Episode 77: Sex and Social Media

This week's episode has been sponsored by Oh My Bod, shifting the evolution of pleasure. Hi, hi, hi, hi, I'm Suzanne Noble.

And I'm Zoe.

And you are listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. And at the moment, there's a catfight breaking out on my Sex Advice for Seniors Facebook page, mainly— actually, it's over two topics. And I have to say that one of them is very— like, I do completely understand why. And the other one, not so much, because we discussed it before. The one is about the fact that The men in the group that follow the Facebook page Sex Advice for Seniors have taken umbrage with my suggesting to them that porn might be contributing to their unsatisfying sexual relationships with their partners, or in fact the fact that they can't get it up, or lots of other things. And they're really getting quite angry with me.

Oh no, although I'm not— it's not, it's not a cat fight.

No, it's a cock fight.

It's a cock fight. Okay, so one of the things that I want to say as somebody who, who is in media talking about sex quite a lot, um, I want to just sort of like put it out there that you're not saying no men should ever watch porn, right? You're saying if you are having unsatisfactory, um, uh, you know, sexual relations and erectile unreliable erections, or you need, um, you know, intercourse— one of the things, things that happens a lot with, with people with penises who masturbate a lot is that, um, and you've said this, you have said this, we have said this, that, you know, you get used to that, that level of stimulation. It's the same thing as when women use vibrators.

Absolutely.

And you get used to a certain intensity of stimulation that isn't necessarily going to happen without a hand or without a vibrator, right? So, and so it's just, it's just information. People. It's just information. I mean, this—

and also, it's not, it's not like I feel like as if I'm saying anything particularly revolutionary, although maybe because, you know, we know that people struggle to talk about sex and they may not have been— have heard a woman talking about porn before. And I am a woman and I am talking about men and what happens with men. And so men with penises tell me that me, that doesn't have a penis, shouldn't really be talking to them about their penis if I don't have one. You know, we can talk about lots of things that we don't necessarily have direct experience with, but have enough education around to be able to be knowledgeable. I think like, like we don't have to have gone through the Civil War to talk about what the Civil War was like.

Yeah, it's science, it's sexology, it's not— we're not making moral judgments. No. And, and you are not anti-porn either.

No, I mean, you know, like, to people on social media, and, you know, this is— and this is one of the things about being— what I've now come to realize is, is being a person like you who's been out there in the public and has now developed a bit of a following is that you have to have a really fucking thick skin in this game because you get so much shit as soon as you open your mouth to talk about sex, like so much shit. And I think I'm doing this mainly for free, guys. Like, I'm not making thousands here off of this. I'm just doing this because I'm a woman of experience and that's had, you know, some significant sexual history, and I'm just sharing with you what I've learned as a result of that. That is it. Like, I don't need to have shit around that. Just leave me alone.

Well, and I think you and I both are on a sort of mission, and many others in our field, to, uh, to have conversations and to normalize sexual activity, you know, in a way that's that's not loaded up with shame and inhibition and morality and judgment and all of that, you know. So it's actually— I mean, I welcome all of these conversations, but don't make us the enemy here. You know, we're just, we're just opening up the conversation.

But you can see because social media is not very good at filtering out hate, as we know, or abuse or anything like that. And as I was noticing before, bizarrely, TikTok filters out more hate than the other social media platforms. But what I've noticed is this consistent voice of conservatism and the far right that comes through a lot, right? So— I didn't— because so much of social media and so much of the traffic that we get is from the States, I noticed that the voices that I hear coming from America are really those incredibly conservative, we should only have sex within a loving marriage, we should only do this, you know, master— somebody actually wrote today masturbation makes you blind. "Come on." No, I'm not joking. Someone actually wrote that. And I thought, come on, seriously. Are we— is that where we are here with this? This is crazy. But this is a sort of craziness that I can see. I'm just, you know, I'm just trying to ignore most of it. But I can see that there is this very, very strong, very conservative Christian values all that sort of stuff that's kind of filtering its way through and trying to make everybody feel bad about sex and sexual pleasure, right? I mean, it's just the— those people with the loudest voice. It's scary, actually, if I— now that I reflect on it, it's kind of scary.

I mean, it really— it's deeply disturbing, and I'm terrified, and so are my kids. And yeah, I mean, we're not going to get into politics here, but It's, um, as far as, you know, uh, reproductive rights. And I mean, there are all kinds of dimensions of this, but yeah, the, the ideas around, um, sex are— I mean, it's like going back many decades.

Yeah, completely. And it was— it, you know, it's interesting to hear people talking about— on the one hand, you've got this far— this kind of far-right group who were telling me that porn is okay. In some—

that's the thing, like, that's the thing, same people who are ashamed that are digging in. It's the same. It's the people who are like, you know, this is— masturbation is wrong, and get— don't tell me not to watch porn.

