Open Dialogue: Sex Advice For Seniors

Hi, I'm Allie Eisman with Passport to Pleasure. This is— has been my monthly Substack Live that I've been calling Office Hours. We are now shifting it back to Open Dialogue, which is what I was calling it on Instagram Live. But you know what? I like Substack more than those other platforms, so we're bringing it here. We're keeping it here. And today I'm so excited to be joined by my guest Suzanne Noble from Sex Advice with Seniors. Would you give us just like a brief little intro, or a non-brief intro, about you and all your wonderful things that you're doing?

So I host a weekly podcast that— where I speak with experts like Allie and other experts around sex, dating, um, and sexual health related to anyone really kind of 50, 60 plus to help them improve their intimate and their relationship lives. Um, I don't profess to being an expert myself. I've just slept with a lot of people. And so that's given me some kind of expertise in my way. But people, I like speaking to people with more, you know, more of an academic background so that people don't say she doesn't know what she's talking about.

Well, there's qualitative and there's quantitative research. So I think it's important to have a little bit of both. And I'm going to say, you know, you said I'm not an expert, but I love this quote that's been attributed to one of my inspirations, Esther Perel. I bring it up a lot. I'm gonna butcher it, but it basically says, you know, there's no such thing as an expert. An expert is just somebody, or how does she say it? There's no such thing as an expert. There's just people who've dedicated far more time, effort, and energy into studying one subject than other people, or one idea than other people. So you count.

I say I've done my 10,000 hours in the bedroom. And so that qualifies me. The other day I was with someone and he said to me, 'You make me a little bit nervous because you've obviously got a lot more experience than I do.' But I was like, 'No, there's no reason to be nervous. Chill out.

It's cool.' So yeah, well, I love that honesty. That vulnerability is such a key ingredient for real connective intimate moments. Like, I'm so— I just applaud his bravery for being able to express that in such an intimate vulnerable moment as about to, you know, connect with somebody. It's like That's hot. That is very hot in my book.

And I think that's part of one of the aspects of getting older is acknowledging that our bodies are changing, things are changing for us. And rather than just like running roughshod over them and just saying, we're just gonna ignore all of this and pretend it's not going on. The more we can step into that and say, actually, You know what, it's gonna take me a while to get there, and maybe I'm not going to, and that's good. I'm good with that. It's fine. Or my, you know, in the case of a lot of older men, unreliable erections are a thing. And acknowledging that, you know, let's just have a break. Let's just make some tea if you live in England, and just, you know, and just enjoy just relaxing. So I think it kind of gives you permission to take the pedal off and just be yourself. And the more we can do that at whatever age we happen to be, then the better for everybody. Because, yeah, nobody likes being under pressure.

When I think that pressure, to your point, and it's not just around sex, I see this around relationships. For, for those who don't know, I'm a certified relationship coach and I work with couples, generally couples who are looking to open up their dynamic to explore, you know, consensual non-monogamy, polyamory, or all that sort of a thing. And it's a similar thing that comes up. We have this attachment to this idea of how it's supposed to go, what it's supposed to look like, and anything that deviates from that must mean that something's wrong. Or maybe there's just something new. And what an— if we can just flip that switch, it sounds so simple, but yes, it takes some work because there's a lot of programming going on. But if you can realize like, oh, something's different here, different doesn't mean bad necessarily, something's wrong, something needs to be fixed. It just means something different if we can go, okay, this is happening. I wonder what's here for us. I wonder what new opportunities are here that may be additive to what you've already had or just open up a whole new window of possibility that you weren't even expecting.

Yeah, completely. And one of the aspects I noticed that older people— and again, it doesn't relate to older people, but that's kind of my area of interest— is bringing sex toys, for instance, into the bedroom, right? Which, as we get older, becomes— especially for women, I think— becomes more and more crucial to if we want to, you know, if we want to get to the big O. And there's a lot of people who have never done that before, and it can be filled with fear because it's like, is she trying to replace, you know, part of my body with something, with this mechanical device, right? Instead of just This is here to enhance our pleasure. Just think of all the fun we can have with this. We can do things together, we can do things separately, we can use things that are meant to be used together. And I find a lot of people are really kind of like, no, no toys in the bedroom, I'm not having them, because it takes away from our intimacy, rather than thinking about it as something that contributes to your pleasure. So I think That's just, you know, one example of where if we just flip the narrative, we can think of these things in a completely different way.

Absolutely.

And remove the shame and the fear and the feelings of inadequacy that often accompany needing that little bit of extra help. I have this whole thing about lube. I get women saying they're wet enough, which is, you know, drives me crazy. But anyway, that's another topic.

Well, and everybody is different, right? And it's, to me, it really boils down to giving yourself the opportunity to be curious rather than fixating or attaching to one idea that's like hardline no matter what. Like, you know what, I feel like I am wet enough, but I haven't tried lube before. Let me see what that feels like. Let me try it in different scenarios and see if it's additive or not. If it is, it is, and if it's not, it's not. And there's different kinds of lube, and there's, you know, there's so many ways that we lead with curiosity. To invite new potential experiences. But when we come from this sort of like, nope, like I've got anything different is wrong. Like, and I get it. Look, it's, it can be intimidating, scary. It can trigger a lot of insecurities. Like to your point about toys, I promise this will be my only metaphor involving childhood. Just bear with me, but it's called play, right? We play. This is sex is adult playtime. Did you use toys? Did you play with toys as a child because your friends weren't enough fun? No, you enjoyed playing with the toys together. The same thing applies here. Again, that'll be my last reference to children in this conversation, but you get where I'm going with it. It's a yes and. Yeah, absolutely.

