Episode 80: Lillith your Life!

This week's episode has been sponsored by Oh My Bod, shifting the evolution of pleasure. Hi, I'm Suzanne Noble, and you are listening to Sex Advice for Seniors, and I This week I am with Marie Maurice, who has got a fa— the name, I love the name of this website, which is Lilith Your Life. And for those of you who don't know, Lilith existed before Eve. And the only reason that I'm familiar with Lilith at all is that my friend Monique Roffey wrote a book that was based on the archetype of Lilith called The Tryst. And so that's how I got to know Lilith, who in the book anyway was quite a chaotic disruptive, sexually confident woman who comes into this couple's life and is quite disruptive and then ultimately departs. I won't spoil the ending for you, but I got to know this Lilith character and I was very curious about her. So when I saw that Marie was using Lilith as this, as the name of her website, I just knew I had to talk to you, Marie. So welcome. Welcome to Sex Advice for Seniors.

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be, to be with you and your listeners today.

So thank you. So let's start with this whole idea of Lilith and why you've decided that Lilith is the character that you focus on and the person that you focus on to work with women around the idea of sexual empowerment. Why Lilith?

Yeah, I mean, it's a really good point. So I think a bit like you, Suzanne Noble, I didn't know anything about Lilith until I actually got dragged by one of my friends to a really good exhibition at the British Museum around the representation of female empowerment through the centuries, you know, so through various sort of artifacts and religions. And she, my friend, said, oh, you know, Lilith, the first woman, is going to be there. And I was like, who is Lilith? So I really had no idea. That was 2 or 3 years ago when I started my practice as a certified sex coach. And it really dawned on me that Lilith was this very powerful, sometimes depicted exactly as you said, in a very negative way. Because Lilith is initially, as I said, you know, the first woman, and that's in the sort of older Jewish tradition. It's not very much mainstream, but a lot of people I think are not familiar with her. Character, she basically was made equal. So unlike Eve, you know, she was made equal to Adam. She was his first wife and they were living a fairly sort of equal life until the day where Adam decided that she should become his subordinate. And she was not happy with that. And she decided to, not just sexually as his subordinate, but also in all sense of the term. So she decided to leave paradise because it was no longer paradise for her. And and she left and she then decided to, you know, who knows what she, I like to think that she went on and had loads of fun and created a life for herself. But what's really interesting, and I'd be very curious to read your friend's book, is that I've read quite a lot around the mythology of Lilith and it's always depicted in a quite negative way.

Yes.

Because I think she was punished, you know, so the way Lilith has this sort of, you know, female empowered woman able to kind of break free from this subordination or the willingness of the man to subordinate her. She's been punished through centuries and depicted as this demon coming to haunt, coming to taunt, coming to seduce men and breaking up marriages and breaking up relationships. So that's obviously not how I envisage Lilith. She's coming back a lot stronger recently, and she has survived through the centuries. She's coming back much stronger in terms of, you know, as a goddess, as someone who is inspiring women and who is giving them strength as well to go through and live their lives and discover themselves. So that's why I decided to call my practice LilithYourLife.com. Yeah.

Yeah. So Lilith is now a verb.

Exactly. It's a new verb. And in fact, you'll see the definition on my website. We had a bit of a play with that with my website designer, and she was laughing about it. But yes, to Lilith, you know, so to empower yourself and of course, you know, sexually sort of discover what can be done to enhance your pleasure and get rid of all the things that have stopped you from doing that.

And your own journey sounds also quite familiar to my own in terms of you were married for a long time, and then I'm suspecting you became dissatisfied in some way because you're not married anymore, and then you went off and you then retrained as a, as a sex coach. And I'm curious to know just a little bit about your background and what that journey was like for you. What happened to create this change in your own life?

Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, I know it's quite similar, I think, to lots of the women, at least that I work with. And as you said, to your story as well. I think there's two things going on that were going on for me. One was on a personal level, you know, so being married for almost 20 years, so quite a substantial amount of time, most marriages actually, as I hear. And, you know, overall, I would say a fairly happy marriage, in fact, you know, so very much who I chose to be when I was married quite young and just had this great sort of relationship. But I think something really sort of switched in me around the time I turned sort of 40. I wanted more. I wanted different. I wanted to kind of start exploring. And it was just like, It's hard to describe it on the radio, on audio, but it's radio, that shows my age, but just this sort of full force, you know, coming up and bubbling up to the surface where you know you have to kind of act and do something and create yourself the space for yourself. So that was one thing. And I think sexually, absolutely, you know, it's not necessarily that we became not as compatible with each other, you know, and I wanted something kind of different. I wanted more. I had this urge, you know, this libido really raising. So I wanted to act on that. And then professionally, kind of quite a similar journey, in fact, because I'd been in a quite conventional, you know, very, very exciting, but quite conventional sort of work where I was working on climate change and it was all about, you know, helping others, but in a not in a Nina-focused way. And I just, again, sort of, you know, felt like this was the time for me to shift and to create a different chapter. So that's why I also retrained. But I think the combination of the two, you know, sort of leaving my relationship, initially being quite lost because you're on your own. And I'm sure you've experienced that as well, Suzanne Noble Noble. But what a, yeah, we don't get prepared for that, sort of, you know, out of relationship. We get prepared for marriage, but we don't get prepared for separation or divorce. So it was quite a journey, but that combination of finding myself again and also retraining was very much linked. Yeah, absolutely.

