Episode 89: What are your Sexual Values?

Hi, this is Suzanne Noble and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. And on this episode of the program today, I'm very excited to talk to Dr. Rebecca Layham, who is has got a CV that I've just said to her is so long that I probably shouldn't have printed it out because it took up a whole ream of paper. It was so long.

It was—

oh no, it was— that's just exaggerating, of course. But, um, she does have an incredibly extensive resume. And yeah, um, and you've been a psychologist for around 100 years now, since 1996. And, um, and today we're going to talk about, uh, you can introduce yourself, Rebecca, but today we're going to talk about sexual values, something that we've never discussed in the 80-some-odd episodes of this program, sexual values. So welcome, Rebecca.

Thank you. I'm glad to be here. So yeah, I'm Dr. Rebecca Lahan, and I am a clinical psychologist and also an AASECT-certified sex therapist. I am the clinical director of Spectrum Psychology and Wellness in Gilbert, Arizona. And one of my specialties is working with individuals around holistic sex therapy, really helping people work on, on the intersectional approaches to values-aligned living across their lifespan. And so I'm really glad to be talking to you today.

Yeah, and I'm really excited to speak to you about this. I mean, one of the things that we were talking before the show started was just about values and, and sexual values, which is actually, to be honest, two words I've not really ever heard put together. What does it mean to have sexual values as opposed to just our values?

Yeah, no, that's a great question. And it's a, it's one that I'm often challenging people to really look at because our personal values tend to be the compass that guides our lives and helps us understand the importance of our journey and self-discovery and personal growth. But oftentimes we don't really do the same work on really understanding sexual values. So, you know, considering what your values are around sexuality and if you think about what you learned for your life values and what was worth pursuing or what mattered to you, how did you know what you believed or wanted when it comes to intimacy? Because we're commonly things like our personal values of being respectful or communicating, setting boundaries, being a hard worker, being honest, accountable. But oftentimes we're not really taught about how to behave in bed specifically. And it's important to understand that, that value around sexuality because they're a crucial component of our overall value system and they play a really significant role in shaping our relationships and our well-being and if we're fulfilled in those relationships.

Yeah, and I suspect that also when people think about their own values, for instance, being kind or, or being honest, or as you said, being respectful, that because of some of the imagery that we see around sex— I always refer back to pornography where often people are not being kind and they're not being respectful and people's boundaries are not being met and, uh, or considered—

how—

and this sometimes some of the earliest experiences that we have of seeing sex, or maybe our early years experience, or our very earliest experience of sex was traumatic, or where there was no consent. How much does that set a pattern of behavior that is misaligned with our internal value system?

Absolutely. If we use things often that were handed to us, then we don't really have a good sense of what our personal beliefs and values and meaningful experiences look like. And so it's really easy to take what someone tells us it should be and then wonder why we're not quite feeling fulfilled or why it doesn't quite feel like it should look that, you know, the ways that we're taught or told that it, you know, by watching things like pornography. It's really important to understand what is meaningful to us personally, not just what someone either says should be meaningful or even, you know, from a shame component around sexuality. If someone says that something should be good or bad or right or wrong, really standing back and clarifying what does it mean to me so that I can make sure that I am communicating my needs and values in a way that really, really assures that I'm going to be in a relationship that's aligned with being fulfilled because that person shares my core beliefs and preferences.

How do you even open up that discussion? One of the things that I was speaking about before this show started was about the fact that some of the reasons that I want to talk about topics like this that we probably never even heard of when we were younger or didn't even think about is because I do believe that at this stage of life, we, especially for those of us who are single, we can think about designing our future relationships as we would really like them to be, rather than the way they were handed to us, often from our parents or from societal expectations. That this is a time of life where often people think, oh, those old people, they don't need to have sex anymore, and they don't need to do this, and they don't need to do that because they're not procreating, so let's not talk about it. But my belief is that this is a great opportunity for us to actually dig deep into what matters for us and to actually say, do you know what, I want my next relationship to look like this. How can we begin to have those kinds of conversations with someone that we like, for instance, and may just be starting to go out with? How do we have those conversations?

