From Style to Sensuality: Sarah Ward on Reclaiming Pleasure and Shedding Shame

This week's episode has been sponsored by Oh My Bod, shifting the evolution of pleasure. Hi, this is Suzanne Noble, and you are listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. One of the things that you probably don't know about me is that roughly every 10 years, I completely change what I'm doing. So I have spent— I have had many different careers over my life, and people are like, oh, have you always been into sex? No, no, it's, you know, this is more of a— this thing that I'm doing is relatively recent. But the reason I say this is because my guest also spent a decade doing something totally different. In her case, she was a wardrobe stylist and she was clothing, you know, all sorts of, I'm sure, very interesting people. I worked with loads of really interesting people when I was an entertainment publicist. That was really fun. And she, you know, helped them to be more confident in their clothes. But now what she does is she helps them to be more confident without their clothes, which I think is really a nice transition from— I had a baby sling company for a while and talking about babies all the time. And then I had a sex toy company after that, when I realized that I was sick of talking about babies and I wanted to talk about fucking. So I completely understand this kind of desire to just completely change what you're doing because it just gets boring after a while. So I'd like to welcome Sarah Ward, who's now She is now a certified sexologist. She's a semantic sex coach like me. She's on Substack. She has— I love reading her posts. And so, yeah, welcome, Sarah.

It's such a thrill to be here with you, Suzanne. Thank you so much. And I could listen to your voice all day. I just want to say, here's a very short but very funny story.

It's on the last Friday I was at a members club anniversary party and was introduced to a woman that I'd never met before through a friend of mine. And after I'd been talking for a while, she said, do you have a podcast? And I went, yeah. And she goes, is it about sex for older people? And I went, yeah. And she goes, oh my God, I've listened to that. I just knew it from your voice. No, I felt almost famous.

Yes, yes, your voice precedes you.

I felt almost— I wanted to be a radio presenter when I was in university, but anyway, I sidetracked into something different. But yeah, let's talk about— I want to talk about one of the things that we— that you said you want to talk about, which was how to ask for what you want in the bedroom. Mm-hmm. Because I get a lot of messages from guys all over the place saying, my wife won't fuck me. And I think that happens a lot at my age, frankly. And yeah, and I wonder what, what do you think that's about?

I don't think it's just your age either. Like, I'm talking to people as well who are saying the same thing, right? I, like you, have a lot of men in my Substack arena, which I love, you know, I love being able to just be a resource for these people that may not have a lot of resources. I mean, I didn't come from a place where I learned these types of things, right? My parents didn't help me in any way. School didn't help me. Purity culture is infused in all of these different areas. And so for us to go in search of it, we're swimming upstream. And there's a lot of information that is just so technique-focused. But that's not really going to help you if you're in a sexless marriage, you know, just like this fancy way to go down on her If she's like, oh my God, don't touch me, like, that's not going to help actually. Like, we need to rewind the clock and, and talk about safety and talk about being able to, like, be comfortable in each other's presence. There's such a big vulnerability piece of being intimate in that way. And that can fade over time. And quite frankly, like, we iterate, we are born into this culture where there's so much conditioning around how taboo it is to have sex, to want sex, to do sex in a way that isn't for procreation purposes. So there's so much that we're having to— like, there's hoops that we have to jump through. And, and then we've got the hormonal piece too, right? Um, in your audience and my audience, like, as we age, our hormones shift. And what happens then, right? So I conducted some research over the summer and people were saying, well, perimenopause is a bitch, menopause is a bitch, there goes her sex drive, right? And I feel like it's so much more complex than that. That feels somewhat reductionistic. So where would you like to go, Suzanne Noble?

Yeah, I mean, I completely agree with you. And I was, when I talk with, you know, doctors like Lauren Stryker and stuff about libido, even she says, look, it's just much more than hormones. I mean, sometimes I wonder if we blame hormones for stuff, and when there's other stuff going on that makes it easy for us to just go, oh, it's my hormones, you know, because I think it's so much more than that. I mean, I do this, you do this, you know, we, we talk about sex all the time, and I know even myself that Sometimes I don't want to say things because of the risk that I might put this person off, or that they might think less of me, or that I'm gonna get rejected. And I'm pretty comfortable in some ways saying what I want in the bedroom, like actually in the moment. Yeah. I've learned it. And I think that's the thing is the first time you do it is fucking scary. And then you realize you didn't die and nobody stabbed you in the head. So you're okay. But it can be really frightening to ask for what you want. I have asked for what I wanted and been rejected as well. So, you know, it's hard.

