Episode 97: Practical Ways to Deepen Intimacy

Hi, I'm Suzanne Noble, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. And today I'm with somebody that I've admired, I've wanted to speak to, I'm really excited to talk to, and that's Leora Lightwoman of Diamond Light Tantra. I know that we've spoken to quite a few people that are tantric practitioners on the program, but Leonora— Leora, sorry— is quite special. A, you've been doing this for a really long time, since 1995. So that makes you pre-Sting and Trudy and all of that nonsense that a lot of people do think about, I suspect, still when they think about tantra. You trained with Margot Anand, who wrote the seminal book The Art of Sexual Ecstasy, which was the very first tantra book that I found in a secondhand bookshop, and I still have by my bedside, and I probably will never part start with because it is a really classic piece of work. And so welcome, welcome to Sex Advice for Seniors. Hello.

Thank you so much, Suzanne Noble. I'm so delighted and honored to be here and thrilled to be talking about this topic.

Yeah, so we were talking earlier, specifically in relation to older people, how you approach Tantra, what, what your view of it is. And specifically how it can really help when you are an older person. Big broad topic there.

Thank you. No, I'm really excited to talk about this, partly as I've just had another birthday and I feel like I'm really becoming an older person. Um, and that, you know, that, that what all— what, what becoming older can do is hone us. We have perhaps a little bit less, um, energy to do everything all at once. And that also transfers to sex where we can really be asking ourselves questions. What do I really want? What is fulfillment for me? And what do I no longer want? And I think a lot of these— the language used around sex for older people is trying to reclaim something that we had rather than trying to discover something that we can now really live into. And, um, and one of those elements that I think is so key is authenticity. And the reason why that becomes imperative is that some people, a lot of people, cannot actually have full sexual functioning without that when they get older. Whereas when they're younger, the hormones will take over and you can do whatever you want, whether you're completely out of integrity or not, the body will usually comply.

Yeah, it's a really good point. And for me, that relates to being present, right? Just being in this, in the moment, which often is difficult for people who perhaps have always associated sex with being off their heads, like you said, where their body just sort of did what it was meant to do, but their mind was floating in some other, you know, universe. And that becomes more challenging when we're older and the body's like, yeah, if you're not with me right here now, then I'm— the rest of it, the parts aren't going to work. So how do you help people to get to that place if they've never been there before?

Well, well, it depends obviously where we're starting from because I'm getting to know that person, but But there's an exercise that couples can do together, which is really beautiful and very simple, involving eye contact and a sense of what's called receptive gaze, where they're just really feeling the sensations in the body whilst receiving the other. So I would say 70% of their awareness is in the body and 30%, the sight is like with soft eyes letting in the other and feeling and sensing and noticing all the tiny movements, both within their own body but within the face of the partner. And if both people are doing that, what you can also do, what I can do, what listeners can do at home, is just when you notice a little change in your partner, you raise a finger or you do a little gesture and you do this, you just do this and you just start to acknowledge tiny changes in your partner, and they start to notice tiny changes in you. And without any sex, this starts to become very exciting because you're, you're, you're, you're attuned.

Yeah.

And the heart starts to open, and we start to feel— when the heart opens, in fact, arousal is something that happens when we're in the relaxed, parasympathetic connect and cuddle mode. That's when arousal happens. We think it's about like all the charge, but actually it's about deep relaxation. So when we feel loved, when we feel cherished, when we feel really present and attended to, and when we get also more interested in connecting with another than our own head, you know, what's wrong with me, rather than, oh my God, what's happening with you? How are you? God, this is exciting.

Yeah.

Then actually it starts to happen.

And for me, that's almost— that's really essential, that sense of connecting with somebody at this age because of the way we do become aroused in later life, especially women who just become more responsive rather than spontaneous. And I think that responsiveness that you're talking about is what helps to create arousal. Without that, for me, I can't just walk by somebody on the street and think, "God, you're so hot. I really just wanna, you know, I wanna get it on with you." I need that sense of connection. And I suspect the reason why some couples struggle at this age is because they're used to that past way of doing things. And so when you introduce something like this, it's so different than what they were used to that it can be, I suppose it might seem a little, it might make them feel quite vulnerable. Do you?