Well, I would go, I would go back a step further before the conversations, and I would really encourage self-reflection first before you even start asking what someone else's preferences and values are. So even just like you said, really looking at what are our own influences. Where did you learn about sex? Who taught you most of the information that you received? And was it Was it negative? Was it positive? How did the concept of gender expectations impact that? What were you taught around what kinds of pleasure you might want to have, or if even pleasure was even part of those conversations, because it's often not. In what ways did it include what kind of sexual partner you want to be? What your sexual beliefs or values are that you are living today, and that may not be your own, that may have been told to you or someone else's. So really doing some of that self-reflective work, because once you do that, then you can really look at, do those actually match what I— if I were to create my ideal sexuality and values in my relationships, do the things that I just reflected on match that? Because then I can say, am I out of alignment in that space? Are they based on a template that was handed to me by someone else? Do they come from a story that is so rigid that it doesn't align with some of the true authentic experiences that I've had? Or are they reinforcing patterns of internalized messages that have been really damaged or based on scripts that don't fit me? Because then you can really look at— and I should add as well, if it's— if there's any shame involved, what was the experience that created either negative body image negative messages around identity or personal rules that really create an expectation of what your sexual script should look like. Because then you can really start to say, okay, if I'm really clear about what is my ability to stay present, to notice what's going on for me, to be able to really look at how am I stuck in some of those rigid rules, How can I accept which parts are my authentic truth? What is important to me that it becomes or that I live by authentically? And then how do I commit to start to communicate those in my actions and in my expectations of my partners through boundaries and communication? And I think that's where we start the conversation with partners. So there's a lot of work that has to happen before that moment, because if you don't, you really run the risk of saying, for example, if I'm a people pleaser, you tell me what you like so that I can match that so that you like me, so that I'm okay. Right. And I think a lot of people get stuck in that cycle and then wonder, why am I not feeling fulfilled or authentic? Yeah.

And just hearing you say that makes me think that that work in itself is a lifetime of work.

Sure.

This is not a quick fix, right? I mean, I'm sure— 63 years old, I have had a huge amount of sexual experiences. I can tell you that some of them were probably driven by fantasies that I read about, saw. Yeah, whatever came from something out there in the ether. Some of the stuff was around what I was told I should expect and would be, you know, i.e., get married, have kids, you know, kind of the, this is the way it goes. Some of it I just found out for myself because I just chose to throw myself into lots of different environments, lifestyles, all sorts of things during which I could pick and choose things and go, that was not so fun. That was kind of fun. That was okay. That was, I don't really want to do that again. And similarly, a number of relationships fell apart because in some way I just felt dissatisfied. And that could have been again, because I was, I set myself up with a lot of unrealistic expectations, or I had a lot of programming that said, this is the way these things are supposed to go. And because they didn't, I just went, well, I guess that's— we got to move on from this one. So, I mean, it's— there's, you know, this is— this is not easy work to unpick all the ways that society, our family, religion, culture, upbringing influences how we experience intimacy.

Well, it's not easy, but you know, it's not, it's not overly complex to start to do the work either because it sounds so big. But really, if I were to really solidify it down to one concept, it would be being present and being in your observing self. And what I mean by that is if you're fully in the moment in your body with all of your senses in this moment, not the future, not the past, then you can ask yourself, is this working for me? And it's such a simple question, but really saying, is this, is this helpful? Is this moving me towards the thing that I've said because of that prior self-reflection that this is what I'd like it to look, look like? And if I don't judge it, if I don't say it's bad or good or right or wrong, I just say, is it working for me? Then what I can also do is really let go of the control to the desire to control that experience or that emotion, stay in that present moment, and then choose an action, just one action that's going to start moving me back towards the thing that is important to me and be aligned with my values. And I realize that that's easier to say than to do, but it really is a simple framework to be able to start to clarify what it is that keeps me out of alignment and keeps me stuck in behaviors that are, that are not working for me and moving me towards ones that will.

