Episode 83: Sex and Dating when a Widower

This week's episode has been sponsored by Oh My Bod, shifting the evolution of pleasure. Hi, I'm Suzanne Noble, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors, and today I am with Christine Baumgartner from theperfectcatch.com. Yep, we're on that dating roll a bit from last week, but this week we're going to be talking specifically about a circumstance that's very particular not only to Christine but to so many other people that are re-engaging with dating, and that is when you've— when your partner has died and you suddenly find yourself a widow and you want to go back into the world of dating. And Christine, welcome to the show. Welcome.

I'm thrilled to be here. I neglected to ask you, is your audience both men and women?

Yes, it is. Okay, it is.

So I can address it to both people because it is a challenge for both sides and has some different challenges when you return to dating after being widowed. Yeah. Yeah.

So, uh, tell me first of all When did you— when did your husband die and how long had you been together?

My story is so different than— because I coach a lot of widow people.

Yeah.

My husband and I were— we knew each other for 7 years. We met on Match.com and we were only married for 5 years when he died suddenly. Very sad.

That's very sad.

But I say the thing that the Julia Roberts character said in Steel Magnolias that I'd rather have 5 years of really great than, you know, a lot of years of mediocre because it was lovely. And it's now been 11 and a half years.

Wow. Wow. And so was your— because I read about you and that you'd studied with the guy who wrote Men Are from Mars and Women Are from Venus, which I was— I'd love to probably do a whole show about what that was like.

But so fun. So funny. It was actually— I was invited to become a coach for his new telephone program the first 2 years I became a coach 14 years ago. And then I got to fly up north to do videos with him. And he's delightful. He's really fun to be in presence with. Yeah.

Wow.

He's also a widower. His wife, Bonnie, died. I think it's been 4 years now. So yeah, he's in the same club that none of us want to join because the fee is pretty high.

Yeah, I bet. So, so yeah, just tell me a little bit about your experience and then what— how that informs what you do.

Wow. So I learned I was single for a very long time between my divorce and when I married my late husband. And I dated a lot and didn't have any interest in getting married. It was super fun 'cause I never really dated before I married the first time.

Yeah.

So then when I decided I wanted to get married, it turned out I continued to date the kind of people I wouldn't marry, which hadn't been a problem till I decided I wanted to get married. So I had to go, well, gosh, what is it? And so I went, what's the trait? There must be traits that I'm saying I don't want. And it turned out there was. And then it turned out it was me that was being attracted, as you know, I was my first client being attracted to this trait and attracting the trait. So when I went through some therapy and came up with this method that I now teach on how to reprogram what I thought I deserved, I met and married my lovely husband who didn't have those traits because I decided, yeah, those were the right traits for me to marry. Yeah. So I'd only coached divorced people. I, so I started becoming a coach. I'd had a, a company before. I worked all the time. I didn't wanna work all the time anymore now that I'm married and I have a stepdaughter. So my friends all said, well, what did you do to change this around? And so I said, oh, I'll just tell you. I don't know if it'll work. And they started dating people that were much more to their liking. So I said, well, I, I'm now, I found out I could be a coach, sit in my chair and help people all over the world. So I was coaching divorced people happily, and then my husband died suddenly. And now you don't know unless you're widowed what it's like to be widowed. It's just— no matter how empathetic you are, no matter how understanding you try to be, it's anything in the world that if you haven't experienced it, it's really impossible to really know. So then I reached out to a couple of Facebook pages and a couple of local groups of widowed people. And just for my support because I have great family and friends. But they started asking me, well, what do you do? Because people just ask. And so now I have more widowed people than divorced people and also more men than women. How cool is that?

Wow.

Yeah. So my journey, the challenges I had as a widow are very can be a little different than the people that have been married for 20, 30, 40, 50 years. A lot of my clients have been married a lot longer than me, than I was married. And so some of their concerns are harder than mine. But one of the things is about using like online dating. Nobody knows what they're doing. And I didn't either, because I met my husband in 2005. We got married in 2007. He died in 2012. And in that short amount of time, online dating even changed. So people that haven't dated in 20, 30, 40-plus years have no idea how to date, and people think they should just know how to date.

Yeah.

