Exploring Open Monogamy: A New Perspective

This week's episode has been sponsored by Oh My Bod, shifting the evolution of pleasure. Hi, this is Suzanne Noble, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors, and today I am speaking with Someone all the way in Los Angeles. I know every week I feel like, where are you this week? You know, I wish I was in Los Angeles. I was in New York a couple of weeks ago, actually meeting some podcast guests, which is super fun. But today I'm talking to somebody in Los Angeles, Dr. Tammy Nelson. She's a sex and relationship expert. She's a speaker. She's an author and licensed psychotherapist working with individuals and couples. I think like so many of my guests, feels like I'm the only one that's never done a TED Talk. But anyway, just saying, I mean, I, I'd love to do one, but everyone else seems to do one. Uh, she focuses on helping people of all ages find love, healing, and passion. And she's also the founder and executive director of the Integrative Sex Therapy Institute. And she's been in practice for over 30 years. You don't look old enough, Tammy. And teaches, um, several universities. And she also hosts her own podcast called The Trouble with Sex. But today I wanted to talk to her about a book that she's written with a very curious title, which intrigued me because it sounded like two words that should never have been put together, called Open Monogamy. Open Monogamy. So welcome, Tammy, to Sex Advice for Seniors.

Thank you, Suzanne Noble. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

And listen, what inspired you to write Open Monogamy?

Well, to be honest, my— one of my other books, The New Monogamy, which is redefining your relationship after infidelity, was about how to sort of draw a line in the sand after you had a crisis in your relationship, like a trauma or a betrayal, and how to rewrite the agreement, you know, like reboot your relationship or your marriage, your commitment, and how to be really conscious about what you define as monogamy. What does it really mean to be committed? And, and this time to do it differently, not the way maybe your parents did it, or your grandparents, or your church, or, you know, this is not— this is a time in the world where you don't have to do your grandmother's monogamy. Like, you could pretty much do it how you want to do it. And if you're going to make your relationship work, particularly after a crisis, you really do have to be transparent about it. So monogamy is defined not so much as like morality anymore, but more around integrity and transparency and honesty. And so, so many people wrote to me and they were like, well, do we have to have an affair to do that? That seems like everybody should do that. And maybe proactively, preventatively. And so open monogamy is really for anyone who wants to have a conversation about what their relationship commitment might look like. It could be really traditional closed monogamy, but monogamy is not binary. It's not like, oh, we're going to be closed traditional grandma's monogamy, whatever.

Yeah.

Um, all the way to wide open polyamorous, everybody's going to sleep in the same house, we're going to have multiple partnerships. Like, it's not one or the other. There's a lot of gray areas in between. So open monogamy is really about how to talk to each other about our changing developmental lives and how that might shift over time.

Yeah. Why do you think that's timely at the moment?

Well, I think there's a lot of expectation, sort of an implicit expectation of what a relationship is supposed to be like. But we have this explicit expectation sort of around gender roles. And, you know, like women are supposed to go through menopause and then fall off a cliff and never want sex anymore. And like, all these things that aren't necessarily true. And so we're confronting a lot of what we thought was true in relationships. Like, people are having sex well into their 80s now. And actually, women get bored much quicker than men in monogamous sexual relationships. Like, there's a lot of scripts in our head that we're challenging today. So I think if we're going to stay in long-term committed partnerships, or even if we're going to start dating, It's really important to have this kind of conversation. You know this better than anyone. I mean, we talk the least about sex to the person we're actually having sex with. So this is really about having open conversations. That's the open part.