Yeah. And I, I suspect also, look, some of these values are pretty basic that sometimes our stupid brain overrides in our quest to try and find some relationship that we think is what we, you know, is what we want, which could be somebody who is clearly being dishonest, for instance, or, or somebody who is just not being kind. I mean, often I see people who I just think that whatever you— what you just said just wasn't kind. And kindness for me is kind of like the, the one of my basic values is just be kind. So when I meet people who I think are kind, then I respond to them because I recognize someone else who values kindness, and I think that's important.

Absolutely.

But who values dishonesty? Nobody values dishonesty, or they shouldn't.

And yet so many people put up with it. Absolutely. Exactly. And, you know, to your point, I think being able to even look at sexuality and aging is a really good example of this. Because we tend to be so locked into what we think it should look like or what we remember that it used to look like or what we want it to look like that we create so much struggle in that moment. And even just being able to recognize the impact of aging and use that, you know, be present and choose something that's gonna work instead of be in conflict with it. So an example might be with aging, it takes a longer time to reach excitement and to get arousal going in the body. And instead of being frustrated and being in your head and judging it and wondering what your partner thinks, you know, is that working? No, it's not. So what is more workable? You know, grab a clitoral stimulator for direct contact. Use, use lubrication, add things that will make it workable instead of being conflict. The ability to recognize the conflict around the, you know, the hormone changes in the body and how they may impact either pain or lubrication or erection. Instead of again being in that place of absolute fight with that experience, really being able to say, okay, if my value is intimacy and pleasure, then is my expectation and my fight with my body helping that value?

No.

Okay. So how do I shift my focus from achieving orgasm in a way that I, that I would like it to be in this moment to just enjoying pleasure, letting go of that goal-oriented thinking and then see what happens. So those are examples of ways that we can just assess very quickly in our sexuality and our intimacy. Is this aligned with what I would like it to be, or am I staying stuck in an old outdated pattern? That's not, that's not working for me.

Yeah, definitely. And we often say here that it's different when you're older. Sex is different when you're older. And we have to acknowledge that our bodies are different, our arousal patterns are different. And some of us, as we spoke about before, you know, one of the big things we know is a lack of confidence around one's physical appearance. You know, I look down at the tiny wrinkles on my stomach and I wish they weren't there.

Absolutely.

But they are there and they're not going to—

Absolutely.

So we have to just go give, you know, give ourselves permission to, to just age and accept that these are the physical manifestations of aging, but they don't mean that we can't experience pleasure. It's just going to be, as you say, different. Feelings, different kinds of pleasure. It's going to take longer to orgasm. And, you know, as my— as my— one of my co-hosts always said, unreliable erections. Unreliable, right?

Yes.

You know, but unreliable erections don't mean that you can't have fun. And so, you know, again, going back to— you meet your— for, for some of us out there dating or with people in relatively new relationships. There's a lot of— it's not— it seems to me that one of the, you know, one of the aspects around understanding our own values and our own boundaries and issues around consent is also being able to be with someone who's equally clear about that because it can't be all one-sided. So You know, that's another, that's another kind of challenge, isn't it? How do you get a man to make his own value system?

Well, that's, that's a great question. And I think that if you are clear, I think we do a better job at this in our, our, our non-sexual values. If we can say that I don't know, family is important to me. Supporting my career is important to me. Faith might be important. Just being able to really look at what are your basics that you show up to a dating relationship and you say, are we a match? Are you going to be aligned with my life choices? If we are not also doing that around sexual values, we're missing a huge piece of what is the point of intimacy and connection beyond the day-to-day choices that we're making with that partner. And so you can be completely misaligned in a massive space of emotional connection that, you know, you can have support in these other values, but the quality of the relationship will really suffer.