I think you've really, you know, spoken to the issue that people face because actually it does require vulnerability.

Absolutely.

And that's, you know, We don't know if a couple, um, you know, are coming to, you know, to look for help, whether that's something they've ever really encountered and where they are on that scale and what that might mean. And it can be terrifying because, um, a long-standing relationship— people might be scared that if they do something different or open up in a new way, they might lose something.

Yeah, yeah. Well, that's why I always think that it's much easier as an older person to start something new than to try and fix or help people to support them to change something that's deeply established. It's, it's really, you really have to be intentional about it. You have to want, I suspect both people need to want to do it. I read a little case study on your website that said a couple came to you and the guy was a little bit reticent about all of this. How do you deal with that?

Again, it's very much on an individual basis, but it's true that often it's the woman who brings the man, and it's trying to understand what is the man looking for. And there's a recent testimonial from a couple I worked with this year, just for one day, where he really felt in the session listened to, and he had some really important influence to add to the relationship that she just didn't understand because she wasn't, in a sense, speaking his language. So I suppose this sense that both are equals and actually both have a part to play, and that everyone needs to be heard and understood. But let me try and be a bit more specific. I think You know, we have this idea that men aren't interested. This is as a woman, you know, that women can have an idea that men aren't interested in the things that we're interested in. But my experience isn't the case. Mostly, that's really not the case. And I see men really deeply wanting to connect with their women and have them be happy. But they just come up against so much pain and discomfort in themselves in that process because if she says to him, you know, this isn't quite working for me, I'd like it like this. He feels devastated.

Yeah, yeah.

And then everything is, you know, awry. But to understand that, you know, she's really talking to his, his, his manhood and saying, I see it in you, you have it, please can I have some of that?

Yeah. And we were talking about, um, some of the challenges that we often face as we get older with regard to our health and how that can impact, especially for— well, not just solely for men, but taking men as an example, you know, there are, there are quite a lot of the, the, the stats around erectile dysfunction and also the number of men that are having to have their prostate removed or operated on in some way is really, really high. I think it's the stat for erectile dysfunction is something like nearly 50% of men over 50 or 60 will have ED. And, and I know, you know, quite a lot of men personally that have had issues with their prostate, which of course impacts also on their ability to get an erection. And getting an erection, it seems to be the primary focus of, of everybody that's out there dealing with male sexual health issues, right? It's just like, we, we need to find a way for you to get an erection. So, but your approach is quite different.

Yes, it is. And I was just going to backtrack, if I might, because this is quite a good platform to answer the question that you've just said, going back to how do, how do I get the man's buy-in and how do we get that sense of equality and charge, like enjoyment happening. And there are various exercises which are about genital awareness and starting to really get a sense of what it means to feel into the genitals. Not just about like this sharp charge of I must, you know—

Orgasm.