Yeah, and I think that, you know, as, as you've said as well, that monogamy, it's, it's on a continuum, right? And the longer that you're with somebody, especially with the changes that our bodies go through, and sometimes at this later stage of life, behave, the more what we seek out of relationships may equally change with that. As you acknowledge, women get— sometimes get bored in monogamous relationships, and sometimes the solution to that is, you know, cheating or opening up your relationship or doing something. But what that actually looks like in practice and then what it feels like in reality can be quite different, you know, I mean, I'm speaking personally. I always speak personally. Everybody knows, right? I'm in, I'm just going to be really honest here. So everybody knows that my situation is I'm in this thing called, I call it a situationship, right? So it's not, it's not, it's a, it's a fairly, in my view, it's a fairly casual relationship. That's been going on every weekend for a couple of years now. And it's mainly just around sex. Doesn't— it doesn't— it doesn't get too blurry around the edges, right? But every once in a while it gets a little blurry around the edges. And recently I spent a week with this person in New York, which my friends decided meant that this was no longer a situationship. This is now something else, right? In my head, in my head, it's still a situationship. It just so happened that I had a free place to stay in New York and this person had some business to attend to there. And so it was convenient for him to just piggyback on my trip for a short period of time. I was there for a longer period of time, but in practice, What that's meant is I, I'm starting to get the feeling that something shifted in that period of time because we were together for a much longer period of time than we usually spend, right? And it's like, okay, but now we've kind of gone back to the same thing we did before, but I've noticed that something has slightly shifted. And I do think that maybe I need to talk about this, right, with, with, with him, because, you know, it's like, now what is this? Now what is this? Is— are we still in the same thing we were before? Because I was good with that. Are we in this new thing? Because I'm not really looking for a partner, to be honest. So, you know, it's— but of course, these subtle shifts that go on in relationships Sometimes you just let them, you just let them go, right? And then 6 months down the line, you're like, what the fuck is going on? And I think that's where the communication thing comes in. But I do find even myself being the bold woman that I am, I do find these conversations quite scary if I'm really honest.

Yeah, I mean, that makes sense. It can be scary to to try to identify, like, where are we, and label it and put it in a, put it in a box. And because once you say it is one thing, then it immediately implies it's not another thing.

Yeah.

And giving it a label can sometimes be scary. And, and just confronting, like, where are we? Who are we now? What are we doing? Can feel kind of restrictive too. It's like, well, can't we just like play it by ear and go with the flow. And it sounds like an amazing relationship, actually.

I was really good with it.

I mean, it sounds like it's still pretty good, like weekends and occasional trips to New York. Like, how bad can it be? So, you know, and not to like judge your relationship, but it sounds like it's, it's a non-traditional model of partnership that actually works for a lot of women. So I had the opposite. We, for many years, we had a living apart together relationship. My husband was on the East Coast of the U.S. taking care of his mom who was dying, and, um, and I was in LA. And so we, you know, he was over there, I was here. We spent a lot of time living apart, but we were still together together.

Yeah.

And then when his mom passed and he was here full time, suddenly we're both working out of our out of our home and he's constantly here. We're not living apart, we're living together all the time. It was a huge shift in our relationship that was, you know, it was hard to get used to. So do we talk about that? Do I tell him to move out? Do I get my own place? Do I get a boyfriend that I can go see in New York every once in a while? You know, those are the things like you can have the conversations. Doesn't necessarily mean you need a non-traditional partnership, But I do think the more transparent you are, the more the potential for problems and betrayal are decreased because you're more transparent about what your expectations are.

Yeah, yeah. And I think that, you know, it's like you said, it's when, it's when things shift. You know, we don't, we don't live together either, obviously. But it's when, it's when those things shift that often you need to have, you need to have those conversations. Otherwise it's very easy, I find, to get quite resentful and to think, what are you suddenly doing here? You were supposed to be living in that crazy city that I love visiting from time to time. Now, what am I, how am I going to get over there? Because You're not there anymore. And, and yeah, and I think that, you know, I think one of the things around kind of gender equality and, and, and how we are often working till later in life and all of these kind of things can inform all of this because, you know, if a guy retires, his partner's still working or, you know, Subtle shifts can take place that just, if you don't deal with them, what I'm hearing is if you don't deal with them when they're happening, that's when things can go awry.

Well, I mean, if you think about your monogamy continuum, you know, as sort of a continuum that you can go back and forth on, it's not saying that if you feel like you are getting bored or you want more adventure or more novelty, doesn't necessarily mean you have to invite the neighbor over to have sex with. You could just talk about that fantasy that you have, and you could talk about the fantasy for the rest of your lives together, and that might be enough erotic energy that the two of you are sort of opening up about. And yeah, you know, I think you're thinking of opening your relationship or changing your relationship at all, you should have what I call a a what-if conversation for a long time. You know, what if we did this? And what if we did that? And what's the benefit? And how could this be good? And what would be bad about it? And what if you did move to New York? And what if we did invite the neighbor over? And what if we did go to the sex club? And what if we did blah blah blah? You know, like, whatever it is. Yeah, it goes better the more you talk about the potential and the longer you talk about it than instead of jumping in, because I think we assume we know what our partner is saying. Like, If they say, oh, I really would like to watch pornography together, you might think, oh, I don't like that kind of porn, not understanding what they're actually asking. So to really get clear on, let's talk about what you actually mean so that we're not— we don't freak each other out.

Yeah, and so, you know, with that in mind, how does open monogamy differ from polyamory, for example, or just ethical non-monogamy?

