Episode 87: A Humanitarian Approach to Sex Work

Hi, I'm Suzanne Noble, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. And today I'm with Tiffany Zahara, who is CEO of her company, humanitarian entrepreneur, fascinating woman who has done all sorts of things in her life. Including being a stripper, including sex work, and including working with lots of different types of organizations that really are subject to censorship and therefore don't really have the ability to get the word out as much as they would like because of societal pressures, I suspect, that are, that are just making it really difficult to talk about some really sensitive topics. So welcome, Tiffany, and, uh, Welcome to Sex Advice for Seniors.

Oh, thank you so much, Suzanne. I really appreciate that warm introduction and look forward to delving into the fun nitty-gritty stuff.

So yeah, I mean, I'm really curious to know, for a start, what does your average day look like?

Well, um, because I juggle my vanilla life and, as we were saying, offline my strawberry life. I had another sex worker say, when I was commenting, I'm like, oh, I've got a kink client later. She's like, well, you know, I like to use the term strawberry. So, you know, what's the opposite of vanilla? It's strawberry. So it's very interesting because I work with businesses that are facing censorship and stigma. That is something that's constantly a challenge. So I am taking vanilla client calls. As well as, you know, maybe dealing with some strawberry clients in between. So there really isn't an average day. You know, I have my set appointments and then I just do what I can when it comes to paperwork in between. You really just go with the flow. And I've had people say, well, are you ever mixing up calls or anything? It's, it's really just shifting gears very, very quickly. I mean, you may have been in an intense scene and then all of a sudden you need to start talking about strategic planning. For the growth of this operation. And it's just, it's a little bit of whiplash, but you know, it keeps life interesting, keeps life spicy. Yeah.

So I'm, I'm— look, I really want to talk about sex work because I think it's, of all of the topics, it's so heavily stigmatized. And I know that especially for men, older men that may have some health issues, they may have mobility issues. They may have some chronic health conditions, or simply their partner may have died, and they may find themselves suddenly alone and really craving intimacy. And for so many of those people, I think that sex work and going, going to see sex workers is a completely legitimate option. But yet every time I've mentioned it, even to people that have been in those circumstances, the first thing they do is go, but what about the, what about the trafficking? What about this? What about that? As a sex worker yourself, how, what's, how do you deal with, do you see those, this sort of thing out there? And what's your reaction to it?

Well, this is why we need to have decriminalization. We need to have more awareness. We need to have more conversation. Because yes, this is a very real issue that happens. And so we need to have more legislation for decriminalization of sex work and sex worker rights.

But I mean, there is trafficking that goes on, clearly.

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. It's a very real thing all over the world, even in this country, even though people are like, no, no, no, it's only certain areas, certain people. It's everywhere. Yes, it's a very real thing. Yes.

And, and so you're somebody who wants to go and see somebody. How do you approach it? What, what would you suggest to somebody, especially if somebody is really concerned that they want to meet someone who actually wants to do this job like you, as opposed to somebody who may have been forced into doing this work?

I think it depends on what you're specifically looking for, because sex work is an umbrella term. So that includes everything from strippers to full-service workers to, um, prodommes to phone sex operators to cam girls. There is a breadth of what is sex work, to the, um, the porn stars themselves. And so you are still accessing sex workers, even if you're just watching porn, you're still accessing sex work in that way. And so I think once you start to normalize it in that way, I think that it— you're able to maybe wrap your head around it, because I think when you start talking about sex work, you're automatically thinking full-service prostitution, and it's not. And so it depends on what you're trying to access, because, you know, sometimes people think, oh, phone sex operators still exist. Yes, they still exist, and there's a very good reason for that, because a lot of the times, A, you may need anonymity. B, there could be a disability that you're just not comfortable presenting to the world and you want a little bit more privacy. Or there are certain kinks or fetishes or proclivities that you're more inclined to that are a lot more censored and stigmatized, and you want to be able to go into those darker areas. So it really depends on what you're looking for. I know that that's not exactly the answer that you were wanting, but it really depends on who and what you're trying to access. You still accessing a cam girl is still accessing a sex worker.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I totally agree. I mean, it's a really broad term that people tend to think of as being escorts or prostitutes, as you say, but covers a whole range of different kinds of work. Um, specifically, I was thinking about if somebody wants to go and actually have sexual intercourse with another human being, then then that's not— I mean, you're in the States, I'm in the UK, it's not totally legal. And there's legalities in some countries, obviously, like Germany, it's more legal, and other countries it's not legal at all. So, but it still goes on everywhere, as we know. What's the situation where you're based?

