Episode 82: Finding a 'Quality Man'

This week's episode has been sponsored by Oh My Bod, shifting the evolution of pleasure. Hi, I'm Suzanne Noble, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. And today I'm with Lisa Copeland of findqualityman.com.

.com.

Welcome, Lisa.

Hi, Suzanne Noble. Thank you for having me today.

Thank you for coming on the show. I'm so intrigued. How did you get started as a— I suppose you call yourself a dating coach, do you?

Yeah, dating coach for women over 50 only, though. So I've helped women in their 50s, 60s, and 70s. And the way I got started was I didn't know what I was doing when I started dating after a long marriage. And I think the biggest thing was, is I had absolutely no confidence.

None.

And I remember my very first date, I looked in my closet, I felt like, oh my God, I have nothing to wear. And I really didn't because I had just been going to my kids' softball games and stuff like that. And then I I called my sister and I said, oh, who's he gonna like me? I was giving my power away everywhere, and I was crying a lot. So I just, you know, I heard a statistic that like me, many women were out there crying. And when I ended a second marriage, I called my sister and I said, I went looking for a coach. My sister's like my greatest coach, but she's a sister. I've been looking for a coach. There's nobody out there for women over 50. And you know, who wants to tell a guy in their 20s or 30s what it's like to take your clothes off, you know, after you've had babies? Yeah. And as we're aging, we have such a non-acceptance of our bodies. So that's how I got into it, because then I— my sister said to me, oh my God, you are so resourceful, just go figure it out.

I did.

And friends started doing things that I gave them tips on, and And then that statistic came up about how many people are divorcing, and I said, oh God, I don't want women to cry like I did. This should be fun. And so that's how I got there.

And have you found a quality man, Lisa?

Yes, finding a quality man is a redefinition also of what we think is quality. There's a lot involved in that question. Why?

Yeah, I mean, what's quality to one is not necessarily quality to another, right? I mean, what we define as quality is so subjective. I mean, for me, just a guy who turns up when he says is quality. So, you know, I fairly— my friends would say to me, I have fairly low standards.

Well, one of the things I help clients with is to define define what quality is. Yeah, because you're right, it is subjective. But most people go out there and they think, if a guy— if my body, you know, gets all revved up when I meet someone, instant attraction, chemistry, he's got to be a good guy. But you know what, when we get that chemical hormonal thing going on, those shoots of hormones, we are trusting people that are not necessarily trustable because we're in lust. So yeah, I help them really define quality for them, and it really is much deeper than most people go because they, they stop at attraction. You want to really share values that are similar. Absolutely.

It's always interesting you say that about— we talk a lot about not just attraction, but my, you know, some of my friends, for instance, say, I just don't get that hormonal hit anymore from being with a man, you know, or being with a sex that I'm attracted to, whether it's a woman or a man or, or, or whatever. Because of course our bodies, menopausal bodies, don't function in the same way. So I think we expect that hormonal hit, then we don't get it, and we're like, oh, Oh, well, maybe this means I'm not attracted to them, right? But so for me, in a way, like not getting the hormonal hit as I used to is probably a good thing because I used to let my downstairs dictate a lot of when I'm upstairs.

When I was younger. I love that.

And now my downstairs doesn't dictate as much to my upstairs. My upstairs actually can remain fairly rational. While my downstairs is pretty much falling asleep.

Yeah, well, this is why I help women redefine what quality is for them. And we're also looking for different things. When we were young, we needed those hormonal hits because whether you had babies or not, your body was run by babies and having a kid. And so you were looking for Mr. Hottie to have a Mr. Tough Strong Guy to have, you know, survival of the fittest is from the caveman days. And we're like one of the first generations to be out there dating like this. Yeah. And we get confused. We think— we go back to how we dated in our 20s versus coming to today. And it's a really hard shift because people have— they get the concept, okay. When I tell clients, okay, don't use chemistry as number one, but what do they do? Of course revert back to number one. And then we have to re— starting to develop that friendship, do some kissing, because sometimes when you start kissing, some of that hormonal stuff kicks off.

Yeah, for sure.