The other thing that— for the extra pieces for widowed people is, if you've been married for any length of time, you have like a second language with each other. You just know stuff. You, you know the mood, you know how to talk to each other, you know how to help them understand you. And now, oh my gosh, you have new people that you have to talk about yourself and learn about them. And it's very hard. And then especially online stuff, people have a lot of worry and fear about it. And I know all the ways to see around scammers, so I help people look past that. Yeah. But I'm going to talk about, because this is the sex show and it's one of, I said, it's one of my favorite subjects to talk about. The thing that women worry the most about is, oh my gosh, when I met my, married my husband, I always had a 20-year-old body and now I have a 50-year-old body or a 60-year-old body or a 70.

Yeah.

And I don't look the way I did.

Yeah.

And they— we think that the men that we're dating are going to expect us to look that way. And I'm here to tell you, no.

Yeah.

Yes, there's a segment of men that like— every man has a kind of a type, you know. Some of them like big boobs and little boobs. Some like big butts and little butts. Some like blonde hair. Some like dark hair. Some Some like tall, some like short. That's not, you're fat, because that's what we think about. We're, when I talk to a woman, I'll say, all right, give it to me. Tell me all the things you think are wrong with your body. And typically I count in about a minute, they can come up about with 15 to 20 things off the top of their head. Isn't that sad? About places that go in where they shouldn't, poke out where they shouldn't, hang different than they should. It's wild. And the sad reason that we can say it so quickly and effortlessly is because it's constantly going on in our head.

Yeah.

And I think, oh, that's so sad because we're criticizing ourselves all day long, every day, back here. Not here, but back here. So The majority of men, good men, if they are interested, if they talk to us in the form of asking us out, if they ask us out, if they're sitting across the table from us, the thing I need to convince women, and I'm hoping you're all gonna believe me because I get lots of eye rolls when I say this, they like how you look. I don't care how much push-up and shove-over you got going on under your clothes. Men are pretty smart. If they're over 50, they've seen enough naked women, hopefully, in their lives, at least 2 or 3 maybe. They know what's going on under our clothes. And they know what's happening with age with them and with us.

Yes.

But we are so concerned that they aren't going to like how we look and they don't like how we look. And if they're sitting there and they ask you out again and they ask you out again, they like how you look. Guaranteed. Men do not— I'm telling you, ladies, I need women to believe me— they do not spend their time, energy, and money if they don't first off like how we look. It's one of the good ways to know this is who men are. Men are very visual. They like looking at us. They like appreciating our bodies. So if we could just relax and say, he's there, he's paying attention to me. Now, if you relax, then you go, do I like him? Do I like how he looks? Do I like what he says? Do I like how he thinks? Do I like how he's treating me? Do I like how I feel around him? Get the other part out of your head because then there's lots of room to go, well, what do you think? What kind of questions did you need to ask to see if you like him? What kind of questions do you need to ask to see how you feel about him? Do you feel comfortable enough saying, oh, that was a good point, and touching their hand to see if the energy feels good, or to pretend or real pick a piece of lint off. I— this is what I teach women to do because I want you to see how does it feel to be near him, how does it feel you be in charge of a little touch just to see. So then when women are done rolling their eyes at me and explaining to me that I don't know what I'm talking about, even though I talk to men all day long, every day who tell me this.

Yeah.

So I say, this is where you get to be in the driver's seat. And this is when you get to take back your power. So how do we combat this thing in our head that's going on all the time telling us negative things? So one of the exercises I give all my female clients and certainly my widowed ones especially if their husband said they liked them, they liked how they looked, they patted them on the butt when they walked through the kitchen, they liked kissing them, they liked making love to them. I need them to make a list of all the things that their husband liked about their boss.

Yeah.

And it's really good if they'll put it up on their bathroom mirror and every day when they brush their teeth, read the list out loud. Because what'll happen is it'll help balance all this negative self-talk and add in some positive self-talk. Because sometimes even though their husbands have said all those positive things, they haven't always taken them in.

Yeah, yeah, sure.

So when you're gonna go out on a date, wear something that makes you feel beautiful and you feel comfortable in so you don't fidget, because the guy will be concerned he said something to make you feel uncomfortable if you're fidgeting because your clothes are moving around or the buttons are too tight or it's riding up. Wear something that you feel comfortable in and beautiful. And then if you feel comfortable enough and you've touched him and that feels comfortable enough, then when you leave each other, have a hug. See if that feels okay. And then the next time, if you've liked him enough, kiss him and see if that feels good. And know that if he's still there, he likes how you look. And he will like how you look naked. So what I tell women is, if you've progressed in your dating phase and you've now decided you're going to have a monogamous relationship with this person and you're going to get naked together, also wear something that you feel comfortable in, beautiful. And I've had a number of women clients who like— I'm not a lingerie per— I am a lingerie person, but they're not.