And I'm curious about that too. And of course, like you're here in the interview capacity, but I'm wondering also right? To, as I sit at your feet, as I'm learning from you too, like, was there like a specific formula that you used? Was there something that you were like, oh, I can duplicate that, like that worked for me? Is there kind of a takeaway that we could try as well in borrowing from your experience of what you've found to be successful?

I mean, I think the thing is that I found that within my marriage, it was really hard. And once I left my marriage and I was engaging with people on a more casual basis, or I was starting to go out with people, it was almost like I had a clean slate. So I could go— it was so easy then because I could go, I really fucked up that bit, so I'm not going to screw that up anymore. I'm going to go, you know, I'm going to make sure that when I meet someone, I'm very clear about the things that I enjoy and I don't enjoy. So if they tell me, nah, that's not really my thing, I can just walk away with very little risk attached to any of that, right? But in a marriage, it's so difficult because somebody said something the other day that I read that I just thought, God, that's so true, which is that sometimes in a long-term relationship, we get to this point, right, where we've had that first flush of romance, those first 3 months where everything's like buzzing, your pheromones are like, you know, going crazy. I call it first date energy. You probably do as well, right? We got that like I just want to eat you up all day long, every day. And then, you know, 3 months, 6 months later, little things creep in that you're like, ah, I don't know if I like that so much, right? But if you don't say anything, you just kind of absorb it until eventually it becomes a little wound that you, a little scratch, right? That you, that you're going, ouch, ouch. Why have I not said anything? And then if, of course, if you carry on doing that and acting in that way, for a considerable amount of time, essentially your whole body starts itching and you're just having the most basic, boring, superficial conversations with your partner about the weather and what you're going to do this weekend and if they want to go for a walk or see a movie. And it just becomes like a really— so I think that's the part that's hard, right? Is going— because at that point, a lot of people my age just decide to leave their relationships. They're like, I'm fucking done with this. I'm out. You know, I'm not getting anything from this. There's no value for me. And I know it's hard if you want to stick with it. It's bloody difficult.

Yes, it is. Yes. And there is something that came up for me as I was listening to you speak that it's this desire is a risk to have something to want something outside of like the vanilla you know, missionary position is risky. And there is like, you're gonna have to step outside of your comfort zone if you're going to be able to get that thing. And I've been thinking a lot about this recently, that we're not going to be able to get the things unless we're able to talk about the things. That feels like the, you know, when you go to the amusement park, like, must be this tall to ride. Like, that is how we pay to play. Like, if I want something transcendent and different and multidisciplinary or kinky or whatever the case might be. Like, unless I'm asking for it, my partner is not able to read my mind. We're not to that point in our human development where we're mind readers, right? Maybe some of us are. So it's got to be a conversation. And one of the tools that I've found to be really useful is a yes, no, maybe checklist where They're great because it's essentially like a thing that lives outside of your body. You can print out a copy. It has all of these potential things that you can do. And it starts, you know, slow and soft, like, are you open to kissing? All the way up to like way more edgy things, like, would you like to go to a sex party with me? You know, like, that's further down the road. But like, there's a thousand steps before you get to that point of like, How does this sound to you? And then there's a column for everything that I want to do is a yes, everything that I don't want to do is a no. And then there's the maybe category, which could turn into a yes in future state. But there was this call that I had done a little while ago with, with some people from my Substack community. And one of the women had said, I filled it out and everything was a no to me. And then I went back and I redid it and I changed a bunch of them to yeses. And the question that I had for her was, Did you do that because of you? Or did you do that in service to somebody else? And she said, oh, it was because of my husband. I thought this is what he would want. And so right there from the beginning, from the get-go, right? Like she knew what she wanted and then she adjusted that. And how often are we contorting ourselves for somebody else? How often are we saying, sure, yes, I would love to do that thing when really, like, it is not something that we are open to. And so my heart hurts, you know, hearing that story from this person in real time and just being able to see that happen, you know.