And, and I know that, you know, one of the, you know, the way that we connected was over ethical non-monogamy and polyamory, and I'm, and I'm really keen to talk to you about that because I'm very much of the belief that whilst you can design your relationships that you want and what they look like at any stage of life, often when you've been in a long-term relationship and you come out of it, it's quite natural to only be familiar with that one style of dynamic. And what I see starting to happen with some of my friends, not all of them, but some of them, is that they're looking at these kind of more traditional dynamics and they're rejecting them and saying, saying, what would it look like if I did— if I didn't just have one partner? What would it look like if I explored some sexual fantasies that I've had? What would it look like if my weekends were, you know, twosomes and threesomes and, and whatever? What would that look like? And I think that for me, this is a stage of life that's exciting because it allows us to open up those sorts of opportunities that perhaps when we're still thinking about making babies, when we're still thinking about a family and more traditional relationship dynamics, we might not really be considering. So, you know, what's your experience of, of that in terms of helping people that are perhaps struggling with to free themselves from this traditional dynamic?

I think, well, I think so much of what you just said is key, that I wonder what if is such a juicy place to come from in life and also to have grace with yourself. You're coming out of, you're in, I should say, the same world we all are that we grew up with a lot of this indoctrin— indoctrin— I cannot say this word, indoctrinization. There it is. And at least in Western cultures across the world, there is this idea that this is the one-size-fits-all relationship. But statistically speaking, I'm a nerd. Give me the numbers. That relationship is actually the minority. The majority of people are actually practicing some version of non-monogamy. It's just whether it's consensual or not. Yeah. That's the conversation that I'm really interested in happening. I'm, I'm really passionate about people being able to make a choice, even if that choice is monogamy. So there's questions that I wonder, what if, what would this look like? That's the juice. That's the really, really good stuff where you're getting curious about what are my needs? Where do I fall on the hierarchy of exclusivity when it comes to my sexual needs and my emotional needs? You might need more exclusivity emotionally than you do sexually. That's great information. Now you can find a relationship structure that supports those needs and a partner or partners that are also compatible with that. That doesn't mean you necessarily need the same relationship, both of you, but you find a meeting point so that you're both creating an agreement, which is a relationship, Relationships, just an agreement between two people about how we're going to show up for each other. What are our behaviors? What are our agreements? How are we going to be in different environments? How are we going to communicate with each other? So I think that— does that answer your question? Or is there—

Yeah, yeah. And I think one of the things that— you haven't said it just out loud, but one of the things that comes across in all of that is this aspect of being clear about your needs, right? Being clear about what you want with someone else in a way that doesn't scare the shit out of them. And I think that's often the fear that many people have, isn't it?

Because I want to— I really want to speak to that. We are, especially folks that are socialized as women in a Western culture, we are taught from birth, do not rock the boat. Everyone else's needs are more important. Your needs, you don't even have needs. And if you do, they don't matter. They're secondary to other people. And we're getting this messaging everywhere in every way, subliminally, subliminally, directly, all across the board. So it's a lot to unpack to even just get to know what we want. But then the same goes for, you know, our, our men, they're told they want this and this only, and it looks this one way. So they also have to do that work. All kinds of us, no matter what, gender expression we identify with, have got some kind of programming to kind of parse through to find what are my actual needs versus what I think I am supposed to want. And then this idea of, but I don't want to scare the other person. I don't want to make someone else uncomfortable. I wish I could remember who said this, if this is a quote or if this is just like a gathering of a bunch of different, you know, thought leaders. But the idea that You can't say the wrong thing to the right person.

Yeah. Yeah.

You know, you, you know, I'm curious about this kink. If they're a person who's gonna, even if they've never done it before, if they're curious about you, they're like, wow, that is new to me. Yeah. Let's, okay.

Why?

Yeah. They're going to lean in. Why are you interested in that? Like, they're not just going to like, you're not wrong for your desires. It helps to understand them and be able to communicate them so that you can find your people. Not everyone is your people and that's okay. Okay.

Yeah. And, and I think often when, when I talk to people about exploring some of your kinks, some of your desires, what I often think is quite helpful is to play that out as a fantasy with your partner, right? To imagine if you have a threesome fantasy, to imagine that there's a third person in the room to talk with your partner while you're having sex. Oh God, I can see this going on in my head and It's really exciting, and to involve your partner in that fantasy before you potentially think about moving to the next stage, which is trying to involve a real person. Because often I see people for whom just reenacting those fantasies is good enough. It doesn't actually need to move to the next stage. They're actually really happy, like, having this kind of role-playing relationship where someone's this part and someone's playing the other part and everybody's really good with that and it's kinky and hot and horny and everybody gets off, right? And it's great. So I always think with this sort of thing, don't feel that this pressure always to take it to that stage because once you involve another human being, no matter in what context that is, whether it's just going to a sex party or a club or something and, and playing around with somebody of the same sex or couple or whatever you have to do, those are real people and shit happens. And sometimes my, you know, certainly my own experience is that sometimes the stuff that goes on in my head is 10 times more exciting than what goes on in real life. And I know you're hosting a big sex party in the coming couple of months, right? And so you know how important it is to curate these experiences because It's not always horny.

No. And I can tell you, producing a large-scale event, there's nothing sexy about it.

Getting up to—

other than like curating the talent and everything, it's very fun. But no, to your point, it's the, the, the work and the effort that goes into, you know, figuring it all out ahead of time as much as possible. Like, I have a number of videos on my YouTube channel and my Substack, I should say. Stay on Substack. They're here too, about how to create a successful threesome. And what I mean by that is a threesome where everyone leaves feeling good. And you have put in a little legwork ahead of time to do that. So many people have this idea that it's just like, oh, it just like kind of like happens. And like maybe sometimes that works out. But to your point, this is another person, whether it's 3 individuals coming together or a couple bringing a third person in or whatever the mix and match is. These are 3 complete human beings. With dynamics between each of them. So making sure you're ready and you have basic tools and agreements to guide the experience, again, whether it's sexual, relational, yeah, all of that is so, so key.