What are they doing with their hands when they're watching porn?

Yeah, no, you know, it's very hypocritical and it doesn't make—

yeah. And then, and then they start to talk about, oh well, what do those old porn stars do? I mean, the whole thing is really kind of scary, but I think also it's scary as a sex educator to try, or just someone with an, with an interest in sex actually, to be able to just share their own experience and their own feelings around what's happened in, you know, in my case, in my own life, what I've witnessed. I'm not trying to shame anybody. I'm not trying to do anything. I'm just trying to put out the information as I see it. And people are really like, really hate, hate, hating on me.

Well, and it's interesting too that it's, you know, what has gotten what is elicited the most hate is coming from men.

Yeah, yeah. So that leads me on to the next topic, which I knew was going to be a sensitive topic, and I should have considered it before I put it out there, which was the aspect of circumcised versus not circumcised penises. Now, now, I said that as a woman, I personally don't experience any more or less pleasure whether or not a man is circumcised or not, right? That was just me talking from a purely aesthetic point of view that this penis in, in its way didn't impact on my own pleasure. Now I could acknowledge that it may impact on their pleasure and that there may be definite things that happen to men who are circumcised. And I'm of the Jewish faith, so, you know, enough said around that. And, but there were, again, conversations going on in that, you know, some people were talking about it in terms of mutilation and getting really quite fierce about that. I totally understand where that's coming from. But then there was a very, very strong voice, again, around the cleanliness aspect. Which, which, which again, coming from Europe where most penises are not circumcised, I just thought, I can't believe we're still having a discussion about the fact that you're not washing your penis. And these are people that really believe that uncircumcised penises were unclean.

Honestly, they're Americans, aren't they?

Yeah, I suspect they are.

Yeah. Well, because that's what they're taught. That's what they're taught. That it's like, and it's, it's gen— it's now a few generations of, of that. It's this, it, it was the same thing as like formula is better than breast milk. Yeah. You know, and I'm not a breast milk evangelist. In fact, I couldn't breastfeed my kids. I had had radiation treatment and like, I was not, I, I will, I can't make milk.

Yeah.

So, and, and I was, I mean, there's another, there's the other side of that coin, but like, I mean, I was really traumatized at, during a movement, the breast milk movement where I was told I was poisoning my babies because I was needed to feed them. Anyway, that's a whole other conversation, but Um, but there, you know, I mean, in this country during a certain era, you know, we were indoctrinated into like formula is better than breast milk.

Yeah.

And so there's also, we've been indoctrinated in the United States. Um, I mean, it's trending completely differently now and many, many, many more people are not circumcising their boys. Yeah, but, you know, that's what we were taught. It's not clean. There's an increased, you know, there's a, there's data that shows that if you have a foreskin, you have an increased likelihood of penile cancer and like all kinds of things.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

So I understand where that notion comes from. What is continually troubling to me is that nobody is leaning into— not nobody, but many, many people, a vast number of people are not leaning into science and are not willing to question, you know, and I swear, I think some of it comes from this shame or, you know, if we were talking about toes and toenails, it wouldn't have this kind of charge to it. But you start talking about people's genitals and they get hysterical, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, look, I, I, I completely understand where the, where the whole clean versus unclean, circumcised versus uncircumcised thing comes from. But as we all know now, like, just, you just use, you just clean yourself and then, and, and, and that's it. Like, it, it, there's no point that needs to be said about that. It's just, just keep your Just keep it clean and you're going to be fine. And, you know, like most men I know as well who are uncircumcised, like, you know, if we are— if they're not— if they're not using a condom because we're in a relationship, for example, then they go and have a wash after. Yeah, like, like I go and have a little wash. And it's not— this is, this is not, this is not big challenging stuff here, but Yeah, I mean, interestingly enough, you know, there are so many— one of the things that last week's episode brought up, of course, Lauren was bringing up around vaginal estrogen and all of that. And so a friend of mine who was having some issues around dryness decided to call up her GP. Now we're in Spain and they said, no, no, we can't give you that without doing blood work. We can't do this, we can't do that. And she was like, no, it's just like, this is the symptoms. This is what's going on. Right. And they just, they just didn't want to, they didn't want to hear it. They didn't want to give it to her. They didn't want to hear it. And she felt quite dismissed. And after I was kind of evangelizing about it, she got quite excited about the fact that this could potentially transform her sexual pleasure. So she went— she's now on a mission to try and find somebody that can support her potentially in her decision to get something, which, to be honest, in the UK, I made one phone call to my GP. I said, this is what I'm experiencing. This is what I think that I'd really like this. They said, yeah, sure, no problem. The prescription will be ready in 15 minutes. It's going to be sent to your phone. I went to the pharmacy, picked it up. No problem. Right. No problem, no discussion, no pushback, no, no nothing. And so, you know, what I realized is, is, is not just that we have to be aware of some of the stupid stuff that, that we've been told, but also, as you said, we've got to fight for our own sexual health now. Yeah. Especially as women and got to demand what we think we need or what we think we want, because it's not just stupid conservative far-right people that are, that are, that are telling us we can't do this and we can't do this with our bodies, right? We can't, you know, abortions and all the rest of it. But also now there's a lot of doctors out there who are also uneducated, which doesn't help matters. And so it's really now been completely up to us to be armed with the knowledge that we need to be able to go and seek the help that we should be getting anyway.