Me too.

Yeah, I love lingerie. I have so much But she wasn't. I said, well, he's not going to care. What would you like to wear? What would make you feel comfortable? She goes, a t-shirt. I said, well, go buy a new t-shirt that's really cute and that you love, because trust me, it's not going to be on that long. And so she texted me the next day and said, it worked.

I go, I know.

So where would you feel beautiful and comfortable with when you're going to get naked?

Yeah, and I would also say to that, you know, like for me, the whole lingerie thing, I mean, I, I do like my body, but I, I hear a lot of what you're saying, and I know a lot of women that really feel a lack of confidence around their body, and a lack of confidence in general is not very attractive, let's face it. And confidence in itself, no matter what your body looks like, is really attractive. And yeah, And what people are often attracted to is the confidence, not necessarily the fact that you look like a supermodel, but just the fact that clearly you're confident in your skin, you're happy, you're, you know, like you say, you're comfortable and you're not trying overly hard to, to try and be something that you're not. And for me, the lingerie thing is also because let's face it, We all do have lumps and bumps, and I do think that silky sexy lingerie covers up some of that stuff and is provocative, and it can stay up. Personally, I kind of like it to stay on because I think there's a lot more you can do when it's on and do all sorts of things. Once it's off, it's off, but it's, you know, there's, there's the revealing of the flesh that's also erotic. And I think that's part of the, the little tease is, is appreciating— like, men love visual stuff, as you said, right? So the lingerie is a tease, and, and all of this kind of stuff is a little, little bit of a cleavage is a tease. It's just, you know, think about how you can just, you know, provide those little glimpses into the— that other side of you, right? So yeah, I can— I completely hear you.

Great advice. And so I will agree, both men and women tell me all the time the most sexy thing to both of them is self-confidence. Totally. Oh, all the time. Yeah, all the time. Somebody who feels, as you said, comfortable in their skin comfortable with who they are. You don't feel them apologizing. Yeah, you don't feel them making less of themselves. They stand in their authenticity and they're proud.

Exactly.

So the other thing that men complain about a lot is that when we— the man says, oh, I just love your boobs, or I love— they like putting their hands on a poochy tummy. Most men do not like really super skinny women. They like a little pooch. They like a little thing. And the women are like, well, then the women went, but then there's this, and did you not see that? And, and they're like, stop. Because they don't see— truly, hand to God, they don't see any of that. They see beautiful, sexy, naked woman I get to make love to. Oh my God. So stop interfering with all that, because that's really how they think. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's really how they think. So men, since you have male listeners too—

yeah, and I'm curious, I was just about to ask you, but you preempted me, Christine.

Well, I think we're on the same wavelength there, Miss Suzanne Noble. Men, when it comes to dating, they have the same thing. They had a second shorthand with their wives. They feel like they're just going to put their foot in their mouth all the time. They're very concerned about doing the wrong Yeah, so if we could help them, it would be really nice. Yeah, because most of them have such good intentions. And when it comes to being naked, mostly they don't worry about their bodies quite as much as we do. It's not like they're unconcerned. They worry about getting hard and staying hard. Yeah, because it's a challenge. I mean, women, everything gets dry. Nobody tells you everything. Gets dry as you get older, and we need lots of things everywhere to be not so dry. So I'm a big lube fan. And guys, as their testosterone gets less, can— not all, but can— start having a problem getting an erection or keeping an erection. So for them to be patient about it, for the women to be patient about it. So what I always tell both sides is Can you have an orgasm on your own? If not, please go talk to a medical person. Yeah, because there might be something medically that could be done.

And, and we've— we had a guy on the program who runs a company called FirmTech talking about nocturnal erections being a real signifier of whether or not you might have heart disease or some sort of vascular health problem. You know, it's such a massive thing, and and this whole talk about— we call them unreliable erections. Um, you know, I, I'm personally like a big Cialis, Viagra fan. I don't really, I don't really see the problem with it. It's like it solves an issue that lots of men worry about, and it doesn't work if they're not aroused. So that's, you know, it's not like your dick's just suddenly going to get hard. So I don't really see the problem, you know, like I had a partner who just said, oh, I don't want to take that. It's not going to work for me. You know, and I just said, well, but you want— this is something that's bothering you and this can potentially sort this out. So I don't really see the problem, frankly. But yeah, and similarly, you know, lube, vaginal estrogen, like there's stuff out there that can help. It's just cock rings are awesome. Like there's just, you know, there's a lot of stuff out there that can help. I think, you know, men, men do find unreliable erections a big signifier for them of what it means to be masculine. And so when that goes, a whole sense of identity, I think, goes with it, or when it's not so reliable. And so it becomes like, you know, the equivalent of there's too much fat around my tummy, right?