Yeah, yeah, no, completely. And look, when it goes well and everybody's on the same page and you're all having fun, it is the biggest blast. But But when it doesn't go well, it's really not that fun. And sometimes it can go really badly wrong for, you know, for one or more people. Right. And, and I think one of the things that I've certainly noticed around all of this is the ability to just be able to laugh at whatever's going on.

Right.

It's like, yes, it is, especially if you're in a fairly, you know, in a pretty solid relationship with your partner and you've decided to do this. And something's happened and it's either not going well for both of you or it's not going well for one of you. I mean, I have a friend and she just gets into one crappy situation after another to the point where I just said to her, "Babe, I love you, but what, you know, like clearly this just, this just isn't happening," right? And she's so determined. She's so determined. I have to love her for that. But, you know, she's able to laugh at it at the end of the day. And that's what I love about her is she's just like, it was a disaster, move on.

Yeah. Well, ideally learn from it and move on. But I agree with you. I think there's like the most special kind of intimacy to me is like if I'm, you know, having sex with a partner and we can go from like screaming orgasm one second to like tears streaming down our face laughter. That is just, that is like the penultimate intimacy connection. Like just mwah, chef's kiss on all accounts. That is my absolute favorite. And I couldn't agree more, especially when you're trying something new or you're inviting someone else in. Like, remember again, this is another person. So are they comfortable making sure that there's not this tension between you guys that they're not sure how to navigate, showing them that you have the ability to be like, wow, that was That was awful. How was that for you? That is so yummy and wonderful and welcoming and feels so safe for another person. It doesn't— there's no perfect. This is not a performance. Whether again, whether it's your relationship or some new sexual experience, it's an exploration. The mistakes are part of it. Ideally, again, you've created some kind of foundation where you know how you're going to navigate those mistakes if they come up and you can do them with grace and humor. And that's where the growth and the growing is, the yes and to all of these experiences.

So I think we had a question from one of my peers about how, is there a sort of traditional dynamic that goes on where the woman leads or the man leads in these scenarios? Like how much is informed by patriarchy, if you like, and where, you know, and how does it work?

I think this question was specifically pertaining to, you know, open relationship dynamics or polyamory, things like that. Yeah, this is a question that comes up a lot. And I definitely have seen like the assumption in the mainstream or a lot of folks have an assumption that in at least a heteronormative dynamic when a man and a woman are dating, it's generally the man that brings this forward. And it's really about him being with other people and not so much about her and her experience. Statistically, That is not the case. Statistically, it is actually generally a woman in a dynamic who is bringing this up. And I will say, regardless of who brings it up, the more reluctant partner should be setting the pace. They're not necessarily both going to be on exactly the same page and totally gung-ho, especially if you don't even— if neither of you knows why you want this, what you're looking for. A lot of people go into this with no resourcing. That's why I created my course, E&M 101. I want everyone to have the basic resources they need to avoid so many unnecessary mistakes and heartache and potentially risk their whole relationship. Like, it doesn't have to be like that. There are ways to do this, even if you're both not exactly on the same page. But this is another key. If you are doing it, if the door is open, the door is open. It's not, I get to do this, you don't get to do that. We get to decide how we want to be in relationship. We don't get to decide whether our partner does or does not things. We get— let me say that in a little clearer way. We get to decide if we want to be with a partner who sees other people or not. We don't get to decide if our partner sees other people or not. In the same way that if I want to open up, I don't get to tell my partner that he can't any more than I get to tell him he has to.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm in a relationship right now. Actually, one of my partners is not necessarily sure that he wants to see other people, but is completely accepting and supportive of who I am and how I show up and the fact that I have a girlfriend and I go on dates. It's about clarity and communication. He doesn't have to date other people just because I'm dating other people any more than, you know, he shouldn't be allowed to if I don't want to. So hopefully that makes sense. And again, if anyone has any questions, this is a live call. We are here for you. To drop that in the chat. And if you're watching the replay, we will absolutely read the comments after as well. So please don't hesitate to drop any questions you have about, you know, any kind of sex advice for seniors, open relationship dynamics. We've got some specialists on here.

I would say that my experience is that, as you've acknowledged, typically, or more often than not, The relationships that I know that are open have almost entirely been driven by the woman's desire for a same-sex relationship. Um, and they're in a heterosexual relationship and they, and they have strong bisexual tendencies and they really want to explore some type of relationship with another woman. And, and, and I know people that have been doing that for a you know, decades, frankly, and their partners have not always been interested in doing anything, or sometimes just going off and potentially just having sex with another woman, for instance. And, um, and it's taken a huge amount of communication between all of them, especially when these are, you know, proper— what I would say, I'm not saying anything is proper or not proper. But for me, polyamory, the word itself, for me suggests having an emotional relationship with more than one person. Whereas I say that I tend more towards being a swinger. I have multiple sexual relationships. Sometimes I don't have multiple sexual relationships. Sometimes I just have one. And that's great. And but I never feel constrained by whether or not I can or can't, because for me, the relationships have got, um, they're not, they're not deep love relationships. These are people that I love. I love these people, but they're friends, you know, they're essentially friends, like, and I, and I, and I want them to be happy as well. I was speaking to a friend of mine the other day about compersion, and for anybody who doesn't know what that means, it's, it's about happiness and joy. It's seeing your partner with somebody else, enjoying seeing them with somebody else. And I definitely don't have those deep feelings of jealousy that I know sometimes get in the way, right? But I do know that my friends who are— who really want to have multiple emotional connections with people, it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work because when our emotions are involved, people can get hurt, you know?