Yeah.

And I couldn't believe it when she told me that. I was like, what do you mean?

Yeah.

She just went, they didn't want to hear, Suzanne. They just didn't want to hear. They were like, nope, nope, nope, nope.

No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I, I— it's disheartening after all this time, um, that we are still, um, that we're still dealing with this. You know, I see women— one of the things that I do is I'm a provider on a platform called Maven, which is employer-provided healthcare services for women's reproductive health, basically, and everything that goes around that. So sex coaching is part of that. And I see a tremendous number of women come in, and so many of them— like one recently, she's in menopause and having a lot of symptoms, and her gynecologist is wonderful. She's seen her for a couple decades. She delivered her babies. Her— wow. I mean, she just is like like she loves this woman and she can't talk to her about sex.

That sucks.

And it just is like, wow, really? Like, even some of our wonderful doctors and clinicians are just so, um, ill-equipped to even talk about, about sex and pleasure.

And yeah, so actually, before I forget, that is one of the things that I thought we should chat about just briefly is there's clearly a lot of people who just are afraid to go to their doctor and talk about these intimate issues, right? There just are. And, and if you are afraid to go to your doctor and talk about these intimate issues, what, what can you do to overcome that fear or to get the help you need? Like, what is your suggestion being out there in the field? What can you do to help a woman who's too afraid to talk about some of the stuff that's going on?

Well, you have to find an outlet. I mean, if you're too afraid, then the first thing is to get over your fear and realize that you deserve to get support. So I, you know, we have said some of the challenges of social media for sure we've talked about in this episode, but Um, one of the other things is that social media, particularly Instagram— and I am not on TikTok, you are braver than I am, Suzanne Noble— um, but there are a lot of— I see on Instagram there are a lot of sort of pleasure evangelists and, uh, people who are really doctors and, um, people who are really activists in the women's reproductive health space and sex activists and So start following those accounts. And there are also some tech platforms, sex tech, that are really surfacing that are all about women's health. You actually can, if your employer doesn't provide Maven, you can actually pay $50 for a, for, but you know, pay out of pocket as an individual. And there's a lot of— I mean, there's just a whole sort of, you know, bevy of providers of all kinds, pelvic floor therapists, physical therapists, OB-GYNs, sex coaches, relationship coaches. I mean, all kinds of endocrinologists, all kinds of providers on Maven. And there are other companies like Maven as well. So I, I would say just start Googling, just start looking at Instagram and, and find your people. You know, there's a lot being said now.

I thought also one of the things that just struck me is that I've been finding that more and more in kind of female, large female communities on Facebook. I think you pointed me to Ethel, which was the AARP women, oh, over 50s women community. There are people that are bringing up sex in that, in those places, which are, you know, and people, because it's, it's such a huge group of, it's, you know, hundreds of thousands of people on that group. And I've noticed that people have started having those kind of conversations about really intimate topics. Because they feel it's a safe space. And I think that it's one way to, to recognize, like I did last week in the discussion with Lauren, that our experience is not unique and that the things that we go through are shared amongst large groups of other women. And, you know, when she starts talking about, for instance, challenges around orgasm or vaginal dryness or any of those things, and you go into these groups and bring that up, people do pile in and support you. And I, and I have to say that I, I think that's the biggest difference between these kind of female-only communities. Advantages of Age is mainly women only. And I have to say that the conversation, the Facebook group that I, I co-run, and that's about 5,000 people. And we've had some pretty intimate discussions and people are really supportive generally. I mean, I'm, I'm always surprised by how generous women are. With their knowledge and just also making us feel like we're not alone, you know. Yeah. And I think that's the thing about these, these kind of big Facebook groups of women is that while it's— what— while on the one hand you can just follow people that, that also validate your experience, who perhaps have millions of followers, or, you know, like us, just out there doing this stuff, You can also find massive communities of people. And if you can overcome a bit of your fear around sharing some of those intimate topics, I think for the large part, you'll find that people really want to help you. Yeah, they really do. And for me, that's one of the first things is that when, you know, when you get 100 comments from someone in social media that says, yep, this drives me crazy as well, you feel armed, right? You feel like I can go to a doctor with this and say, look, I posted this on a group of 100,000 women and I got over 100 comments from people telling me I'm— this is not unusual. So, yeah, you know, I think—

I mean, you know, one of the things that, that you can do is, is to not force your provider, your doctors to have these conversations, but really and give them an opportunity to start to learn, especially if you have a doctor that you have a really good relationship with. Invite them to, to get more knowledgeable about it and to be able to meet your needs as their patient, you know?

