Episode 99: The Benefits of Exploring BDSM in Later Life

Hi, I'm Suzanne Noble, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. And today we've got someone coming all the way from the Rocky Mountains to speak with us in a cabin in the middle of nowhere— certified sexologist Gigi Wilbur. And welcome to Sex Advice for Seniors.

Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.

Oh, I am very, very excited to talk to you. So Gigi and I have been discussing the fact that, that you have been in the BDSM scene, that you've been into BDSM for most of your adult life. I've dipped in and out of it over my adult life, and I have to say, I actually started to get back into it later on in life because of the opportunity to do more stuff around kind of role-playing and, and, and just the fact I found it's more creative. What's your— yeah, don't you think? What's your BDSM? Just explain to our listeners what it is. And yeah, maybe a bit about how you got into it.

Okay, basically, BDSM is a power play between consenting adults, and basically one person acts as the submissive and the other is the dominant. And you can roleplay many different scenarios, and it involves— it can involve pain, it can involve bondage, but it's not the same as regular pain. I look at it as kind of an erotic pain, which is quite different. And basically, through roleplay, you can really bring out— I kind of think of it as a type of theater. In ancient Greek society, people used to go to theater, and they weren't a passive audience. As the tragedy unfolded, they banged the floor, they pulled their hair out, they beat on their chest and wail. And the Greeks had a word for what this did, and that word is catharsis. And I think BDSM helps us reach catharsis. In our sex-negative culture, we're supposed to stuff away all the negative emotions and not express them. So in BDSM, it gives us a safe environment to express some emotions we're not able to express in real life.

Yeah, it's a really good point. And also, I think when people think about BDSM, unfortunately, Fifty Shades of Grey did a huge disservice to those of us who have either engaged in the lifestyle or part of the lifestyle, in that it suggested that there wasn't always consent involved. And, you know, my experience and the experience of those in the lifestyle is that consent is at the heart of BDSM. And probably one of the things that I find really beneficial about it is it enables those of us who maybe find it difficult to set boundaries in other aspects of our lives. It almost forces us into a position where we really have to know ourselves quite well to be able to let others know what is or is not acceptable behavior. How would you— how do you feel about that?

Yeah, one of the things— I wrote a book called The Dominance Handbook: An Intimate Guide to BDSM. And in the book, I have what I call the BDSM Interest Evaluation for submissives and dominants to fill out. And it explores everything about your interests, about any medical conditions you may have that the dominant needs to be aware of when you're playing. And it's a good form to go through and have informed consent between the Domme and the submissive before you even start playing.

Absolutely. And I think another thing about it is that often it doesn't necessarily have to involve sex. I've been to lots of events where there's no sex, which I find quite odd. But as he said, If you're really into pain, or there's different kinds of endorphins that are released during that, which have, which do create pleasure, right?

Yeah, basically part of the submissive's experience is going through this ordeal, and then flying in subspace. And it's almost like a high. When you get there. And I've had mystical and spiritual experiences when I played the role of a sub and went deep into subspace. So it can be very spiritual in certain ways and enlightening. But the other thing that BDSM does is we live in a culture that's full of stress and we're constantly going into fight or flight mode. Well, when you go into a BDSM subspace, one of the things that happens is your body's releasing a lot of endorphins, which are very healthy for you. Adrenaline rushes are not real healthy. And so it gives you a whole different perspective on life when you practice BDSM on a fairly regular basis.

Yeah, interesting. And how do you think it informs relationships with people that are older? How do you think it supports older people in their relationships?

There's several ways. One is often we can tell someone, "Oh, I trust you." But when you play a BDSM role-playing scene, it's more than just telling someone, "I trust you." It's a living trust that goes much deeper and forms a deeper bond between the players. Yeah. And I think the other thing that's really important is that when you get into BDSM roleplaying scene, there is a bonding and a connection that goes so much deeper than other forms of relationships. And I know that when I combine sex with BDSM, it can become even more powerful. It kind of adds a whole nother dimension to BDSM play.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, for a long period of my life, I really didn't— I really didn't know anything, if I'm really honest, about BDSM. And I just came across somebody who was quite dominant. And I didn't have words to really express what was going on with us until much later when I recognized that part of the reason why I got so excited when we were, when we were together was because he was tapping into that part of my brain that really responded to this kind of roleplay. And it wasn't something I was really aware of until it happened. And then I was like, God, I really like that. I really enjoy the aspect of, of not, of just kind of letting go, you know, of just trusting somebody and giving somebody else the authority to do stuff and the freedom that came with that. And I know, you know, for having been in, in, in this lifestyle or around it for a while, that often it's people that have very complex high-pressure jobs that often end up being really comfortable being submissive, because I suspect it's one of the few times that they can actually just not have to be in control and hand that over to somebody else who can just kind of take over and, and trust that they're not going to do something that they don't want them to do, right?