Oh yeah, dry.

Yeah.

So I have permission without using any names to talk about a client because it is amazing. Yeah. I've had men who've used pumps and shots and all the pills, but this one, there's nothing. There's— he's tried everything. There's nothing that makes him hard.

Yeah.

And I will tell you because They're— we're still friends even though they're not clients anymore because they've been together for 2 and a half years. Both of them are very satisfied and very happy. So it's not a dead end. It really isn't, as long as both people have an okayness about it. That's what you need. You need both people to be okay. He can't get erect. And I've had 2 women clients who, because of surgeries Yeah, they can't have intercourse. It is not an option. They've— we've gone down all the roads. Very happy, satisfied, her and her, then their partners. So to know, explore first, and you on your own, because that's always a first place to start. Then talk to medical people. And to know, if you've exhausted all of those, I have people that are so happy without intercourse. I mean, they're like on cloud nine. They couldn't be more sexually— not just a happy relationship— sexually satisfied. And that's really important to know, that there's not— there can be life after you can't have intercourse, you're not able to have intercourse. I mean, really, it's okay. It's really okay. I think we need to say that out loud.

Yeah, completely. And penetrative sex is just one thing in the big buffet of sexual pleasure. Yes, you don't— we don't— long Lots of women, you know, can exist perfectly happily without penetrative sex. And I think that men feel that that's their only source of pleasure, but I think that's partly because of their own ignorance around the functions of the female anatomy. And, you know, when you'd explain to them where things are and how they work, you realize that penetration doesn't always lead to an orgasm, or in fact it very rarely does. Without some assistance from objects, other types of toys and things. Yeah, you know, but, but yeah, I mean, it's, it's— look, I think part of the thing is, you know, is that as we age, we have to acknowledge that our bodies change. And I suspect that's one— it must be one of the hardest things if you have been married for a very long time and you've lost your partner and you've grown together into this way where you've both seen your bodies changing, you've both evolved in your, in your life over a long period of time, and then suddenly that goes and you have to reframe your identity without this other person in the, in the picture. And I suspect that's really, really hard.

It is. I mean, first you're grieving for this person that you thought you would be with forever, and then especially for women, it's very difficult to not get negative concerns about our body and to feel okay about being naked with a new person. It's— it can be such a huge hurdle, and it is a lot of the conversations I have with women. And I have more tools besides the list while you brush your teeth to help you get past that, because we're still alive, lucky us. Yeah, and our spouses aren't. And how nice if you still want to have sex, that you can have it comfortably and joyfully and Openly. So my t-shirt person, it was so funny. The other thing she said was, you know what turned out? We both had the same knee problem. So we both figured out the position that worked for both of our knees. So that's one of the really great— one of the great benefits about dating somebody who's kind of your age, because you're like, oh, I can't move that way. Well, I can't move that way either, but we could do this together. Is that the best? I laughed so hard when she told me that.

Oh, that's just brilliant.

And so to laugh Yeah, laughing is the best.

Yeah.

Oh yeah, I stuck my elbow in your nose, or oh, I laid on your— because nothing looks like the movies. And you, I'm sure you farted in front of your late spouse. I mean, everybody does. You've already worried about who's going to be the first person when you're dating. So know that you're going to have this fun laughter thing again, and that you both are going to be understanding of Yeah, I can't. I used to be able to do that, but I can't anymore. And to know that there's lots of apparatus, I mean, oh my gosh, I've had people buy interesting swings and all sorts to help them, you know, maintain being up in the air because they can't do that with their— I'm like, oh, have at it. So yeah, there's so much fun stuff out there if you're open to it and nobody takes it personally and nobody gets shy or offended. They're like, let's play. How much pleasure can we bring to each other? Isn't that the point of getting with somebody, is how much fun can we have, how much joy, how good we can have our bodies feel? You know, even if you're just out doing something, but certainly in the sexual realm. I mean, who wants to pass up an orgasm? And there's so many ways to have one.

