Navigating Love and Intimacy in Later Life

This week's episode has been sponsored by Oh My Bod, shifting the evolution of pleasure. Hi, this is Suzanne Noble, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. And today, all the way from Los Angeles— I love how all my guests are just spread all over the world. I never know from one show to the next where they're gonna be. Half the time what we're going to talk about, quite frankly. But I like to keep it spontaneous. Show people always remark that it always sounds like they're having— I'm having a dinner conversation with people. And that's the way I like to do it that way. So welcome, Dr. Karen Stewart, to Sex Advice for Seniors. And you are a clinical psychologist. You work a lot with couples. You talk about sex, you talk about dating. I know that your resume is a mile long. And you have clients all over the place, really.

Literally.

Yeah. And I was looking at your website and I was thinking about, okay, what haven't we talked about on this show before? And we started diving into with one of my other guests what happens when people have had a recent mental health diagnosis like ADHD, for example. And I thought that was really interesting because I know that depression is quite common in later life, especially I suspect amongst men who may be struggling with trying to redefine themselves after stopping or slowing down their work and trying to figure out, you know, who they are.

Absolutely. Yeah.

I really want to talk about that and how depression kind of plays into people's sexual relationships.

So I think you're onto a really good point that I think a lot of people forget about, and I'm glad that you made that connection that, you know, if the working mom, you know, we often start in our teens, you know, if not 20s. So for the last, you know, 30, if not 40 years, their identity has been, whether it has been a provider, a worker, whatever they were doing, sometimes that starts fading when you get into, you know, to later years. And if you're fortunate enough to be able to retire, you know, you hit that big wall of, okay, now what? And that can lead to depression, you know, when you have to re-identify yourself and recalibrate who you are at any age is challenging. But when, you know, you're at a different stage in your life, maybe a later stage in life, it is more challenging. So I have witnessed people having these vibrant, amazing lives. And then, you know, whether it's again through retirement or unfortunately through aging or, you know, even more unfortunately through health scares. Depression can become very prevalent with these folks. And basically what that means for your sex life is, you know, it's hard to be depressed and have a great sex life. It's hard to have that desire for your partner, even for yourself when you're not feeling like yourself.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I know also that SSRIs or antidepressants can often lead to erectile dysfunction, which of course don't help.

Oh, it does not help. Well, and, and it's funny, I don't prescribe medication. I'm a clinical psychologist, so I'm not a psychiatrist, but I can definitely speak on medications because probably 80% of my patients are on or have been on an SSRI.

And wow.

It's a very huge, it's huge. I mean, they're everywhere here. I mean, I live in Los Angeles and Beverly Hills area and it's, you know, if you think about the coastal cities in, in the United States, you know, everybody has a shrink and a medication.

So that's just kinda how we do it.

As funny as that is. But yes, you're right about the SSRIs. It's this horrific problem where you go to your doctor, you say, hey, I'm experiencing A, B, and C. I just don't feel like myself. I'm down. I can't sleep, or I'm sleeping too much. It's like, great, let's slap on these two medications. Well, a couple weeks from now, you realize I can't get an erection, or I don't want to have sex, and you have this flat affect. And now your partner's saying, what the hell's going on? You know, you're out, you went to the doctor, what's— why aren't you better? And then it starts this vicious cycle of affected self-esteem. They feel worse about themselves now because not only I need to take a medication to help me and now I can't perform. It's challenging. You know, even they can't perform by themselves even sometimes, which is really challenging because it just, you know, again, kills your self-esteem.

Yeah, completely. I mean, I was with somebody a long time ago and he was prescribed an antidepressant and then he found out he couldn't get it up and then he literally just threw them in the bin. Like, just went, uh, screw this, and just threw them. And I was like, are you sure that's the right thing to do? Surely you need to wean yourself off these. Like, chucking them in the bin because you can't get a hard-on is probably not the best thing and way to remedy this situation. Right?