And but it's really about companionship today. It's about play and fun, because most people, as they're coming into their 50s, they're facing the empty nest syndrome. And, you know, it's a whole different way to redefine what you want today, because nobody's done that. We're the first to do this. And that's important to define why you want that relationship. Not— oh, because we always defined without consciously baby, baby, baby in our 20s, and in our 50s it is companionship and play and fun and having someone's back and being there for each other.

Yeah, absolutely. And I watched a video that you, you did with one of your clients who went online dating and clearly was really didn't know how to behave in that environment, and you helped her to navigate that world a little bit. I heard you say you picked people's profile pictures. How deep do you go in into that whole world of online dating? Because I think a lot of us are out there on the apps, on the dating sites, and there's a lot of people who clearly don't know what to do. Mostly, I have to say, men.

You mean you don't like the 36 toilets behind them that they took at a public restroom?

I tell you, I see a guy from time to time, and I said to him, if I just based our meeting on your picture, you'd look like a serial killer. I mean, I'm sorry, you really did. And I was just hoping that you were actually not gonna chop me up into a million pieces.' And when he turned up, he was actually really good looking. I just went, 'Why? Like, couldn't you have found one decent pic— get a friend to take a picture,' you know?

No, no, men are not going to ask for help. You know that. Oh, I will tell you something, they're not the only ones that don't like to ask for help. We as women actually don't like to ask for help because we think it makes us also look weak. But when working with a man, it actually makes you stronger. But yes, I'd say 99.9% of my clients have found love online. Just a few have done it in real life. And I was doing my group last night, and one of the women is, uh, going on a fourth date. And she said the man said to her, the observation was, you really know yourself and what you want.

Amazing.

She did end up telling him, I work with a dating coach. And that is the biggest thing. We don't always know who we are, and we don't always have confidence in ourselves. It's one of the reasons that I end every session, if someone hasn't told you today, you are enough, because we don't feel enough. And we really need to know we are enough. We are worthy of having what we want. And this is what we want. And we— and they do a deep dive. That's why she knew what she wanted. And it really opens the possibilities because if you're running around using the barometer of chemistry, it's really hard, especially after menopause, to say, oh yeah, this is the guy.

Yeah, and I think, look, knowing what you want when you are out there is so attractive to people because there's no, there's no confusion around what is this, right? If you're, if you're just want to be with somebody just for a sex thing, for instance, you can just go, look, this is just I'm happy with this, that we just meet up, we just have fun, and you don't have to be my everything in my world. We can just have this thing and it's cool, it's fine. Very few people are clear like that because, as you said, there's this whole expectation around the dating that we did when we were younger, the marriage that we had when we were younger, the relationship that we expected when we were younger, and we load all of that onto this person 30 years later and think, I'm still looking for the one, right? How many of your clients— I personally don't believe at this age that the one needs to be the one. That's my personal view, is that people have all different aspects of their character that can be interesting for just what they are. Without needing— I'm not making babies anymore, so they don't need to do— they don't need to do a lot of that stuff, you know. They don't need to be the dad anymore or anything like that. How many of those women that you work with are still stuck in that, that old notion of that guy?

Well, you know, we grew up on fairy tales. We grew up on Prince Charming. Well, Let me back up with that, because I remember when I divorced, I was in a 24-year marriage.

Wow.

My idea from growing up with fairy tales was Prince Charming would come in, sweep me off my feet, pay for everything. We would never argue. I could keep my own stuff, my own money. I mean, it's all ridiculous, but this is what we grew up on. And truthfully, A lot of women still feel that way. We also are in old paradigms of it has to be marriage. And one of the things I teach clients is, no, you have choices. You can now have a guy friend when you're not dating. That is the best, to be hanging around guy energy that way. You can have a boyfriend, you can have a long-term committed relationship, living together, living apart. You can have marriage, you can be in a relationship and say, you know what, this was fun, I need time by myself again, I'm out. And then be in another one. No, it doesn't— people might go like, ooh, really? Isn't that like, ooh, ooh, ooh? But we no longer live in the paradigm at this age of it has to be marriage, it has to be till the end of life. It does not. Although people want that because they don't want to be alone. But here's hot news: we all die alone. But the other thing is, is for women, chances are you will be alone at that time because we outlive men. Now, that— all that being said, I love supporting women on this journey of finding love because it can be so much fun and it can be fulfilling. But we do come with more stuff, and it's really changing your vision of how it has to look or how it looked in the past. You were right, we're lumping stuff from back there on stuff today, and it is definitely about changing that paradigm and making this fun. Yeah, you know, and creating what we want. As younger women, we got into such traditional roles. I love the generation today, millennials, Gen Z, they They, the men help. They're not going off to work and not changing a diaper, you know, whereas, and what we do and why so many women are afraid of a relationship, they're afraid they're going to get in there and lose their independence again.