So where I am is there's certain areas like Nevada where there are more options when it comes to being able to comfortably access full-service workers. However, you really have concerns. I mean, there are things like Backpages where you're, you know, that's where a lot of people go, but they're still running the risk of trafficking. And this is where those of us that are sex worker rights activists are really pushing towards criminalization, decriminalization, so that we are not facing the same issues. Both sides, the johns as well as the sex workers. So it's not really a straightforward answer because of the legal issue that's surrounding the topic right now.

Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I guess in the States, you know, we hear about those, you know, those ranches out in Nevada where people can go and they've been glamorized in movies. And, and we've seen all of that. And if somebody wants to, as you said, if somebody has a health or mobility issue and wants to see someone, then I guess it— then they're what, resorting to just typing escorts on the internet?

Well, there's also sexual surrogates, and that's another— when there is more of like a mobility concern or along those lines, um, There's a fine line with that. There's controversy, of course, with this entire umbrella that we're in. There's controversy, but sexual surrogates is another option that may not necessarily be something that's considered when there are more of those physical disabilities.

Right. And typically, if somebody wants to go to see someone, I mean, I suppose this is a question, how long is a piece of string? But how much would you expect to pay someone for full physical contact?

It really depends on the worker. I know these are not straightforward answers. I am so sorry, but it really depends on the worker. And if you're just looking for something that's $20, then you also, you know, you kind of get what you pay for. And I say that in terms of, are they taking care of their own health? Are they taking care of yours? Because again, as sex workers, we do this all day. Now, again, I, I don't do full service, but that still doesn't mean that there's still a— not a mental toll. And so we need to be able to protect both ourselves and you as the client physically and mentally as well. Um, so you need to be asking the right questions of the worker. Make sure that they're always using condoms because you're, you're putting yourself at risk. Um, the more you are paying, you may not necessarily want to pay a higher amount, but you're just raising your standards. Um, so I mean, it could be 15 minutes, but this is on my menu. But you know, this person, if you go to this other person, they may be like, okay, minimum a half hour, but I don't do all the things that that person does over there. And so it really just depends, but you need to still remember. It's kind of hard when you're getting caught up in the moment, but at the same time, uh, you need to still remember about your own physical and mental safety as well.

Yeah, I mean, in the UK we have a site called Adult Work, which is, um, I don't know if it extends to the US, but it's got, it, it's got, as you said, people doing phone sex, which is still a huge thing. I mean, It's massive. And in fact, somebody I know does it on a part-time basis for a bit of fun and extra cash. Money's really good. She just loves talking on the phone to people. And it's still, you know, I thought it had all gone in the days of like premium rate numbers, but it's still a really popular choice for a lot of people, like you said, who probably have some darker thoughts that they don't want to do in real life because of all sorts of things, like legally can't, or legally can't, exactly. And just want to play out some, some fantasies in that way. All the way to clearly lots of housewives and lots of women who are at home who are looking for a way to make some extra money. And I think what I'm seeing at the moment with this cost of living crisis is that It's just the whole industry is just blown up in terms of just in, in all aspects of it because it is, um, it's a fairly straightforward way of making money and people have needs that need to be met and they want them to be met and other people have financial requirements and you put the two together and, you know, so for me it's like if, if everybody's consensual around this then personally, I don't really have a problem with it. I don't really see that there is a problem. But I do think, you know, for me, what I, what I find more difficult is the, is the aspect of how do you differentiate between somebody who's doing this job because they really want to and somebody who's doing this job because they have to, or they're being forced into it? Like, what are the signs? Because I frankly wouldn't have a clue.