Yeah, definitely not the best thing. I mean, that's a very nice dramatic picture for a romantic comedy or something, but not recommended medically to just Unless you have taken them for like, say, 2 days, for instance. But if you've been on any medication for any length of time, please just call your doctor and say what you're going to do. I mean, that way they could say, all right, sir, you know what, chuck them in the bin by, you know, Monday, but please give it 3 or 4 days. So, yes, I recommend that.

So as a psychologist, when you see, I mean, I'm shocked by the, by the stats that you just gave me about 80%. I mean, that's really high. And I know that. They are prescribed— antidepressants are prescribed, I guess, with more frequency than they are in the UK. I don't think— I mean, I'm just guessing, I don't know, but I do know people on antidepressants, but I suspect that number is higher than what we would see in the UK. So what— so here you are, you're an older person, you're feeling down, you've, you know, you're no longer got the job to go to that gave you a sense of purpose. Your wife is wondering what the fuck you're doing 24/7 at home all the time when you used to go out and they never saw you and they had some degree of independence. And now this person is hanging around all the time morose and basically just pissing them off. What do you, just painting that kind of very—

That's a beautiful perky picture. Yes, that's really lovely.

Really flattering picture of people. What do you recommend in those scenarios? Like, what do you, what do you do?

First case, I would say if you're noticing your partner has really declined and like, you know, I love your word morose because that is such a powerful word that you could literally see of saying, I'm picturing this guy kind of ho-hum, like Eeyore from Winnie the Pooh walking around the house. What I suggest, and I know it's so much harder than, you know, easier said than done, but talk to your partner as calmly and nicely without judgment. You know, the worst thing you can do is like, Joe, get off the damn couch. What the hell are you still doing here? You haven't left the house. You haven't changed your clothes in 4 days. Not helpful. Because if somebody's already experiencing some depression, so sit them down, tell them your experience. Like, you know, I gotta be honest. I've noticed you've been a little flat lately. You know, are you okay? You know, you, you haven't changed your clothes in a couple days. You know, can I help you? Give them some softness first. And then maybe, you know, and we can stereotype, we're, we're both women here. Men sometimes have a really difficult time with launching and creating plans for themselves. Themselves. And, you know, if you've had a female partner for many years, it's, you know, I kind of don't know what to do without you. So maybe you need to help make the plans. You know, maybe it's, see, I've noticed this, so what I suggest is, hey, why don't you call that old buddy? You haven't gone bowling in, you know, 2 months. Give them a call, suggest things. If the person's resistant, you know, maybe it is time to say, I got an idea, you know what, I'd like to come to your annual physical with you. You know, let's, let's talk about this. I think it'd be really helpful if I tell your doctors what I've been experiencing because you're a different guy and I'm scared.

Yeah, no, it's a really good point. And I think that for a lot of people having that kind of conversation can be very difficult, you know, because it's sensitive, right? Especially if you've been with somebody that has led this very, as you said before, this really vibrant life and suddenly, you know, they haven't changed their clothes in 3 days and they're starting to smell. And it's not pleasant. And also I think, you know, that with regard to sex, men place so much emphasis on their erections. Absolutely. Yes. And so when they don't have them, it's sort of like, what's going on? What am I going to do now? I mean, talking about sex, is there any way that you try and address that, um, that circumstance?

You know, I talk about that probably at least on a weekly basis with my patients, and that is one of the biggest topics I have because, you know, masculinity and manhood is so associated with erection. So, you know, the folks that are probably the hardest for me to work with are the people that have experienced a huge medical illness, whether they've had cancer and they literally can't perform anymore. You know, basically it's reprogramming and it's retraining the brain on how to perform sexually what is desirable and how our bodies and lives evolve. You know, for instance, if a couple— if the man is unable to have erections, let's just say ever again, you know, in those extreme cases of medical circumstances, there are plenty of different ways you can please each other without an erection. You know, there's plenty of things, you know, he could do to his female partner, they can, you know, screw around, they can— there's plenty of things. Maybe this is a time, and people always kind of give you this shocked look like, have you guys experimented with toys before? You know, have you done different things together? You know, sometimes even just an erotic massage for a man would be very comfortable and helpful. But if they're in a long-term relationship, even a short-term relationship for that matter, it is training both of them to respect and understand this difference. Because nothing is worse and nothing is a bigger erection killer than the judgment of what the hell's wrong with you. And I hear that from 30-year-olds up to 70-year-olds, and it's cringy because they clearly want the erection, they're doing their best. If they can't have the erection, okay, clearly we're not going to have penetrative sex right now. But then it's this horrendous vicious cycle of, okay, now I have proof that there's something wrong with me. Now she's upset with me. And right down the rabbit hole we go.