Yeah.

Yeah. And yeah. And you know, it doesn't have to be that way.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and also the other funny thing that I was, I sing on the part-time and I was talking about a guy that fixes things and you're one of one of your ladies was saying, you said, what does your relationship look like? And she said, oh, I went on this date and this guy said, is there anything around your house that needs fixing?

And she said, she said, yes, there is.

And I was like, a woman after my own heart. We, we, doesn't matter what age we are, if we've got a fixing guy, it's really, we're so happy.

But you want to know something about that? We as women want the fixing guy, but we want them to do it We want them to do it our way. We end up training men to stop giving to us because we are telling them you did it wrong. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But they did it. This goes to everything at this day and age. Nobody's doing anything wrong necessarily. It's so that we have an expectation of how it has to look.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Yeah. And we're not giving people a chance. Like you talked about the guy you met who was quite nice looking in real life. So you have to think of online dating as a virtual cocktail party. At a cocktail party, a guy that you swipe left on, on a dating site would be a right once you saw his personality.

True. Yeah. And that's the big challenge with online dating is that We, we, you know, it's all superficial, right? So half of what people swipe right or left for is back to this whole idea of chemistry and attraction. You're telling people you need to find the quality guy. It's not necessarily based on chemistry and attraction. That's counterintuitive, don't you think, with, with the way that these apps behave, which is to just judge people on first sight? So how do you take something which counterintuitive to actually— because let's face it, Tinder, Bumble, Hinge, whatever you're on, their, their business model is to get you back, right? They don't want you to find a guy. They don't want you to because they want you to come back. Because if you— if everybody just found a person that was awesome and they left, they'd have no customers. So for me, they build in they build in mechanisms to keep you engaged, right? For instance, if you've just been on a date with somebody and you go back on the app and it shows you that that person is back online, your immediate feeling is one of fear. That's how I feel anyway, right? I think, oh, I just went— that went really well. I guess they don't like me because they're back on the app, right? And everything. So it's, it's telling you they could be looking at your profile. They could be reading your profile again because they got back. They're so excited. They want to remind themselves how awesome you are. But of course, my immediate feeling when I see that they're back on is that they're, they're probably scoping out again. And obviously it's a candy shop. So people do. I've, I've, I've had people tell me I just am a serial dater now because these things just are designed to be compelling in that way, to get you to, to keep going back. So how do we find a quality man when in that environment? I'm—

I—

because, because I find it tough, you know, I do.

So, um, It goes back to having that clear vision of the right man for you and of giving really nice guys a chance. The biggest— I have a friend who says to me, women don't like nice guys, they want those bad boys, they want guys that are not nice to them. And one of the reasons for that is they— bad boys know what to say to make you feel that tingliness again inside.

Yeah.

They say, I'll put you on a pedestal, yada yada. And their actions don't follow their words. The key is going out there and looking for someone who is really a nice guy who's going to care about you, who's going to bring you chicken soup when you're sick and leave it, or have COVID and leave it on your doorstep. But we go out there, it goes back again to going out and looking for that instant chemistry. It's having that clear vision of what is important to you, which I tell my clients, which is a little bit hard to do on apps. It's about easier on dating sites because you write a profile. Profile. Look for in what they're sharing. Can you see any values about them? Can you see, um, anything about if they seem nice, if they seem warm? The biggest problem is, and the biggest sabotager, is our minds, because our minds tell stories about who people are and what they're thinking. And so just like you said, so, oh my God, he's online, he's looking around, he doesn't like me. And you, you address that very well. And what you said of, well, he might be looking at you again, you know, it's— you don't know. But you're also not in a relationship. You've met somebody one time or talked to them on the phone one time. Of course they're online, you know, you're not the only one. And you're not in a relationship. And I think getting real clear that you're not in a relationship is important too, because we put expectations on a guy if we're in a relationship with them that should not be there in a dating situation of, I'm just going to go out and meet someone new and interesting. That's all you want to do. And if you stop doing that dating resume, which is the most boring thing in the world to ask, how, you know, what's your sign? How many kids do you have? Where'd you go to school. That is boring. Nobody has a personality answering crap like that. So I always say ask questions. Say like, you know, I love to ask— I love to talk about different things, you know. Can we, can we shift off the dating resume and talk about some fun things? Like, what do you love to do for vacation? What's your favorite book? You know, ask stuff that can bring out conversation. It makes both of you look warmer. It gives you an opportunity to laugh. It gives you an opportunity to your history from the time you were both born and grew up in. And it's so much better than, I'm hunting for the one, I gotta decide before my cup call. You know what? I'm looking for someone new and interesting. I want to see how I might fit them in my life in those different relationships I shared earlier.