Yeah. Well, I want to caveat relationships are work regardless because you're, you're two entire universes trying to intersect, whether you have one partner or three. So the way I like to talk about consensual non-monogamy is if you think of it as like exposure therapy, it's actually not really anything new. These are all the same concerns, you know, potential risks, etc., that you have in a monogamous relationship. You're just facing them head on because like I said, most people are actually in a non-monogamous dynamic. It's just whether or not it's consensual. And what I'm referring to is infidelity, cheating. Just because you're married, monogamous, whatever terminology you have, does not guarantee that there's not going to be some version of this. Consensual non-monogamy puts that all on the table and says, what are your needs? What are you curious about? What agreements can we create so that we both feel safe navigating together rather than trying to pretend, sweep things under the rug? It can feel like, you know, monogamy is the accepted social norm. So it can feel like less work because you don't have to do much. You just, you know, slap a ring on it and we're together and we all know what that means. But a lot of people aren't actually practicing what that means and they haven't actually talked about a lot of really important things like What is cheating? You may not have the same definition as your partner. Your partner might think cheating is anything, you know, physical with somebody else's genitals, whatever. And their partner might think watching porn is cheating. And they've never talked about it. So this idea that it's a lot more work, no, it's actually just the work of having relationships. You just have to do it when you have multiple people that you're relating with because we don't have a social structure that says, yes, it's normal to do all this and we can just kind of sweep this under the assumption rug. I recommend even monogamous couples learn about consensual non-monogamy and all the skills and tools it takes because it actually takes the same ones to have a successful monogamous relationship as well.

Yes, such a good point, Allie. It's an amazingly good point. And I always think were I to get involved with someone again on a, on a, you know, on a deep, more serious level than the, than the involvements that I have, I would probably go and suggest that we have counseling, just a few sessions of counseling, just to make— just to get our communication between ourselves effectively working. Because what I see with lots of younger— I know I, I did this myself when I was married, right? You just, you just go in and like you say, you slap a ring on it and off you go, and you think you know everything. And then of course, years later, you've, you've had boring, predictable sex for years. You, you probably stopped having it. Maybe one of you's not having it with somebody else. You know, you're doing all of those quite— I think quite predictable things that happen when you don't communicate with your partner what's going on. And so you drift apart. Maybe you have kids, you're putting all your energy into them, and then before you know it, the kids have left home. You don't really know who this person is anymore. And rather than try and figure that out you just let the relationship kind of drift. And that's a fairly common pattern of behavior because no one says to you when things are drifting, why don't you see how you can make them not drift and maybe need to go and seek some help? Just like if you broke your toe, you'd go and see a doctor, right? You wouldn't just expect your toe to just like, oh, I'm just going to wander around on it for a while. It'll sort itself out.

Right? Well, yeah, and it's not a matter too of necessarily, you know, either one of you or the relationship being broken. It's just that there's some unworkable stuff going on. So let's look at it and see how we can make it workable. And it's, you know, again, it's that complacency. We spend so long in this relationship, we get into these grooves, these habits. It's just like it becomes a habitual thing that, oh God, it feels like so much work. I'd rather just pretend. Let's just keep pretending. And then, oh gosh, now I'm in this relationship with somebody else. And like, that's what I love too. Like, oh, it sounds like so much work to have have multiple partners because having a second life and like hiding and lying and everything involved in that is less work. Like, while you're out of integrity the entire time, like, that sounds miserable. I would rather be direct. And it's also like enables you that there's, again, it's that like exposure therapy. You're, you're training, you're having to deal with uncomfortable realities on a regular basis instead of just pretending they don't exist. I mean, we have a Disney you know, fairy tale culture relationships, or, you know, you meet that person, it's magic. You don't have to say anything. You just know. And then it's happily ever after. Well, guess what? The happily ever after is doing your taxes, getting a little extra around the belly, you know, figuring out the mortgage refund. That's the happily ever after. And no one tells us how to navigate that stuff. It takes some effort. You're relating with a— you're building a life with at least one other person. There's things to negotiate. And we just get used to just avoiding the discomfort because so much is going on in life. So when you're in a relationship structure that is okay with being uncomfortable, that invites those conversations, you get better at it. It's like going to the gym, you know, you get better. You're not running a marathon every day. You're not competing in like the weightlifting Olympics every day, but you're training, you're working on it. So when those inevitable challenging conversations or relationship friction points come up, you actually have tools and strength and ability to deal with them and address them. And turn them into opportunities. Yeah.

And just as a little tangential, yesterday I was going for a wander around London. I ended up walking 27,000 steps. But anyway, casual. But along the way, I went into a shop where they had a bunch of like cards from the School of Life. You're probably familiar with the School of Life. Most people are familiar with the School of Life. And so I bought the cards, which are the Pillow Talk cards. Cards. I don't know if you've seen them, but they're very—

I've never used them, but I've heard about them.

Yeah. So I thought I'll buy the Pillow Talk cards because I'm curious to see the kind of questions that, you know, you can start asking your partner. Because I think one of the things, and certainly one of the challenges that I know I have, and I feel I'm fairly confident when it comes to being able to express my desires, is sometimes I get myself into these situations where I've built stuff up in my head to this monumental degree.

I don't know what that's like.