Well, so I just want to go back first and then I will address on this. When you talked about how this has kind of blown up in terms of popularity and all of these things, it's really— we need to look at what this is looking like as a society. We are more isolated than ever. And unfortunately, and this is going to be very, very controversial, but I mean, this work, we're keeping it real here. I talk to a lot of people who are married, who have been in very, very long-term relationships, and it's the, you know, I'm seeing with them because they're so isolated in their marriage, they're so isolated in their partner dynamic, or they're just so isolated in their life, they can't be their full selves. You know, I get to see a side of humanity that 99% of the world doesn't see. You don't tell anybody about this stuff. You haven't told your partner of 50 years about the things that you're going to. And so, yes, there is a huge difference between those that are actively choosing this life like I am with those that have not had that choice. And I know this goes back to the decriminalization. I know this isn't exactly what you're liking to hear, but the signs and all of those things. This is why we need to push more and more and more and recognize that this is an industry that needs to exist. Is that it's the oldest profession. It is something that is going to continue to exist, and we need to be recognized as humans, and we need to look at that as well and not necessarily just do the individual conversations or those individual things. We need to start having these mass conversations on the importance of overturning what this work has always looked like, and how we need to change for the better for all of us. Because the reality is that anybody that you know and love is— could be a sex worker. You may just not know it yet. I heard once a woman say that you may have sex workers in your life, and you probably do, if you haven't had someone tell you, they just may not identify you as somebody who's safe enough to express that. But especially when we've got cam girls, and we've got these sites that are selling feet pictures and selling all of these other pictures, the likelihood that you know and love someone who is a sex worker, because this is still sex work. Yeah, you are still exchanging sex for money. This is why we need to reform the legislation. So that's really what it comes, it comes down to is overhauling what this industry looks like for not just necessarily one singular experience, but all of us overall.

Yeah, complete. I mean, I totally agree with you. I mean, I think it's very interesting what you say as well about not just the fact that we probably all know someone, and I know loads of people that work in the industry in all sorts of ways, from selling foot pictures to being on the phone to whatever, um, but also the fact of the matter is that in some long-term relationships, and I suspect in lots of long-term relationships. I know I was in a long-term relationship where I didn't discuss anything of any consequence that was intimate, um, until the very end of my marriage, by which point it was way too late to actually do anything about it. But there are— for me, the one of the, one of the massive benefits of going to see someone or speaking to somebody on the phone is that if you love your partner and if you have stuff that goes on in your brain that you just feel that your partner is not going to be on board with, then going and seeing somebody where you can just deal with that, in which maybe just talking to them on the phone and expressing your thoughts, maybe actually doing something kinky, whatever it happens to be, is a really— is one way of protecting, you know, those who want to remain in their marriage because it provides them with a degree of companionship, or it gives them some other, you know, sense of being loved that they want, right? And not everybody has to break up their long-term relationship because they've got a kink that's not being met, or something that's going on in their mind that they can't get out. And I think that's, for me, is, is one of the benefits of the whole industry, is it allows people to just express themselves in ways that perhaps they don't feel comfortable doing within, within the relationship that they happen to be in. And I think it doesn't necessarily mean that that relationship has to end just because they want to see somebody. It's just like, just these people don't want to have a long-term relationship with you. It's like, you know, I, I say to people, like, if you just want— if, if you think that, that being in a long-term relationship is brain damage and you don't want that because it you know, or it's not available to you or whatever it happens to be, just go and speak to somebody, see someone, do whatever you have to do to get your needs met. Like, it's just nothing wrong with it.