Yeah. And I hear a lot from men that sometimes their partner thinks that their lack of erectile function is down to them not feeling attracted to them anymore. Right? So they think that this thing is not behaving because when they see their partner, they're not getting all excited, you know, whereas their brain may be getting very excited, but just nothing's happening downstairs. And I think that women sometimes struggle with that. And, you know, I know I do that.

Sure.

When, you know, when you're in the middle of something and suddenly it goes, you're like, oh God, what happened? Did something just happen to make that, you know, what's, what's occurring right now? And then you realize, no, they just have to go to the toilet.

They ate too much at dinner. They're, they're worried about that meeting they have tomorrow. You know, the baseball game's still on. Sometimes it's not that deep.

Mostly it's not that deep. Mostly it's not that deep. And it's worth reminding women that mostly it's not that deep, right?

And what I like to remind, especially when I'm in couples work, or, you know, even if I have an individual female, if in couples work, it's way easier because they're both there. And if she's like, well, I don't think he's attracted to me, you know, I used to walk by and he saw half a boob and he was hard for the next hour. Like, okay, well, things change. I said, why do I want you to answer me honestly? Do you think this man doesn't want to have an erection? Do you think he doesn't want to have sex? He was the one, you know, if he proposed this idea to you, He wants to be there. Things happen, life happens, and I always give those examples. I said, well, you know, as, as we as females get very distracted during sex, so do men. And if, you know, all of a sudden, you could be on the verge of orgasm, and then you think, shit, did I call that guy back? Oh my God, wait, oh my God, did I schedule the babysitter? Are my kids gonna be home alone tomorrow? And now you've completely forgot you're having sex, and you're not going to get anywhere near that. Men do the exact same thing. And once the erection goes, yes, you can recover. But now there's all the emotional stuff attached to it.

Yeah, for sure. I think that's really— that's true. Like, we all do get distracted. I can't stand music with lyrics personally. Like, as soon as I—

that's funny you mentioned that, because I start singing the song in my head.

I honestly just— if anybody puts on music with lyrics, I just— if I know that tune, I'm like waiting for the chorus. I'm just I'm like, I'm never gonna come now. I'm never gonna come. This is not feeling good anymore.

Right.

So look, there are so many different things that can distract us and, and it's worth reminding us ourselves about that. And I think, you know, going back to this whole thing about medication, there are— I've spoken to you, to doctors, and they're like, look, there are SSRIs that don't impact erectile function like some other ones do. So I think also we have to know that Some drugs are really bad when it comes to getting erections, and some drugs have less of an effect. So if getting an erection is really important to you, then find drugs that, that were going to support that desire. Yes. Not one, you're going to take it away, right?

Completely agree with that. And that's one thing I do tell people, because if you tell a doctor without mentioning, you know, we're great at complaining. But we don't tell them what we want. So when a man goes in and says, look, I've been in, you know, I quit my job 6 months ago. My wife's still working. So honestly, I'm sitting home all day. I'm depressed. I'm bored. I've gained 10 pounds. I, you know, feel like I'm worthless. If you just put pause on that, the doctor's going to say, oh, okay, great. I'm going to prescribe you A, B, and C. And they're not saying, but by the way, you know, and a lot of medical doctors don't think about that second step, which is where, you know, frankly, my work comes in. Tell them what you want. Tell them you still, you know, I'm happy to report I still have an active sex life with my wife. You know, we try to, you know, be together, you know, X amount of times. I still want to be able to do this because when you tell your doctor what you need and want, they can prescribe medications. You know, there's a couple combinations that are quite popular over here that have, you know, they're excellent SSRIs that really help with the depression, but they make people have the flattest affect. You know, the first week or so you might feel like you're a zombie. But then there's another medication they can prescribe that will kind of almost pull you back up to normality. So it just, it balances the negative side effects. So I would highly recommend to anybody, you know, who's listening or thinking about it, that tell them what you want out of it.