And thinking, no, I can't possibly say that. I can't possibly say that. No, I'm not going to say that, right? And so I brought out these cards at lunch today, um, just to see what they, what they had on them. And I have to say that whilst some of them I was like, God, I don't know how I'd answer those, it was like 'What is a kinky fantasy that you've thought about but you've never actually— but you wouldn't actually want to try yourself?' And I thought, 'God, I don't know the answer to that.' That's like, I pretty much want to try all of them. Because I just want to try all of them. Yeah, because they're not going to be a fantasy for me unless I want to try them. Like, that's kind of— but I thought that was like, there's a whole bunch of cute little curious questions that I always think is prac— people want practical tips, right? And so I always think things like this are like a really kind of cute way to introduce that intimate, that deeper level of intimacy into your relationship. Sometimes just springing out with, there's something that's been driving me crazy and I have to ask you now because it's gonna kill me, can feel really risky. But pulling out a little deck of cards that you just bought on the South Bank one day and you're like, I just want to little deck of cards, "Let me ask you some questions." You know, there are tools out there like this, and I'm sure you've got loads of them, that just invite intimacy, a deeper level of connection with your partner without feeling overwhelmed by the question that you are dying to ask.

Well, and I love talking about too, I think language is important, and I think it's important to acknowledge the words fantasy and desire can get used very interchangeably in our society. And I think that can be where some of the pressure comes from, and it's related to that question question you actually just brought up. Just because you're thinking about something doesn't necessarily mean you do actually want to live it out. Not everyone's like us, or we're like, I wonder what that'll be like.

It's—

a lot of people have thoughts in their head, and I'm talking the, the darkest, you know, illegal, you know, like socially unacceptable, like all of the things. Just because you're thinking about it as a fantasy, that means it lives up here. It's your imagination only. Does not immediately make it a desire, meaning you want to take it out of fantasy into reality. That's the difference. And it's really important to explore and understand the difference for yourself so that you can create those boundaries and you can communicate to your partner. Yeah, I want to talk about this. I don't want to, I don't want to do this. I actually run into this sometimes. Couples will come to me and they think, you know, one of them thinks they want to open up and they want to know how to have that conversation. And we, Talk through what it is. And then they actually come to realize, I don't know that I actually need to open up. I just wanted to be able to talk about it and be curious. And it leads them to the next conversation and the next curiosity. Cause there is, there's so much like unnecessary shame around our curiosities and desires.

Yeah.

Yeah. And we have this intimate connection with another person and we want to be able to share that, but we're not given the tools. And so we just keep squishing it down, squishing it down until, like you said, to your point, it becomes this like thing. And if I'm thinking it, then I must want it. Well, I'm thinking it, I want to be able to talk to you about it. Can we get curious? I don't know what it means yet. Are you down to get a little uncomfortable with me?

Yeah.

Like, that's okay.

Yeah. I mean, there's this thing called the yes, no, maybe checklist. And I know there's very different variations of it online. You can find at least 3 or 4 different variations where you just literally run through a shopping list of things that you might be thinking about, you really are not interested in doing, you're open to possibilities of either giving that person that or receiving it from that person on you. And it's a really great way, again, of just breaking down some of those thoughts that you might have had, but maybe, maybe you want to try them, but maybe you don't. And like you said, maybe it's just something you just want to talk about. And maybe a point where the other person is not somebody that you really, you know, is not down with that. But maybe just talking about it is good enough, you know, just getting it out there. So there are lots and lots of different ways to do this. And as you say, it's not necessarily all or nothing.

It's—

yeah, it's just— I'm just putting it out there. I don't know what it means, right?

Yeah. The ability to say, I don't know, is such a lost a lost art in our culture. It's such a powerful thing to be like, you know what, I don't know right now, but I want to be in that with you and let's look at it. It's uncomfortable. I've been doing work like this for over a decade, decade and a half. It's still uncomfortable. That's the growth.

Yeah. And the other thing that I wanted to say, because I think it's important as well, if we're kind of talking a little bit about people that are older is that a lot of— when, when I hear that people are no longer feeling horny anymore or their libido has taken a nosedive, often having these conversations about what you might want to do and what you're doing is— can be the, the, the door opener to some form of intimacy that it's myself might just start the juices flowing. And I know, you know, for me, we joke about it's Sunday afternoon and I've had my Sunday afternoon fight, everything. So got it over with early just for you.

Efficient. I'm honored. I'm your aftercare and I love it.

Had to get him out the door. Like, I gotta start soon. I've got to start soon. But, you know, um, knowing that there's that possibility is for me the first step to, you know, me getting excited starts days before I actually meet, you know, this particular person because I'm thinking about what's going to happen, what could happen. And so all of that kind of stuff, again, fantasy and using your imagination and being creative, it's such a great opportunity to get excited again because often we just get in a rut. And that's really a lot of what it boils down to, I think, in long-term relationships. We just get in a rut.

Yeah. And we forget that there's different kinds of desire, right? We're used to spontaneous desire at the beginning of a relationship, you know, right out the gate. All I have to do is think about you, we're on top of each other. And most long-term relationships, regardless of, you know, the combination of people and genders, generally responsive desire increases while spontaneous desire decreases. And that's— responsive is like, you know, you're kissing and you're touching before you can really get aroused. And there's this like unfortunate cultural disdain for the idea of like even the word maintenance sex. That doesn't sound great, does it? But I always like to use the metaphor, like when you plan a vacation, are you less excited about it? Does it make it less fun to look for— no, you get to anticipate it. Now you're looking forward to it. You're imagining all the things you're going to be doing on it. That is the whole point of scheduling sex. When you have a long-term relationship and the responsive desire is much more prevalent, that can actually help increase spontaneous desire as well when you really commit to a sexual connection practice. I will say, I do love this quote from Esther Perel: "In order to want more sex, it has to be sex worth wanting." But that is a responsibility of everyone involved. Are you asking for what you want? Do you know how? As a partner, are you creating a safe space for your partner to ask for what they want? Are you, are you creating the opportunities to get curious and play with new things together? You're both responsible for creating it as something that is desired by both of you. And it's a process. Like, we all go in and out of that sort of a thing.

