Episode 86: Let's Get Kinky

This week's episode has been sponsored by Oh My Bod, shifting the evolution of pleasure. Hi, I'm Suzanne Noble, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors, and I'm here today with Ralph Greco, who is a a writer. He is a teacher, and he specifically works mainly in the adult space, and he's the co-host of a popular podcast that I love the name of called Licking Non-Vanilla. And unsurprisingly, we are going to talk about all things kinky and old. Kinky and old. Welcome, Ralph. So what does kinky actually even mean?

What's it mean? Wow, that's a loaded question, right? I mean, everybody has a different definition of that. Same with when you say non-vanilla sex, which would be anything that's a little beyond the norm. But then what is norm, you know?

Who knows?

I don't know. It's hard for me to say. Maybe it's just lifting our fantasies to another level, a level beyond just normal. Again, I hate to use the word normal. What conventional canoodling, let's say, beyond just everyday, you know, humping.

Everyday Beyond Everyday Humping. I think that should be a name of another podcast.

Yeah, Beyond Everyday Humping. I actually, I love that country band. That's one of my favorite country bands of all time, Beyond Everyday Humping. Ladies and gentlemen, it's Beyond Everyday Humping.

Anyway. Yeah. And I guess what that means for me is that, you know, beyond kind of the missionary position, beyond like doggy style.

Exactly.

Popular positions that most people engage in, right? Like spooning, missionary, doggy style, on top, she's on top, he's on top, la la la la la. Would, would, would involving toys be considered kinky or not?

I guess, I don't know. I mean, I, a lot of people that I've either— that I know intimately in my life or just know in general, use toys. I don't, I don't know. I mean, I think also another thing, maybe kinky, kinkiness would be arousal without copulation, arousal even without orgasm.

Oh, that's a good one. That's a good one. And as we become older people, arousal with no orgasm is definitely something that I'm very familiar with. I think it took me about 55 minutes to come on my own this morning. I almost fell asleep again.

And yeah, well, you know, it's the same for men. I mean, and it's a thing that, that I think older men need to take into consideration, as do their partners, that it's going to take some time where it didn't before. And sometimes within the play of being kinky and BDSM games and all that kind of stuff, you can have a lot of fun, a lot of sensuous fun and a lot of tactile adventures. Without worrying so much about, gotta get direction, gotta get everybody wet, you know. And I think a lot of that, and kinkiness, a lot of that goes on in the mind as well, you know.

Definitely. And how'd you get into this stuff?

Wow. You know, I guess from my earliest awareness, I've always been interested in specific kind of things that, you know, when you're younger, you're thinking, man, am I the only thing, the only person thinking this stuff? And then you slowly— and it's, you know, back in the day when I grew up, there wasn't, there wasn't internet, so I couldn't just go on the internet and find people that were like, oh yeah, I'm into the same time. So, and I'm not a lifestyle, or really, I just have some interests. And, and slowly into my, into my late teens, into my 20s, when I started dating, I found some like-minded ladies that were interested. I'm a hetero male, and some that weren't, and just kind of made my way, you know.

Yeah. Were you back in the days of where you had to send off photos into PO box numbers? Are we going back? Are we going back that far out?

Oh, we're going back to what I went— when I went to school, you couldn't go at night because electricity wasn't invented. So yeah, we're going way back here. And to find that material was very difficult. I remember like, what they would call underground newspapers and magazines. And, you know, maybe you get a hint of it in a Penthouse, not a Playboy. But basically, you know, if you have like a little, a little interest or a penchant for something that was a little unusual, it wasn't the easiest thing to find for sure.

No, and I think, you know, when I speak to people that were in any of the kinky lifestyles, back in the day, and we're talking like '80s, '90s, right? Or the— before the internet, like pre-internet, like for all of the people who, who remember that time of the world. Um, when they talked to me about finding like-minded people back then, honestly, it was, it was such a, a long, involved process that they always tell me that by the time they'd sent the photos that had to be processed at the special shop because nobody would process photos at your normal drugstore, right?