And it's a really good point about— I just came back from a 2-day event, which was about mainly about healthcare and aging and mainly, it was, it was quite depressing, actually, about, about, you know, about how we need to support older people and all the ways that we do this. And it's, it was about the kind of silver economy, but because it was funded mainly by drug companies, the emphasis was mainly on health, healthcare, and not on sex. There was nothing about sex, actually. But what came through in one particular conversation, panel discussion, was this need to understand the whole person when you're going to see your doctor in whatever way, you know, whatever kind of doctor you're seeing. Right. And so instead of just addressing the one problem that you might be going for, which is, oh, my blood pressure is very high at the moment and you're going to give me a blood pressure medication that's going to lower it. And that's now going to impact on my erectile function. Right.

Right.

I have to say, okay, What else, other changes do I need to make in my life to be able to, you know, just improve my health, my overall health so that I'm just not reliant on these pharmaceuticals all the time. And it was, and as I was listening to it, I was thinking, well, there's a few little, there's a few issues around that in that, in that idealistic vision that we have of going to the doctor and the doctor is really concerned about our whole being because, hey, mostly they don't give a shit about our whole being, mainly, I hate to say, but they're just there to address the problem. And, but the second thing is that in the UK, when you see your GP, they are told that they have 10 minutes to deal with each patient, right? Like, I don't know how it works in the States, but in the UK it's 10 minutes. So in 10 minutes, you have just got enough time to explain the problem, never mind the scenario around the problem, right? So we've almost got to, when we go into a doctor, like a little script that's going to be really short and it's going to say like—

It's so anxiety-provoking hearing about your medical system. It really is. It's so anxiety-provoking that it's, you know, like, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but you're exactly right. Like if you're coming in, I have high blood pressure, that, right? I mean, describing how you're experiencing that and what you're going through is going to take up probably 5 to 6 minutes of your time. Then he's going to say, I need you to do this and this. We're not even talking about your romantic relationship, your activities. Oh, I like to rock climb. Like, you probably shouldn't do that. Like, nobody talks about all that. And that's so these kind of like, ding, ding. Okay. Your appointments. I'd be like, well, okay. I'll see you again in 5 months when you can get your next appointment.

Absolutely. Yeah. And that's the way it goes. And, you know, when I think about this, it's like you almost have to go in with it, with the, with an agenda, which is very summarized. So that you're like, here's how I'm feeling. This is what I'm doing. This is my life. This is the kind of stuff I like to do. Uh, I still want to have sex with my wife. I want you to consider that because otherwise you're just going to get a drug that deals with a problem. And that may lead to a whole series of other problems that then require you to go back in and say, God, that sorted out that one. But you know, downstairs is not happy about it.

Right. You're in, you're exactly right. And I'll take it even a step further with complaining to doctors is it's a very, very intimidating process to go tell your doctor you're having erectile problems. And I've attended this seminars, you know, similar to any of the conferences that you have where I want to just kind of shout on the rooftops, ask your patients, ask them how they're doing. That question doesn't seem to be, it's in question number 25 out of the, you know, the 28, they're going to ask you which, you know, different, but it's not, nobody talks about the pleasurable parts of life. You know, they focus on, oh, so you eat McDonald's 3 days a week. Oh, we got to cut that out. But, you know, and I'm being silly by saying that, but it's hard to address that with your doctor when your doctor doesn't appear to be interested. And it's really challenging for the person experiencing something that's already, you know, it could be humiliating. It could be uncomfortable. It causes depression, anxiety affects your relationship. Yeah. So it's really challenging to say, hi, uh, basically stranger doctor, by the way, oh, I haven't had an erection in 2 months. So I do encourage patients to be able to talk about these things and almost start with that. And I completely agree with you about the script because, you know, I'll be honest, I take little notes before I see my doctor because there always is that urgency. Maybe you have to, you know, maybe if you're really that uncomfortable to talk about it, you could hand them a little Post-it note. Like, you know, I've been experiencing, you know, heart palpitations, lack of erection, you know, sleepless nights. Truly, because I, it's such a big part of our lives and it's something that should be continuously in our lives. And, you know, a lot of people, you know, don't want to address it.