Yeah. And another aspect of BDSM for me that was very helpful was that I was abused as a child. My father was a minister and had both physical and emotional abuse growing up. And BDSM helped me heal from that by roleplaying and facing some of my fears and having a good dominant that would guide me through the process. I became empowered. My inner child became empowered because for the first time I had safe words. And as a child, there were no safe words.

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, do you think it's a bit of a cliché to say that there's a lot of people within, uh, that are into BDSM that probably are using it as a way to heal some form of trauma?

I think there's some, but there's also a lot of people that have never experienced trauma that are into BDSM. So it's—

Yeah.

But I did want to add that because it can be such a healing force to go through BDSM roleplay with a Domme and You know, you want to also clear with your counseling if you're in counseling that you should resolve those issues through counseling before you bring it into BDSM roleplay.

Yeah, and I, and, you know, I think that's a really important point that you've made is that moving into this without actually recognizing some of the reasons why could actually be quite dangerous, I suspect, if you haven't done that work beforehand. I do sometimes worry when I see people in situations where, anyway, for me, it looks incredibly painful what's going on. And I wonder, you know, like, what's going on with that person that they want to go through that degree of pain? For me, it's so alien. I'm not really into pain except in a very controlled way. So when I see somebody that I think— and they've walked away and they're completely covered in black and blue marks and everything, I just, I do struggle with it. I must admit, I do.

But I do have to say, when I stub my toe, it hurts, and I don't like that. But when I get into erotic pain, It can take you so many different directions and take you flying. And it's just something that's hard to put into words exactly. But when I'm into erotic pain, it amplifies everything, even the sex.

Yeah.

And so sometimes going through the— and I was a pretty heavy player at one point. When I was submissive and I'd walk away with black and blue marks. But when I started getting into it, all of a sudden the pain transformed. It was no longer painful. It took me into a state of ecstasy.

Yeah. I've never reached that place, I have to say.

And there is a process. If someone was just to start wailing on me with no warmup, uh, I wouldn't like that. But by warming up the body, getting it ready, and warmup is going very light at first with a flogger or whatever implements you're using, and then building it up slowly to where it gets heavier and heavier. All of a sudden it's a whole different process. It's not like stepping on your toe. You start flying.

No, no. And when I, when I was first involved in it, I was, I encountered people who were highly skilled at using some of these implements. And so I understood how to kind of take myself through these levels of not painful at all. Feels quite nice, feels really, really, really nice. But subsequent to that, I have to say, because I'm— it's when you're with someone who's inexperienced, and who perhaps has watched too much pornography, it can be really, really horrible. And, and, and I always ask people like yourself, you know, okay, you're kind of keen to explore, you're an older person, perhaps you've had these fantasies going on for ages, and you want to actually start playing out some of this stuff. What's your advice for getting started?

I think one thing is join a BDSM group. There's a lot of local ones all over. And you don't have to go into it blind. There's a lot of experienced players that love to share information. The other thing I wrote, The Dominance Handbook: An Intimate Guide to BDSM. Which lays out step by step how to play and how to do negotiations and how to— there's a lot in a scene that you don't see at the surface. A lot goes into it before the scene even takes place. So I go through all the steps to take to play safely, both physically, physical safety and psychological safety.

Yeah, super, super important. And, and I know that some of the dommes that I've— that I'm friends with get very, very upset sometimes when they go into a scene and it's clear that somebody hasn't really read your book. And also, you know, and also really learned what how to do this? Because it, it does come with rules. It's not— it's very structured in my experience. And why would you say that it was more important for— that it can be really useful as an older person? What would you say? What are the reasons for that?

I think part of it is You really want to have good communications between players. It's, it's really required. You have to be specific about what you want to do in a scene and negotiate what will take place and what's off limits. And I think that by going through the BDSM Interest Evaluation, I cover a lot of different activities you can get into. And basically you check off, oh, I'd like to try this, or I'm not sure about this, or I fear this. And then the Domme knows, okay, these are areas we can play in, and these are areas that are off limits for now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and I, I always say as well that, you know, look, until you try some of this stuff, you may not realize realize that you do like it. So there is an aspect to it, I think, of being playful around, around everything. And but also being clear, like, I thought I was gonna go there. Zoe, my, my co-host a few shows earlier, she's, you know, she likes, she likes BDSM. And she was saying, you know, sometimes you think you're going to enjoy something, you've imagined it, maybe fantasized about it. You've decided that you're going to go for it, and then you get in there and you're like, nah, I didn't— this isn't working for me. And it's, and it's about being able to go, stop, you know, I, I thought I was gonna— it's open, it's on your list. Yeah, it was on my list, but actually it's coming off my list now. It's not something that I'm enjoying.

