Pegging and the Older Man - How to Do It

This week's episode has been sponsored by Oh My Bod, shifting the evolution of pleasure. Hi, this is Suzanne Noble, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. Hello everybody. Today we're gonna get into the nitty-gritty of a topic that after 150 episodes, I don't think I've ever spoken about before. And I actually do know quite a bit about this little topic. And I suspect that a lot of men out there, especially, are gonna be really quite excited when we talk about this. And I'm really happy to have speaking with me somebody who knows a lot about this, a lot. Not only does she know a lot, but she's actually got a t-shirt range, and I'll give you a little hint about what we're gonna talk about, called That says pegging for the patriarchy. Is that— isn't it? Anyway, I want to welcome Luna Matatas. She's coming at us all the way from Toronto. She's had over 15 years experience as a sex and pleasure, pleasure educator. Can't get my words out today. And she talks a lot about kink and about anal play and about femdom and all sorts of really interesting topics. Like I said, a lot of which we've just never covered here, bizarrely. So welcome, to Sex Advice for Seniors, Luna.

Ah, thank you. Thank you for having me.

So yeah, this pleasure for the patriarchy, like obviously pegging is one of the things that I've seen on your website that you're somewhat of an expert in. Do you want to give us a little— well, firstly, what the hell is pegging?

Yeah, love it, love it. Pegging actually was a term that was coined, I think, in like the early 2000s, and it was basically to try and capture this desire from heterosexual men who wanted to have a cisgender heterosexual woman strap on a dildo and give them anal sex. So for, for anyone else, I mean, anal sex is just anal sex. But the pegging has a particular kind of power dynamic and subversion around gender roles. That's, that's really a turn-on for people who are into it.

And I think it was actually Dan Savage who coined it. Yes, that's what I heard. I heard that. He coined it. I don't know. I don't know where it came from.

But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he had actually polled his readers and was like, what should we call this? And so I don't know who the original was, but I remember being a teenager, like in my late teens and being like, oh wait, people do this? What's a strap-on? What's a dildo?

Yeah, yeah, and I have to say that most quite a number of older men that I know. I wouldn't say that they want to go necessarily all the way with that, but they definitely are more interested in that area of their body, I've noticed, than guys were when I was younger. I don't know if you think that's a thing, or, and what that's all about.

Yeah, you know what, I think it's a really good observation because, um, for some people as they age, they may also struggle with erections or penis stimulation. And so they may start to engage other erogenous areas like the anus or nipples or other kinds of areas. And then I think it's also a mental thing. I think there's like a freedom with aging where we kind of just don't give a fuck anymore. And we're like, let's do this thing. Let's play with this thing, you know. So they may have had these desires but may have been ashamed to bring them up with their partners when they were younger and maybe less confident.

Yeah, definitely. And I mean, look, it's not, It's not something— a bit like, you know, any kind of anal play. I haven't really talked about that much on Sexify for Seniors, but, you know, I do get the impression that when people are first exploring that area, they don't really know too much about what to do, just generally, because they watch too much porn, and often they don't see all the prep that goes into it. And for me, that's so much about what this is about. Like, the prep is— take— can take up just as much time as the, as the actual activity, right?

Absolutely. And like, porn kind of shows us faster, harder is better. And when it comes to butt stuff, the butt is in charge, you know, we can only go as slow as the hole. And so, you know, things like prepping can include like cleaning out, but then also training your anus, like moving from a finger to a butt plug to dildo, but most people kind of just see the dildo and the fantasy and think that they can take it. And but our bodies just don't work that way. The anus needs training around the tissue and the muscle to be able to accommodate penetration.

Yeah, and lots and lots and lots of lube.

Yes, yes, if you think you have enough lube, add more. That's the rule.

That's right. And I think as well, like you say, pegging is, is ultimately where you might want to get to, but you don't start with pegging, right?

No, exactly. And there's so many nerve endings just around the anus, so you could do anal play without penetration and still enjoy that area if your partner's like, I don't want to be inside you, or I'm worried about poop, you know. And as much cleaning as you can do, if you throw a party in poop's house, you know, poop might come. So you also have to have a little bit of like comfort with there might be mess. Yeah. Yeah.