Yeah. And, and we've been talking a lot about men and about depression and how does all of this stuff, because there are women obviously experiencing very similar things, especially around, you know, when we get into menopause and just feeling perhaps just not very desirable. I know that the hot flashes just didn't make me feel sexy at all while they were in there at their peak. I was just sweating. It's— there's nothing more attractive than your back dripping with sweat while you're sleeping next to somebody. You know, how do you— because I find this is one of the most challenging areas, is that whilst men may initially just go off for the blue pill or, you know, go for the antidepressant and then have to figure out, oh, this didn't, you know, this, this worked for this but didn't work for that. What, what, what do you see happening with women around their mental health?

You know, it's such a good topic because women try to be so strong. And in circles of women, it's much easier to talk about, you know, your menopausal symptoms or your postmenopausal symptoms. I think, you know, in a perfect world, you would, you know, hit the topic on directly, you know, honey, I got to tell you, I have been— I don't know if you've noticed, I've just, I haven't been feeling like myself lately. I just have had, um, you know, I've been sweating. I'm uncomfortable. My sex drive is shit. I just, I wanted you to know that it's nothing about us, but privately, you know, to be able to understand these things, that it's not our faults. It's not our faults that, you know, out of nowhere, your hormones are shifting, changing. You look in the mirror and don't recognize yourself today. You know, our bodies are shifting. Weight is forming in different areas or losing volume in certain other areas. It can be really demoralizing for a lot of women. And I think to be able to just, first of all, get some support when you're dealing with that, find a group of women that you can openly talk about this stuff, talk to your doctor. You know, there are some remedies out there. And for sex life, you know, there's the issue of dryness or lack of desire or, you know, yes, sex becomes really uncomfortable. You know, if you don't have the desire and you don't have the proper lubrication because your body is against you right now. It's a recipe for, you know, not a very fun night.

You know, we can look at all the cliché things, which are not—

I mean, they're excellent, but to buy, you know, lubrications that are appropriate for your body, you know, talk to your doctors about it, you know, to call your gynecologist and say, I'm experiencing this, what do you suggest? But again, it needs to be a topic to be talked about because I feel like so many women suffer in silence because there's almost this— yeah, there's almost this kind of like, I don't know how to put it, and not a stereotype, but just this idea of, well, I have to be strong, I'm fine, fine, but you're not fine. Your body's changing by the hour sometimes.

Yeah, for sure. Well, we've got— we've had some very exciting news. You probably are aware this week that the FDA removed the black box warning from estrogen-related products.

Yes.

Things like vaginal estrogen, for example, which were like a lifesaver for me when I was experiencing dryness and are now just like— they've completely changed everything.

They're just very exciting news. Yes.

They've removed the black box warning from that, which means that a lot of women who thought that it might lead to cancer, that's no longer the case. And, you know, in the majority of circumstances. So that's, I think, you know, hopefully now that that black box warning has been removed, at least doctors will feel more inclined to issue prescriptions for this stuff, which obviously can just transform your sex life. They literally can transform it. And I think when I tell women that mostly they don't know about it because I think the black box warnings put, put them off and they say, oh, I can't have that. That's really bad for you and all of this. So I think that was, that was probably one of the most exciting developments that I've heard about recently.