Orgasm, or I must, but like a whole range of sensitivity. And that's where, when you were talking about that interplay between people, we were talking earlier about that, it can happen genitally. And when that's happening, it's incredible. And that doesn't actually require a full erection. So, so, so I'm talking predominantly about heterosexual couple because that's what I'm familiar with. And that's predominantly the client base I work with, with this. I mean, I've worked with people with all sexual sexualities and genders, but in this respect, I'm talking about when a, when a penis is inside a vagina. Yeah. And you know, if, if he's not fully erect, there are sexual positions where he can stay in soft or partially soft. And when both of the couple are really aware of their genitals and noticing this subtle interplays, you can really feel when connection happens and it's thrilling throughout the body. And just knowing that erection is, you know, and full erection is not compulsory for incredible genital connection is, is a big relief. So if we just start there, that that goes across the board, people who've not had surgery, who don't have ED, You know, and then that also can help with women who've got vaginal soreness, vaginal dryness, issues with menopause that come along with that. So two men that I know, one who was a student of mine, one who's a long-term friend, both in their late 60s, have recently had prostatectomies, and both in their own way are in the best sexual relationship that they've been in in their lives. So this is clearly possible. And, you know, I think it also demands a lot of compassion for what, you know, what a man can go through when this is the case. And in fact, one of them was telling me that in fact, you know, the penis gets a bit smaller because they have to connect where the bladder connects to the urethra, and actually where the prostate was as a space. So when they come together, it pulls the penis in. You know, you don't get You don't get ejaculation, you get dry orgasms, and they're not as intense. There's nerve damage that can be permanent but actually can repair, and in the case of both these men, that has repaired. But what they've said has become incredible is just that sense of even more fully separating this idea of manhood from an erect penis and having a real sense of manhood as, as, as like the man is erect. It's what, what's a woman want? Yes, she wants to be penetrated, but she doesn't just want her vagina to be penetrated. She wants her whole being to be penetrated. And these, these two men I'm speaking of are the kind of men who will do that. We'll offer that to a woman, and what more could we want? You know, full, you know, fully connected sexually, maybe not always with a full erection, um, but, but fully connected. And there's, you know, that both these men, you know, have had nerve damage to the extent that they're helped by the injection that you get off the prostatectomy, and, and One of them said how they really refined the dose to get it just right, him and his partner, long-term partner, and the other one is with a new partner. And he said, "It's amazing," he said, "because the thing is that I don't need to even think about ejaculation because I can just continue in a way that just takes us to a deeper level." So they're having the most extraordinary experience and he's able to have natural erections now without the injection, particularly when he's not thinking about it.

Wow, that's impressive.

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, so, so it's all about creating this sense of, of, of, of, of charge. Of what, what woman doesn't want to be absolutely adored, you know, touched all over with love, with adoration, with words? Listened to, you know, noticed, oh, this just happened in your vagina. I just noticed you did this. I just, ooh, and how about, and oh, when I do this, you know, do you like, just every moment is fabulous.

Yeah, I mean, look, it's opening oneself up to vulnerability. It's also about that sense of trust in being able to receive someone in a way that is, different from the way that you maybe received them previously and being able to acknowledge that that can be even better than— because I, I suspect that there is a deep sense when any operation takes place, whether it's your prostate or your hysterectomy or whatever, that by removing stuff, organs, that you're somehow less than. I mean, How could you not feel that? Because they have literally taken things out of you. So we have to be able to, you know, to get to a place where you're still whole and without those other things. And I think that is difficult for people. You know, I felt during the menopause losing estrogen, but that was a time of grieving over something that wasn't going to come back. And I had to go through that process to, to get to where I am now, which is to be happy. So, you know, I always think if you can do this in one day with a couple, then you must be absolutely a superstar. But I know that for me anyway, this was a very long journey that I went on with reacquainting, with re-engaging with my body in a different way. And being happy that it was just going to take me longer to orgasm, or maybe not at all, and that was okay, you know. But, but you have to be enlightened to a certain level, I suspect, even to want to go to that place that you're talking about. Um, you just— it's hard otherwise, isn't it?

Agree. It's impossible to move into the new without grieving the old. So I'm not trying to simplify or, you know, um, diminish that process because it's very different for different women. People go through menopause in very different ways.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think the thing is that in befriending the grief, it doesn't have to be just sequential. So there can be a flow with— you talked about vulnerability— there can be a flow in sex where the grief comes. And if that woman's partner can be with them—