Yeah, and I also think there's just the kind of the other thing that you can do is just, is just go, oh, you know, I was listening to a Dan Savage podcast the other day, and he was talking about this kinky thing called pegging. And I thought, God, that kind of turns me on a bit, you know. And if the other person went, yeah, pegging, I don't know about that, you know, like, I don't want to do that. So there's always the— or I was speaking to a friend and they were telling me about some kinky thing that they did or something that they did so that it doesn't seem like, even though it is coming from you, it doesn't seem like it's coming from you. It's just like, oh, I'm just kind of— I'm just going to put this out there. And somebody else I spoke to had this coffee cup trick that I thought was quite sweet, which is that they picked a coffee cup that represented, I'm up for it tonight. And the coffee cup went on the countertop in the morning, right? To say like, hey, I'm feeling fruity tonight or today. And if the other person left it there, it meant, yeah, I'm up for it as well. But if they put it back in the cabinet, it went, I don't think so.

Okay.

Okay. I kind of thought that was a bit— it wasn't too passive-aggressive. It felt— it didn't feel too— I kind of liked it as just a way, because I know that so many— I had the opposite problem in my marriage. I had to initiate all the time. Wow. And I got really tired of that. So eventually there were few other factors that caused me to stop having sex, but one of them was the fact that I started to feel really undesirable. I started to feel that my self-esteem was suffering because I, I was always having to initiate. And I think that the coffee cup thing is a very, like, light initiation, right? It's sort of saying, I'm just putting a coffee cup on the counter. Like, anyone can do that. We don't have to We don't have to take a step towards the other. We can just let them know that it's— we're good to go. Right.

I'm open.

Are you?

Yeah.

So I quite, you know, I quite like that little trick. I thought that was fun. But I think, you know, like you said at the— you mentioned it at the beginning when you were talking about the lack of education that you had growing up. Yeah, I think this whole thing about shame, feelings of shame, and, you know, what you were saying about the fact that this woman had just immediately just put no in all the columns. And I wondered how much of that was just about her conditioning, like, good girls don't do stuff like that, right? Yeah.

And I appreciate that we're pulling on that thread too. It does seem as though shame is such a huge peace. And, and what I really like to bring up when I'm talking about shame is that anytime that shame is in the ring, right, anytime that we feel it with us, I deeply believe that it, it's almost like a protector for the goodness and the light and the possible transcendence that's on the other side of it. It is our kind of like the pay to play, like, must be this tall to ride it. In order for us to reach that next level of, you know, mystery and abundance and whatever there is on the other side, like, it's up to us to like meet those parts of ourselves. And these are parts of ourselves that we've been at war with a really long time that we haven't known how to hold. I mean, I got Suzanne Noble Noble, I like, The blanket of shame was over me for decades, for decades, where I— the very things that now that I celebrate about myself, I just felt like I had to confess about myself. I felt like it meant that there was something wrong with me, that I was a woman who had high desire. Like, it didn't seem like other people did. What the fuck was wrong with me? Can I say that word? Anyway, yes. And to be in a religious context where the people that I was speaking to was saying, well, yes, you have to do your penance. Like they were just further embedding the fact that there was something wrong with me. And I don't believe that to be true at all anymore. Right. And so it's such a, hero or heroine's journey in order to see ourselves, to meet those pieces, and to feel the discomfort. And so much of what I think our culture represents is the avoidance of those really difficult feelings. When we are— when we have all of these different types of addictions, right? Shopping addiction, sex addictions, alcohol, drug, narcotic use, whatever the case might be, choose your own adventure. But there's so much of that that we are doing, picking up our phones instead of feeling the things that are there to be felt. When really the magic, it's so simple, is that if you can sit with that feeling of shame and feel it, like the body has a cycle of like 90 seconds to 2 minutes, like that's how long it takes a feeling to cycle through the body. And if you let it complete, it will actually just materialize. It will go away on its own. And so often it can be terrifying to sit with those feelings. And so we avoid them. And in the avoidance of them, it actually compounds, right? Like now there's a new shame cycle and a new shame cycle, right? And so it sounds so simplistic, but really, like, if you're willing to feel your feelings, like everything you want is on the other side of that. So of course, I'm sure it's a little bit more complex than that. But if we can take away that one thing, like, all right, I can sit with my undesirability. I can sit with my low self-esteem. I can sit with the fact that I'm worried that my partner does not desire me anymore. I think that that's an experience that every single one of us has had. I have it also, where if I haven't had sex with my partner in a little while, it's like, Oh my God, you know, it starts to be something about me as opposed to just the logistics of modern living. And you can't always fit it in.

