Sex, Grief, and Starting Over: Dating After Loss

Hi, this is Suzanne Noble, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. And today I'm with someone speaking about a topic that I only recently heard about, and you might have heard about it, called Widow's Fire. Well, we'll talk about it. I don't, I don't want to spoil things here. So I'm not going to spoil things. Just gonna say that we're going to talk about Widow's Fire. And we're going to talk about dating after becoming a widow. And to talk about that with me is a woman called Nikki Wake, and she herself was widowed at 49, I believe. And subsequent to that, tried to, you know, see if she could meet someone else. And in her— I'm expecting that like many of us, she discovered that online dating is a bit of a— what was it that somebody called it? A fire sale or something like that. Anyway, and she started Chapter 2 dating to to try and overcome some of the problems that widows and widowers face when they're trying to meet somebody after the death of a significant other. So welcome, Nikki.

Thank you, and thanks for having me.

And so when did you start Chapter 2 Dating?

Yeah, um, I started Chapter 2 Dating in 2022. So I was widowed in 2020. That was actually after my husband had been ill for a very long time, so he'd spent 3 years in a nursing home incapacitated a brain injury. So technically I was widowed in 2020, but arguably I'd kind of been widowed in 2017. I was emotionally widowed but technically married in my mind in 2017. So I started dating again probably in about 2021, and as you described it, you know, I discovered— so I'd met my, my husband online originally back in 2002, so I knew it worked. Wow. But, but yeah, we were real early adopters of that tech. Golden age, Nikki. Golden age. Pioneers, I like to think. And so I knew it worked. So I got myself online, but my goodness, I downloaded this thing called Tinder. And obviously online dating had changed enormously in 17 years. And it was like the Wild West, I described it actually, as you know, full of dick pics and ghosting and married men. And you know, I thought, do you know what I need? I need a widower, 'cause he would understand what I'm going through because it's quite complex. Dating as a widow, because as you know, it's, you know, there's feelings of guilt and complexities and this thing called widow's fire, which we'll talk about shortly. And, and I thought, I need someone who understands this, so ideally one that looks like George Clooney. Um, and, and so, so I thought, well, there must be a website for widows and widowers. And I went online and there wasn't, and I was sort of incredulous. And I'm an entrepreneur, I run a big events company and some of the stuff And I could smell an opportunity. And so I went out and I raised some cash and I launched Chapter Two Dating, which is our serious dating site for widows who are looking for their chapter two, their next chapter in life. And chapter two is a phrase that's used widely within the widow circle. Um, and that was great. And we had, you know, huge amounts of interest from the press and the media. We had lots of signups. It was all going incredibly well. And I was, you know, continuing to try and date, usually with disastrous effects. I mean, it's hysterical. I get quoted in the press as a relationship and dating expert, and yet my love life is, is more woeful than most. And, and actually, I realized my problem was I wasn't ready for my chapter 2. Yeah, but I was being driven almost crazy by this thing that I then discovered was called widow's fire. So widow's spite is a recognized phenomenon. You know, I thought it was just me being greedy, but actually it's a recognized phenomenon that when you are grieving, you ache for physical comfort and intimacy. I mean, if, if you think about it, I shared my bed for, you know, nearly 17 years with, with my wonderful husband. And you know, I spent 17 years teaching him how to love this body and he, and he got quite good at it in the end. And all of a sudden that is, that is ripped from him. From you and leaves a huge void and, and a physical ache and need and want. And, and this thing was raging in me that, you know, I'd kind of do anything I could to, to, to, to, and, and, and that was called Widow's Fire. And so all of this was going on while Chapter 2 was doing really well. And I thought, well, maybe, just maybe we could be a bit naughty and start a bit of a hookup for widows and widowers, um, called Widow's Fire. So we did. So, um, in 2020, June 2023, we launched, um, uh, widowsfire.dating, which is literally a hookup site for widows and widowers who are looking for casual fun. And, and actually it's quite interesting because they're all over the world, so people are using it virtually, not just for one-to-ones.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. How fascinating. Because, yeah, because what happened to me was I, I was with somebody not for, you know, for a few years, not, not for like a very long time. And he had liver cancer and he eventually died. And, and that was, and he'd come along at the end of my longish marriage, decade-long marriage, and then had a few years with him. And so I felt like I'd had a bit of a, you know, a rocky marriage and then this kind of alcoholic, crazy boyfriend. And then, and then when he died, it was like, I don't know if it was a combination of widow's fire and just being totally fed up, frankly. And also, because at that point, I was at the time that you met your husband. So my, my thing went on back in 2001, 2002, when the internet and dating was actually super fun. I mean, it was great, and I just wanted to get laid all the time in that, in that way, that Widow's Fire kind of way. And the internet was full of really interesting people back then who were very up for facilitating that for me. And so yeah, I used some hookup sites, but I didn't really— I mean, honestly, I just met so many amazing people back then and just had such a good time. And I ended up putting that into a book that became very successful.