Or your photo mat, right? Yeah. No.

So you had to send the negatives off to be processed and then that would take weeks and then they would come back and then you had to post it to a P.O. box and then somebody at the other end had to look at the picture and go, yeah, all right, that's kind of cool. And then they had to send their picture and do the same shit again.

And then that—

this could go on, this could take months, right? I mean, yeah, every guy I've ever spoken to has said that by the time a meet actually took place, they'd almost like orgasm.

Well, it's funny you say that. I mean, you think about the process itself is arousing, the anticipation is arousing. And I think back, back when I was, when I was doing most of my heavy core dating was probably early '80s. Late '70s, early '80s. And what was fun about back then, I say this all the time, was we had the ability to sniff each other out easier. Or, you know, you, the interaction of that kind of play where you didn't, you didn't just flip on a phone and scroll, you had to go and actually sniff out another person. That gave you a lot of, a lot of just experience in just in that in general. And I talked to men and women of my age, and we all seem to have gotten through that time And we had a great time. We had a really good time. Whether you were kinky or not, it doesn't matter. But like what you're saying, that long process of getting to know somebody and all that anticipation was certainly part of the fun of it, for sure.

Yeah, absolutely. So now here we are. Oh yeah. In our 60s. On the flip side of all that, which I don't know what it's like for you, but for me, it's that whole experience of being a candy store is well over. And I'm like, Why are there so many time wasters? Why are so many people pretending to be something that they're not? Why does it take so much time to filter through all of this stuff?

Maybe only because there's more options now. Maybe it's the only thing I can think of, that there's more options. But, you know, and some people, unfortunately, even when you get into your 60s, some people do, do tend to enjoy the drama of things more than anything else. So there's, there's that too. And I think social media engenders a kind of almost a narcissism in that this is the— I could bring everything to me à la carte. So it's me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. And maybe I don't reach out as quickly as I should or don't make— I don't make the connect relationships. I don't know. I really don't know. I know that I'm not that way. You obviously are not that way yourself. In all aspects of my existence, I don't like any kind of drama unless I'm going to see a stage show. I don't want drama in my life, you know. And I don't want it with friends or anybody, you know. So I would— I tend to avoid that if I can, but it's not always possible. Yeah.

And I think that's the— so, so that's the interesting thing, I think, right, about becoming a— like, you and I have obviously been around this, the block a few times and, and gone back to the early days. But for a lot of people in their 60s, they might be exploring this stuff for the first time. True. So, so they've maybe had a fantasy that they've been clinging on to for years. Maybe their partner said, I don't really want to have a threesome, actually. I don't really want to do that. I don't really want BDSM. I don't want that. I'm just really happy in my little vanilla world. And maybe that relationship hasn't worked out for whatever reason. And now there's this big bad space of thinking, right, I can do this now. I can do this. What's, you know, what's the common stuff that you see that you come across with, with older people wanting to engage with kink at this stage of life if they've never done it before?

Well, first and foremost, I think, and you just tickled this a little bit when you were saying this, but is the expectation of what it's going to be as opposed to what it does end up being. And there's no way of ever knowing. And you can't get thrown by that. If you, if you, if you try something with somebody like, oh, I've had this fantasy for years, let's try this. And you get into it and it doesn't work out exactly the way you think it's gonna That's fine. Take your time, communicate, and see ways around. Don't jettison the whole thing completely out of hand because it didn't work out. And I think that would be the first thing, the concept of in your mind of what it might be, especially if it's something like you said, you built up over a long time in your head, and all the dead mechanizations in the circus, the circus nets and all that stuff. And you get there and you're like, oh, this isn't anywhere near— because it never is going to be what it is in your head anyway. So that's the first thing. And then secondly, Second, well, first, first, of course, is consent. You don't get, get there without consent, right? And then secondly, I would— and then maybe the third, the other point I just said, and maybe third, you just— and I think this is all built into it— communication and realizing that. And then also, sometimes you get into something, it doesn't exactly go where you want to go, but it goes somewhere else. And you're like, oh, I didn't expect that. And be open to that too. You're like, oh, all of a sudden, you know, I wasn't exactly wanting to call her mommy, but now I am, and she's liking that. Where, where, you know, I—

