Rebuilding Trust After Infidelity

Hi, this is Suzanne Noble, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. And over the past 170+ episodes that I've recorded of this show, one consistent theme is about the importance of communication in relationships, not only with regard to your sexual life, but with regard to so many other aspects of being in a relationship, whether it's your finances, whether it's your family, just that you're as much as possible you can work together rather than in conflict, which, you know, as we grow older, I think sometimes we do get into these patterns of behavior, which aren't necessarily that healthy, but we just get so familiar with them that it's just all we know. And that's really what I want to talk about today with my guest, Dr. Dan Snyder, who's based in North Carolina, and his expertise is really in around how do we repair and, and consider how we can improve the communication between ourselves and our partner. So welcome, Dan.

Yeah, Suzanne Noble, I'm so excited to be here. Your, your body of work is incredible. Yeah, over 170 episodes. So I'm looking forward to adding to the conversation and, and really deepening on that topic of communication so that it's not all surface-level strategies and we're actually communicating what the, what the true issue is, what the real underlying need and feelings are, not just, you know, chores, finances, like you said, but the core things underneath that.

So I'm curious to know, especially when you're in a relationship that might be one that you've been in for decades. What's the biggest challenge when you're trying to shift those very set patterns of behavior and especially around your communication style?

Yeah, well, terrific question to start us off because my website, my program is called Intimacy Shift, intimacyshift.com. So when you've been in a relationship for decades, like you said, or it's a brand new relationship, I really dial in on how to shift our intimacy so that it's not complacency, it's not kind of status quo. And a big part of that is being clear on what we actually need and actually want so we don't get caught in a cycle. We don't get caught in the blame game or talking about something that's not, not the real issue. So especially when it's sex and intimacy, it's a very personal, very vulnerable topic, and it's easy to get caught in what have I done wrong, what has the other person done wrong. And so what I really want couples to, to learn how to do and to practice that they, they may have never learned because, you know, I didn't get this in just regular school and certainly not in my house growing up, is, is how to really identify you know, what my intimate needs are, emotional intimacy and physical intimacy, and feel safe to communicate that part with my partner, you know, what I need rather than what they're doing wrong, maybe.

Yeah, and I think that can be sometimes incredibly difficult because, as you said, we didn't grow up with any of this stuff. We didn't learn it. And I suspect that we took our cues sometimes from our own parents. So, you know, if they weren't showing any affection towards each other, or if there was a lot of anger, a lot of like, you know, you did this, you asshole, you know, I don't want to speak to you for the next 3 days or whatever. This could be the way that you go into your own relationships, right? And I, and I think that therefore, we might not even know what we want.

Mm-hmm. That's, that's absolutely true. And so one of the first exercises that I love for couples to start with, it comes from the work of Drs. John and Julie Gottman, which I'm sure have been talked about on this show, but they have an exercise called the Story of Us. And it's really in the first session, first couple sessions, I'll ask couples to tell the story of their relationship. And stories are such a powerful tool in our social human relationships. The way that we tell stories about ourselves, about our partners, makes a huge difference in how we feel about them. And so often couples look at each other and they'll say, do you want to tell the story this time, or do you want me to? Because they've told this story a lot of times and they have it memorized. And, you know, that can be both good and bad. But what I want couples to do is to challenge that story. We can change it. We can adjust it. And if part of that story is we had a lot of passion when we first met and it's kind of faded over time, you know, that's what we lock in with, and that's really hard to change. And just communicating differently is not gonna, you know, change that core belief from that story. So what I want couples to think about is, you know, what else can we add to that story? It's not written in stone. That black and white memorized version doesn't include every single detail, and it may not have been updated in a long time. So for that story of us script, I want people to add some juicier add some elements for what we want to be true today. And just by framing that story differently, we can think in a whole new way about our intimate relationship, about our sex life, about who we are today as a couple. And it often needs some updating.

Yeah. And what are the things that you commonly see that people desire in their relationships, especially older people? What do they come to you with?