Mm-hmm. Well, I don't like the term ethical non-monogamy, although a lot of people use it. A lot of people do like it because of the— it has this idea of ethical, but I think it implies that, um, some non-monogamy is not ethical, which would be non-consensual non-monogamy, maybe cheating. Cheating, yeah. It implies that monogamy can be ethical or non-ethical. Like, I don't know, it just I don't like the term, but I do understand it and I do get it. I think polyamory means many loves, poly love. So it's more about an emotional connection with other people. But even under that umbrella, you can have a lot of diversity. So some people just like to have some kind of sexual fun or fantasy, or sometimes people like to have a threesome or sex with someone else, but only together. Some people moving up the continuum might want to explore other things, like when they're out of town, but they have like a don't ask, don't tell, I don't care, do what you want, but come home to me. And yeah, yeah, some people are like, you know, I think dating other people, it's not like we're, you know, we're married but we're not dead. We might have feelings for other people at some point, but as long as we're transparent with each other and we don't lie lie, ha, hide, cheat, steal, you know, like that keeps it much more open. And then polyamorous couples can really, you know, have other couples maybe that they care about, that they fool around with together, or that they date separately. That doesn't necessarily interfere with their relationship. A lot of those people say it actually improves their relationship. It's kind of like You know, instead of taking away from, it actually adds to. Yeah, it's hard for, you know, people to, to feel that if they're naturally monogamous. I think some people are just naturally like, I'm okay with one person. Other people are more, you know, are more sort of multitudinous in their, in their relationship life.

Yeah, I mean, some of it I would define, I mean, before all of these terms came into existence many years ago, I would, you know, I would have said that some of this was what I would call swinging, for example. You know, some of it was just, as you acknowledge, just cheating. And there were, you know, and in, and in swinging scenarios, it's fairly typical that couples will meet other couples just to have sex with them and there's not really any emotional content, or, you know, they, they might like them just as people, but they're not, you know, they're not looking to fall in love with them. I agree with you. For me, I struggle with the term polyamorous because for me it means many loves, and it implies there's some emotional depth to the relationship that, you know, some people— I, I find that's a lot of energy, takes a lot of energy to love one person, never mind more than one person. But I find, you know, having sex with somebody doesn't take that much energy. And you can just, you know, you can just walk away and just think that was, that was fun. So for me, poly, when, when people ask me sometimes, like, are you poly? I say, no, I'm not. I'm not poly because I can't, you know, I can barely love one person, much less, much less, more than one person. So I find that difficult. But I think, you know, people do struggle a lot with these terms because they're like, well, what does that actually mean? And in practice, you know, when we, when we say that we want to do this, what does that actually look like? And, and I'm, you know, one of the questions I've got here for couples who are curious but cautious, what are some of those first questions they should ask themselves before thinking about potentially going outside their relationship, whether together or apart?

I think it's a good sort of groundwork conversation to actually talk about what they think these terms mean to them, because I think your point is, well, take Taken that everyone does define it differently, and I think that's the point of open monogamy, you know. Every single— I've been doing this for 35 years, I know it does date me, but every single couple or individual that I've ever worked with has defined what monogamy means to them differently, what has defined what open means, what swinging means, what polyamory means, and everybody does it in their own way. And so I, you know, a lot of people have what I call a monogamy gap in their relationship. So what they want, what they desire, what they're looking for is probably different than what their partner wants. Now that doesn't mean that it's not going to work. It means that, you know, one person is going to want to expand or stretch and the other person is going to want to maintain and keep things closed and might be a little bit more anxious or just settled or whatever, which is fine, right? This is just the how life is. It contracts, it expands, it contracts, it expands. And so those are the conversation points that don't have to be pain points. They can just be like the interesting places in a relationship where we start to define, what does it really mean to you to be monogamous? Does that mean that you never masturbate and you never have a fantasy about anybody else? You never look at pornography? You never say hi to other people on the street? You know, you've You've never contacted your ex on social media. Like, what exactly are we talking about when we talk about monogamy? You might say that you're really traditionally monogamous and the gender norm continuum, but, you know, what are you doing on technology all day? I mean, you can cheat on your partner holding, holding your phone, you know, in bed next to them. So I think the law— the more we talk about what does it mean, even like, what does cheating mean? The more we actually feel connected to our partner because we understand them more and we can be more conscious about our relationships.

Yeah, I think it's a really good point. I mean, you know, what do any of these terms mean and, and what would they look like in practice? And, you know, I think people have a lot of fear when they hear the word open relationship because it it feels like there's a potential to lose the person that you love. I mean, I think that's, that's one of the fears. What are some of the other ones that you see people, you know, feeling in?