yeah—

in that moment of the grief and let it come, then it becomes part of the lovemaking. And when that moves through, actually often more sexual energy is there. So we can, we can, we can flow between something that feels beautiful and something that feels really painful but is poignant and beautiful in its own way. And learning to flow with that— and this you know, it's not just about heterosexual couples, it's just about learning to be in what's here in this moment. And, and so then it is making love. And I think I prefer to use that phrase than sex, because sex just is— it's— we have to kind of lose that terminology that this is a functional thing, because the functional thing is not functioning the way it did. No, nor should it. This, this is, this is an art. It does take work, it does take time, it does take Persistence, commitment. But as we start to see and feel these things emerging, the incentive, to answer your earlier question, becomes inherent in the process.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. You know, it's— there are so many emails and messages that I get from people, really so many, I can't even begin to tell you. Every single day, probably 20 at least, that are from people who just have no, no intimate life whatsoever. None at all. Either their partner is no longer interested, or they're lonely and they're alone and they don't know what to do. They want to have some sort of sexual life or intimate life, but they are— they just can't find it. And there's a lot of those people out there. So what would your suggestion to— if you are in that place where you're just not finding any intimacy at all, how do you start?

Well, maybe we start talking about the couples and then we start talking about the people who are single, um, because I suppose it depends on you know, how willing the partner is, in the case of a couple, to, to really explore together. And I think the problem that a lot of people face is, is resignation and hopelessness, because usually by the time a couple have been together a long time and are now older, so much has happened, and they've tried and they failed. And so what I'm often up against when I first meet a couple is this real sense of hopelessness and, you know, very low tolerance for anything new because of the expectation, understandably, of disappointment. Yeah, yeah. So I think the first thing is to start to get, you know, that sense of an inkling of, oh yes, here you are, here I am. To take it away from the wham-bam type of sex and perhaps some very, very gentle caressing that is just about receiving and just about giving, that has no other agenda and that is really about the pleasure in the simple touch and the way that that, again, like we were talking about this this vibrational quality starts to enliven the body. And no focus on the genitals, just about, again, cherishing. Here you are, here I am. And this sense that, yes, we can be loved, that we can be cherished. And, um, it's very hard to answer your question generically because, again, it's, it's, it's a matter of just noticing where does the, where does the connection happen. Sometimes I invite one to lead and the other to follow in a very simple way. Maybe one might close their eyes and the other might just gently guide them. And we can start to explore what happens in this whole sense of what it's like to soften and surrender, what it's like to lead and initiate, and vice versa. We all know about talking about wants and needs, but that's pretty unstraightforward for most people that I've met. So I would start with a meditation, which is literally about people— one person listens, the other speaks for about 2 minutes to start with, just stream of consciousness saying, "I want, I want, I want." Not things that they necessarily do want and not things that are necessarily going to happen. This isn't strategic. You have to separate the strategy from this relationship with self and with wanting because sexuality also has to do with what do I want? What's alive? What's juicy? So if someone talks for 2 minutes, "I want this, I want this moment, I want an ice cream, I want you to touch me, I want this, I want..." Whatever it is that comes up, the other one says, "Yes, thank you." Then you swap. "I want you to slap my face, thank you. I want you to..." And it's not going to happen, so it's not scary. It's just getting to know the other, but even more profoundly, one person getting to know themselves. It really opens things up as a starting point. And then there's lots of directions we can go from there.

And do you typically work with people in a room? So are they there and you are guiding them?

Preferably, yes. Um, but I do work with, with couples on Zoom as well where that's not possible, that they can be here in person, because we work with that, you know, very familiar. And, and really simple postures about certain ways that, that one can hold the other can just been holding so much for so many years. It's just creating that safety, the right container in the right way that we can let go. And then something can start.

Yeah. I mean, it's, I think even just being able to articulate what you want, even if you don't necessarily think you're gonna get it all, it's again, it's quite a scary thing to do. I've sometimes suggested to people, they write it on Post-it notes and they leave it strategically on bathroom windows and whatever, you know, just because if you, as you said, the vernacular around wants and needs isn't always natural for many people, especially if they've never even thought about it themselves, never allowed themselves really to think about it themselves, what they really want. Maybe they've just been told what they want, which again, for me goes to the thing about age because Often in our youth, there are societal expectations about what we think that we want. And for me, older age is about redefining what we really do want without having to think about all of that stuff from our youth because that was then. And it's sort of come back full circle, this conversation, but I do think that there is something to be said about this is the opportunity that we all have despite, you know, chronic illnesses, despite all the shit that sometimes we encounter just through being an older person. This is the, this is the time of life where we can actually just chuck away the rulebook and, and think about all of this differently. And I think that's really, for me, what this conversation is all about.