I do have a free copy of the BDSM Interest Evaluation on my website. Along with the instructions— along with the instructions on how to use it. And so if you want to really explore and really get informed consent about all the different activities, use the BDSM Interest Evaluation. And that way you can cover things, and it even goes into medical conditions and As we age, our bodies get a little worn out in spots. And now I've got a bad knee and trying to kneel is just off limits for me now. Yeah, but I can sit and bow. So there's— you want to know these things up front before you get into a scene. So I go, and do you—

Yeah, do you work with couples? How do you work with people that want to explore kink? Like, how, how do you help them?

Well, basically, I go to Burning Man events, and I go to pagan events. Excuse me. And I set up what I call Aphrodite's Temple. And I bring a bunch of play toys and play equipment, and I guide people on how to do an interest evaluation and how to negotiate a scene. And then we kind of supervise the scenes, and that way everybody can play safe. There's people that are experienced that can say, hey, wait a minute, you don't want to do that, that's a little dangerous. Or this is something that you can do that's safe. And so we kind of guide people and teach people. And a lot of local groups will do the same thing. They'll have play parties that are supervised. And you go to a play party, and you've got experienced players that can help you learn. Yeah.

And what about sex workers in this? Because I know that, you know, I'm familiar with couples where perhaps one person really wants to explore this and the other person is not so keen, you know. I think that's pretty common, especially in long-term relationships where you may have decided, you know what, I've been thinking about this for so long. I'm finally going to get up the courage. I'm going to bring it up with my partner. And they're like, ick, not interested at all. What would you say to those people?

I would say there's one or two different directions you can go. You can either give your partner permission to go and find other play partners to play with since you're not interested, or you can— the person that is interested, you can show them some of the what I'd call soft BDSM play, which may not be as intimidating, and say, let's start here and see how that feels for you. Like with bondage, bondage can be a lot of fun, and there's no pain involved at all. And so you can get into different types of play. That aren't as intimidating, so to speak. But the other thing is, when I first got into it, I thought, who would want to beat someone? Or who would want to get beaten? And then I saw the relationships that Doms and subs had. And there's this deep bonding, and I realized, oh, I need to look deeper into this. And see if there is something good here. And I discovered, yeah, yes, the bonding and the connection. It's, it's a very deep, special connection you have in the BDSM relationship.

Yeah, and I, and, and for me, you know, like I said, I didn't have the vernacular around BDSM when I first started exploring just generally some of my fantasies and, and thinking about what I wanted to do sexually. And some of the stuff that I found, oh, this is interesting, that, you know, back then I wouldn't have classified as BDSM, was like wearing a blindfold, for instance, or having my— or, you know, which, which is obviously part of the, you know, the BDSM lexicon of stuff that you can do. And also little, like, you know, look, furry handcuffs, handcuffs, whatever you want, tying, rope tying, all that sort of thing. You know, there's a lot of ways that you can do this that don't involve any pain at all, but, but may involve, for instance, removing some sense, right? Whether it's your eyes or whether it's restraints or things like that, which for me just kind of adds it kind of just ratchets it up, the other senses, so that everything just gets heightened, as you say. So it doesn't necessarily always have to involve pain. It can just involve removing senses. And that in itself can just change the dynamic of your encounters with people.

And you touched on something earlier that's another dynamic. It's the concept of people exchanging power, where one person takes all the power and the other has to perform for the person in power. And that can involve no pain at all. It can involve doing activities. I find children's games are great for BDSM if you put in a little kinky twist.

For example?

Oh, there's musical chairs where if you're in a group setting, that can be a lot of fun because the person that gets left out from having a chair gets punished. And one version that's a little more X-rated We put dildos in each of the chairs that are suction, the suction-capped ones, and they have to sit on the dildo. So you can put all kinds of kinky twists into the children's games. Another one's hide and seek.

And, um, oh, that's a good one. Yeah.

So children's games.

What happens when they get discovered, need I ask?

Oh, depends how you want to define your game. There can be many different things. One would be, I've done humiliation scenes where the person that gets caught with their pants down, so to speak, has to tell something that's been a deep dark secret in their life. And that can be very psychologically challenging.