and I—

what— and, and you know how about when that happens too? And with this, we used to say this a lot of time with men in their first, their first experiences with anal. Men of my generation, their first experience of anal was always like earth-shattering because it meant something else, and it didn't mean anything other than you like, you like that feeling, you know. But anyway, so don't, don't If this thing all suddenly becomes, oh, I'm calling her mommy, oh, I want infantilism, and that's it, I haven't come to terms with my mother, doesn't mean any of that shit. Doesn't mean any of that. Just enjoy what it is. Don't worry about what you think it is and why you're doing it. All that stuff gets in the way. So I would say those are the 3 points, if that makes any sense. And it probably doesn't.

Yeah. And I think that's the funny thing about roleplaying. I'm not going to tell you my own personal story about that because it's actually a little bit too— yeah, I want to keep it—

oh, come on. Oh, come on. We're all friends here. You and I go way back.

So I had this partner once. And for some reason, I just came out with Daddy. Like, you know, in that moment, he was much, much younger than me, like, to the point where people sometimes thought he was my son when we were going out, right?

Oh, that's so hot. That's so hot.

So fantastic. It was really hot. I can't— I've never done it with anybody since. I'm kind of a little bit like, there's a part of me that thinks, oh, but that was so hot. Maybe I could just like, maybe that word could just like slip out again. But then I think—

Yeah, good luck trying that. Forcing that.

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, look, the situation was with that particular person, and I think this is true of like so many of these fantasies that um, that sometimes seem completely inappropriate. Like you said, you know, when you call somebody your mom or your dad or whatever, it doesn't, doesn't have to mean anything other than, you know, it just means shit, right?

It just means what you're doing at the moment. Why? That's the thing with this stuff, you have to imbue it with all this, like, this other, other crazy shit than you're— yeah, anyway, go ahead.

Yeah, so I, you know, so at that time I was like, I didn't imbue it with anything. I just thought it was really hot and it worked, and he went along with it, which is good because he didn't look me like, are you insane?

Right, right, right, right. Like, you know how old I am?

Like, you're my mom. Like, let's get this straight, right?

Right. We're gonna do this, let's go there at least. Yeah, right. That's funny. That's very funny.

But the main thing was, and the main thing about all of this stuff is, and it relates back to consent but also relates to trust, right? Like, for me, the kink, like, I'll go to, I'll go to real extremes if I really trust someone. Like, if I really, really trust someone. And that means that some of the, you know, some of the little tips that, that we always say in the kinkster world about this, the stoplight system, you know, like red, orange, amber, green, like, right, it's like degrees of severity, you know, all that stuff about if it, if it's impact play, i.e., like spanking, flogging, whipping, all that kind of stuff, and you and your You know, I've enjoyed that from time to time, but I've learned that the people that I enjoy it with the most are people who are highly skilled because I don't— I'm not really a pain person. So, so for me, it's like, take me up with the endorphins really, really slow. So by the time you get to the, the intensity, it's almost like I'm not— I don't feel, you know, it's not— it's not a huge shock to me. So But I also know that those people, if it did become too much, I just go red, red. And they stop, right? They wouldn't, they wouldn't go, oh, red actually means green. No, fucker.

Right, right. No, no, fucker. Red is red. You see this? You see the color I'm wearing and what color you're wearing? That's the, that's what I mean. Yeah.

You know, so that's the other thing is like, it's like, make sure if you're going to mess around with this stuff, you have a high, there's a high degree of trust between the two.