All right. Excellent.

Did I did get my money? Everybody got their money's worth out of that period of time, but it wasn't until recently that somebody actually put the name Widow's Fire to it because I didn't know it had a name. I kind of thought in my, myself, as you said, I thought, well, it kind of makes sense that when somebody's lost, your body has the urgency to kind of almost replace the human being that has gone with—

I think it's that, but I also think it gives you a bit of a live for the moment attitude. When you lose someone, it makes you realize that actually tomorrow isn't guaranteed. And so you might not make it to a second date. Do you know what I mean? It's like, and then like, what the hell? Life is too short. And life can and does change in a heartbeat. And when you lose someone close to you, so I think a combination of the two things of the, the being robbed of the intimacy overnight almost. Yeah. And then they're like, well, what the hell? You know, why wouldn't I?

Right. Yeah.

And I've got nothing to lose almost. And I think, I think the combination of those two things is a really heady mix that, that, that drives you in a very primeval way.

Yes.

Beyond logic and sense and reason and all of those things. And, um, yeah. And, and, and therefore widow's fire is, you know, it is a very real thing. And I've spoken to lots and lots of widows and we've surveyed lots of widows. And, you know, I think something like 84% of widows we surveyed recognized that they'd had some sort of widow's fire. They hadn't necessarily acted on it, but they certainly experienced that feeling.

Yeah. And how, I mean, one of the toughest things when you're getting a dating site going because I tried to launch one several years ago, just before the pandemic called Not Dead Yet Dating.

I like it. I might steal that one.

Yeah. Look, I mean, I, I've got, I got a logo for it and everything. It looks really good. I did everything, but the problem that I had at the time, and I don't know if you, because of you starting before, before, before all of the, I don't know if you started before all the GDPR stuff, but, but basically what I found was I was gonna, I was gonna build my dating site off the back of another very large dating site's database and kind of filter out the people of a certain age group that I thought might become part of our site. And then a bunch of legislation came into the UK, the GDPR, and I couldn't do that.

And the thought of starting from scratch, the customer acquisition is, is, is one of the biggest challenges we face. Yeah.

Yeah. So that was what the tough bit for me was. Like I couldn't figure out like, how the hell was I gonna get started? So was it just off the back of all the publicity and things that got you the first users?

Yeah, I mean, we did incredibly well in the PR. So my story, I, you know, I talk very openly and very rawly about my own personal experiences of being widowed and about my sex life. And the media really loves that. I mean, my poor teenage son is mortified that his mother is regularly in the Daily Mail in the UK. Discussing her sex life. But, um, you know, he will— he'll get the inheritance one day.

You know, he can join my kids. Okay, your kids and my kids can just meet up for my kids.

Therapy group, I think. Yeah, it probably wasn't part of his plan, was it? But, um, but yeah, I know it's quite funny because my husband would be rolling in his grave quite literally at the idea of me discussing our sex life in the Daily Mail. But yeah, we got loads and loads of press and PR. I mean, there isn't a woman's magazine in the UK that I haven't been in.

Yeah.

You know, my friends had phoned me from the hairdressers in a kind of, do you know that you're in Cosmo this week? So, so, um, yeah, you know, I'm just— so this week alone I've got 3 podcasts, uh, 2 TV interviews, a radio interview. So I do a lot of PR, um, and I talk very vocally and openly, and that really helped us grow the numbers. But we also spend— we advertise a lot on Facebook, and Facebook is used a lot, as you'll know, by the slightly older generation. You know, our target market is the kind of, on average, we do have some younger widows, but on average 50-plus kind of market. And Facebook is, is a lot where those people hang out. And we're building something called the Widow, the Widow Collective, which is a community site, a not-for-profit for widows and widowers who want to be part of a community so that it's not just about dating. Because obviously we want to talk to widows very early in their journey before they even contemplate the idea of dating, to give them support. And we've, we've built this amazing database of Widows and widowers who come to us, find happiness, and then we lose a reason to talk to them anymore. And, and the Widow Collective gives us that opportunity and that touchpoint with them to keep them engaged with us going forward and to provide some really invaluable support and advice to the widow community in general. Um, you know, being widowed is incredibly isolating and, and lonely, and, and if we can create some sort of support group for that, then, then hopefully we're doing some good in the world too.

And one of the things that struck me about this, because I've spoken to somebody in the States who just basically did dating advice for widowers and widows, because a bit like you, what they discovered was that things have moved on considerably since they may have gotten married or first gotten together with their partner. And so suddenly they're in this world where you know, people are ghosting, as you say, gaslighting, you know, all the stuff that goes on, right, with dating. And they're a bit freaked out by the whole thing and they don't know quite how to behave. Have you found that along the way you've had to become a bit of a coach, like a dating coach?