Very, very. Yeah, very. Well, Zoe always used to say, because Zoe, Zoe liked to do things like, again, these are small things, but just going to a restaurant with her partner. And before she— and she had to ask permission every time she took a bite of food. So she had to put you know, to stab the food, look at her partner. If he said yes, that's fine, then she could eat the food. And if he said no, then she had to kind of put it down and wait. And, you know, so there's, there's so many different ways that you can do this. I suppose that, look, the bottom line with it all for me is that it's creative. It's, it's taking sex beyond kind of just straightforward penetration. And it's around creating stories around it, whether whether it's playing games, whether it's, you know, doctors and nurses, whatever it happens to be. It's about, it's about stepping into the shoes of another person, which can, for some people, I think they really do struggle to, to stimulate their imagination in a way that involves some sort of pleasure or sexual activity. And other people, I think, are so liberated by it. And the people that I've met that were really creative with it, for me, it was— that was just such a— always such a great experience, because I know that I knew that I'd be walking into kind of almost like my own little movie, really, you know.

Yeah. And another game that BDSM doesn't always have to be about pain, it can be about pleasure. And one, yeah. Physical pleasure with a little bit of psychological distress, maybe. With the toy industry, there's amazing toys, vibrating dildos and stuff. And I know of many people that have used that, and the Domme would control when the vibrator would go off, and they'd go out in a public setting. And then all of a sudden, ooh. Yeah.

And also, you know, the other side of it is things like the tease, using feathers, using scratching devices, all of the— again, it's around how do you manifest all these different sensations? And you said at the very beginning of this conversation about, you know, when pain can go into the space. But for me, light touching can also go into like a very endorphin-filled space. Just, you know, using feathers over a significant period of time really kind of lights up my skin. Similarly, like pinwheels and, and stuff like that. So there's, there's so many different ways that you can explore BDSM beyond what we think about as just kind of dom/sub or just around pain, pain, pleasure. I think anything, as you said, I think probably at the very beginning, which explained it to me best, is it's where there is some sort of power dynamic ultimately, isn't there? It's— there's somebody's in control and somebody's not in control, and you can flip that back and forth. You can switch back and forth. It doesn't necessarily always have to be the same person, but there's some aspect of that dynamic going on.

Yeah. And I'm a switch. I mean, there's times when I'm dominant, and there's times when I play with someone that's submissive. And yeah, I think it's fun to explore different roles. There was a time in BDSM, and in this country anyway, where switching was kind of frowned upon. You either had to be a Dom or submissive, but things have opened up now.

Yeah, no, I think that's true. Well, I think a lot more people are comfortable saying that they're switchy and than they used to be. I always think I'm quite subby, but then again, I know that I do things that are also quite Dommy. So I think, you know, I don't— I prefer probably not to label myself too much, just just kind of be clear about what I enjoy. And yeah, and, and, and, and help people to appreciate that this doesn't have to be on the freaky end of any sort of relationship, that, that even a relatively, you know, what I would say vanilla, as they like to call it, like vanilla, any kind of relationship can benefit from exploring all of this to see what you enjoy. I don't, you know, I don't think we need to suggest that it's only that you have to be especially kinky or have some specific predilection. Anybody, anybody can explore this kind of stuff as long as it's all consensual.

Another benefit that I find, and you kind of touched on this, is that in BDSM, you learn how to communicate very specifically your desires and needs. And then a lot of vanilla couples, they don't talk about sex ahead of time, they just jump in and do it. And especially for a lot of women in our culture, they're not really getting good sex, because there's no communication. And one of the things I found is that once you get into BDSM, it kind of paves the way for better communication for vanilla sex.

Yeah, just, I think, just better communication overall, frankly. So here's to BDSM. Here's to everybody going out and checking it out. And now that I know that you've got a book and a list that people can access of their interests, we can post that on the Sex Advice for Seniors page. Which would be great. It has been so fascinating to talk to you. And I hope you'll come back and we can explore this further. That'd be super fun.

Oh, I'd love to come back. And like I say, I've got a lot of expertise in both BDSM and in sexology, how to have better sex, and even into spiritual sexuality.

Well, that's a conversation for another time.

Yeah, I've been studying tantric sex and Taoism, and there's ways you can form a deeper partnership. And especially for older people where sex has kind of become too routine, you can spice it up many different ways. BDSM is especially one good way to spice up your sex life.

Absolutely, absolutely. We're all in favor of spicing up your sex life. Thanks very much for coming on the show.

Thanks for having me. It's been great.