I think as well, I always say to women that are 40, and especially if they're single, that for me, that decade of my life was quite extraordinary in that, as you explained it, the raging libido. I suspect that, and I always, and I don't know anything about it other than it felt like my body was telling me that this was the last opportunity I was going to have to make babies, even though I didn't want babies. But it was just, it was just the, the, the sexual energy was kind of on it at an all-time high. Coupled with not having the emotional drama that I used to have when I was younger with all that sexual energy. So I, I felt like I had all the libido without all the bullshit that I had from my youth. So I could really have a lot of fun without a lot of guilt. And that was— I always tell people, like, if you're single and you're a 40-year-old woman and you're not looking for a life partner, like this is the best time of your life to go and have some fun because mostly we're, you know, we're still healthy and fit and everything and we can look good and we've got all those chemicals going and, you know, telling everybody that we're really up for it.

And so sending the signal, it's an incredible period actually of people's life, you know, obviously depending what the situation people are in, of course, you understand that. That's if you're single or if you're maybe in an open relationship, which is, you know, depending on the contract you might have with your partner. But for sure, I've had a similar experience of explosion in so many different ways, you know, in a literal and non-literal way where you are discovering this of the forever expanding sort of possibilities of your bodies and your mind. And yeah, it's absolutely amazing to kind of be able to explore that. And I mean, I'm really grateful to have had that time as well. Not that it's over, but it's definitely a chapter where, you know, I felt like anything was possible. Yeah.

I'm kind of relieved in a way that it was a little bit distracting, if I'm really honest. And I'm and I'm not as distracted anymore. So yeah, I'm quite grateful at the fact that I'm not, I'm not like living— I can't remember whether it was George Melly or somebody that said it was like having the monkey on your back, but it really did feel sometimes like a real pressure all the time to just want to have sex. But yeah, I don't, I don't feel that. And when you, when you left your marriage, did you Was it for someone else or did you go on dating apps or like what, how did it manifest itself? I just, yeah.

So there wasn't anyone in particular. There were many.

Oh, right.

Okay. Well, it wasn't, I mean, it wasn't, it wasn't what triggered the sort of breakup, if you like. It was quite a long, so steady and sort of mutual agreement to part. I think we'd come to kind of the end of our relationship and I, you know, that was also completely fine. It happens. But to recognize that, you know, so as soon as possible, so you don't get into drama or because, you know, exits can be complicated. So it was a fairly good sort of divorce in that sense. And no, I went on to exactly what you just said. So Suzanne Noble Noble described, you know, sort of being single once I kind of found my feet a little bit. Had this urge, this libido kind of really just very much there. As you say, that's more than a monkey. I don't know, it was like a gorilla, really just there all the time. It's, yeah, I just went on a lot of dating apps and, you know, were really active, mostly with younger men. You know, that tended to be a thing at the time. You know, so if they were, A lot of them wanted to explore with older women and I was one of them. And, you know, as you said, no strings attached, you know, so completely so free to explore, no desire to settle or have kids or whatever with them. So it was an amazing time. I'm still friends with some of the, you know, the people I met at the time. So it was incredible. Yeah. In that way. Yeah.

I mean, yeah, me too. I mean, I did a little interview this morning for a girl who was doing a documentary about online dating when you're older. And I was really surprised by what she told me, that many of our participants had said they still, they felt a lot of shame about using dating apps and, and feeling like they needed to do that to find someone. And I just thought, really? Because everybody, all the young people are using them now, so it's not, and they don't seem to have any shame around it. So I felt really surprised by that reaction. Is that Is that something you come across when you're working with women? Because I know you said you work with quite a lot of women around divorce, post-divorce, trying to get them back into the swing of things, get their mojo back. What's your experience of that?