Yeah, I mean, I think my members really do, you know, know they can reach out to me personally with queries. You know, I will get emails from people going, 'How do you approach this approach from this guy?' You know, 'What should I do and how should I?' And, and of course I offer advice where I can and, and help. Although, as I said, you know, it's like the blind leading the blind, really. They take relationship advice from me, although I have, I have actually, um, managed something approaching a fully functional relationship for the last 5 months. So, um, but yeah, what's this space? And actually, it's somebody I met ironically on Widows Fire. So I met him as— I, I, I had this rule that I wouldn't use Chapter 2, wouldn't use my own dating site, because feels morally wrong to be taking money off you, for example, to, to, um, to, to then cream off the better men for myself. So, so I thought, I can't do that, that's wrong. But then I was, I was away on holiday, I was in Alaska actually, and, um, and I was a bit lonely and a bit horny, and, um, I got a message from someone on Widow's Fire, and, and I thought, oh, he's hot, and you know, why not? Um, and so I, I, I arranged to meet him for a date when I was back in the UK. And, um, and, and we had, we had a good go at extinguishing old Widow's Fire, but we discovered that actually we quite liked each other. So yeah, we've been, I've been dating him. So my Widow's Fire has actually turned into what I think might be my chapter 2, which is quite a nice PR stunt. So no doubt I'll be parading after Christmas. He said, give him till Christmas before I put it in the Daily Mail. So yeah, I will do that. So, so Widow's Fire doesn't always stay as Widow's Fire. It can become something more.

No, I, and I think that's absolutely true. And I think the thing about the, I mean, for me, what I, what I enjoyed during that period of time, that early period of time, whether it was widow's fire or I was just really horny all the time, I don't know, was the fact that I, I was in a better place in emotionally to deal with to deal with men on a level that was different than I had in my youth. You know, I was, I was much more kind of mature about the whole thing and realistic about, well, you know, this is just fun. This has the potential to be more than fun. Or, you know, this isn't fun at all. So I was much more kind of discriminating in some ways around the people that I met and how serious or not so serious I wanted to take the relationship, you know, whereas back when I was younger, anyone who came along, I think I was just a little bit more like, oh my God, there's someone who likes me and this is great. Now that I'm much older, you know, it's— I'm not so impressed. If you, if you like me, that's nice, but it's like, I gotta like you back.

So I think, I think you have a greater level of confidence, don't you? And, you know, you're less body conscious, I think, as you get older, or I certainly feel, you know, much more assured in who I am. And, and, and, and that affects your whole attitude going into dating and sex. Um, I think, uh, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, that 50s is when I've hit my stride on that front. So, uh, so, so, so yeah, you know, bring it on. I think it's none of that teenage fumbling, is it? So it's much—

and of the two sites, is one more popular than the other or more successful?

Chapter 2 is more popular purely because we can advertise it on Facebook. Uh, we're not allowed to advertise Widows Fire on Facebook because Mark Zuckerberg thinks it's an adult site. And, um, and I guess it kind of is really. So that's, that's our, um, that's already restriction. I think Widows Fire would be massive if I could take it mainstream, but what we do is we recruit through Chapter 2 and then we cross-sell to our audience to Widows Fire. And then we do place some ads with other big established dating sites, allow you to run banner ads on their platforms. So we do a bit of that. Um, so yeah, definitely Chapter 2 is the bigger of the two sites, but Widows Fire is growing every day. You know, we, we have a very loyal— with Chapter 2, people tend to join, find their Chapter 2, and leave, whereas the Widows Fire audience stick around because, you know, it's an ongoing thing, is, is, is Widows Fire, shall we say. And variety is indeed the spice of life.

So yeah, so let's talk about going— backing up a bit— what some of the things, some aspects of dating that people are concerned about or should be careful about, or just some tips when you're looking for a partner after becoming a widow.

