, but not necessarily—

Hold on, Suzanne Noble Noble. Are you suggesting, are you actually suggesting that we start to communicate with each other about sex?

Why would I suggest that, Zoe?

Yeah, you know what, you know what, here's, here's something that I say often to, um, to the high desire, um, partner in, in a, in a couple dealing with desire discrepancy is that you can't make somebody want you. You can't make somebody want to have sex with you. But what you can do is you can, you can create the conditions in which desire can show up.

That's a very, very beautiful thought. I love that.

Yeah.

Yep. And that's very true. So yeah, I think that's, um, that's a good place to end. As good a place as any is you can just leave that place where desire might turn up. So I think that's the thing is like without go forward listeners without the expectation every time you touch your partner that it's going to lead to getting a shag. It just can just be a really nice way to feel connected. Yeah, beautiful. And that is all from us. Um, and if you're not already, uh, like subscribing to this, because we don't ever do those calls to action that people talk about all the time, but it would be really nice It would be really nice if you did subscribe to our podcast. We'd love to get up to 1,000 subscribers. We're like, I think we're at about 850. So with another 150, I would love to get to 1,000 subscribers in the next couple of podcasts. That's a good goal. Another 150. I mean, it's ambitious, but you know, with your help, listeners, we can do that. And, uh, yeah, and we're on TikTok and all sorts of other things. So it's been lovely to see you.

Yes, likewise. Always a pleasure, Suzanne Noble. Thank you for listening in, everybody.

Bye-bye. Bye-bye.