Yeah, it's really interesting because a lot of women I work with are midlife or perhaps a little bit later life, you know, so definitely our age group. And It— I don't know if it's a generational thing, because when I work with younger women, sometimes, you know, I don't sort of get that at all. But from the kind of, you know, 50s upwards sort of age group, there tends to be this very strong stigma still very much attached to— I'm not even talking about, you know, casual sex or hooking up. I'm just talking about the dating apps themselves. You know, it's really something that I work with my clients on even before anything, because not everyone, you know, is gonna— this is definitely gonna want to have online fun and so on, but it's definitely a way to— because 50% of women over 50 are, you know, so single. So it's a large group of women, uh, and that grows over time, right, as we know. So how, how to kind of, you know, ensure that we take the shame away from, from, you know, even going on an app and creating your profile. And so I'm helping a lot of women just doing that as a foundation. Yeah.

And why do you— what is it about that, do you think, that scares them? Is it about being vulnerable? Is it about using technology? What is it specifically around using online dating to meet people that frightens— that, you know, that worries them?

Yeah, I mean, my experience of it, uh, both personally and, you know, with my clients, is probably three things. One is the technology. Some people are quite adverse to it, which I understand. It's like, how does it work? Kind of creating the sort of notifications coming up. And so, so it's really kind of demystifying that. And then the other two, exactly what you just mentioned yourself. The second one is not having grown up with those apps and finding yourself maybe sort of 10, 15 years, 20 years later, even more sometimes, having had a monogamous relationship where you didn't have to use the app ever. And then finding yourself faced with that. And then, and I think the third element, which, you know, is probably there for sure, but also sometimes overplayed is the safety side of things, right? People not necessarily feeling safe, but there are ways to work around that. You know, you could have a good buddy that you tell or let know that, you know, you're going to be out and only meeting in public places. I mean, there's just loads of ways to work around that. But I think that those are probably the kind of key fears, I would say. And as you said, ultimately making yourself vulnerable and putting yourself out there, you know, and who do you want to be? What side of you are you going to put on the app, you know? And that can be quite scary, I think, for people as well.

Yeah, I went out with a man once and he had recently left his long-term partner and he went on one of these apps and this gorgeous, gorgeous woman approached him and he got completely wrapped up in this. You know, he was writing her like reams and reams of stuff. In fact, he's no longer with us, but I found a little book that he'd actually written about her. And then he discovered she, she was just, you know, looking for money, right?

Oh, wow.

He was quite shell-shocked by that. So I think it's not just women worry about these things. It's also men. But of course, once you've been burnt once, and hopefully you haven't given anybody any money, and you've, you know, working with people like yourself, you, you, you say, look, if anybody asks you this, do not give away your detail, you know, do you know, you can just prep people on, on the safety aspect, then hopefully you won't, you'll be very you know, mindful of that moving forward. I mean, I think it's almost impossible not to meet somebody who's maybe got an ulterior motive.

That's all right.

Equally, I just think you get familiar with this sort of stuff and then you realize actually there are plenty of nice people out there.

100%. There's loads of nice people. And not only that, but I think, you know, what those apps do, they accelerate, right? So they're going to accelerate the speed. The number of people you might meet and so on. But the principle sort of remains the same, which is if you walk in a bar, you're going to meet someone you've never met and all those potential risks, right, are there. It's just exactly what you said. It's kind of creating your boundaries and, you know, sort of, yeah, making your radar a little bit more sort of accelerated. So, you know, you know what's going on, but I've heard mostly good stories, you know. And, uh, and so I think that's important to sort of say that out there as well, so it's not just the scary, the scary ones. Yeah, yeah.

Nearly everybody I meet, I've met online, to be honest. And I'm, you know, I, I don't have a problem with it. So when we talk about sexual empowerment, which I know is a big word on your website about making women sexually empowered, What does that mean for you?

It means quite a lot of things, but I think the most important thing, and that goes back to what we were saying earlier, is first of all, is this education. So whether it's educating yourself on the apps, because that's not something you've had to use before, educating yourself about, you know, sort of how do you operate on your own if you're just freshly sort of, you know, single, not necessarily freshly, but if you are no longer in a partner sort of relationship, or if you are also educating yourself about things that you can do to create this empowerment. So, so I think the key word around empowerment for me is this sort of knowing that you have agency, that you can take ownership. You know, then I've heard some of your guests saying that previously on your, on your other episodes, but it's just so important to kind of convey that message to women and men, of course, you know, not just women, but tend to work mostly with women. To kind of create your own, you know, your own pleasure. You're responsible for your pleasure. So that's, that's what I, you know, so if I work with, with women, and it doesn't mean that you can't share it, you know, with someone else, of course, but ultimately it starts with you. So that's, that's what female empowerment actually sort of, you know, means for me.