Well, it's huge because I mean, you know, I've had plenty of jokes with my patients or friends to say, I mean, if menopause hit men, This would've been covered 50 years ago. We would've found a cure, a solution, you know, a magic pill. But you know, a lot of women suffer in silence again. And you're absolutely right that there is that kind of like, oh, TRT's bad for me. I know this, you know, neighbor of a cousin of an uncle, blah, blah, you know, who had, you know, this, there's always, everybody has that obscure story. Well, you know, Sally got breast cancer from that. Like, but did she? You know, no, in all seriousness, I mean, it increased the rate. By like literally some benign percentage of— not benign, but, you know, 7 to 10% out of a million people type thing. But when they're already predisposed to having breast cancer in their families, so, you know, but they have to, you know, the FDA is a very powerful place and they, you know, when we have those people that that X person, you know, had this, they have to put that on there to make sure they don't get in trouble.

Yeah. Well, it is very exciting news. I'm very excited about it myself. And I think that, you know, the more that we remove the stigma around a lot of this stuff, but also understand, you know, I only, again, recently found out about the impact of SSRIs on erectile function and how it wasn't necessarily the same for all SSRIs, that some were better than others. And I think with all of this, it's about knowing that you have a choice. I mean, for a lot of these people, it's about knowing, okay, that didn't work. But this one, this might work, you know, this, this didn't work. And how much you, you know, prioritize your sex life is, of course, very personal. But if you prioritize your sex life, and suddenly you feel flat, and like you have no desire, or— then there are things that you can do about it. I think that's, that's, for me, the main thing is that there, there are professionals like yourself, there are doctors you can go and talk to. If we remove the shame from all of this, then the likely it is we can find a solution to the problem. But if we don't talk about it, then nothing's gonna change.

And you're absolutely right. And, and to go back to the, the SSRIs, if somebody is kind of anti-medication, there are plenty of things you can holistically do. And, you know, I always do ask my patients before they jump to medications, like, okay, so you mentioned you've been really bored lately. Like, well, when is the last time you worked out? I know you didn't, you used to go, you know, biking. Oh, you know what? I just haven't made it on my bike in 3 months. I'm like, well, I've been a little lax with the diet. I've been, you know, I haven't gone to church. I haven't done this. So let's put yourself back, you know, kind of let's hit the reset button, pay attention to what you haven't done and what you are doing now. And let's see if we can get some of those things, you know, again, I love the holistic approach of let's get some exercise every day. You know, even folks that, you know, can you walk to your mailbox and back? Just, can you get some form of, you know, sunshine? It's a little more complicated in England, but to get outside and get that fresh air on your face, you know, just to have a difference, you know, when is the last time you called your friend? When is the last time even you've gone to dinner with somebody? Let's see what, you know, in like a societal type perspective, then let's go to the medication, you know, because, you know, with Western medicine, we throw pills at everything and those are awesome. A lot of them work amazing, but if they work in conjunction with diet and health and exercise and meditation and, you know, tai chi and whatnot, it can greatly help you. And especially for sex life, we don't feel good about ourselves. Like if somebody is a regular exerciser or a regular worker and they're moving their bodies, when they are stagnant, they become stagnant, they become mentally stagnant. So, you know, I always do encourage people to kind of, you know, get out there because it always makes us feel better to, you know, be physical.

No, absolutely. And, you know, there is scientific evidence that exercise does reduce the symptoms of depression, like high intensity Exercise does reduce symptoms of depression. So that's like a real, that's a real thing. And I know a friend of mine took herself after many years off an SSRI because she realized that actually she was just relying on it for everything. You know, it's like this thing is going to make me feel better. And she's, she just thought, I've got to find other ways to feel better that don't make me so reliant on this pill. And one of those ways was just getting back into physical activity and just getting back exercise. So it's a really good point of just what are those other things that you can do in your life that made you feel good? It's something that Esther Perel, she did an exercise that I enjoyed and did with a partner years ago, which was writing on a Post-it note, to, I turn myself on when— Oh, I like that. I turn myself off when— So I turn myself on when wasn't necessarily about sexually turning yourself on, like when I use a vibrator, it could be I turn myself on, speaking personally, when I sing in front of an audience because I'm a singer and I love singing. So I turn myself on when I'm singing in front of an audience. I turn myself off when I spend too much time on social media scrolling and I'm not doing anything that's actually a benefit to me. It's just a massive distraction.