Well, I mean, there's always a risk of losing the person that you love, right? So somebody could fall in love with someone else on the bus today. Like, it happens. And there is actually research that shows you're more likely to be attracted to someone when it's forbidden and illicit. And, you know, that's sort of more erotic in some ways. So when your partner says, yeah, do it, you're like, I don't really want to do it. I just like the idea of being naughty. And so there is something to say for, you know, having your partner's blessing. Sort of takes some of the fizz out of it. It could still be exciting, but it, it doesn't have that like I'm sneaking around behind your back, and therefore it adds that element of risk.

Yeah.

Which is just sort of new relationship energy, might not be real.

Yeah, absolutely. Have you seen, just as a complete aside, because it just— this, this show keeps coming up in my head during this whole conversation. Have you seen this series? It's a bit old now, but I only discovered it quite recently called I Love Dick. Have you seen this series?

Yes, I have seen it.

So for those who don't know, I Love Dick is a series where Griffin Dunne plays an academic who goes to Marfa, Texas, to an art institute where he's been invited as a fellow or something similar to that, where Kevin Bacon is running this art institute. And Griffin Dunne's wife develops this fantasy around having sex with Kevin Bacon. To the point where it becomes an obsession. And they, and they both take on, and she starts writing letters to, to, on behalf of Kevin Bacon, which Griffin Dunne comes across, and they both start having sex where they're both fantasizing that she's having sex with Kevin Bacon. In reality, Kevin Bacon, of course, knows nothing about this, any of this, until it becomes very apparent that he does. And, and the show itself. For me, it was so much about, about all of this, about how sometimes we can, we can develop and use this shared fantasy to enhance our own sex life without really anybody getting hurt, right? Providing that we're all in agreement with what's going on, you know, which at the beginning of the show, they're, they're both just getting off on, on imagining having sex with Kevin Bacon until ultimately it transpires that Kevin Bacon doesn't give a shit about this woman. And in fact, he's really quite angry about this whole thing, right? And that's when the reality hits them that, you know, suddenly the fantasy isn't so fun when the real person is involved. And I think often with fantasies, that's the lovely nature of them is that, is that It can be just something between a couple that can be transgressive. It can involve celebrities. It can involve multiple people. It can involve all sorts of things, right? And the brain thinks it's really going on, which is because our brain's fairly naive around this, but it's just fun, you know, and, and yeah, that was, that was all I want to say about that.

Maybe you'll have Kevin Bacon on as a guest.

Oh God, I, I, I quite fancied Kevin Bacon during that show.

This is a note to Kevin Bacon if you're listening, or if anyone knows him.

But you know, I do think that one of the nice things about it was the fact that, as we talked about before, it's, it's when you actually have the courage to kind of go, you know what, I do fancy Kevin Bacon. And imagine Kevin Bacon was with us right now and stuff. I'm never going to meet Kevin Bacon. But I, you know, I could have fun playing around with that idea that I did, whether it was on my own or with somebody else. And I think, you know, the more we, the more we explore these fantasies with our partner, the more they come to understand what You know, what, what gets us going.

Exactly. Exactly.

So, I mean, let's talk about the opposite side, which is, you know, about the jealousy, because jealousy is a huge component of all of this and it does come up. And how can couples really address that without judgment or shame?

Well, what I found is You know, jealousy is sort of a blanket feeling. It's like an umbrella feeling. And if you break it down and get a little bit more granular, I find that it really has 4 parts. There's like time, attention, affection, and sex. So when you feel that feeling, we all know what it feels like. It feels a little threatening. It makes us feel insecure about ourselves. What is it that we're afraid that we're losing or not getting enough of, or that being with someone else is taking away from us. So is it that, you know, you're spending all your time texting this other person, or that you're giving them the attention— excuse me— that you're giving them the attention that I, you know, miss getting from you? Or, you know, you're— I miss holding your hand and snuggling with you at night and and I find out that you're spending the night with this other person and lying in bed naked, and we haven't done that for years? Or is it the actual sex? Like, you'd be surprised, like, most people are not so jealous of the sex. They're jealous that, you know, somebody else is spending the time to send sexy emails to somebody else, or that they're spending a lot of time in their head about thinking about somebody else, fantasizing, texting And so what is it that they really need more of from their partner? Maybe it's not, I want you to stop having sex with other people. Maybe it's, you know, put your phone down during meals, make eye contact with me, tell me you still think I'm beautiful or attractive or handsome. And maybe that's really what we're missing in our relationship. So sometimes it can be a really important part of a conversation to figure out what what's missing for us. And it may not be that I'm not good enough or young enough or handsome enough or whatever. Maybe it really is the beginning of some healing that has to happen in our relationship. Yeah.