And do you— what's the percentage of women you think that have come to you because they're they're okay but they want more, and people that feel like they've just completely missed out. Yes, that, that they don't even know what sexual empowerment looks like.

Yeah, yeah. And that's really interesting you say that, Suzanne, because I would have— if I had to group, and I don't particularly like to box people, but if I had to group, you know, the, the, the, the women I work with, I would say exactly that. About 50% of the women I work with are they're not clueless, that's not at all, yeah, I don't want to sound negative, but they have never had the chance to explore what it actually means to be sexually empowered, and they might have heard something from their friends or, you know, read something somewhere, and they want to kind of explore more in a very confidential sort of, you know, space, which I offer. And then the other group is, you know, it's a lot more empowered, a lot more in exploratory mode, but they want more. They want to enhance, you know, what else is there that we can do as a couple, or, you know, talking about opening their relationships or talking about stuff. You know, I had a couple the other day who wanted to explore that they are long distance quite a lot of the time. So what, what could be done for them to maintain an active sort of sexual relationship? So, so those are really quite different groups. And I would say about 50-50 of the, of the women I work with. At the moment, but I'm sure it will vary as well. Yeah.

And of the women that have not had or feel like they've missed out on sexual pleasure, what is the motivator for them to do something about it? Because I see a lot of women that I know who feel— who I suspect have come to associate sex just not, not with pleasure but with responsibility. They've been in a relationship where their pleasure hasn't been prioritized at all. And as a result of that, they've probably never experienced what a fulfilling sexual relationship looks like. And so they just think, you know what, I'm menopausal, I'm at the stage where I don't have to have kids anymore, I'm not responsible anymore for procreating, so I'm just going to ditch this and get on with my life without having to think about any of it. And then there's another group that go maybe now's the time to do something. I have to say, I don't meet many of those people. I meet a lot of the other kind, a lot of the other kind. And most of those are people that tell me, I don't even know how you could still be interested in this.

Yeah, yeah. And I agree with you. I think, you know, I think that would reflect as well my experience of people I work with. There's I mean, obviously, because they come to me, you know, they will have had that sort of process that's going on in their lives. But there's exactly all the other women and men who don't even have kind of almost ruled it out, you know, so no sex because it's just too painful, too complicated, too many things. And that's why I spend a lot of time educating yourself out there. And that's why I was delighted to be on your podcast and the importance of kind of, you know, I have my own as well, just being out there and just constantly repeating, you know, the importance of masturbation, of self-love, of self-pleasure. Because if we don't start with that, you know, there's just no need to even talk about the rest. For me, that is the most important message. Yeah, yeah. And there are amazing toys that are available out there. Can really enhance that experience. So even if you're listening and it's not something that is on your mind, and I'm assuming that if you are listening, it's probably on your mind, but if it's not, you know, yeah, it is about starting kind of exploring your body a little bit and just seeing how it reacts and looking at yourself in the mirror and focusing on the positive parts because we're all very beautiful in our own ways. But it's recreating that sort of, you know, that confidence, I think, in the first place.

Yeah, I suppose, you know, it can be very demoralizing, as we know, if you are not the instigator of leaving your relationship and it hasn't been done voluntarily. And you may feel kind of quite rejected by, you know, not just your partner, but that may be a bigger feeling of— so, you know, getting back to your own pleasure, I think, is so important.

Important.

And I know so many people, and I, again, I think there's an age thing about it. We weren't— we didn't have much sex education when we were growing up. I don't know if in France it was any different, but for me, I didn't really have anything. Um, so I kind of had to learn. It was just me and a shower hose for a while, and, and I had to learn all of that stuff, you know, in the field, and And for so many people, the shame is compounded by— might be compounded by religion, might be compounded by other forms, other trauma, you know, trauma, of course, all sorts of other things. So how, you know, is that something that you find as well as having to unravel?

Yes.

Other stuff that goes on around it.

Absolutely. I mean, that's the thing about sex is that we've talked about this energy. Which I think is captured, you know, for me by Lilith. But, you know, ultimately it's this sexual energy that we all have that we could, you know, can be very dormant. So it's about practicing self-compassion to start with. And the work I do, so I'm not a therapist just to be fully clear on that. But I do work, you know, so the model that I've been trained with is very holistic and it does touch on the mind, the energy, the body, of course, the spirit, and then and the emotions as well, because everything is linked. So, so the way I work with my clients is very much to approach all that, all those dimensions, which might then lead to, to a better sort of, you know, sex life. But I agree. I mean, you know, technically we could look at someone coming and saying, well, I've got erectile dysfunction, or, or, you know, so if I've got a dry vagina, great, we can talk about that. But, you know, ultimately I think it needs to be a holistic approach and really understanding what's behind it, What are the emotions? You know, so is it shame? Is it, is it, is it, you know, what's going on in terms of energy? And mindfulness can help. So, so it's really a holistic approach. And I agree with you, you know, that's, that's what we need because we are, we are one. We know we're not just driven by, by that energy, which is obviously amazing as well.