It's about—

I don't know if you would agree that Tantra is often about the exploration of what intimacy can look like, rather than some sort of generic expectation.

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think inherent in that is the theme of innocence. And, and the fact that it can change at any moment, that it's not this or that. It's not like, this is what I want, and this is what we're going for. It's like, right now there's this, and oh my goodness, I never expected I'm feeling passionate and angry. Right now, I just feel like a delicate little flower. And all of these things can weave. And so it's constantly reinventing itself. It's constantly alive. And there's this sense in Tantra where we can get to a place— Tantra means expansion— of a bigger place. And it's not through some strange and weird and way out and amazing acrobatics. It's not to do with that. It's to do with noticing. It's to do with becoming aware of the other and of something bigger, which I can't really say so much in a podcast, but it is our birthright and it is accessible to all of us without, as I said, acrobatics and contortions. It's really simple in its own way. And just to come back to what you said about dating and being alone and older person, I really Someone said to me when I was a lot younger, an older woman, she said to me, "People just don't see me anymore." And then I started to notice as I got a bit older becoming slightly less visible as time went on and it's like, "Oh, that's what she was talking about." And so we can't rely upon that as our modality to engage. It's obvious, but it's really obvious when you're in it. But we can rely upon our vibrance. Vibrance not like in the clothes and not like in the wiggle, but vibrance as in who we are, that everything comes from that real place. As you said, vulnerability. I think the difference is how to be real and vibrant in the pain and the loneliness and the edginess. Of longing for something and wondering whether we'll ever have it.

Yeah.

Um, and becoming resigned and, um, kind of contracted. And how, you know, what environments allow us to be that real? Where can we learn to be our incredible selves? Because it's just, you know, I've seen I've worked with women and seen a room of women in tears listening to one older woman share from herself and honoring this person as an elder and seeing her profound sexuality, seeing that in this aging body, in the wrinkling body, there's a story. And to know that story for ourselves, we all know we may have had children or not had children or grandchildren, Um, but like seeing how this body is the source of that and has been the source of that and can still be the source. So something I really encourage in parents and in grandparents and in people who are not parents or grandparents but want to get a feel of what that can be is this sense of of procreation as an energetic experience, which sounds, again, weird, and it really isn't because that's how babies come about. There's a breathing exercise that's super simple that I could teach you in an hour, and you would start to feel— you would feel like you and your partner had a baby, an energy baby. You would feel it, and you would feel the joy of having that baby. And it, you know, I've— it's something that's replicated in festivals, in sessions. It can easily be done. And when we have that experience in ourselves, it's very different when we go out into the world to meet people, when we know we are a generative, creative organism, and we start to look for that with someone. Because then when it happens, it's happening.

Yeah, it's what we all aspire to, Leora, isn't it?

Totally.

Yeah, I mean, you know, I think that there's— the more that people open themselves up to the idea that we are capable as humans of having incredible pleasure and having such joy and and wonderful vibrant energy, no matter what our age, and release themselves from the concept that all of this is just something that happens when you're young and procreating, or when you're just generally young. The more we can experience this kind of ecstasy, going back to ecstasy, you know, until we're dead, until we're dead, there's, there's no reason why we ever have to stop. But it's, it is all about, as you say, being open being open to the idea that it's possible, being open to being vulnerable, and either alone or with someone else, trusting in each other and in yourself. So, yes. We have come to the end of the show, and there is so much more that we can talk about. I could just talk to you about what it's like to work with Margot and Anne, but that's like a completely different conversation. But anyway, thank you so much for joining me, Yes, Leora Lightwoman. Yeah, we did. I forgot to mention your book, which is still available, Tantra: The Path to Blissful Sex, as well. You can check it out and check out her retreats. You can work with her as an individual, you can work with her in couples, and all the information will be on in the summary.

Thank you so much, Suzanne Noble. Thank you everyone! Thank you.