Yeah. So do you have any little practical tips for— you've met somebody and you want to make sure that you're on the same page, not just from the basic values that we have that we share, but perhaps on our sexual values as well. What are some ways that we can just— what are these early conversations? What, what can they look like? Is there some— yeah, fun little way that we can— well, it—

I think, you know, being able to like you said, facilitate conversations around what are your needs? What are your turn-ons? What are your turn-offs? What has been some of your most intimate moments of connection and what was the context of that? What has your experience been around emotional safety and fulfillment? Because you start to tease apart compatibility. You start to be able to have those conversations about, about consent because it might be, ooh, I've never done that, but I might be willing to try under the right circumstances or boundaries. Yeah, that's not something that I would be interested in. And then being able to understand that our values often determine our risk preferences and we We don't tend to consciously define those sexual values until we encounter things that challenge our stance. So having those conversations early on can really help you decide, am I willing or am I, am I not? Is this person going to be compatible or not? And understanding and communicating those sexual values really builds those healthy relationships because it helps make informed decisions for both of you. And you start off on the same page of willingness.

Yeah, I mean, I know that sometimes because of my experiences, sometimes I'll say to my partner, oh, I was thinking about maybe we could do this. How are you feeling about that? And he'd say things like, oh yeah, that sounds like really fun. That could be fun. I'd really like to do that. But you know, it's not I think my experience is that it's— some men I know will— are very clear about what they like, what they fantasize about, what they don't like. Others of them will say, if they think it's something that their partner enjoys— and I suspect the people pleasers are like this— they will go, oh, if that makes you happy, yeah, of course I'd love to do that, right? And then you get in this situation and you're like, oh, clearly that's actually not true. Clearly they're really uncomfortable here. We're not on the same page with this one. Suddenly the fantasy is no longer the fantasy. It's now become reality. And it's all a bit scary because there's jealousy and all sorts of things. So I think also, you know, my experience is that a lot of this stuff is, is you can, you can, you can be clear about if you're in the, in the vanilla space. Which, you know, if you're both— if you both are into monogamy, if you— if, if you're— if you're not— if you don't want to play too much outside of the traditional zones, but it's when— it's when one person might want to get a bit kinky or do something that involves some degree of pain, or, you know, or bring other people in or something, which can happen, by the way, at any stage of life. And I know that lots of older people start to engage with alternative stuff when they're out of their long-term marriage, because it's like now or never, right? And they go, right, it's time, it's time. I'm going to, I'm going to try all of this kind of stuff. And it's for me, these sorts of conversations, this is when it becomes really important for me that people are, that people can be, can articulate what makes them comfortable, what doesn't make them comfortable. Where, how, what are their values around, you know, around things like jealousy and all, you know, stuff like that, that where all of this thing is can come in because we can, you know, some of it I feel is kind of like, well, if you're not subscribing to honesty, then I'm not. I think few people would buy, would, would, would want to go out with a person like that. But if you're not subscribing to the sanctity of marriage, for instance, as an institution, that's, well, yeah, maybe that's one that's a bit more difficult because, you know, or monogamy or any of those sorts of things. So I think there's levels of, there's also levels of we're all on the same page with this one, or yeah, this one has to be up for conversation.

No, there's definitely levels. And, you know, there's ways to get at that before you are in the thick of it. And being able, you know, it all comes back to frequent communication, but, you know, being able to make it fun and playful. There's lots of what are called yes, no, maybe lists that you can download off the internet. And, you know, I often add the enthusiastic yes, yes, no, maybe in that, because I think you can go through some of those lists as a fun way to just say, what do you think of this? And then if you get a sense of the patterns of the way that someone is responding along those, I think you do get a clear sense of this one was a yes, but it wasn't an enthusiastic yes, or it was a maybe. But you said, you know, no on this one. So what's going on there? And so that's a fun way to really hone in on someone's authentic choices around having the freedom to say more spontaneously a bigger list than just this one ask, because I do think there's pressure when it's that one ask. And then the other thing is just frequent check-ins while you are in the thick of it. How is this feeling? What, what? You know, what, what are your thoughts? Is this good? Do you need to slow down? Is this— does something need to change? Do we need to reposition? Is something hurting? You know, just that constant feedback. And, you know, to your point around, you know, people can engage in kink at any point in, in any stage of the lifestyle. There are some considerations when we talk about over 50 kinky crowd, I'll say, because of some of the, the literal physical considerations. So things like flexibility, blood circulation, eyesight, hearing, right? Those are real things that we need to consider in those spaces because, you know, you can be in a fun kinky position and all of a sudden you know, your hip starts to hurt and you need to move, or the blood circulation. People who start to experiment with any kind of impact play, remembering that our skin is thinner as we age, you know, like the upper arms area, for example. And so there are considerations around how do we recognize that aging creates a whole lot of possibilities that are maybe no longer as orgasm outcome-based as, as we used to think about sexuality in our 20s. But think about how can you shift into conscious pleasure-based as well as orgasm? And that's a whole different world. But you do have to think about some of those practical considerations in that.