And, and finally, I just want to know, because you mentioned you're not a therapist, what is the specific difference with between a sex coach, for instance, and a sex therapist or a sex therapist?

Yeah, and that's, that's really important as a difference. So the therapist will kind of, you know, is trained to explore the past a lot more, sort of trauma that you've mentioned, yes, of all those different aspects, whereas a coach is focusing more on what's going on, you know, up to now and going forward. So it's focusing on its future focus. So that's, I think that's, that's the big difference. And Often, you know, with the clients that I work with, if I feel there's trauma that hasn't been yet healed, then, you know, so if we do a bit of work, but I also refer them to, you know, sex therapists and vice versa. So if you think of me as someone who's going to help you setting up some sex goals and, you know, achieving them while exploring holistically, that's what I do compared to a therapist who will be more more digging into the past. But we work, you know, sort of together very well. Yeah.

And generally, how often do people see you? Is there— do they see you for like 6 sessions? Do they— is it ongoing? Generally, what's the frequency with which you see your clients?

So, yeah, I want to keep it as short as possible. I mean, I'm not here, you know, it's probably not a good thing for the business, but it's not financially good. No, but equally, you know, I don't, I don't believe in therapy forever. I think it's really important that you're there to support people, you know, at a particular juncture in their life and then let them kind of, you know, carry on with and giving them the tools to do that on their own. So, so hopefully it's more, I'm more in the model of many clients and shorter, but you on average around, around 4 sessions, you know, you usually go through everything. That people need to go. I mean, obviously there's no miracle. It's case by case, depends on how willing they want to kind of change things. But, but equally, you know, so yeah, the long-term sort of therapy, that's, that's not what I'm, what I'm into at all. No.

And finally, I assume people can see you via Zoom or can they— you said you're in London. Can they see you face to face as well?

Yeah, I mean, that's, that's absolutely an option. I tend to do virtual face to face, you know, so as we're doing now, but But equally, you know, if people are keen to kind of do face-to-face, because sometimes it's easier, they're very happy to do that as well. Yep.

And how intimate does it become?

So, yeah, very good question. I think it's on everyone's mind, I'm sure. I don't do— and again, some people are trained for that, but there is no sort of, you know, bodywork in my sessions. I don't do nudity, you know, for the reason that that's not something that I want to focus on specifically. You know, it's really kind of talk, talk, focus, but But I know, you know, so some, some people are trained to do that. And that's also a very good way to, especially around, you know, sort of, I think body shame and so on. You know, that's something that can really help people too. But, but I can recommend, you know, some specialists as well, if that's, that's on people's mind. Yeah.

So nobody's going to be taking their clothes off in front of you. That's good to know.

No, no, not, not, not, not in my practice. Practice anyway.

Anyway, it's been really, really lovely talking to you. It's gone so quickly.

Yes, it has. It's amazing.

I really appreciate it. So I will put your website and everything on as links. And just because you mentioned it, and we're sponsored by Oh My Bod. Oh My Bod are a toy company that do virtual toys. So you can, you can have an app where your partner is in one country and you're in another. And they can be controlling your pleasure. So your clients might want some of that.

Yeah, actually, I've recommended them, not knowing that you were sponsored, but that was one of my recommendations.

Yeah, it's really good.

That's perfect. Suzanne Noble also wanted to do a little plug, if that's okay. I mean, just, yeah, I was just gonna mention earlier, but I just wrote a book called Manhunting in Manhattan, and it's all about sexual pleasure in, you know, sort your late 40s and should be fun. It's coming out of, you know, sort of a long-term marriage. So it's capturing some of our conversation today.

And when is it coming out?

It's coming out in 3 weeks, end of April. Yes.

Fantastic. And who's the publisher?

It's, the publisher is Troubadour. So, yeah. So, so we're looking forward to it. It's very exciting. I co-wrote it with a younger woman who's, who's also amazing. So yeah. Looking forward to talking about that.

Oh, brilliant. Thank you so much. We'll do— we'll put a little plug for that in as well. Thank you, Marie. It's been great to talk to you.

Pleasure. Thanks for reaching out, and, uh, all the best.

Bye-bye.