Right.

And each of these kind of— and it was so this kind of thing that you could exchange with your partner so that they became more aware of the things that gave you joy in your life. Because in the circumstance of the person that I did this with, he went back into being a visual artist and he did struggle with depression. But when he was painting and drawing and, and stuff, he was like, he was a totally different guy. Right. So it's about what are those things in your life that give you joy? And they don't necessarily have to be sexual things. They can just be things.

You like, you know, like you said, you're, you're the guy that was a painter, you're a singer, or, you know, the person who's an avid, you know, cyclist or yoga. It's, I think also it has something to do with a little bit of control. You know, it's something I can control. If I can get myself to yoga 3 times a week, that's a place of pride. You know, folks that are, you know, again, the drastic lifestyle changes, you know, like retirement again, or whether it's a choice or it was forced or however it looks. If you don't feel you have control in those situations, it is going to increase your anxiety and depression. So, you know, like for the person, you know, like you said, your painting friend, that if you just choose not to do it, you know, that's not going to be helpful for you. But if you can say, you know what, I'm going to spend 10 minutes tomorrow doing this, or it will increase those endorphins that are so, you know, unfortunately missing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think, you know, going back to the first case study that we sort of suggested of this guy who's retired and he doesn't really know what to do. It's about, you know, it is about finding those things in your life that give you joy, even if it means going out and doing something you've never done before because you've got to find something good to do. 'Cause sitting on the sofa, just chilling isn't gonna really do it for you or your partner.

It's not gonna do it for you, no.

You know, but yeah, I mean, I think that it's sometimes the hardest thing is just getting started.

Absolutely. And you know what, and there's, I don't want to downplay how hard it is to get started because, you know, we're all creatures of habit. You know, if we're not used, and we've also been talking a lot about couples today, but there's also those individuals out there that maybe they don't have their partner anymore. Maybe they've gone through, they're a widow, they're divorced. They've chosen to be single for a while. It's hard to get back out there. You know, and to, you know, to think about that, like, well, my body looks different, or it's a good time to really focus on the things that you value and maybe look back. Like, if my 20-year-old self was sitting here on the couch, what would I go do tonight? Well, I'd go to the bar. Why don't you go to the bar now? You know, is there, is there a local restaurant you want to go to? Is it, have you called your friend? Oh, I like that sporting event. Well, why don't you go watch the sporting event at a local place type thing? Think about what you used to enjoy, because again, we have all, we're all on the grind. You know, whether we love our jobs, love our relationships, that's irrelevant when we just think about the nonstop pace of all of our lives. So, you know, sitting down and relaxing and being able to say, you know, I just, what's going to bring me joy? I love that phrase, you know, what's going to bring me joy. And I like the idea of that exercise of, you know, what's not going to bring me joy.

And yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

And it's, and for me, I really enjoyed that exercise because it was about acknowledging the things that just aren't good for me, right? The things that make me feel bad about myself and that give me— yeah, they, they don't, they, they just don't make me happy. So I think also for me, hearing from my then partner about things that turn him off, um, some of them was about uncontrolled eating and other challenges that he had. And I, and that made me really sensitive also to when I was seeing particular behaviors that I knew were not good behaviors, like to stop him on, like, go, hey, what's going on? You know, like, yeah, like you're, you're, you're going and you're just eating a bunch of shit.

Like, what's happening?

Right.

What's that about? Right. So that's also an act of love too, because you, he told you that that's something that he doesn't like and you're now helping him and supporting with that.

Yeah. Yeah. So I, you know, I, I really love that exercise because it was, yeah, it was didn't feel like there was any blame attached to it. And it was just a way to share with another person the things that give me joy and the things that really piss me off about myself. It just, yeah, it's just more insight. Anyway, Karen, we've reached the end of this one. Thank you. And it's been so great to chat to you and you're probably going to go off and eat some breakfast now. And I'm going to do something like that. I'm gonna chill in front of the sofa and catch up on The Morning Show.

Yeah, a big deal.

Okay. All right.

Thank you, Kim.

Nice to meet you.

Take care.