Yeah. I mean, I think you can, you know, that's, that's a choice that we all have to make, right? Is do we try and educate someone who perhaps is giving us a bit of resistance to whatever we're proposing, or do we try and just find somebody who's more sympathetic? I mean, a friend of mine who had some significant, like, endometriosis and was having really terrible pain, unfortunately, to the point where, you know, they wanted to take out most of her insides just because for them that was going to be the easy way out, right? You're just— we're just going to take it all out and that's going to remove all of your pain and all of that. And she didn't want that to happen. And it was actually her husband who went to the doctor in the practice and just said, look, she's in a hell of a lot of pain and I don't want my wife to be in this much pain. So what are you guys going to do about it? Right. And it was when her husband stepped in to say, I don't like seeing my wife suffering like this, please find a way to help her without removing all her insides. Can you do that for me? And then she started going on bioidentical hormones. She went to see a specialist. She was referred to somebody else, completely transformed her menopause experience. She's so happy now. She's out of pain. You know, she's on her own special preparation of hormones. It's been created specifically for her and all of that. But it was unfortunately her husband who insisted on her getting the help that she needed. So I think, you know, for me, that's the other thing is like, guys, you may be sitting around watching and feeling helpless, but often it's your word that may count.

Yes, right. Um, that's infuriating though, honestly. Right.

I mean, totally infuriating, but not, not completely surprising, I think. You know, not—

I don't want to be a man basher or stuff, but no, it's not, it's not that. It's that women are— I mean, you know, there are all kinds of studies and data and evidence that women are not taken seriously, and women's pain is not taken seriously, and and even by other women doctors often, you know, so it's not just men, but that, you know, when a man speaks up, it has impact. But, you know, use what you have and get the care that you need. And yeah, yeah, I have a big medical history. I have a lot of long— I'm a cancer survivor. I have a lot of history as a patient and you know, you have to advocate for yourself. You just do. It's, it's something that at least in this country, in the United States, you really have to advocate and fight for your needs, you know?

Yeah, completely. And I mean, look, let's face it, when it comes to female reproductive health, it still seems to me as if there's fairly limited choices of how you can deal with any of the problems that we have. So, you know, we don't have an equivalent to Viagra, for instance. Yeah, we, you know, we've got, we've got HRT, we got some other stuff, but, you know, we don't— it's not like we can— there's like a huge— they're not there. They haven't gone so deep into studying female reproductive health that, as we know, because it's still pretty new, because it's only recently that anybody started to listen to us about any of this. So, you know, so what's out there I think is fairly limited. But even so, the stuff that's out there can really help us. And I think for me, that's always the point is that you have to be strong enough to ask and be willing to ask for help. And that is, you know, that's really important because you can be helped in most cases. And yeah, and you know, going back to the very beginning of this discussion about the porn men, right? Some of the conversation in that group was on that page was about the fact that their wife doesn't quote unquote put out anymore because she's always ill all the time, right?

Yeah.

One guy said this, and therefore, therefore, that's his rationale for why he has to turn to porn, right? And you think if you had a better understanding and appreciation of perhaps some of the issues that your wife was dealing with, then potentially you might not have had to resort to porn. But because maybe she's scared of addressing some of those issues directly with her doctor and you are not able to support her in, you know, taking the steps that she needs to get the help that she needs, both of you are in a no-win situation here.

So, right.

So it doesn't benefit any party to not go and see the doctor. That's the thing.

Yeah. Yeah. Listen, there are all kinds of issues with, you know, I mean, just to bring it back to, as you say, the porn men. There are all kinds of reasons why people watch porn, and porn in and of itself is not bad, and voyeurism and exhibitionism are healthy parts of sexual expression and sex. And, and so there's a huge range, and porn addiction is an enormous issue. It really does exist, and maybe that's not you, and maybe your porn use is healthy, and there, you know, that, that's fine, but if, you know, I mean, there is such a thing as porn addiction, and it is, right?

We didn't make it up, folks. We didn't make it up. It does actually exist, right? Zoe, go and get the help you need, man, because Zoe's not very well. So go and get the help you need.

Thank you.

Next week we've got a guest, um, and I'm gonna just leave that as a surprise.

I'm excited. I'm excited.

I believe, I believe in fact that our guest is a man, and I believe that, that our guest, our male guest next week may be talking about unreliable erections. Let's just say that. Awesome.

Awesome.

Ciao ciao.