I have to say that I've had like one of these anal douches for, you know, a significant period of time. And I wouldn't really do any of that without a good clean out because, because it is almost inevitable when you do it otherwise that You know what I mean? It's just kind of the thing.

Exactly. I like to keep some baby wipes nearby. I keep a black towel so we can throw toys or mess on top of it. And the person who's doing the giving can also reassure the person that's receiving that if you need to freshen up, we can pause. It's no big deal. We'll go in the shower, come back and do stuff again. Because I think people, when they start to worry about, oh my God, is it, is it, is there poop? Is that this? They tighten their body. And so that tightens the anal area and makes things more likely to be painful or create injury.

Yeah, completely. And the other thing, of course, I think that is really super important is breathing, because the breathing is what allows the blood to enter, to oxygenate the blood, and that just allows the muscle to relax, doesn't it, and to make everything a lot more comfortable. And I always find that deep, very deep breathing, slow, deep. And as you say, the butt is in charge. It's not the— you only go as slow as you, you know, as fast or as slow as, as, as you feel comfortable. But I think what so many men, as you, as you acknowledge, the reason why so many men find it such a massive turn-on is because they, I suspect, want to know what it's like to be penetrated. And pegging gives you that feeling of what it's like, right? And suddenly it's like, whoa, not being the one who's doing the penetrating, but the one who's receiving is something that so many men don't get to experience and yet fantasize about. And so it's, you know, it is on quite a few bucket lists, but of course you know, what we said before the show is, for me anyway, there's not a lot in it for me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. I think that like there's— for me, I find that the pleasure comes from if I'm giving. There's a, there's a mental and erotic pleasure of kind of surfing someone else's joy and like seeing their reactions. Physically, I do get pleasure from it. I find that the, um, kind of pressure or pounding against your mons pubis, that kind of fleshy area above your clit. That for me is very stimulating because it's kind of rumbling the inner parts of, of the clitoris. Or if you engage like your hands, like for me, touch is like such a turn-on. So feeling someone's body move as they're receiving me. But for some people, they need more direct clitoral stimulation or internal stimulation. And there's toys and attachments that we can also use while we're pegging so that we're getting kind of something on our hotspots directly. So depending on kind of like how, how your body works or how your brain and body are connected in erotic moments, it can vary. But you're right, like sometimes people are more of in a let's give it and enjoy my partner's pleasure and then my turn will come after. That's okay too.

I mean, years and years ago I did try one of those double toys that, oh yes, you know, one bit goes inside and the other bit goes in I think it's called a strapless strap-on, right? Or something like that. It just fell out all the time.

So I don't know who's able to use those. If I use one of those, I have to use a harness too. And so I'll hold it in and I'm like, this is just more for internal stim. Like no one's kegels can hold that that long for thrusting.

You know, I'm really glad to hear you say that because yeah, no, it's a lie. Is it just me, you know, I'm not, yeah. Oh, I'm really glad to hear you say that. And, and I think, you know, the other thing about it is that it is, it is a power thing, right? I mean, it's almost impossible to get away from that, that when you're the one that is giving then, and the other person is receiving, then the other person by necessity becomes more submissive. They just do.

Yeah, I think, I think for some people it is about power for sure, because in society we're kind of told like masculinity is aligned with like penetrating, penetrator, the doer. But you can be the, the giver and the receiver and not enjoy the power dynamic side but just want it to be more sensual. So for example, if I'm lying on my back and someone's bouncing up and down on my dildo, they're in a more active role even though they're the receiver. So some people are turned off of it because they don't want to feel submissive and I try to tell people I'm like, you don't have to. You can default to but you can also play with different positions and energy just like, you know, if I'm receiving, I don't always have to be submissive. I can be dominant and receiving or neutral and receiving.