Yeah. And I think also, you know, I go through the same thing. It's like I just, I, a lot of it just boils down to trust. And, you know, if you've been, if you've been in a relationship where you've been dumped or you're, you know, you've been cheated on or you've learned how to mistrust, you know, you haven't trusted someone. It's so easy to fall into those little patterns because it's familiar. It's like, oh yeah, here we go again, another untrustworthy asshole. He's probably cheating on me right now. But one of the things that somebody said to me last week that I really liked and I think really applies here is that Every time you step out of your comfort zone, your comfort zone becomes bigger. And I just thought, oh, that was such a nice way of putting it, because often we think that stepping outside of our comfort zone, which is about fear and about, you know, risk and all that kind of stuff, and somehow it's going to be just terrifying. But of course, once we realize, once we've done it, Hey, that wasn't so bad. Nothing terrible happened. Then our comfort zone becomes larger. So then we have less things to be afraid of. And I thought that was a really nice way of thinking about stepping outside of our comfort zone rather than thinking about it as just fear, thinking, God, I could just make my comfort zone bigger if I just did that little thing, just that one little thing. And then I'd have a little bigger comfort zone.

And along those lines, I think about how, you know, there's this kind of glass ceiling that we talk about, right? Like, especially as women, we're talking about, oh, there's this glass ceiling, and this is how far you can go. This is how successful you can be. I deeply believe that we have a pleasure ceiling as well of like, well, this is all there is, wah wah, you know, this is what marriage is going to be. We're just going to have sex twice a year and call it good. Like, it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. But we've taken this cultural script in and we've received that. So in the realm of like expanding the comfort zones by asking for what it is that we want, and it can be as simple as like, I have a desire, right? Can I share that with you? And if it feels like it's a more taboo desire, you know, talking about kind of like what you were saying, oh, I heard on Dan Savage's podcast, or I was reading in this book by Esther Perel, and what do you think about that, right? And I've totally done that kind of like low, low ball to just see like, will he catch it? Will he pick up on it? And sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. And it may be that actually like scheduling a conversation as opposed to just talking about it when you're around the house or on a date, that might give everybody a little bit more capacity to be able to show up for it so that you can say, hey, there's something I'd really like to talk to you about. No, don't panic. Like, we're okay. I just want you to know that we're totally fine. That way we're establishing a sense of safety together so that the other person isn't automatically like on the defense and shutting down. And a lot of what I'm doing with clients is, and what I'm writing about is nervous system work and cultivating this sense of safety. So if we can be a safe person for ourselves, if we can be a safe person for the other, then this is a great way for everybody to just feel like they can, like, let their guard down a little bit. So scheduling that appointment and then just being able to talk about it and, and, and leading with things like, I feel, as opposed to like, this always happens whenever this happens, you know, like, I have been seeing you do this all the time. And then that we're into accusational ways of being as opposed to like this is a feeling that I have, this is a desire that I have. What does that bring up in you? Could you meet me there? And maybe they won't be able to. And that's part of the risk, right? I do think that a lot of people don't even bring it up because they're too afraid to let that go. And so they dwell in this realm of possibility, but then they become really disenfranchised because of It's like, well, this might never be a thing, but wouldn't you like to know this might never be a thing earlier? That way you can make a decision about whether you want to continue to pursue this relationship.

Well, exactly. I mean, the earlier in a relationship you can discuss all these things, I always think the better, because that's good to just be— it's just going to open up your relationship in ways that you could possibly never have imagined. And so I always think that at the beginning, it's this, you've got this whole, you know, book of desires, and you might as well just put them out there because you just, you've just met this person. And if they say no, no, I'm, you know, like I've met so many men, for example, especially of my age, who want to be submissive. They just, you know, they're, they've been in powerful jobs, or they're just used to being in control all the time. And they just want to, they just want to let all that go. And they want a woman that just tells them what to do, and they really get off on that, right? They just want to just like release all of that stuff about being in control, and that's just so not my thing. And so as soon as somebody asked me like, oh, you know, you seem like somebody who might be interested in that, I'm like, nah, not me, babe. That's not me. Like, I know some chicks I can introduce you to, but not me. That's not going to be me. And I feel so good saying that because I just know, like, we can be friends or we could do something else, but that's not, you know, that's not gonna work, right? And so I always think, yeah, just like put it out. I always ask actually at the beginning, like, what are you into, right? Nor a lot— and again, the funny thing is we talk about this like we've talked about women predominantly, but there's a lot of men as well who haven't got a clue what they're into. Because they've been functioning with their dick the whole time, and that's it. And then all of a sudden they realize they've got lots of other erogenous zones they've never explored before. And they're like, wow, I didn't even know this was a thing.