Oh God, I mean, 100% because on a physical level, yeah, if you're impact player, being tied up, I mean, a million things, right? But then on an emotional level too, you know, like you could say something or intimate something and the other person gets, whoa, whoa, where are we going here, you know? But like, you know, there's a lot of, you know, um, in humiliation play too. And I don't like to take degradation because I don't really— I'm not on a truck of that. But humiliation play, you have to trust somebody enough to know they're playing. You know, when they're, they're measuring your whatever, and they're saying you're too small, and all the stuff that you've heard, but, or calling you a slut, or what I mean, however you want to go. Yeah, that's fine. If you trust somebody within the parameters, you know, they're playing with you, you're having a good time, and everything's fine. You know, they don't really, they're not really truly assessing you in the way you think they are. So again, this goes back to, yeah, trust, consent, not letting it get away from you in the sense that if I did something and it really didn't turn out to be so great, I never want to do it again. There's another thing too that we didn't brush on, and you, you did— I'm just thinking of too, and I'm sure you're— you just— you actually said this— there are some people that you, you're fine doing certain things, doing certain things with. Other people you don't, you don't. And sometimes I don't even know why that is. Um, And that happens too. You may have a fantasy that you really— you're thinking of, and you, you come across a new lover or post-divorce or whatever, and you're charged up with the fantasy, but this person, just for whatever reason, you can't get it up for them to do it to you or do it with. And that gets you— you know, I really like this person. In fact, I love this person. I'm really sexually attracted to this person, but I don't have a kink thing for this. Doesn't mean anything. It just means you don't. And I, I can't tell you a million people that I've been woefully sexually attracted to, nothing happened kinky. And other people, I'm like, nah. And all of a sudden, it's like it fires all pistons. I don't know. I— but this is things you learn as you get older, that this is, this is the way life is, you know.

Yeah. And I think one of the aspects of, of, of being an older person and being, you know, single or single-ish, however you want to describe yourself, is that we have the opportunity, if you know, if we want to and if we're emotionally capable of it, of having partners that fulfill different needs for us, right? You can have— I had a conversation with a woman who does a podcast called Open Nesters, and her partner's really into BDSM and she's not. She likes walking naked in nature and he doesn't. So she's like, okay, cool, you go off with Sandy and you go and get into your roleplay stuff, kinky roleplay, BDSM stuff, and I'm gonna go off with Eric and we're gonna go walking naked in the woods, right?

Right.

And he's like, off, off you go then. And she's like, how was it with Sandy? And he's like, yeah, loads of fun, right? And they've been married 27 years and stuff. So, so there's— so this stuff is also— I mean, the other thing I would say is that if you can develop your communication skills between yourself and your partner, whether they're new long, long-term, whatever, you can renegotiate this shit. You can. I mean, people say, oh, but I can't. Like, what if they— I get rejected? What if they hate me and want to divorce me? Well, I mean, there's always that risk, but I think it is possible to renegotiate this stuff.

Well, I mean, I would think— and what we all learn is as we get older is that Uh, things— your perspective changes all the time, and which constantly changing. I mean, I say this all the time, people think I'm being facetious, but I really don't know shit. The older I get, the less I know. And people say, well, you know, that's just bullshit, you, you know. But I'm like, no, has nothing to do with experience, has the fact that I, I say all the time, like, the snow globe is shaking all the time. I have no idea. I kind of know what I want, I know what's going on around me, but that even that throws— is thrown off by new experiences, new people you meet. So yes, why couldn't you in that, in that, that thought, keeping that thought in your head, why couldn't you renegotiate? And every level on everything, you know, I'm not saying that life has to be that nebulous. But I think that we need to be that open to the possibilities that because as you know, as we know, we all know, the older you get, the more stuck in your ways you can certainly get.

Yeah.

And that's the thing about kink. Play maybe, maybe allows you to be not as stuck in your ways, maybe. And then again, there's other people like, I'm only doing this, I'm only getting spanked. That's all I'm ever going to do. That's all I'm ever going to— whatever, whatever you want to do.

I think that's very true. I think one of the greatest things about when you look at a life, all the alternative lifestyles out there, and I sort of classify most of them as some form of kink. You know, I got you, swinging or BDSM or roleplay, whatever.

Yeah, I got you.