Yeah, and I think as well that the, that, you know, if When a man first experiences this, often they're a bit overwhelmed by it. And because it's such a different experience from any other sexual experience they probably will have ever had, that it can be a very emotional, really quite deeply emotional experience. And there was recently an article that I read I think it was in The Guardian or somewhere like that, by a guy who had shared— it was a letter saying that he was in his 40s, he'd had this experience, it was something he'd always fantasized about, and then he had it, and he was really emotionally moved by it. Not just in a way like, oh my God, this is a new sexual experience, but this is like a deep, deep feeling within me that has now been realized and I feel really drawn to this person that's done this with me. Because in a way, it's almost like losing your virginity, right? You're, you're doing something for the first time you've never done before. That's quite significant. And I suspect it can bring up a lot of feelings. And in this case, the person that had done it to him broke up with him, and he was devastated. Do you see that a lot, that this kind of experience that men have often brings up very, very deep feelings for them?

Yes, I think, I think you, you hit the nail on the head around, you know, it can feel like a, a virginity taking. It can feel like an opening up of a new area of their eroticism that they haven't had before. And so it can feel like so vulnerable to have finally like explored this area, to have had someone that you trust, to let them inside of you both mentally into your little dirty imagination and then also like into your little dirty body. And so there can be like an attachment an emotional attachment that's formed around that. And what's the— I mean, I find that with my clients, a lot of the challenges are around communication. So people will leave these things unsaid. Instead of saying like, wow, I feel really vulnerable after we did that, I might need a little bit of extra attention or care. Or, you know, for people who are receiving pegging, like men, to choose partners that you know that might be available from. So maybe you don't do this casually, or maybe you do this with someone that you hire professionally in a Dom kind of way because that can be built into your session.

Yeah, yeah, really good point. And if people do want to bring it up within their relationship, how do you advise that they go and do that?

I think it's, it's a lot of pressure if I came home and said to you, hey Suzanne, can you peg me? You know, just like out of the blue, right? So we want to be able to like start it as like a conversation. And not just an ask. And so I might say to you like, hey, I've been thinking about this thing and I'm a little bit nervous to share it with you. Are you open to kind of hearing about a desire I have? Like, there's no pressure. I just want to share with you and I want to know, you know, what, what you're into too. And so focus on not just the pegging but how you want to feel. So maybe you want to feel receptive. Maybe you want to feel submissive. Maybe you want to feel penetrated. Maybe you want to feel full of the other person, or it's novelty or whatever. It's a little bit easier for people to connect to the feelings and the themes of your fantasy than just the activity because that way if you're not into pegging, cool, but we opened up this whole conversation around submission and reception and roleplay and novelty and toys. And so you could have another direction even if pegging is off the table.

Yeah, it's a really good point. And speaking of that, are there any tools or toys that you particularly recommend for beginners versus people who are more experienced?

Yes, there's so many different kinds of harnesses that are out there, the thing that actually holds the dildo. So the person who is doing the pegging, they're going to choose the harness. You'll often find them sold kind of as kits. I don't recommend those. I think you need to find one that is a material you like, is a style you like. Some people like more panties or briefs. I would start with, with a harness. And so a harness has many kind of attachment points where you can tighten it to your, your own body and customize it a little bit. And that's going to mean you have more control during your thrusting, so it's not going to be floppy, it's not going to feel like you can't hold it, right? Um, and then for the dildo, okay, so everybody who wants pegging, their eyes are always bigger than their butthole. Okay, they always want like the biggest thing to go in them as a beginner. And really, it should be about like 2 fingers width. That should be your beginner one. It should be a smooth dildo that's kind of medium firm, have a rounded tip. So we're not going for like Pagan with a unicorn horn or a dragon dick dildo. You know, we're like going simple. And it has to have a base so that the base can fit into the harness. And then for lube, You have to get a long-lasting quality lube. All right, we're not doing drugstore lube. Find something, especially a silicone or like a thicker lube, because the anus doesn't self-lubricate, so we got to keep it lubed up.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, I mean, I had my— back in the day, back in my more active days, I had— I actually had one made for a harness made for me. It was leopard print suede leather by two lesbians, Dutch lesbians. It cost an absolute bomb, I have to say. It was so expensive. It was really— it's probably like a $500 harness now. It's like, was ridiculous. But it was real. But as you pointed out, it had lots of buckles on it so that it could be adjusted and it could be really tight. Because as you say, if it flops around, it's you, you know, the reason why it's easier for men to have sex with women is obviously the thing is actually attached to their body, right?