Yeah, a lot of the, the couples that I work with are older. And yeah, it's a mix between couples that have been together, like you said, for, for decades. And that's kind of one set of things. And then often couples who maybe are newer to this relationship, but are coming with baggage and history and a story and want to do this relationship differently. And so, uh, those are kind of the two main groups of people that I'll see coming in. And as far as intimacy goes, I mentioned earlier emotional intimacy and physical intimacy, different things that work together. So as far as emotional intimacy goes, you know, the longer we've been around, usually the more stuff we have in our suitcases, right? The more baggage we're bringing in and often can be harder to feel safe and trusting in a relationship. And so on that emotional intimacy front, I love helping couples think past what we already know about the other person and being curious to discover new things, to see the person in front of them as this really like kind of new, interesting person, even if you've known them for a long time. There's a way to shift, like I mentioned earlier, that intimacy by being curious. So I try to have people think like a detective in their relationship. Again, storytelling being powerful. So if we can tell ourselves that story, that there must be new and interesting things about this person, and I want to discover what they are, then we can ask different questions and we can discover new things. And that's really exciting and hot. You know, if I know everything about the person in front of me, it's not super passionate and exciting. But that mystery, that idea that there are new things to discover, both creates emotional intimacy, and that can drive, you know, more physical interest and desire.

Yeah, but again, as we talk about older people, and I, and I reflect myself on some of the men that I've met And just recently, I attended something here in Thailand called a munch. I don't know if you know what that is, but it's a sort of place where people that are interested perhaps in kink or alternative lifestyles get together just on a social level. And there were a few older people there, and there was one person in particular who hadn't ever been to one of these things before, and I could see you know, there's some discomfort around that, right? Especially as an older person. Like if you've never spoken about your emotional needs before, if you've never actually disclosed your desires to somebody before, if you've known somebody for upwards of 2+ decades, then revealing your own emotional, intimate, whatever needs you've got that, as you said, on the one hand, yeah, it's really exciting to be able to finally feel liberated in disclosing interesting stuff. It's also fucking scary. I mean, and I think that often when I speak to people, I am always get the sense that there's this kind of, you know, and then we do this and I think I'm, I find it scary sometimes because sometimes the desires that we have might be a bit out of the ordinary. You know, people might want to feel some sort of pain. I met someone recently whose husband wanted her to do things in the bedroom she wasn't comfortable about. There's, there's, there's a huge risk attached to that. And how do we remove that feeling, that, that scare, very real scary feeling that by telling your partner that thinks they know you so well, but actually, honey, there's a whole bunch of stuff that I really would like, you know, us to explore. How do you remove that fear?

Yeah, yeah. Well, so let's talk about— I like to think of volume knobs. Let's talk about turning down maybe the volume on the fear or on the I'm gonna share everything, right, that all or nothing, and maybe turning down the volume so it's a little bit less scary and a little bit more safe. So we can, we can toggle these knobs back and forth. So one of the things I want your listeners to know is that at intimacyshift.com, I have a free tool for them about unlocking conversations about intimacy. I have a 6-step framework that I want them to see and have. The first part, the first 2 parts really, that framework are scheduling regular time to talk in your relationship. Most couples don't have time set aside. Conversations happen in passing. They happen late at night. They happen when one person feels ready and the other person is blindsided, and it's not a good setup. So the first part is just for couples to think about this like going to the gym as a regular practice of strengthening elements in their relationship. And then the second part is about feeling more safe and confident to talk about whatever needs to be talking about. So right now we're talking about sex and intimacy. So in that second step, I have a number of different exercises and ways for couples to build safety with each other so that this can feel a little bit less scary. Over time, it'll feel a lot less scary, but at first, maybe just a little bit less scary. And so going into that conversation, I want couples to practice things like sitting down together, holding hands, taking some deep breaths, recognizing, okay, we're about to have a conversation, we care about each other. And as to human animals, right? Sitting next to someone and taking deep breaths helps us to feel more safe, settled, and grounded so that it's not, you know, kind of what you described, like this big scary thing where I haven't told this person any of this for 20 years and now I'm going to, you know, unload. There's some other issues in the relationship, you know, with that kind of setup that we want to talk about. And yeah, for the other set of people who are going to a Munch, you know, the idea there is, you know, we're here to talk about these issues. So it's a little bit of a different setup. The stakes are a little bit different talking to someone that you don't know versus a long-term partner. But yeah, if you're the kind of person listening who knows what a Munch is and has been to a Munch, then you're probably more on the excited to talk about these things than scared. But, you know, we can't, we can't be brave if we're not a little bit scared. That's, you know, from Dr. Brené Brown, who I just love. But yeah, a little bit scared is okay. That makes it exciting. Yeah.