It's all, it's all kind of comes under the kink umbrella for me. I think that once you, once you open that Pandora's box and you see what's out there, the best, the couples that I know that have been together the longest, that seem the happiest to me, are the ones where there's no limitations on this stuff. It's where they're willing to go like, hey, let's go to this party this weekend and check out what's happening. Let's see what's going on. And like you say, you go there like, oh God, really? That was kind of— right, right. I don't think I'm going to do that again. Or, oh, maybe we need to try a different party, or maybe we need to try something different. But the buffet is wide open, and, and we know that our bodies are not functioning in the same way. So as you said, some of the benefits for me, it's like, you know, impact play is like, I'm not thinking about having an orgasm. I'm just enjoying the different sensations. I'm just thinking, oh, this is kind of cool. This is interesting. You know, I'm kind of enjoying the tension, the, the anticipation, the, you know, the power dynamic, whatever that can be. I'm just kind of going, oh, but do I want that flavor of ice cream every day of the week? Right. That's a good point.

That's a very good point. No, I don't. No, no, I, I, I don't want— and yeah, I don't want— I, I used to have a roommate, it was a great guy, I love this guy, and he would say to me, yeah, but like, say you like Coca-Cola, you really love Coca-Cola, and you just want to drink Coca-Cola all the time. It's, what's, what's so bad about having Coca-Cola all the time? I'm like, well, I, I see your point, and you could be very comfortable drinking Coca-Cola, but I'm somebody who— and I love Coca-Cola, but after a while I don't want to just drink Coca-Cola. But then again, also The point should be made, and you've already made this point, but I think it should be made that, and if you're not someone inclined to kink, that's fine too.

Yeah, of course.

Yeah, right. Or if you're someone who's been inclined to kink for 20 years, all of a sudden you're like, I'm done with kink.

Yeah, that's fine.

You know, that's— or I've never done any of this stuff and I wake up at 62 years old going, you know what, I want a woman to peg me. That's fine too. I just, I just, I just don't. I mean, I'm the same way. I'm the same way. My sensibilities are the same way with any opinion of anything, whether it be religion or politics, which are— it's interesting, we say these things all the time. You and I are talking sexual right now. But when we grew up, what were the things you didn't talk about? Sex, religion, politics, and mixed company, right? And nowadays, everybody talks about everything because, you know, we can. But I have this opinion that I don't really care what your opinion is. Not that I don't care about your opinion. I care. But at the end of the day, I'm really not going to change my opinion. Go forth, you know, like, you know, you know, whatever you want to do, go with God, but whatever you want to believe in. But my point is that, so if you want to be kinky, be kinky. You don't want to be kinky, don't be kinky.

It's— I mean, I met somebody when I was living out in Spain. And he said to me, actually, I just have like two rules, which is just like, be kind to people. Don't, don't abuse old ladies. Don't fiddle around with kids, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

Don't just be generally decent human, right? Like, but anything else you want to do, if you want to eat your own cum or whatever, I don't care.

I'm the same way. I'm with you with the rules. Like, Don't fuck with kids, man. Um, yeah, don't fuck— and with animals, because animals can't consent either. What the fuck is that about, right? And then, and then like, yeah, like generally be nice. Like don't be a dick, you know? We say it all the time, just don't be a dick. I mean, it's like, it's not really that difficult not to be a dick, because it's that old adage, like if you don't have something nice to say, then don't say it. Just walk away, you know? Like, but you're right. But as far as like what you want to do with, with all that, your, your personage, I or you want to put on your personage, you want to take out of your personage, or put— I don't care. It's not that I don't care about you. I care about you as a human being. But if you're, if you're, if you're fine with what you're doing, you're adding— like you said, you have consenting partners that you trust, and you're, you know, you're hygienic and you're safe and all stuff, just have at it.

Just go for it, you know. I mean, the other struggle that I hear a lot is Well, there's a few. Like, a guy wrote to me the other day and he said, you know, I have prostate cancer. And, you know, my— and obviously he was going to have erectile dysfunction, right? Because that's just what happens.

Comes with it.

And they get— and they get really stuck in their head about what does that mean for my sex life? Because, of course, their entire sex life has been all about penetration.

Exactly.