Yeah. And not investing too much hope. I think for me, the biggest thing and the biggest issue I see is that every day is loaded with expectation and hope instead of you're just going to meet somebody new.

That's it. That's all.

Yeah, they could be interesting. They could be very uninteresting, but whatever it is, it is, you know, it's half an hour. It's an hour maximum of your time if you follow the 1-hour rule. I don't know how you feel about that. Personally, I think the 1-hour rule, for those of you who don't know, is, you know, you give your first date an hour. And then, you know, you kind of cut it off unless it's like amazing. Is that— what do you think? What's your ideal kind of like— what's your ideal— okay, you've arranged to meet someone. What's your— how do you set that up?

I'm going to answer that. I'll probably say, can you remind me of the question? But I want to go back to what we were just talking about. One of the other saboteurs is we go and we hunt for what's wrong with someone. Everybody's got stuff wrong. You want to— the reason I say go out and meet someone new and interesting is because your job is to find out something interesting about them. Okay? And in an hour that you were just talking about, an hour, you can find out 3 things about this person. That should be your goal. Find out 3 things about them. Stop looking for what's wrong because everybody has stuff wrong. I mean, of course, There are things that are wrong that you don't want to be with, but you know what I mean? It's like we're protecting our hearts. All right, now back to the time on a date. The first date, believe it or not, is a lot easier than the second date because the first date— I, I do encourage that you, my clients, keep any first meeting under 2 hours or less. I think 1 hour is even better because what happens is, is if you talk too much on that date Where do you start on a second date? I mean, second dates I think are some of the hardest because you, you have to try and find another connection that you found on the first date.

Yeah.

And to see what's there. And again, instead of going and being nervous about this, go in with that attitude of, I'm gonna find out 3 more things about them that might be interesting. And stop protecting your heart if you want love. You need to be out there vulnerable. It's, you know, we do get hurt. I'm sorry, we do. But the goal is to heal and go back out. And, and because we want love, we want that heart connection with someone. And but remember, you always have choice. You can say yes or no. Yeah.

And do you have any— there's, you know, there's, there's in the feminist world in which we live. And obviously some of us grew up maybe with parents that weren't feminists, so some of us have traditional values, some of us have non-traditional values, all that sort of thing. Do you have— do you find that most women still expect a man to pay on the first date, or are you for the going Dutch thing? How do you feel about You know, all of that sort of stuff, because that to me sometimes is a little bit contentious. Frankly, if it's a cup of coffee and it's relatively cheap, I'm still a traditional girl and I would like the man to pick up the tab for that. I'm just saying, I'm just saying I would because, yeah, and maybe that's not right and maybe everyone's going to go, come on, Suzanne, we live in 2024, you know, blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah. But I still kind of expect there's a little bit of that for me.

Well, we're a different generation also than younger, you know, the younger generation. So you have to separate and sort that out with what we grew up with. I think if a man asks you out for the first 3 dates, it's okay if he pays. By the third one, if you think you're going to go out again, say, you know what, 'Can I, can I do the tip? Would it be okay with you if I do the tip?' But he can choose restaurants that he can pay for. When you get into a relationship, yeah, you want to contribute, you want to figure out what that looks like. Some men will say, 'Absolutely not, you're not paying for anything.' So then what you do is you buy the popcorn at the movie, or you have them for dinner. I mean, a guy doesn't get a home-cooked meal. Most of them are not cooks, you know. Once you get to know them. Don't do that on the first or second date, but, you know, have them for brunch or have them for dinner or something. There are other ways to do that. But yeah, I do say the first 3 dates, it's okay to let them pay, because just what you said, when you think about it, on those first 3 dates, if they don't pay, you go, what's wrong with him? And I— it's not that there's anything wrong with it, because what we were doing was we were saying, I'm willing to contribute, but I really don't want to yet. Oh, that's funny.