I mean, look, first date energy, though, is very intoxicating, you know?

Sure.

And that's just, that's just the way it is when you, when you meet, if you've been with somebody a very long time and then you meet somebody who's just flicking some switches for you. That can be a very intoxicating feeling. Hard. I think it's hard for anybody to deal with that because we all know what it's like, you know, that first time you kiss somebody or the first time somebody expresses an interest in you outside of a relationship where maybe, as you say, you're not getting all the validation that you, that you used to get before. So it is, you know, it is, it is difficult. And, you know, how do you help people unlearn the scripts of, you know, forever, only you, you know, while still honoring love and commitment?

You know, love and commitment mean different things to different people. So I think the conversation of, you know, what What am I appreciating about what's working in our relationship, and what do I need more of? And then, and only then, talking about what do I want to try. So when we have, you know, feelings that come up, a lot of times we talk about what's not working, what our partner's not giving us, what we're not getting enough of. I think, um, you know, the law of the universe is you always get more of what you appreciate. So start with what's working and expand on that. Like, I really appreciated when we, you know, did that roleplay 20 years ago, and you met me in the bar in your raincoat, you know, like, find something that actually works that you want to expand on. And then, and then talk about something new you might want to throw in there. But I think, really, our relationships grow when we appreciate what's working or what has worked in the past, because we, we hear that through our prefrontal lobe instead of reacting with our brainstem, like, what, you're not happy? What did I do? And we don't get as jealous, we don't get as triggered that way, and we can soften into what our partner is looking for.

Are you a fan of weekly gratitude or weekly appreciation sessions?

Look, I can never get enough of appreciation and gratitude. Like, as often as you want to give it to me, bring it on. Like, I am like, I'll listen to it every day. Yeah, bring it on. Sure. Let's do it.

Yeah. I mean, I have a friend and she, you know, it is one of the practices in their relationship is that they show gratitude for each other on a, like, whatever, weekly basis so that even when they've been through some difficult times together, they can still say You know, I appreciated it when you, or I am grateful for, or anything that begins with those words. So we're coming to the end of our little podcast here and looking ahead. What do you think? What do you want readers and listeners to take away from Open Up Monogamy about what it means to love consciously today? What's your big takeaway?

I think the big takeaway is, number one, you can have any kind of relationship agreement that you want as long as it's between the two of you or three of you, however many people are in your relationship. It's between you. You define it. Don't let anybody else tell you how to have a relationship. Don't let, you know, your therapist or your parents or your kids or society tell you what's going to work for you. You can create it. In any way you want, but do it in a way— as long as it's honest and transparent and conscious. This is about a conscious relationship. It's about, um, and it's a practice. It's sort of like yoga or meditation. Like, you really have to practice it on a regular basis, and the practice looks like appreciation. It looks like checking in. It looks like, how are we doing? It looks like, let me be honest. And look, I mean, you know, how much time we got left? Like, we If you want something, now's the time to talk about it with your partner or to create it in your life. And ultimately, you know, take away that integrity is about transparency and not morality.

Very good point. And I would also add, if I may, that kindness plays a massive role in this as well. It's like thinking about, you know, how you can ask for what you want, how you can get the kind of relationship you want whilst being kind to the other, right? Um, because often relationships, conversations boil down to blame and shame and all sorts of other things, and kindness can, you know, go a long way. So Be nice.

Seems so easy, right? Don't be a jerk.

Don't be a jerk. Exactly. Don't be a jerk. Tammy, it has been absolutely fab to talk to you all the way in Los Angeles. I hope you have an absolutely lovely day. I'm gonna go out into the freezing cold where it's horrible.

Well, at least you're going outside. That's a good plus. And you know, Suzanne Noble Noble, if your listeners want I can give them a free ebook, sort of like the, the questions to start your open monogamy agreement, if you want to. Yeah, if they want to write to me, it's Tammy at DrTammyNelson.com and just tell me that they know you, that you're their friends with Suzanne Noble, then I can send that to them.

That'd be awesome. Oh, that'd be great. I will, I will post that. This goes out by Substack and all the other channels. So on Substack, I can actually put a link, so that's good.

Okay, thank you.

Enjoy.

Happy to do that, and thank you so much for having me.

Thank you.