Yeah, it's to help you not feel so alone. And I see a lot of military and law enforcement and especially the persona that they have to play in their vanilla life, and that attracts a certain type of partner. But in reality, they still have this other side where they want to be sissyfied. They want that feminization. And there's concern about having that conversation with their partner because of the dynamic that they've actually played. But there's this need because when you're putting the pendulum so far to one side for so long, it needs to swing back so that you can be a whole person. It doesn't mean any types of things, any labels that are floating around in your head of, I don't want them to know because they're going to think I'm this or that. And that's not the reality. It's just so that you can be a whole person. And I love how you talked about the protection of the relationship dynamic that you may be currently in. And it doesn't have to mean all of those things because I think that that also helps in a lot of ways. One person doesn't have to fulfill all of your needs. That's a lot of pressure on that one person. Yeah, yeah.

And look, and I think, you know, going back to the whole decriminalization aspect of this, if it was decriminalized, then surely it would make it feel like a lot, uh, like a legitimate decision that people take within a relationship, or just generally, because they wouldn't feel like they were doing something that was illegal. They were doing something where people were being co-opted. So, so the decriminalization not only just extends to the sector itself and the protection that it affords the people that work within it, but also the whole idea that it legitimizes an industry that currently is seen as being totally illegitimate. Um, you know, and that extends to how, you know, well, like I said, to all sorts of things. And, and And look, I mean, I don't know if it's ever going to happen. What's your feeling about it?

Oh, I think it's going to happen. It's— I think the EU is a lot more advanced than the States. I hope in 5 to 10 years, realistically, possibly 20. But I mean, 5 to 10 for sure in Europe. You're much further along than we are.

I mean, in Europe, slightly different as well, because firstly, there's not the stigma in a lot of countries just generally. I mean, you know, it's, it's been decriminalized in quite a number of countries in Europe. So I think, you know, we've already set a precedent with exactly for it. And I think that in some other countries, the legislation is quite lax just generally around it. So, you know, I see it more problematic in the, in, in the States, because obviously there's still that strange tension between, between the religious right and all of their hypocrisy combined with, combined with this massive industry that, that, you know, and this huge— and pornography probably being the most visible in terms of the fact that, you know, we know that pornography goes on, is filmed, and that the States is a huge production center for pornography. So it doesn't really make much sense, this whole thing, to me. But, but clearly it makes sense to the people that are making the laws.

Well, it's also something, um, since you brought up pornography, um, ethical pornography versus maybe more of the mainstream channels, um, that are now being called out, and rightfully so, because of the trafficking that is happening, the rape, and just gross violations of, um, human rights violations that are occurring on these sites that are free. And that's where ethical pornography is allowing for actors and content creators to actually be compensated and to have the proper supports that is not available to free pornography. So if we're talking about, you know, things that are tied into that sector, you also need to be very careful of what you're watching because you could be watching a trafficking scenario, scenario that you wouldn't know.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm encouraged. We had Cindy Gallop on a few months ago, and, um, she's been fundraising for her ethical I love that porn. I'm such an awesome woman, and she's actually raised quite a few hundred thousand dollars at the moment, and it's looking like she's gonna— I think she's hit her first target. So bloody hell, it's taken her so long to actually get to that point. Um, but people like her are starting to make waves in the industry. They're starting to be really vocal about the importance of ethical pornography. So I mean, I'm encouraged. Slightly encouraged by, by, by what she does. But I mean, for people, older people, I mean, how important is it? And how many people do you see or speak to that, that are, you know, over 50, over 60 years old? What's the percentage?