And I, and I, and for me anyway, I quite like going to a Munch because I find that actually it's a really great way of opening up conversations that you wouldn't normally have with a bunch of strangers. And that can actually liberate you when you want to talk to somebody that you actually do know, um, to just feel a little bit more confident when you realize that you're amongst a bunch of people that are very accepting and that you can share these thoughts and feelings with them and they're not telling you they're wrong. I quite like it. Look, it's not for everybody. One of the things, a little bit of a maybe a controversial question for you. Sometimes I think about, you know, in the movies where we see people having these massive fights, right? And then they have these like passionate, like makeup sessions. Is there a time where conflict in a relationship is actually healthy?

Yeah, yeah. So big ups and big downs, right? So like that roller coaster ride in a relationship. Movies are great at showing that because it's big tension and big release. If you've been in one of those relationships, which I have, it's, it's, you know, not, not really that fun over the long term. And so, yeah, again, like that, that volume knob, right? Little bits of tension, great. Lots of tension, not so fun. And so, yeah, there's going to be conflict in any kind of relationship, just two people trying to figure out life together. There's 100% going to be tension. We still need to learn how to fight fairly and to make up well. And so fighting fairly includes all kinds of skills and habits and practices like using I language rather than you language. Those couples who are throwing out, you always do this and this, you never do this and this, the makeup is not as, as fun, right? Those aren't the couples who very quickly are hot for each other and let's have makeup sex. And, you know, we recover well. Couples that, that learn and practice how to fight fairly, how to, you know, express I feelings, you know, I'm feeling hurt or unseen, or, you know, I want this to happen differently. When we can express it that way, the repair is much easier on the back end, and repair is really fun. So yeah, that movie idea of relationships, I, I really tried to change the script from because that's you know, that's the model that I had growing up, big ups and big downs in relationships. And we get hardwired for this dopamine hit of conflict being part of what makes a relationship. And it doesn't have to be that way. Really stable and consistent and caring relationships can be just as exciting, but it takes some getting used to, like switching from a diet high in sugar and carbs to more vegetables and proteins, like, can still be a a really filling, satisfying, delicious meal, but it takes some time to get used to that switch.

Yeah, that's a, that's a really great analogy. And I think that you're right, you know, that I see people that fall into these patterns of behavior. My thing is just, you know, I like bad boys. So I always go for people who are, you know, they have a bit of drama going on, not, not necessarily with me, but just, there's just there's just drama that keeps things kind of juicy because there's never— it's, there's always some element of unexpectedness about it. But I recognize, especially through talking with people like yourselves and others, that sometimes we do have to unlearn those patterns of, you know, behavior, whether they're the type of person that you normally go for and just deliberately go for somebody completely different. Or decide, as you say, that while that high-sugar diet may be fun, in the long term, it's not, you know, it's not really healthy. But again, you know, a lot of this unwinding of very long-held beliefs and patterns can take some doing. And, you know, I always say to people, like, it's really hard to do this stuff on your own. Really hard. Especially if, like yourself and like many others, you don't have any references that are positive around what healthy relationships look like. You know, you can't just figure it out when you don't actually have a role model.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Well said. And I'll, I'll add to the conversation, you know, different types of trauma, right? Lowercase t trauma, capital T trauma. But, you know, again, going beyond like the baggage that we all carry because we, we all are bringing something in many relationships. There's bigger events, bigger hurts that very much stand in the way of emotional and physical intimacy. And, you know, many relationships have experienced some kind of infidelity, which, you know, I want to normalize. I want to talk about more. That's experience that I've had in relationships and, and so many others. And it's very taboo. It's very hard to talk about, especially if you're choosing to stay in the relationship where a betrayal of some kind happens. That's a major core wound and our bodies, which is wonderful, you know, are so good at protecting us and covering hurt and, you know, getting us to survive situations. But also, how do we, you know, rebuild trust with that person? How do we feel safe truly to be intimate with a person that's hurt us in that way? And so a lot of the work that I do is around rebuilding from big kinds of relationship trauma and not just moving past it, right? Like, you know, quickly, but learning how to, to feel safe within that relationship, maybe more than we ever did before. So I want to add that to the conversation too.