Exactly. Also, you know, the funny thing about, about being older and laughing and having sex is that when you You know, one of the things that I've, I've discovered is that it's much easier when you're in a new relationship to approach it with that sense of fun because there's so little at stake, right? It's like, if this person doesn't like this, if they don't want to do this, if they would rather go fishing or hunting instead of spending time with me, like, just having fun, then they're not for me, and then I can move on, right? So, so it's much easier when you're not— for me, when you're not in a long-term relationship to start as you mean to go on with somebody and to say, we can have these conversations early in our relationship to talk about all these things. Like, I can't do that because my knee hurts. I can't do that because I can't carry you. I mean, I'm with somebody at the moment. He just gets exhausted, right? And he's just like, I'm overheating. I have to stop. I have to stop. And I'm like, stop. Just like, stop. There's no rush. I mean, you know, like 2 hours later, I'm like, we're still here, you know, it's been 2 hours. And he's like, I'm totally exhausted. So cute that we just— I just laugh because I just think we're, you know, we're not ancient, but there is this thing where we just think this is taking a lot of energy.

A lot of energy.

And now I need to have a little rest now. I'm really tired.

Breaks are good. And just holding naked, it's one of the hardest things that people don't understand about being widowed. Because when you were with somebody a lot of the time, you know, you just touched each other as you walked by. You could put out your foot in the night when you woke up and came back from the bathroom. And that— it's called skin hunger. It's what we, we really feel it in the widowed world. And So just laying with somebody skin to skin.

Yeah.

You know, whether or not you are having sex that time or you're having a break or, oh my God, it is healing and filling up in ways that I am a real touchy person. And I was really appreciative of when he was here. And it's been interesting to go without and then be with somebody and go without and be with somebody. I notice it even more.

Yeah, and we don't talk enough about the benefits of physical touch just generally. I mean, we get into loads of stuff about sex and intimacy, but actually it all starts with a physical connection of some kind, whether it's a hug, a kiss, you know, a hand lingering, just whatever it happens to be. I think it's so, so, so important, and there's not enough emphasis on it, especially when we, you know, when we do go without having a partner or we are widowed. I mean, you know, it is one of the reasons why I do like sex and intimacy is because I don't live with somebody, and you miss having that physical touch, right? It's just, it's human to want that kind of connection with somebody. So I think it's the— I can appreciate that kind of skin hunger that you're talking about because I know I felt it. And I sometimes wonder with single people, like like, how do they get by without that? Like, do they— I, when I was living in Spain, there was a woman I met and she was like, do you like hugs? And I was like, hugs? And she's like, yeah, like, can I hug you? And I went, do you want to hug me? And she's like, would you like a hug? I haven't really thought about it. I was like, yeah, I would quite like a hug. She's like, I'd like to hug you. No, not in a sexual way. It was just like, She just knew that hugs were just good for us, right? Hugs makes us feel better. So even if we're not like dating, go out and find your hugs. I always think like hugs are a good start, a good place to start with just getting connected with other human beings and feeling just that warmth that you get from touching someone else's skin.

So it's, it is. They say that babies, even if they're, you know, fed and changed and talked to, but if they're not tugged, touched, they have failure to thrive. They will not develop properly just because they're not being touched and held. So I just think we've gotten taller, but we have the same needs for sure. And so certainly for widowed people, figuring out joining a widow group, you know, there's, there's a few places that have regional meetups for them to We all hug each other a lot. We have a dinner a couple times a month and we spend a lot of time going around and hugging everybody because, you know, you might have grandchildren or you might have, you know, adult kids, but who wants to turn down a hug? There can't be too many. So it's a— I think that's cute. This lady's just walking around going, would you like a hug?

How sweet. She's so sweet too. Anyway, we've come to the end of the program, believe it or not. Oh, it goes so quick, doesn't it?

I know. When we're talking about sex.

I know. Well, anytime you're talking about sex, time just flies.

It's true.

One of the benefits of doing sex advice for seniors. It's been so lovely to have you on the show. And like usual, we will give people your website address and any of your social media handles that you'd like me to share with everyone else and where to get in touch with you. And it's been a really, really fascinating discussion. I've really enjoyed talking to you, Christine.

And I'd like to add one thing. That if they go to my website, I do offer a free conversation with me. If you just—

Oh, brilliant.

What's holding you back from love? If you answer 10 brief questions and then you click on the link to my calendar and you get to schedule a free talk with me. And if you have any of these concerns, if these are bothering you or you don't know where to start as a widow person, I'd be so happy to have a conversation. Widow people are my heart now.

Oh, brilliant. Thank you so much.

My pleasure. Thanks so much.