A lot. I would say over 50, I would say the majority. Are in that category. Um, and I think a lot of it has to do with starting to face things that, oh, you know, I— nothing's really changing in my life. Um, really kind of reflecting back and still maybe having desires or having things inside of you that hasn't been met in one way or another. Or you have been isolated, your family's all gone, or you've had those health conditions or all of these other things. I'm seeing it much more in that 50+ range, which is very, very unfortunate because that just, again, speaks to the isolation that happens as a society. I mean, it's not all societies, but certain countries where it's— this is how we treat those that are above a certain age, and that's very, very unfortunate. I think it's also important to just remember that just because you hit a certain age, that doesn't mean that your desire is supposed to wane, and you're still important. You're still worthy of being seen, heard, valued, and know that you're important And so sex work is a way of being able to get that for yourself. And especially if you've gone on in life, especially like the certain generations, there's been a lot of this is supposed to be your role. And, you know, if you don't necessarily meet that anymore, or you're still craving a little bit more, sex work is able to fill a little bit of that gap for you.

And how many people talking about the isolation and the loneliness, which we know sometimes leads people to go and see sex workers. How many people do you see for whom this is literally just an opportunity to have a conversation with somebody as opposed to wanting to have any sexual gratification?

Yes, it's the connection. Just wanting to have connection because you don't have that in your life.

Yeah.

Um, I'm, I'm thinking of one Strawberry client specifically that, um, He just tells the same stories over and over and over again because he wants to make sure that somebody really sees him, that his life really has meaning still. And it's very unfortunate that this is what happens, is you're not seen or heard or valued. And, um, and we as sex workers are able to say that, yes, you're important, we care. And even outside of a scene— a scene could be very, very rough. But at the end of the day, you know that I care about you and your well-being. And that, I think, is also the draw for clients that are seeing sex workers, of knowing that just that dynamic, that there really is that true genuine caring for another person that's so often craved. And it could just be a conversation. Not all scenes are always sexual, but it's just knowing that that that dynamic exists and that person actually cares about you, which is, is amazing to be able to do that for someone.

Yeah. And how often do you build relationships with these people as opposed to just, um, see them, you know, once or just a handful of times?

So each sex worker is obviously different, um, they're— the way they operate their business, all of those things. I'm very much a relationship person, um, I'll remember your birthday. I'll remember all those things of you going on a trip. I'll care. I'll check in on you. I'll want to see the projects that you're doing around the house. Not all sex workers are like that and prefer just kind of the one-off and don't like— whether it's fear of getting attached, um, or the attachment, or any of those types of things. I am very much, um, somebody who wants that because I know what that does for the other person and what it even does for me. It's not just You know, um, it's a reciprocal relationship. I'm learning from you just like you're learning from me, and being able to hold space for that is just beautiful for me.

So some of the funny things I remember years ago, I used to, I used to look, just because I was so curious, I used to go on this site called Punternet and have a look around, which was reviews of sex workers. And I was fascinated by the abbreviations that people use Oh, yes, yes, yes. Like literally pages of glossary where there were— So what are the most, the most common ones that you've heard or you know?

The first one that's coming to mind is ABDL. You know, the adult— I think it's the adult babies and diaper lovers. ABDL. So that's— and I think that that's just because it's A. But there's also like the ethical ENM, like ethical non-monogamy. So like this is, you know, all of those types of the also the I'm a rope bunny, I'm like all of these different terms, but we know what it is to make sure that the there's that compatibility, that you're safe and all of, you know, in that dynamic and all of those things and you're not getting two bottoms together. Because that's not gonna work.

Well, the other one that— the other one that I remember was GFE, which was girlfriend experience. Experience. It's like, oh, I guess that means that you get to kiss them or something as well.

Well, it— so sometimes it means no condom. Sometimes girlfriend experience could mean, um, having more of that relationship. It really also goes back to that individual sex worker and what girlfriend experience means to them. And of course, what modality you're accessing.

Oh, interesting. I had no idea. OWO, is that oral without? No. OWO.

Oh, I'm not familiar with that one. I don't know. You're teaching me something. See, look at that.