It's factory installed. Yeah.

When you wear these things, you realize that if you're— and if you're— if you don't feel like it's actually almost attached to your body in a similar way, it's so much more difficult to do it. It's so much more difficult. And I, and I really, every time I haven't, I have to say I bought this ridiculous thing and I have not used it very often, and mainly because I'm not very good at it and, uh, and have some pretty bad stories to tell around that.

So, oh my God, what's the worst one? What's the worst story?

Not particularly proud of, uh, the worst story was somebody who, again, another thing not to advise, This was a long, you know, like 20 years ago or something. I was with somebody, and we'd had too much to drink, and he'd said that he wanted to do this. And I said, "Oh, yeah, I've got a harness. I'll do it for you." And, you know, I was drunk, he was drunk, and he'd never done this before. And I, you know, I went in a bit too enthusiastically. And when he was driving home, he had to make an unexpected pit stop. On the side of the road.

Oh no.

Uh, which he told me about. And, uh, needless to say, I didn't see too much of him after that. Um, nope. But yeah, that was— that wasn't good. So yeah, being drunk when you're doing it the first time is awesome. I, I mean, I always say anyway, if for anything like this, like, you being sober is good because exactly you want to have complete control over what is going on. Absolutely complete control. And, uh, yeah, being drunk does not enable you to have complete control.

No, exactly. And it doesn't allow you to actually progress and practice, you know, like have low expectations for the first time. It may not be smooth, it's not going to be sexy, they're going to be too much communication, whatever. Because what we're doing is trying to get the body to trust and to relax into this, and you can only do that if you have that presence. And being drunk, you don't really have that. And we're not aware of the body's big communication tool, which is pain. And we need to be able to know, right? We need to know if it's a sharp pain, a burning pain, we gotta back off and stop.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I was gonna— my next question was, how can somebody build their confidence as a giver or receiver in pegging play?

Yeah, I think one thing is to not use mainstream porn as your tool, right? Like they, like you said, they have lots of prep beforehand. We don't see the scripts and the editing, and you know, they, they do all kinds of stuff to be able to clean out their body and, and their experience. Um, so instead, like, have a conversation beforehand about what you're anxious about and what you're excited about so that you're on the same page, you can communicate. Um, I would also have a communication system of intensity, so like a 1 to 5, about like how much more you can take so that it's easy to communicate, because oftentimes I'll be pegging someone and I'm like, are you good? And their face will be kind of like, yeah, I'm okay, keep going. And I'm like, I don't think you're good. But there's like, they want to take it, right? They want it. They don't want to disappoint. They feel pressure, or they, you know, they want to push through discomfort. So I often ask people, like, on a 1 to 5, like, where are you at? 1 being, you know, like the least pain and 5 being the most pain. And so having, having those tools in place can make everything a little bit smoother. And it can allow for mistakes, it can allow for like, you know what, let's put this away tonight and try again another night, let's do something else. The other big thing is that people don't do enough warmup. You know, pegging is not a 15-minute quickie activity for most people. We need the body like super warmed up. So do the kissing, the oral, the whatever makes both of you super excited. And then by time you get to pegging, like, the anus is more relaxed. We do external stimulation, and then internal, and then pegging. So there's lots of different specific techniques that, that you can learn. And my webinars, like, like, talk through the actual specific techniques. But in general, you need that kind of stimulation, both mentally and physically, before doing any kind of anal penetration.

Yeah, completely. And also, as you say, the more it's not the main event but just part of the buffet of sexual pleasure, then if you kind of get to the point where you're all, you know, you're all revved up and you think, oh, I'd actually really like this right now, or I think I might like this, then you're gonna be more in the mindset than if you're just going straight for that where it will just take a lot longer to get warmed up, frankly. And as you say, there's other ways to relax that muscle that don't necessarily have to involve that much penetration, so that when you actually get around to doing the penetrative part, it's less of a shock to your body than if you're just going straight in. I sound like a pegging expert here, but you do.