Yeah. And I know another, you know, Slightly changing the subject is another, a question that I've been asked often is like, oh, so Suzanne, you know, you talk about opening up relationships, you talk about having multiple partners, you talk about doing all of these things. I can't even meet one single person that I want to have any form of intimacy with, never mind more than one person. Like, where do you find people? You know, I suppose, you know, my answer to that is, look, I, I use online sites, mainly kind of hookup sites or sites like Field, which are mainly aimed at people who aren't into monogamous relationships. Not necessarily, but there's more people there that are. But also, I don't, I don't set too many requirements. If I'm really honest. Like, I don't have a very long list of tick boxes. I'm, I'm interested in people that love sex. Yeah, you know, that love pleasure and love sex. And, and everything else that sits around that almost sometimes it just kind of takes care of itself because we've— if we've got a connection, there's often other things that we're— that, that just that just are, we're connected by.

Well, it depends what sort of relationship or relationships you're looking for too, because not every person is going to be the right partner for every type of relationship you're looking for. That's one of the things I love about multi-partner dynamics is it doesn't adhere to the illusion that we're under, which is a fairly recent illusion in human evolution, that one single person is going to somehow be your biggest cheerleader your spiritual guru, your sex god, your massage therapist, your accountant, your co-parents, a great interior designer, obviously. You know what I mean? This is insane. So we have this entire list. They all have equal weight. So financial stability is just as important as 6'2". That's crazy. And so it's taking on what you said, the yes, no, maybe list, I think is actually a really great framework for looking at people to potentially be dating for whatever type of relationship you're looking for. What are the qualities that are negotiable and non-negotiable? The must-haves and the nice-to-haves. They can't all have the same equal weight. And in addition, looking at what kind of partnership am I looking for? Not what kind of partner, what kind of partnership am I looking for? Do I want them to be a co-parent? Does that mean I also want to live with them? Are we combining finances or am I good on my own with that? Are they combining more childcare? Really drill into the type of relationship you're looking for rather than this one size fits all. I want a partner, I want a husband, period. That means everything. What does that literally mean day to day? What does that mean? And then break those down into negotiables, non-negotiables, must have, nice to have, yes, no, maybe. Like that is, you've got to parse it down because have, whether you have 45 things or 4 things on a list. They can't all have the same value. These are human beings that are growing and changing just like you. Your relationship is going to grow and change. So what are the core components you're looking for? What's underneath the 6-foot? Is it that you like to feel small? You like to feel cared for and protected? That's an interesting core value. You can look at that. What are the other things that make you feel like protected and secure? Those are the things you're looking for.

Yeah, it's a great point. And to that point, I think that there's the frustration often comes from, from people not willing to make some of those compromises around some of the stuff that actually is it. How important really is it? You know, how important is 6 foot really? I mean, you know, at the end of the day, and, and just not willing to kind of to look at that. And I know that there's, you know, there's a lot of women I know that are saying, and I know Esther Perel, this is where I was going to get to Esther Perel, our favorite.

I know, if you haven't referenced her at least 5 times in a conversation, are we even really talking about sex and relationships?

Totally essential. But one of the things she said that always struck with me after reading Mating in Captivity, which I have to say, the the first time I read it, which is when it, it just came out, I was like, wow, this woman is— finally someone is speaking my language. Somebody understands the nature of eroticism. And one of the things she said is distance breeds desire. And that is a phrase that I bring up time and time again because it covers so many different aspects of what often goes wrong within relationships, is this, this feeling that we have to let them know every single thing about ourselves because that's what's going to make them love us more, is if they just, if they just know everything, right? Rather than thinking, I— they don't need to know that. I mean, uh, it's not, you know, it's not necessary for me. The whole domesticity thing is an absolute libido killer for me. So, you know, I just remove that from any relationship I have because I know that As soon as someone says to me, have you emptied the dishwasher today? Or, oh, I thought you'd like to know, I put this stuff in this tumble dryer. It's like, so I just don't— I just think that's not going to do it for me. I know what—

versus it's an aphrodisiac for some people. Oh my God, you did the dishes? Get over here.

And I did have a partner who absolutely thrived during the pandemic when we moved in together. He absolutely thrived because for him domesticity was security, it was love, it was comfort, it was making a home. It was all this stuff that for me was an absolute libido killer. Like, I had to exile him to a separate bedroom, which thankfully I had. Had during the pandemic because my lodger moved out, right? I just had to say, like, you have to go. Like, we have to create some space because otherwise this is going to be a— this is literally going to be a disaster for us. Um, you know, and, and not everybody feels that way. Obviously some people love all of that sitting on the couch watching telly together, but again, it's not just about your sexual preferences. It is about some of the small things that sometimes are the key things that just absolutely crush the eroticism, which I feel is, for me anyway, it's a very important part of my other relationships I have with people. Without some erotic something, I just am like, yeah, yeah.