Yeah. And this is actually part of the beauty of the erotic blueprints, which you were asking me about as well.

I was going to ask you about that next, but you preempted me. Perfect. Perfect.

See, we're reading. I'm picking up what you're putting down. And the beauty of the erotic blueprints is that essentially there's these 5 different erotic types, ways of being in the world. And it's interesting because, you know, we're talking about it from a bedroom sense, but also it transitions into how we are in the world as well. So I'll just kind of like give your listeners the high level of what they are. There's the energetic who is turned on by the tease, by the distance between, And sometimes that can actually be juicier than the kiss, right? Like the, oh, what will it be like when we finally kiss? There's the sensual who's turned on by having all of their senses activated. So sight, smell, touch, you know, everything altogether. There's the sexual who's very straightforward, who is down to fuck and wants to enjoy nudity and penetration and orgasms. There's the kinky type that is turned on by anything that is considered taboo. And taboo can honestly be having sex with the lights on. Taboo can be having sex more than once a week. Taboo can be having sex that's not associated with procreation. So it doesn't just mean ropes and chains and whips and bondage, right? Like, it can. And then there's the shapeshifter, which is sort of an amalgamation of all of those types together. And the thing that is really interesting is that if you pick up a Cosmo magazine or Men's Health or GQ, Everything is very sexual. It's very straightforward sexual. And what I find with people is that that's not necessarily who they are. I'll often work with men who are more energetic types and they feel maybe a little bit misunderstood because it's like, but what do you mean you're not just like down to fuck right now? Like, I thought that that's what men wanted all the time.

And so we have these scripts.

That we have accepted that aren't necessarily true. And so for us to expand outside of just the sexual erotic blueprint and to realize what it is that we might be, and then be able to expand into that as well, can be really deeply freeing. And also, like you were saying about the erogenous zones, what women are telling me until the cows come home is that they want more foreplay. They want the rest of their body activated before you could go for the goods, right? And oftentimes, like, sex is kind of a— it can be an accelerated process. And really, women are wanting to slow the fuck down. They really want, you know, like, and we know this because you and I, we work in this realm. And so we do all the reading and the research and we're talking to people all the time. But the— I mean, men can turn things on really fast. And for a woman to reach peak engorgement, which is the precursor for having an orgasm, that takes 30, 45 minutes, maybe longer. I've talked to some women that are like, 2 hours, you know, so it varies. And then I've talked to other women who are like, Sarah doesn't know what she's talking about, because it takes me 2 minutes to come. But it's a very different story when you're alone with your vibrator than when you're with another human being, because it changes everything in your physiology.

Yeah, and I mean, those women that say it takes me 2 minutes to come, I'm like, really? Because that seems unusual. But, you know, and I always feel that there's some— there's always, with some women I've spoken to, there seems to be some sort of competition to go on that, you know, oh yeah, it didn't take me long at all, you know. And I'm like, no, it takes me ages, man. It takes me, right, you know, like I'm not, I'm not young anymore. Used to be quicker, but now it's slower. But, but I mean, I think the good thing about being an older person again is that for most guys, they don't have, you know, their recovery period can be quite long. So for them, if they've got a very long recovery period, right, then they want to maximize the experience because they know if they have an orgasm, like, they're unlikely to have one immediately afterwards. So you know, they're not 25 anymore. So in a way, I always think that men's sexual energy sometimes as an older man is— becomes more feminine because they're like, ah, this is what you guys were up to. It's like, no, there's no rush here. We're just on a journey. We're just taking— no, we're not in the Maserati. We're just taking like the little driving school car. Whenever we get there, we get there. Yes, yes, that's what I quite— I know lots of women my age like younger men because they like the energy of the— they like that really quite active, very testosterone-fueled fucking energy. But personally, for me, I like the older, chilled, no rush, we're just coasting here for a while, you know.

Totally.

You can meet them on with that energy as a woman, I think, which is good. But yeah, I mean, I think that a lot of people, they don't— as you said, they don't think about— but there are so many different ways to be sexual, and they don't all have to involve penetrative sex at all if they don't want to, you know.

And quite honestly, it's exciting if it's— it— if it looks different as well.

Yeah, absolutely. God, I've completely lost my train of thought.