I don't know. I just remember some of these, like I had to look them up cuz I was like, I do not know what that means. Um, yeah, uh, what was the other one? Oh gosh, um, yeah, there's something about not using a condom, and I know Girlfriend Experience can sometimes be that, um, but again, it just depends.

Yeah, yeah, maybe that's why I don't know if it's D-O-W-O is what that stands for. I'm just, you know, Like I thought it meant oral, oral without a condom.

That's what I thought it meant.

Maybe. I mean, maybe that's—

I have no— I honestly have no idea. CIM, we know what that means. That's kind of— yeah. Anyway, yeah. But the whole world seems to have its own— that world especially seems to have its own lingo, which I just, you know, I'm just quite interested in words, how words are used. I just found it fascinating. But, um, but yeah, no, I mean, look, I think, like I said before, I think that for me this is about if everybody's consensual, if people are doing this because they actually get pleasure out of it and they— and it's a job that they really enjoy doing, I don't really have any problem with it. And I wish that lots of other people would see it that way as well, because I think, as you said, look, we're living in this world where people are isolated. They're lonely. There's only so many ways to deal with that. I mean, you know, the other thing, of course, is that there's a lot of women out there who are equally lonely. And I suspect that for them, this isn't something that, you know, I'm guessing that virtually all your clients are men.

Well, it really depends. It depends. The majority, yes, are. But this is also the importance of sex tech. And this is also, you know, going into my vanilla life, the importance of this world to have, you know, there's a huge orgasm gap and to have more pleasure, being able to be had by women and what that looks like and being able to be safe in our bodies. And it's— this is why I have these conversations so that we can normalize these issues.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's been a fascinating, fascinating discussion. Is there anything more you think that I've missed out on?

No.

Did you—

what did you learn from me today with all of this? Well, other than the girlfriend experience thing.

Oh no. Well, that was interesting. No, I mean, you know, I think for me it's about, as you said, when we think of sex work, we often think of it in isolation as a, as people who meet up like escorts and prostitutes to just define, you know, people who basically meet for sexual intercourse or some form of that, right? And we don't think of it to the entire range of, you know, activities that go on in the world, which all come under the same umbrella. And of course, some of them are seen as kind of you know, somewhat acceptable or even funny. Like back in the day when people used to ring up phone lines, I suspect nobody really took— they thought, oh, you know, well, if somebody wants to spend £200 on a phone call for an hour, you know, let them. But they didn't think, you know, but if somebody wants to go and see a sex worker for £200 an hour who's going to have physical, you know, intercourse with them, then that has a whole nother stigma attached. So I think you're right, we have to look at the industry as a whole and think about all the different aspects of it and how we can decriminalize the whole lot and make it safe for everybody, not just the people that work in it, but the people that want to engage with those people who work in it. And how can we, and how can we make that acceptable? You know, because in doing so, as we, as you said, we take an enormous amount of pressure off relationships where people are having intimacy where they don't want to, you know, and they're not having pleasurable sex, and they're kind of, you know, in long-term relationships, maybe being forced to do things that they don't really enjoy. And I know, and I know, um, I know of some couples where they've just said, look, I'm not into BDSM, for instance, but you go and see a sex worker who wants to do that because it's just not something I'm interested in. They had the discussion, they decided that was the safest way to protect their relationship and off they went and they did it, and it was fine, you know. So I think the more we discuss these sorts of things and the options that are out there, the, the better we, you know, the better our interpersonal relationships and the better just generally for society. That's my, that's my spin on it.

I agree. Sex work is social work. Any sex worker will tell you that, and that's, that's the reality. And it's not these perverted things that society likes to spin it as. It's really— it's about connection, intimacy, that authentic relationship between two people, or five, or ten. I mean, whatever you're wanting at the moment. We get a counterweight.

Yeah, you got the cash, you can do it.

Exactly.

Anyway, lovely to talk to you. Thanks so much. Thank you.