I think, and there's also an illusion in that idea of I know everything about my partner. You don't. You never ever will. Like, but we think we do and we think we need to bear every part of ourselves and we think we're doing that thing. Even the illusion is the killer of that. But there's something like I always catch my couples who like to say, oh, like we finish each other's sentences. It's a big one, right? Like that's just called interrupting. You actually don't know what they're going to say. The higher probability may be based on past experience, but there is always a chance that they're not going to say what you think they're going to say. So shut the fuck up and let them speak. Let them surprise you. And I think there's— this is also connected to something I see a lot too. We really are having trouble as a society differentiating between uncomfortable and unsafe, especially in our relationships and our language and things like that. Uncomfortable is not only okay, it's necessary. It's necessary for intimacy, for personal growth. It's necessary for excitement, you know, like all of the newness. Unsafe is very, very different. So if we're avoiding discomfort in the same way we're avoiding being unsafe, we're robbing ourselves of a lot of opportunity for connection, again, for personal growth, for greater intimacy. Yeah. Looking for those opportunities to be new to our partners, to let our partners be new to us. Can feel uncomfortable because there's this, you know, security again and like, oh, I know everything they're gonna say, it's all good. And if you allow them not to, it's, you know, it's a new sensation of like, who are they? But that is to your point, that's what breeds desire. That's what allows that spark to come back where they might actually not be exactly what you think they are. I even push this farther, like an exercise I love doing with couples is like a date night. But you don't know each other. You're, you know, you decide who's going to pick up who, and you see if you genuinely can. Don't go easy on them. Genuinely try and see if you can get them to go home with you. You don't have to. You do not know. You're going to get a hotel room and you're going to have your house, and you may go back to the same place together and you may not. Genuinely see. And that just adds again that play. It takes the pressure off infuses that excitement, that unknown, that possibility. And it's simple. It's so, so simple. Who says date night has to be the same thing all the time?

Yeah, no. And it's super exciting. I mean, especially if you get dressed separately, you leave at separate times so that you don't see what the other person is wearing. So when they turn up, they may surprise you with something. Never seen them in. You know, I think there's— again, there's so many possibilities for that, to just be playful, have fun, see the person in a new light, and enjoy that new experience with them. But we often don't give ourselves the opportunity. We, you know, again, I always talk— we talked a little bit about scheduling sex and maintenance sex and stuff like that. I do think that there's something to be said about doing things that are playful within that time that you set aside with each other, right? So you're— what, what looks like maintenance kind of scheduled sex doesn't have to be. It can be an opportunity to just like give somebody a Post-it note with something that you know that you both said you wanted to try, but maybe you haven't done it yet. And maybe you just leave a note on their pillow that just says, this afternoon I want you to put on your sexy high heels and your fishnet stockings. And, you know, and I want to, I want to do something different. So I think it's, it's all of this sort of stuff is how you look at it. Predictable can be unpredictable. It doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be same old, same old if you don't want it to be.

And it can start in a, in a low-stakes environment too. Like, if you're somebody who's very used to routine, finds a lot of comfort in routine, and it feels very scary to try something new in the bedroom, which is so intimate and so vulnerable, order a different coffee that morning. Put on two different socks that don't match. Like, do something different that is, again, low low pressure, and do a few of those and get used to that feeling, and then raise the stakes for the next one, and then raise it for the next. Kind of, you know, train yourself. Don't think you have to dive straight in. You know, you're watching us have this conversation. Maybe you're curious about new relationship dynamics, exploring consensual non-monogamy. That doesn't mean you go and you bring a third person home tomorrow. It means you go and look for resources, you learn from folks, you get, you know, you should get some books, you go through my course, E&M 101, so you have the whole groundwork and know what you're talking about. Because you might, you don't even know what it is. How do you know that you want to try it? Especially if you don't have the tools to actually do it in a way that honors and respects your relationship. And the same, the same can be said for, you know, spicing up the bedroom, spicing up your sex. Sex life. Say, you know, you're a committed monogamous couple and you've tried some fun new things, but you're still kind of, you know, you want a little bit more. That doesn't necessarily mean we're going to go to a play party and we're going to have sex with everyone. Like, that is— you don't have to, again, jump in the deep end. There are environments. You can go to sex-positive events. You can go to a rope tying workshop together. You can go to other environments. You can go to a play party. The play party environment is not a space where you have to anything. No, I'll just be there together. You can, you can play together, you cannot play at all, you can invite others in, you cannot. It's just an environment.

That's right.

You get to decide what you're bringing.

And that's really important for people to understand, is that in these places, no matter what kind of club that you're going to, if you decide that you're going to explore some of these places, in none these places, is there a requirement for you to do anything?

If you— other than honor boundaries and consent?

Yeah, obviously. But well, I say obviously, maybe it's not so obvious, but, but you can sit back and do nothing. You can watch, you can participate, you can leave, you know, you can decide what it is that your level of comfort within this. And I think, as we've suggested, One of the key aspects with all of this, in all of this, is around consent, right? Is in making sure that whatever you decide to do, you're both on board with it, that nobody's experiencing any discomfort that makes them feel vulnerable, unsafe, and just, you know, doing something that they really don't want to do. And I— unfortunately, there is an aspect sometimes in, in those sorts of environments where I have definitely seen things where I did not feel that both people were on board. And I know that's not, that's not unfamiliar, is that there's a lot of places I go where it's clear that the woman's been dragged kicking and screaming. She doesn't want to be there. Her partner's trying to make her feel really comfortable. She looks absolutely, totally miserable. And I think, you know, you both got to be on board with that, I'm afraid. Like, if one person wants to do it and the other one is like, that's a hard no, you cannot drag your partner there.

No, but it's time to renegotiate some agreements and talk about, you know, yeah, there's always another— there's always a conversation that can be had. It's— I think it's the all-or-nothing mentality that gets a lot of people in trouble, unfortunately, and puts a lot of unnecessary pressure on partners. It's not all or nothing. It's just a conversation like, what is possible here? Where can we meet? You know, because I agree with you. You know, unfortunately, you know, we're in a sex-negative, consent-negative culture. So these are spaces that are safer. They are more consent-forward and focused. But there is no safe space any more than there is safe sex. It's an opportunity to be in a space that's a lot more aware of these things. But at the end of the day, again, it's what you bring into the space that matters.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

And I think in just generally, I would always suggest to people that they— certainly when I'm in those spaces, I always try and go with somebody who I say, look, it's your responsibility to look out for me here because I may go into some very seriously, uh, situations that potentially could be quite dangerous. But as long as I know that I'm being looked after, and as long as I'm clear about my boundaries, then I expect that to be respected. So we need to be good with that. Um, and when I've been with people who have not felt comfortable being that conf— confrontational sometimes with other people. Things again don't always work out well, but generally I just leave and just say, I'm not comfortable, so I'm just gonna get myself out of here. But, you know, discussing what happens when things don't potentially go the way you expected, like role-playing a little bit of that stuff, like understanding what it means to set those boundaries and to stick with them, um, when you've never done it before, it can be a little bit like, whoa, I wasn't expecting— I just wasn't expecting that to happen, and I didn't really know how to react. So preparing yourself, and I'm sure there's ways they could do that with people like yourself, is just actually making sure that people know when you— if that happens, here are some of your options, this is what you do.