Well, there's one thing that I was gonna add, actually, along the lines that you were saying. I really liked your driving analogy of like, we're not in the Maserati anymore, we're just going to take the scenic route. And I feel like that's what happens when people are using a vibrator all the time, is it's like like, let's go down the superhighway. And I know how to get there really fast. I can go there 90 miles an hour. So the, you know, the women that are coming in 2 minutes, it doesn't take me 2 minutes. It doesn't take you 2 minutes, right? Like, quite frankly, from a tantric approach, I want to see how slow I can go. I'm not trying to get there fast. It's like, could we savor all of the juiciness of the experience of getting there, as opposed to being like, well, I have the, like, the gold star for getting there as quickly as possible. I just don't think that that's— that's not my goal. And everybody can be different in that.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the benefits of being older is that you, you know, hopefully if the kids have gone and you're not living with a million people, that you can spend the afternoon just doing this without worrying about the clock and worrying about whether or not one of you is going to come or not or whatever. But I think, as you say, unless, you know, they're— as we started talking about at the beginning, it's about taking those first steps, about being comfortable talking about your desires with your partner. And as you know, just to wrap up, you know, one of the ways that, that, that you can do that is the Yes, No, Maybe checklist, which I think is a great one. And I've, I've put examples to that in previous episodes, you know, referring to an episode, a book, something that you read that might have expressed what you were feeling. I tried that one with a partner once. I gave him a book that like was my biggest turn-on book, and he was like— gave it to me after he'd read 20 pages, and he was like, yeah, it's not really my thing. I was like, no, yeah, I didn't think it would be. But yeah, I mean, you know, you don't know unless you, as my mother said, if you don't ask, you don't get. That's what she said. So going back to my mother, you got to ask if you want to get.

And you've got to own it. Also, I feel like before it can even come out of your mouth, it has to be something that you've made peace with, that you have been able to claim and feel like, yes, this is something that, A, I'm worthy as a sexual being of receiving this. And this is like totally normal and appropriate for me to desire this thing. And I believe, and I hope that your readers and listeners will believe that there's somebody out there that they'll be able to find that can meet them there as well.

Yeah. And, and the other thing I was going to say about that is that Sometimes in our head, we, you know, there, there have been people I know that have expressed desires in threesomes and this sort of stuff. But sometimes it's enough for them just to roleplay that with their partner without anybody else being in the room, right? I mean, so you just because you desire something, and the other person isn't really up for it, you could still just with your partner, just roleplay it and have fun and just say, oh, imagine he was right here. And he was like, oh, he's doing all this stuff to me. And he's like, oh yeah, babe, babe. Yeah. That's so good. But you know, it's just two people, right? So I think sometimes that's enough for people. And I think that's the other thing is realize that sometimes there might be some sort of little middle ground where you can meet your partner, where you don't have to go into your total fear zone.

Yes.

And be playful. And you can try these things out in a playful, fun, just imaginative way without doing anything. Imagine we're at a play party now and there's all these people around us having sex, like, and we're looking over there and somebody's doing this, some— but you're just two people together. So It doesn't have to be that scary. I think that's, you know, for me, that's the thing is like, there's ways to make this stuff palatable for people that might be not up for it or willing to try it out. You just go, can we just play around with this for a while? Just you and me. Nobody else is in the room. So, you know, I just, I just thought that's a kind of nice way to end is just go, you know, You can try this stuff out. It doesn't have to be scary. Small baby steps.

Small baby steps. And from the neuroscience part of things, like, the brain doesn't know. Like, if you were, if you were doing a visualization process, the brain can't tell the difference between you actually having a threesome and you just thinking about having a threesome. So you actually get all of the physiological benefits of just talking about it or thinking about it, fantasizing about it without the STI risk, without fucking up a friendship, without ruining your marriage. You know what I'm saying? Look at that. I love it.

Exactly, exactly. And you know, on that basis, we don't have to do anything that where we leave the house. We can have all those fun fantasies just with our partner in the bedroom or the kitchen or the living room or wherever the fuck we want to fuck.

The kitchen table.

Exactly. It's all good. Sarah, it's been so lovely to talk to you. I could talk to you all evening, and I will be pointing people at your Substack. And I think you had a free download you were making available to everybody, which was nice.

Yes, yes, there's several, so come on over. Oh cool, the more the merrier.

Indeed. Lovely to speak to you.

My pleasure.