Oh, it's, it's the time I think that people should be looking at kink as that's what, that's what you should be looking at, right? You should be looking at the things that you can do that don't necessarily always have to involve your dick, or where you can pleasure your partner in all sorts of other ways that don't— I think, you know, the medical profession doesn't really address kink.

Sadly, but no, and no, and you're right. And, and the thing about a hard dick thing always becomes that that's the measure of it. It doesn't have to be, right?

No, and I think what, you know, one of the benefits for me of kink is that when you do have, you know, I've met people within the kink community that are disabled, I've met people in the kink community that have, you know, can't get their dick hard. I've met all sorts of people who have a really joyful approach to pleasure in all its functions, in all its ways, because they've got a much more expansive view and they haven't let their limitations, their physical limitations, stop them from experiencing pleasure. And I don't know how it is in the States, but I know that for me, the kink community has always been incredibly inclusive. When it comes to disability generally.

I just, I would say, I would say that's true from what I've seen. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, they're, they're, I've always said this, I mean, and it's, it sounds cliché in a way, but some of the easiest, nicest, most amiable folks I've ever met has been, you know, somebody with a pony mask out at a kink convention. You know, I mean, they're usually the kind of people that are pretty approachable. They love talking about what they're doing. They love learning something new. And they're just nice, open people. They're just doing their thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, I hate to be that— I hate to be that because it sounds like it just sounds like it sounds like a false equivalency. Like, oh, kink people are the best people in the world. You know, like, like, I feel like it's like Barbra Streisand, you know, you know, people love people. But what it comes down to though, really, I do find that and I think because maybe we're, we're slow, you know, I don't know, I don't know why. There's, there's a million reasons for it, of course, but I, I totally agree with it. There's other, there's other ways around things, of course. And if you think about not taking your dick out of the equation, but at least have it be part of everything else, everything else, right? Yeah, because, you know, as men, younger men, when I was in my 20s, that's all that mattered was this was mattered. But, you know, getting that, getting that hard in some place, right? A place Didn't matter where the place was, my hand, her hand, her breasts, no matter. But you learn over time that like, that's all wonderful. But like, that's not all there is to life, right? I mean, in sex or life in general. So yeah, and you know, as well as I do, kink is a lot in the mind. It's a lot of, a lot of mental.

And, and, and sadly, and again, I don't know if this is a cliché, but the kinkiest people I've known have been people that don't have very mentally taxing jobs. Yeah, it could be.

It could be, you know, what they always say that too. There's always that, you know, the guy who really wants to be dominated, this guy who has a high-endy kind of job where he's— guy or girl— where they're, they're constantly making decisions.

Yeah.

They just want to come into a situation where they, they kind of just lose themselves, you know?

Yeah.

So I don't know. I met, you know, you like you, I've met a lot of people in all different walks of life. That are all into all different things. And, and I, it's interesting to me when I come across a kink I never heard of, or something I didn't think of. I'm like, oh, that's it. You know, I was introduced to Looners, I don't know how many years ago, and I was like, oh, that's interesting, people like, people blowing up balloons.

Oh, the balloon thing.

Yeah, and that's really cool. I knew a girl who was, who would do that for some guys, and, you know, but I was like, that's, I never heard of that, you know. I wouldn't be my thing, but that's cool, man, you know. And I can see like the anticipation of the balloon blowing up, and I can see how that gets to you. I can understand the sense of that. But you know, I— you know, you go through— you go through a Clips for Sale one afternoon, and you're going to see some stuff that will blow your, your mind. Wow, I didn't know people were into that.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, one of the— you know, one of the benefits of living in a big city like New York, LA, London, yeah, But of course, we've got kinky clubs, we've got, yeah, communities. There's lots of people on FetLife, which is kind of the kinky social network, right?

Yes.

There's a few other kind of kinky networks, but that's kind of, I suppose, the main one. So, you know, it is— I appreciate that it is harder if you're living, if you're quite isolated, to find like-minded people. Similarly, I think, you know, there's kind of the the, what I would call almost the vanilla fetishes, right? Which is things like feet.