Oh yeah, for sure. And I would say that just generally, one of the things that I've always loved about the kinky crowd is that typically consent is just kind of ingrained in kink because of the nature of the way people like to play. So they're very used to like the stoplight system of red, yellow, green, and all of that kind of thing. Whereas often in, in more traditional relationships, you might be experiencing pain and too afraid to talk about it because you feel ashamed of the fact that, you know, that things hurt when they didn't used to hurt. And, and so therefore it's more, you know, it's, it's sometimes can be more difficult to have those sorts of conversations, which I think is where, as you said before, if you start as you mean to go on and you meet someone, you start talking about your basic values, you start to talk about whether or not you feel aligned on those values. Then it becomes easier to talk about other things that are more sensitive because you've already set the pattern of being able to just say, this isn't feeling good, or I'm not sure about that. I've got another word for the somewhat enthusiastic but not quite sure, which is, which a coach of mine told me, which is, 'cause I'm a yes person. So I just always say yes to everything and then I live to regret it. So she said to me, why don't you, why don't you replace yes with let me think about it? And I was like, oh, I like that. Let me, let me think about it. Gives me a time to reflect and go, and go maybe, but maybe not. So it's not quite maybe, not quite no. It's maybe it's yes. We haven't. We haven't taken it off the table. I just need to go away and to my cave and decide whether or not it's, it's actually, you know, this is a good idea or not. So let me think about what I would add to the list. But I love that idea of just like doing a shopping list and making it like a game, just like really fun, just, just writing a whole bunch of things down and going, nope, nope. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Maybe, perhaps. Let me think about it. And the other thing that was in your book, Gurel, Esther Perel did a thing about write on Post-it notes, you— it, um, I turn myself on when, and I turn myself off when. And they weren't sexual things, they were just like, I turn myself on when I'm dancing, and I turn myself off when I'm procrastinating over something I should be doing, or something, right? And I liked that as another way of just engaging with an intimate side of ourselves that isn't necessary, that has nothing to do with sex. It's just to do with understanding your partner a bit better.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, that foreplay starts at 8 AM. You've got to start to create an environment of mindset that it doesn't just show up and turn on in the bedroom. And to your point earlier, I think if you start early creating a safe communication expectation of non-judgment and hearing vulnerabilities and being able to talk about scary and uncomfortable things, then it's not sexy to say, oh, stop, I'm hurting. But if you've created the safe space to be able to say that comfortably, then you don't hesitate.

Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree. And for me, that's the benefit of when you start a relationship is that you can you can, you can start as you mean to go on. I think one of the hardest things to do, and I still think, and I think it's very difficult no matter how much people say, is that if you've been in a very long-term relationship and things aren't working and you want to stay together and, and you've stopped having uncomfortable conversations, or maybe you never had them ever, um, it's really difficult to start having uncomfortable conversations when you've been with someone 20-odd years. It's just I just think it's hard. And I think that's kind of where people like yourself make all your money. It's, you know, that's because I don't know how you do it without having some sort of intervention from a specialist, because I think it takes an enormous amount of courage. And it does.

Yeah.

It's really difficult. But I think it's much easier. I always think it's, you know, we all have the opportunity to do, to try and get it right no matter how old we are, whatever getting it right means for us.

Absolutely. You'll know that if you're aligned with your values.

And what a great way that is to end.

Right.

We should all be aligned with our values. Yes. You're welcome. Thank you so much, Rebecca. It's been a pleasure speaking with you.

Absolutely. Thank you for having me.