I love it. I love it. I love it. And it's only because I've got—

I've had partners in the in the past who were, who like doing it the opposite way. So I'm just, you know, I'm just familiar with it the opposite way.

Yeah, yeah, like I really like that people will bring out fantasies to their partners that they're worried their partner might think is weird. But if we receive everything with kind of just like curiosity and not feeling like, just like, oh, tell me more, you know, like that opens up space for these kinds of communication. I had my partner said to me the other day, um, he has like— he was like, I have really weird porn. And I was like, okay, let me see. And he pulls out this porn that is using someone's dentures to like, like stroke a penis. So— and it was called Granny Gummers. And I'm like, what? What is this? And so like neither of us were like super turned on by it, but it was so weird that it like had this playfulness that we were like, huh, now we're in a playful mood. Like, let's like, you know, we're not gonna— I don't have dentures, we're not gonna get dentures, you know, but look at the creativity of people. So pegging may have been someone one day being like, huh, what if I stick this up my butt, right? What if you stick this up my butt? So who knows where your fantasies can go if we let go some of that shame of how things should look like, or like what they're supposed to be like, what if you just played, you know, like, just play and see what feels good.

Yeah, and it's funny, I have a friend, this couple friend that, and sometimes they tell me about their, the crazy porn that they find, and it's like that, it's not sexy, it's just weird, right?

Yeah.

Well, I mean, probably find it sexy.

Sure.

One person finds sexy is, is, yeah, up to them. And then I think there's a lot to be said about, you know, what happens after, like aftercare, because I think we don't talk enough about that as well. That, yes, it went— when you do something, especially something that you've not done before, and it may be a bit overwhelming to you, like what is the procedure for just making sure people are okay?

Excuse me. Yeah, that's a, that's a wonderful point because we've got like physical aftercare and then emotional aftercare. And so make sure that, like, let's say you only have a 2-hour date, so wrap things up like 15 minutes before the date ends so you have time to either cuddle, you might want to debrief, maybe just want to get hydrated together, maybe you want to have a different kind of sex. Aftercare is just kind of like bringing you back to baseline, and because we've gone so high into like all these feel-good chemicals in our bodies, we've gone into like an altered state in our minds, and we don't want to drop from that cloud just like back down. So it helps us like float back. And then the physical aftercare, so some people find that have a little bit of soreness after pegging. For— so for— there's two kinds of soreness. One is the anal soreness. You might have like a bath where you just kind of sit in a bath and allow those muscles to kind of relax with the warmth of the water. Some people like to use CBD creams to reduce kind of inflammation in the area. And for people who are doing the pegging, sometimes the vulva gets a little bit bruised from the thrusting. So if you don't— like, I have a pretty meaty kind of mons pubis, so I don't I have a lot of cushion. For some people who don't, they find that it kind of bruises the bone. So you may have a little bit of bruising that you might want to tend to before it gets worse if you know that about your body.

Yeah, and are there any specific places that you— I mean, we've got, you know, Lovehoney is probably our major toy company here, but are there any kind of specialist companies that you know about who really focus on this particular activity?

Absolutely. Yeah. My favorite, they ship worldwide. They're actually based in Toronto. They're called Unicorn Collaborators. And the reason why I like them is that I went to them like 10 years ago and I was like, hey, can you make me a thigh harness and call it the Lunacorn so that I can peg people with my thigh? Because most of the times we picture a harness being a pelvic harness. But for not everybody's body, that might not be accessible. You might not be mobile enough to do that. You might not get enough power. I've got a not a great lower back, so it's often the thrusting I'll kind of tap out at some point. But they produce thigh harnesses, hand harnesses, pelvic and boot harnesses. So you could peg anyone from any part of your body, basically. And they're all leather. They're all handmade. They're great. Yeah, great prices. Yeah.

Wow, that sounds amazing. You'll have to give me the link to that.

Yes, I will.