Yeah, it's really hard. Do you sometimes reach a point with couples therapy where you recognize that one person perhaps has some other significant issues that perhaps would be best be dealt with without the other person present, you sometimes take it apart and say, actually, I, I'd rather do some work with this individual on this before reconnecting with their partner, because actually it may not be helpful for the other person to be there for all the sessions.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's a mix of things that can happen and, uh, A main model that I use in therapy is Emotionally Focused Therapy, and that's the work of Dr. Sue Johnson. She has a great book called Hold Me Tight, which I highly recommend for anybody listening. And, and that model is really built around the couple as a team working through their core issues, learning how to hold space for each other in the relationship. And that model allows for pull-out work to happen. So even within the session, while two people are there, it's a really great practice for one person to be the focus, maybe for the whole session, maybe for a couple sessions. But both people can be present while one person is holding space, doing more listening than speaking, and kind of observing me working with their partner through some of these things. And it's so helpful and healing for the relationship because, you know, I don't know if you're like me, but even as a therapist, it's, it's really hard for me to listen and sit still and take in another person without interjecting or interrupting or offering my opinion. And, and so that as a practice is really helpful for couples to do. There are certain situations where one person has work that hasn't been done before or needs to be done in a different way. And doing just one-on-one work is necessary. And a lot of the couples that I've worked with appreciate being able to do those two different things in parallel with one person. Sometimes it's helpful to have have a whole nother therapist on the team. But more often than not, if I'm doing couples work and there's an individual therapist for this person and an individual therapist for this person, there's kind of too many cooks in the kitchen. And one person says, well, my therapist said this and this therapist, and we're all doing good work, but, you know, it ends up being just a lot of people with, with slightly different approaches.

It's hard to, to create that team atmosphere when we're not all together in the room at And I'm going to throw this one at you, and I don't know if you, if you'll be able to answer it, but can you think of one big aha moment that you witnessed with, with a couple anonymously, of course, where, where it just suddenly, it was like you saw that light bulb moment?

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. There's a couple that I still work with. I don't see them as often now as I did when we first started getting together, but this couple had navigated actually meeting each other very young in life, having kids, being married, and then now we're on the other side, right? Kids are grown, and only recently kind of infidelity and betrayal in the relationship had come to light, had come to the surface. They were and are very committed to staying together, but we're navigating really this big bomb that went off in the relationship. So one person who had obviously known about what was happening still a big deal in their relationship and not often talked about, but the person who's betrayed or engaged in infidelity, you know, they have stuff going on too. There's a reason for why they did what they did. They're not the main focus in the work upfront. You know, we want to take care of the hurt and the betrayed person first. But once we've established some safety there, we want to bring in the other person's stuff, the reason for, you know, why they have engaged in the behavior that they have. And so through months of working together, we did a lot of fantastic work for both people to build safety in the relationship and to understand why what had happened happened. And, you know, they've done some excellent repair work and are now coming out the other side much stronger than before because so much of what had been buried and hadn't been talked about for years has been talked about in ways that were, were healthy, that were safe. And they've made some choices in their relationship to, to stay together, but also to create more separation and more distance to allow each person to discover more about themselves. And yeah, they're maybe on version 2.0 or 3.0 of this relationship that they've known each other for a very long time. And so, yeah, even in that kind of situation,, you know, we were able to do really incredible repair work to improve their connection.

And is there, I mean, again, it's very difficult, I'm sure, for you to say, but typically when couples come and see you, is there, is there a time that you would expect to see them? You know, is it 10 sessions, 12 sessions, 6? How long do these, I know this is kind of like how long is a piece of string, right? But obviously it's like couples therapy is expensive. I've been in it and it's expensive. And in my situation, we didn't, uh, we didn't stay together because it just wasn't going to work. And I suspect, if I'm really honest, that the person that we went to see probably discovered that pretty quickly based upon what was happening in those sessions, right? But, but we did end up, I think there was about 6 or so, but do you typically see couples over a very long period over a kind of, you know, what, what would one expect if one goes to see someone and says, look, I just— things just aren't working here, and we just want to improve our communication, improve our sex life, and just get ourselves back on track because, you know, we're just not, not happy.