Like, yeah, yeah.

Like, like how many people I meet that are just really into feet. I don't really get it. But you know, there's thousands of people that just love feet. So if you want to meet somebody who's going to suck your toes, lick your feet, do all that, fairly easy to find. I, I had once answered a crazy ad on Craigslist once. By a guy who wanted— I mean, I just did it because it sounded so ridiculous that I just thought, is this even genuine? He wanted me to turn up in his office, sit down in his meeting room, wear a specific type of skirt with a slip underneath and tan-colored pantyhose. He wanted me to drop coffee on him. Then he wanted me to remove my skirt, put it over the radiator, go back, sit down in my slip. I had to be wearing big granny panties. I mean, this whole thing was, like, laid out for me, like, a big story, right? And I said to him at the end of it, I said, look— and he didn't want to have sex with me afterwards, so it's like, that's really okay. That's quite an extensive thing. I'd have to take time off work.

Yeah, you know, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta find the panties for that.

Yeah, I gotta get some stuff I don't own at the moment. Like, so I said to him, how much— how— like, I'm gonna have to charge you for this because there's a lot of stuff I'm gonna have to purchase that I wouldn't have had to purchase otherwise. And he just went, well, how much were you thinking? I said, well, I don't know. I was thinking about £100, right? For that. It was— the whole thing was going to take like an hour or something, right? And he said, wow, that's quite a lot of money. I was like, it's not really negotiable. I mean, who are you going to find to do this? And for me when kink gets complicated, right? When, when people start devising these super elaborate stories that they want someone to play out. And you're going, what do I have to— like, if I was in a partnership with that guy, like, what would our life look like? Would I have to rock up at his office every week? Like, what would I—

it's, you know, it does get— it gets tricky to facilitate. And And I always think then, then what we were saying before too, like, so you, you go through that whole thing and, and the panties aren't right, and like, this was that— does that set— like, does that— you know what, well, everything worked until you took your skirt off because the panties aren't the ones I wanted. I'm like, or you didn't put the skirt on the thing. I'm like, wow, dude, that's a lot of stuff going on there, you know? Like, and look, we all— and we all have our stuff. I mean, we all have our particulars, and I understand that. Details that get to you that you really want, you know? It's gotta— it's gotta be a— it's gotta be a girl from the '50s. If it's not a girl from the '50s, yeah. I understand all that, but the more complicated it is, and even when you're in a partnership with somebody like you just said, the more you have a— more they have a chance of it running off the rails.

Yeah, yeah, of course.

You remember, remember, I always go back to— remember the scene at the end of Carnal Knowledge when Jack Nicholson comes to see, uh, Rita Moreno, who's playing a prostitute? Yeah. And he sits, and he— so Jack Nicholson's been through all this stuff in the movie trying to, trying to um, wheedle his way through sexual relationships. And at the end of the movie, sits down in a chair and he's laying back, and she, she's obviously starting to hand manipulate him, but she's talking to him very sexy. And then she says one thing and he goes, "That's it!" And he gets up. Obviously you said the wrong thing. And it was interesting, and I always go back to that, like, you know, if you're playing with that many details and that specificity, you can get thrown off the rails pretty easily, you know.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I— yeah, and that's for me, I've, I've, I know that that's the, that's the biggest danger for me with roleplay. And I think that's, you know, for me, there's one overall lesson when it comes to kink, right? Which is, it's very rarely going to be 100% the way you want it, right?

Absolutely.

You've got all this shit that goes on in your head, and you've been wanking off to that for years, and you've you know, you've created this whole elaborate story and you've thought, I— okay, you know what, I can do this now. I'm going to move it out of my head. Now, whether you pay for someone to do that or whether you find someone on a kink site, whatever, the reality is that when, you know, I asked somebody to play doctor and he put his stethoscope in the wrong place, I just was like I just went, yeah, see, you just fucked it all up now.