I mean, the thing for me is that on the flip side of that is I've had some first dates where somebody's taken me to a really expensive restaurant, right? And they've started to get a bit fruity during, you know, during that. And I'm like, not really into them in that way. And thinking—

Wait, you have to tell me what fruity is because I think that's Be an English term. Never heard that.

Rude is, you know, frisky, right? Like they're putting their hand on my leg under the table. They're doing all that sort of stuff, right? And I'm thinking to myself, this meal is going to cost a lot of money. I know it's going to cost a lot of money. They bought some expensive wine. You know, we're talking like over $200 probably for this meal. And I'm starting to feel pressured. Into potentially going to bed with them because this meal is, you know, it's significant, right? So for me, I, I try to avoid— I mean, there's a part of me that's like, oh, I kind of fancy a nice meal. And I know that this guy's, you know, he's, he's got the cash and he's going to do it. But then the flip side is that if I turn up, I don't like him, and I'm eating at this expensive restaurant, then I'm— there's a big dilemma in my head because I'm aware of that, that this is now becoming slightly transactional. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, that doesn't feel good.

And it doesn't feel good. And I'm feeling— so I, I also think there needs to be some degree of, of sensitivity on that first date that you don't put anybody in a situation where there's an inequality when, when it comes to how much they're spending, you know, because it's okay, you know, like on the third date if it's all going well and they go, I want to take you out somewhere really nice and it's all— and it's looking like it's progressing, then yeah, that might be something really special to do. But I always think first date, I want to do something that's fairly low cost, so, so I don't have to get into Oh my God, they just spent a whole load of money and now I feel like I might need to speak to them again. I don't really want, you know, like it, it, that financial thing, because let's face it, finances in relationships are a thing, right? And that's another thing about the find a quality man. Like it might be important to you that somebody is, has some degree of, you know, of salary to give you, or, you know, to meet yours, or, or whatever it happens to be. But I do think the finance thing also for me is quite important, not just in the first date, but just in terms of how I, you know, how I'm gonna be in that relationship, right? I don't want to be putting my hand in my pocket all the time, and nor do I want to feel like every time they do, I owe them something.

So I think that, um, one of the things is that we don't have— because we always like to be the good girl and everyone like us— are boundaries.

Boundaries.

If a guy chooses to take you to an expensive restaurant on a first date, let them pay. That was his choice. But if he puts— starts putting his hand on your leg What you do want to say is, I'm feeling a little bit uncomfortable. Can I just say I'm feeling a little bit uncomfortable as I get to know you? You know, you could put your hand on my leg, but right now I don't know you. And it is okay to say that because we were taught to be little good girls with our hands folded in our laps. And, you know, we were just really taught and some not good boundaries.

Yeah, well, let's face it, a lot of women of our age, we weren't taught those boundaries, you know, because of the time in which we grew up. I mean, I look at younger women and they— well, some of them anyway— seem quite clear with younger men about boundaries. I would say that there's a lot more awareness of that now than there used to be, but I know that You know, setting boundaries is not something that we were really taught. So again, I think it's something that we need to be taught as we reengage with this dating world because it, you know, we don't know these people, right? We, it's just, we're just meeting, we're meeting, we're not meeting friends of friends like we used to, um, at parties. At— in the dorm rooms or whatever, you know, we're meeting them in this kind of artificial environment and we need to be careful. Have you ever— have you— I'm curious. Normally we do 30 minutes, but I'm just really enjoying this. So I'm just curious to know, have you ever had women that have come to you having had Scams, bad experiences, like dip their toe in and it didn't go well for them.