Yeah, exactly, because it's, it's, it's not a, you know, one and done. All right, we bought tickets to this party, we don't have to I don't want to talk about it again until we go. No, you're— this level of mindfulness, ideally, I invite for everyone to have in every area of their life. It only enriches your life and your relationships. But that— what you're talking about is some sort of pre-negotiation, some sort of conversation around, hey, these are my boundaries, these are my intentions, these are my desires. Down? Cool. What are yours? Great. Now we can agree on how we're going to show up with each other. You do that before, you do that on the drive there, you do that at the party, you do it after the party because those things may shift and change. And like to your point, you're going to learn from any potential mistakes or snafus that happen. Those are still valuable. No one's evil here. Hey, that happened. We had talked about it not happening like that. Can we talk about how that happened and why so we can make sure it doesn't again? Or actually, I didn't mind it and I thought I would, so I'm down changing that boundary. Don't knowingly cross consent or any kind of boundary like that. But mistakes do happen. We need to have room for mistakes so that we can learn. But ideally, they're never, never the same mistake twice because you learn from them, you adjust, you move forward. Yeah.

And I think, you know, when I think about some of my experiences where I thought, I kind of thought I knew what was, you know, what my partner was into and what they weren't into, and then certain things happened that they weren't into, and then we had to like you said, renegotiate, have a conversation like, okay, what's this about? What's going on here? I can see your discomfort. So like, let's talk about that, right? And just sort of sweeping it under the carpet. So again, I think, you know, all of these spaces, for me, they're an opportunity to explore, get to know my partner a bit better, but also understand what they don't like. What they're not into. What—

yeah, what—

where's, where's their no-go? Where's their hard stop? Where's their— now that's just not interesting to me, right?

Yeah.

So yeah, I mean, it's— look, they're not— these spaces are not for everybody, but I certainly see, you know, people always say, oh, it must be awful of young people. No, I mean, every play party I've been to, I've say that the average age was anywhere between kind of mid-30s right up until people in their 70s. I— it's really a broad age. People can get into these sorts of scenes at any age. People can decide to do whatever dynamic they're seeking. There's no, there's no age limit to this sort of stuff.

Um, so I will say though, there are some, there are some groups, there are some parties that do have a more homogenous vibe, depending. There's all kinds of all kinds is the thing, because especially when you're in a space that has to do with attraction and, you know, desire and fantasy, there's a component of making sure that everyone in an environment is interested in some of the same stuff. You know, if you're— if you have no interest in kink or BDSM, going to a fetish party is probably not the best space for you, especially as your first So like having certain, you know, it's important that we have parties that are just for a certain group or age range. If they're looking, you know, if there's folks that are only attracted to, you know, within a certain age range, things like that, that's important. Just as important as it is to have spaces that are much wider and, you know, there's a lot more overlap. And the point is there's both. There's all of that. If you've been to a play party or something like that and it wasn't what you wanted, I assure you, go to another one. There is— are other opportunities here. There's varying degrees of price points, theatricality, so much. There's so much I could say on this and we're wrapping up in our last few minutes. So I'll just say this. If you are curious, I do have a ton of resources, not just about consensual non-monogamy and opening up relationships without ideally breaking up. I also have a ton of resources when it comes to exploring sex-positive spaces like play parties. I'm actually launching a brand new global touring play party this year. It's an annual traveling event. It's actually a worldwide art opening just masquerading as a play party. But more on that on my Substack. There's a link there. I'll link the event page as well in this post. And if you have any questions again for either of us, please do leave a comment. We love to see them. We will answer all of them. Any closing thoughts, Suzanne?

Thank you. And yeah, and so I'm from Sex Advice for Seniors and I speak with people like Allie and other experts. And I have a closed chat group where people can ask questions of an intimate nature that's not public, as does Ali, so that if you have a question and you're not very comfortable about asking it in an open forum, then you can, you can become a subscriber and you can ask those questions there. And I've got about 150 episodes of my podcast now on Substack which are with a huge variety of experts, from people working in sexual health like urologists and gynecologists, and plus relationship experts and dating experts and all sorts of other people. I've really enjoyed speaking to all of them, but especially Allie today, because it's always a pleasure. So thank you so much for having me. And yeah, yeah, I'll be going back to my roast chicken, which has got 20 minutes left to cook.

Is that a euphemism or are you just actually making dinner?

Dinner.

Never know with you. I never know. And on that note, I'm Allie Eisman with Passport to Pleasure. I'm an ICF certified relationship coach, writer, host, speaker. My favorite topic is non-monogamy. That's why they call me the non-monogamy nerd. I have tons of educational resources on my Substack and on my website, passporttopleasure.com. Suzanne Noble, and I thank you all so much for joining my Substack Live. This has been Open Dialogue, formerly known as Office Hours. Gonna be going through some transition in June on this Substack, but some very, very exciting new things are gonna be launching this summer. So if you're not subscribed already, make sure to do so now. Thank you all so much.

Thank you.