Right, right. Yeah, like, yeah, because, and, and, and the things that could be the smallest little detail that you go, oh, totally just ruined it. Yeah, you ruined it. Like, oh, wow, dude, you were, we were going along good. But then, but then, you know, you brought out the brown stethoscope and not the black one. I'm like, you know, and it's just so, it was just something you said to make me think of something, but it's true. I mean, those little, those little moments where you go, um, that, that's just— I'm sorry, I, I gotta take, I gotta take a powder on this one because you just— it didn't, it didn't deliver. And that happens because you get, you get stuck in a weird, a weird thing, the way it's got to go or the way it has to go. And, and, uh, yeah, and, and like we said before too, sometimes you get surprised. See, that's another thing too. There's that, their term— we, we hear this term all the time about topping from below. Especially if you're the sub, you want it a certain way, but then you don't, you don't want to be leading the Domme, because the Domme doesn't want that. But then also, I think like in those instances, what's fun in those instances, and I'm sure this has been true for you, is that when you're with somebody, whether they're a friend or a partner or whatever, and they kind of pick up on the stuff that you don't exactly say, and they bring you to there, and you're like, oh, I really did want that. But I just, I never thought about it, or B, I would never dare say it, you know, and now she is putting on the strap-on and I would never have said that to her. But now she is and I'm like, good for you, girl, because that's right. That's really where I want it, you know. So that's, that's the fun thing about not being so rigid in the, in the fantasy.

Yeah. So I think there's, for me, there's a couple of, you know, a few things that we said that are very worth reminding most of our audience who are probably quite not kinky, but you never know, you never know, is One, that sometimes those fantasies are best left in your head. If you, you know, if you're thinking that it's all going to go 100% your way, you're going to be disappointed. I wish it was the case, but it doesn't, you know, but it just doesn't. Two is that, is that things that may seem inappropriate with two consenting adults who love and trust each other don't have to love each other, just trust each other.

Yeah.

Can be super duper fun. And they don't have to send you off to this therapist. They're just, they're just, yes, you can call your younger lover daddy, and it's fine, right?

Doesn't mean shit.

Doesn't mean shit. And the third thing is that it's an, it's a wonderfully inclusive world if you want to dip your toe into it. So age is not a barrier. It's just, it's, it's In fact, there's loads and loads and loads of older people on the scene who, some of whom are very experienced and some of whom are newbies. So if you're thinking you're too old to do any of this stuff that we've talked about, never too old, never too old.

No, and you may find things that you never even thought about and say, oh, that's interesting. And then again, like you said, with trust, it's good to be protected in those instances because if you do traipse across something that unnerves you a bit, although you like it, but it unnerves you a bit. It's good to have a partner with you that, that can— you could talk it out with, you know, that's all.

Yeah. And that's the other thing, very valuable point. Thank you for raising it, is be safe. So don't go and meet somebody you've never met before in a hotel room. You know, I've done stupid shit like that.

But you and me both, you and me both. Like, no, and more and more, you know, and I hate to say it this way, but the fairer sex, You know, you run the risk way back in the day more than I did. I could— but then that's not necessarily true either. A woman could tie me down and it's all over, man.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, I did in my teens tie down a couple of guys and just left.

Right, right. But that's what they wanted.

Exactly. They did. I was— and I was young and I didn't know anything about that then. But less said about that, the better, really. Anyway, and so it's been such a blast to talk to you.

Back at you.

Yeah, so that's Ralph Greco. Licking Non-Vanilla is his podcast. We'll put all the links in the summary as usual. You are a delightful man. And I hear you're in Jersey or something, aren't you?

New Jersey? Yeah, 20— I'm like 20 minutes out of New York City, actually.

Yeah. Oh, so maybe the next time I go to New York City, we can meet up because that'd be—

not— there's no maybe there involved. There's a definite. We're gonna hang out. We're gonna Paint, paint. Well, you know what, now, now New York, the problem is congestion pricing. You go in, it's so expensive just to run around that city.

Oh, I know, my son lives there, it's ridiculous.

It's terrible. Anyway, it was wonderful. I thank you so much. This could not have been better. It was wonderful.

Thank you.