Yes, I'm going to go back one second here to the sex thing to give a boundary, and I'll tell you the scam real quick. I had a guy back in the day who, oh, second date, started pushing for sex, and I set the boundary. I said, I feel uncomfortable right now. 'cause I would like to get to know you better. And he got really mad and really upset, okay? And he ended up storming out and he called me, said, you know, I was really out of line, I'd like to take you out to dinner to make it up to you. So I met him, you know, again, and he kind of started in again. And I decided, you know what, if this man cannot respect an honor. Well, it's more of honor where I'm at. And he can't wait. He's not the guy for me. And I said to him, we're not a match, and I'm sorry, you know, thank you for dinner, goodbye. Yeah, you do need to honor yourself. We don't— we disempower ourselves and we don't know how to say it. So that's a way you say it and get real clear. You do not ever have to give anything away that you don't want to give away. Okay, scams. Um, yes, I've had clients that have been near misses with scams. I've had clients that were scammed. And, um, your question specifically about this, how to recognize who they are, what is it that you'd like to know?

Yeah, I suppose, you know, what was it about the scam that led, you know, what happened? And just get— just one circumstance is fine, but I'm just curious, how was it their first time? Like, what, what was the actual scam?

Yeah, the scam's always the same. They choose women. There's something in profiles that triggers them. Either it's, I'm looking for my soulmate, I'm so lonely, I'm so always working, I really want to find a guy. When you show any kind neediness in your profile, um, that's an automatic trigger that you're looking, you know, for them. The thing that has become really difficult now is they use AI technology to write where they could not before. They got you on the phone right away. One of the things you can notice about AI technology is it's very full of adjectives and full of very very flowery sentences. I mean, yeah, yeah, and don't talk like that, okay? They don't talk in flowery conversation. Yeah. So that's a real tip-off. If you can't— I always tell women, if you meet someone that cannot meet within 2 weeks, number 1, short 5 to 10 emails. This is for everyone, 5 to 10 short emails. Do not get into full conversations and emails. You do not want a pen pal say I would love to answer your question. It feels like it would be better to do it over the phone or meet in person. You're not asking them out. You're just telling them it's okay to call you or to ask you out. Then if you do phone calls, no more than 1 to 2, because once they capture you on the phone and you're talking, talking, talking, they will find your Achilles tendon. And this is what you don't want to happen, what your weakness is. And they will identify and you will feel understood. So Stay off that phone more than like an hour conversation one time. If they cannot meet you, if they can't meet within 2 weeks, or if they say, I am out of the country, but I'm coming back, or I'm in Texas on an oil rig or whatever freaking thing they say to you, and they can't meet within 2 weeks, you say, I enjoyed talking with you. When you come back in the area, let's, you know, reach out and we can meet then. That's the most important thing.

Yeah, very, very, very good lessons, Lisa. Incredibly good lessons. No, I think it's really important. Too many people get involved in this, this ping pong ball text messaging thing goes on forever. They get— they feel like they're understood, as you say. And then by the time they've met, they've almost been in love with this person, you know. So I've seen that as well. And to be honest, I've, I've, you know, back in my early days of doing this, I would be involved in that sort of stuff, which I I just don't anymore because who has the time?

Well, if you're not, you know, if you're kind of lonely, and COVID created a lot of lonely situations that have continued on because people lost connections and all that kind of stuff, and someone gets you on the phone and they're identifying, your heart does start to connect. So that when you come in for the scam, whether it's something that's happened to their child, something that's business-wise happened to them. You have fallen in love with this idea of who you think they are in your head. Yeah. And that's how they pick you off. And they'll, they'll ask for the money, and they may cry or whatever, and you go— it may not too, but then you say, of course I'll give it to you, I'm so sorry. And you write, you wire that money. Never give someone money that you have never met. No, absolutely.

Yeah, no, I know, it's really terrible. Anyway, it has been so lovely to chat with you. I've really enjoyed it. And I hope we'll actually get to have another chat at some point in the future because I get the feeling that you have a lot of information that could be very, very useful to our listeners.

I've been doing this a long ass time.

All of this kind of stuff, they really do struggle. So I'll put all your website details and all of that sort of everything in the summary for this. And thank you very much. It's been great. It's been great talking to you.

Oh, Suzanne, thank you for having me. And when the people go to my website at findthequalityman.com, there are free gifts there where you— to help you jumpstart your late love life or to get started on it. So check them out. I mean, you know, it's— it works. But thank you for having me. Love supporting women on this journey, and stay safe and have fun.

Thank you.