Yeah, that's a— it's a great and a very important question. I want there to be more transparency about this. Yeah, because it's something that everybody who's gone into couples counseling wants to know. I've also gone to couples counseling with, yeah, different levels of, of success, for sure. And so there's quite a bit of research on, you know, if your therapist is using a framework and a model, you don't want to see a therapist who says, well, I use a, you know, a bunch of different styles and it's an eclectic mix. I had a colleague who one time said, you know, if you go for brain surgery and your surgeon says, well, I use an eclectic mix of different kinds of surgical styles, you don't want that surgeon. So you want to go to a therapist who specializes in what you need help with and uses a framework that's been studied and researched and works effectively. And so for emotionally focused therapy that I use, the model is built around 12 to 20 sessions. There are couples who can come for 5 sessions and get what they needed, apply it, and, you know, go off into the sunset. There are couples who may choose to do sessions for longer. But the main bulk of the success comes from that core 12 to 20 sessions. You can see success afterwards, but if you're not seeing success within that timeframe, you're not likely going to if you continue on for longer. And that's also where the research has shown the gains stay for longer. So if you come to, you know, 2 or 3 sessions, you may see some success. It just won't be as long-lasting. And I love that that's clearly laid out and I get to tell couples a better answer than, well, it depends. Cause that's, you know, not a, not a helpful answer.

Yeah. And I noticed that on your website, there is an opportunity for people to do a course that you've created. That's a series of modules. It's quite expensive. I sent this to somebody I knew, and then I saw the price and I was like, it's kind of quite expensive. Well, for the UK, it's quite expensive. For the US, it's probably not expensive at I looked at that and I thought, oh, that's really interesting. I've never actually seen somebody that's broken down their work into a series of, you know, an online course that somebody can do without a therapist. Have you had much takeup for that and seen success?

Yeah, well, I appreciate you, you bringing it up because yeah, finding a therapist in the US is very dependent on like where you live and often what insurance you take. And so this program that I created gets us kind of outside of that where anyone can work with me. Make it expensive. So we can, we can absolutely talk about that. That's something I also want to be transparent about too, is, you know, things cost money. And often what I find in couples who want to use their insurance or want a low-cost provider is you don't get the quality of help that you truly need, and you're not quite ready to invest in yourself or in your relationship. And I'll work with couples who will show up for that 1 hour, and then I'll see them and they haven't practiced or worked on the things in between sessions. So I did choose to, you know, put a price tag for this program, what I believe my time and what this program is worth, but also so that couples find it who are motivated to do the work. And often when we pay a lot of money for something, we're more motivated to get the most benefit out of it and really squeeze out all the value we can. So that, that was intentional. And yeah, what I did with this program was I took, you know, all of the, the research, all of the learnings, and all of the work that I do with couples and condensed it into a 12-week program where I am, you know, laser focused on from that first week in the program to having couples create goals and objectives, learning skills, having homework in between sessions. And then week after week in the program, we're checking in on those goals and objectives. We're making sure that we're practicing our skills in between so that at the end of this course, you have tangible, measurable change in your relationship. And you don't get to say afterwards, well, we tried it and it didn't work and our therapist didn't help us. It's really on you as the person because there's so much that I ask of couples in that.

Well, it sounds great. And speaking of which, I know that you're based in North Carolina. Do you see people virtually as well as face-to-face?

No, I'm all online. I love being all online. Yeah, I've actually, you know, since 2017, my practice has been all online. So pre-pandemic even. And, you know, I know for myself, I love being in the comfort of my own home when I work with my therapist. You know, I get to wear what I want to wear. I can sit on my couch, I can sit outside, and I want that for my clients also so they can be wherever they need to be. I, you know, have lots of sessions where clients are, you know, parked somewhere, you know, in their car, or, you know, the two people in the relationship are not able to be in the same place because our busy schedules didn't allow for it. And so that flexibility is really important. So yeah, anybody listening that wants to work with me one-on-one as a client, I'm licensed in North Carolina where I live and Florida Colorado, and Illinois, because I've lived a few different places and have licenses there. Yeah, and if you're not living in one of those places but you've enjoyed hearing what I have to say about intimacy building, you know, please check out my website at intimacyshift.com, and at the very least, you'll get that free guide to unlocking intimate conversations.

Thank you so much, and thanks for closing out the show so wonderfully for me. So I didn't even have to do that, Dan. That was really great. Have a wonderful, wonderful day. And thanks for coming on the show.

You know, thank you for having me.