Yes. And yeah, and you know, how do you think that pegging and the popularity of pegging really has changed and the societal attitudes towards pleasure and masculinity? Do you think it's changed?

I think in some ways, I think, you know, whatever is considered kinky kind of changes depending on what society thinks is normal. And so anal sex has become a little bit more mainstream in heterosexual communities, but it's been mainstream in other types of sexualities for a long time. It's just sex. So we might see kind of more porn coming up about it, more like media references coming up about it. I hosted a podcast for 2 years that was just on anal sex, and it was so— I was so surprised that we could do that for 2 years. So I think there was, especially around the pandemic, people were just exploring more sexually. Around masculinity, I think whenever we see kind of a push towards more traditional conservative ideas, we see a push the other way too, where people are rebelling. And when I created the phrase, uh, peg the patriarchy, it was actually more about like a subverting the system. So kind of saying like, why does penetration have to be this way? And why don't we apply that to like other kinds of liberation as well and bring pleasure to liberation?. And so, I mean, I've had that— I trademarked that in like maybe 2015. So that's— we've seen it kind of like grow and grow and grow. And there was, you know, also kind of a push from, I feel like, young people, especially trans people and people who are questioning gender binaries and like, do they even serve us? And like, what are we doing? Like, why can't we just go with like, sex is a feeling? So go with what feels good instead of what you think you should be doing. I think all of that social society massaging stuff is allowing people to explore more.

Yeah, definitely. And I think, you know, certainly amongst young people, the idea of like, this is just for the cis community, or this is just for gay— whatever it happens to be, right? They— yeah, all of that is kind of getting very blurry now. And people are going, if it just feels good, why do we need to necessarily necessarily put a label on it. And I mean, I certainly feel that way. It's like the people that I meet now, if they say that this is something that they want to do, I don't ask them about whether they feel that their sexuality is somehow just completely changed. It's just like, you just want to have something in your bum.

That's it.

Yes, yes, yes.

Oh, I love that you said that. I teach on campuses a lot with young people, and I often tell them that what you decide to do sexually doesn't say anything about who you are. It's just what you decide to do, just like what you eat doesn't say, you know, who you are or your personality or sexuality. So they're just activities, and you are the, the, the energy through that activity. So it could be queer energy, it could be power energy, it could be sensual energy, whatever you want. It's just an activity.

Yeah, completely. I think that's quite a challenging notion for a lot of people though who associate sex with love and all of that. We don't— that's a, that's a whole nother That's another one. Yeah. But I think, you know, I'm, I, I can't believe that I've been doing this now for like 3 years and I can't believe that you spent 2 years just focusing on anal. I mean, yeah, well done you. Where was this? Did you have guests?

Oh my gosh, you know what, you can still find it. It's called The Plug, like, like a butt plug, The Plug podcast by Luna Matadas. And I had, I had a gastroenterologist. Had, um, I had sex workers on, I had prodoms, I had, uh, I think I had a therapist on. Like, I don't even know how I had someone who did like, um, like cannabis and, and butt sex and lubes. Like, it was bananas. I think we had like over 300,000 listens, and I, I was like, how, how are people like so niche? But I guess people were like butt hungry, you know? Yeah.

And I think, you know, there's a lot of people out there who would really like to do this stuff that are just ashamed or afraid or just don't know how to get started or haven't met somebody that they could potentially do it with. So I think there's a lot of voyeurs out there who are just generally, you know, they're just people that are just curious, right? They just are curious about all of this stuff.

But that's it. Yeah, yeah. And that's great. Like, that's how we keep sex novel and spice. Everyone wants to be spicy. Well, you got to stay curious.

You do. You have to stay curious. That's like basically the motto of this show is stay curious. And if you want something up your butt, then I hope you've really gotten something out of this episode. Luna, you have been a delight. I have to get you back because I only got through the first third of my questions on the page.

Yeah, I will come back anytime.

I will. We'll talk about, we'll talk about femdom. I want to talk about femdom, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna get you back to talk about femdoms. But anyway, it's been absolutely lovely to have you on. Have a wonderful, wonderful day.

Yeah, thank you so much, Suzanne. Thank you for having me.