Yeah, I mean, obviously safety first is the first thing. So we try and vet every single person who joins the site. I personally review every profile because we're at the size where we can still do that, which is great. So that gives a greater degree of security that, you know, we ask people if we're not sure We ask people to verify their widow status by either giving us a copy of a death certificate or a link to an obituary or a memorialised Facebook page, et cetera. Um, although I'm pretty good at spotting, spotting a widow or widower kind of fake, um, where I can. And, um, but obviously safety first, you know, to keep all communication on site. Don't arrange to meet anybody apart from in a public place. Don't exchange numbers and never ever give anyone bank details. If anyone asks you for money, then it's a scam. I think, um, to be very— to take things slowly, I think, is, is actually a good piece of advice. I think as a widow, you're, you're almost on the rebound, you know. You've lost somebody, and, and therefore you're out of practice at dating, quite frankly, you know. And, and you do need to practice dating, you know. It's a skill. It's a, it's a learned skill. And I think very often I see widows rush in, and, you know, and they've been exchanging 5 messages, and they're in love, and they're moving to the other side of the country. And, you know, but you've never actually met, you know. And it's, it's like my My advice would be move it to a date pretty quickly. Obviously a date in a public place, in a safe place, etc. But, but, you know, I think the problem is if you end up with a pen pal for a few weeks, you can have fallen for somebody who isn't actually— until you meet face to face, you don't know if that chemistry is there. You don't know if that person is who they say they are, or if actually that photo of them is 10 years old, you know, or they're twice the size. You know, camera angles can do amazing things, can't they? Um, you know, we've all been caught out in that kind of way in the past. So yeah, move it straight fairly quickly. You know, I've got to practice flirting again. I think, I think that's the, you know, that's the bit that, you know, remember the fun, enjoy it as well. I think that's a really important thing is enjoy the dating aspect. You know, it's very easy, I think, to slip back into, um, yeah, I pulled up my, my boyfriend on this a few weeks ago. It's like, it's almost like within 3 or 4 weeks I'm sat on his sofa. It's like, well, no, I don't want to be your wife. You know, I don't want I know that's what you're missing, but that's not what I want to be. I want you to take me out and wine and dine me. And, you know, um, I, I don't want to— I don't want you to, uh, treat me like, uh, porcelain and like your wife and respect me. And, you know, I, I want you to, you know, flirt with me and, you know, a bit of fun along the way. So I think, yeah, enjoy it, have fun, but obviously stay safe. Um, I think honesty and, um, communication is key. You know, we've, as widows and widowers, you know, we've been through the mill. And we're all a little bit broken and a little bit hurt. And so don't be afraid to, to, to, to talk openly and honestly. Communication is key. As long as you're talking and honest with each other, then hopefully no one's going to get hurt. You know, please be aware that who you're dating is probably quite fragile. There'll be key dates and anniversaries and milestones, and you might be at different stages in your widower journey, you know, so I'm 8 years in, my partner is 5 years in, so, you know, he's got a whole new load. He's also at a different life stage to me, so he's got young teenagers, I've got an older teenager, you know. So being aware of all those different factors and going into things honestly, openly, and, um, and, and, you know, with good intention, I think. Yeah.

And I think, I think one of the things that I suspect can easily happen is that, and I think it can happen not just with widows, widows and widowers, but also just anyone who's been in a long marriage that's, um, that's gotten divorced, is that often people try to recapture what they had previously. And I suspect that's more true if you've, if you've lost your partner through death rather than just through divorce in that you may have had the most wonderful marriage and thought, I want that wonderful marriage back again, instead of thinking, well, what could a different kind of relationship look like at this stage of life? You know, do I, do I want to live with somebody, you know, or do I not? Do I want to, you know, do I want to go on multiple dates? Before, or do I want to be monogamous or not monogamous? And I think when I speak to people, often they just go immediately towards what they're familiar with instead of thinking about what the future might look like if it was just something totally different.

And I think relationships are totally different now than they are, than they were when, when I was originally dating, you know, so there's things like polyamory and, you know, But people don't date exclusively anymore from the get-go, you know, and all of those factors in modern dating that is so different, you know. And I can never— I can see myself never living with anyone else again, you know. It's like I've done that part of my life, um, you know, and I, I, you know, a huge respect for Woody Allen and Mia Farrow who live next door to each other for however many years, you know. I think that's the secret to a happy marriage, probably. Um, you know, I, I think, yeah, not to, not to slide back into patterns and to, and to, to kind of challenge the norm, really, I guess. And, and ask yourself very honestly, what do, what do I want next? You know, I mean, be almost selfish in your intent in the beginning of, you know, it's got to work for you. And, and you are a very different you than you were 20 to 30 years ago. And I think that's the key to building something successful.

Yeah, absolutely. I certainly find, I don't know if this is just me, but I find it seems to be that men are more drawn to wanting to go the full thing back into marriage and living together and everything. And women I know are very much like, no, no, we don't need to do that. You know, I don't need to wash your socks and your, your knickers and all that sort of stuff.

Yeah. And we also find interestingly, we surveyed, um, a big survey of all of our members and And men, when we talk about widows, we don't talk about moving on, we talk about moving forward. So you don't move on, you move forward. And it was very interesting that most men had moved forward, shall we say, within 4 weeks of the passing of their wives, whereas most women were waiting 2 years. And I think that tells you everything you need to know about the difference between men are from Mars and women are Venus. So yes, men are not very good at being on their own.

No, no, I think, well, I just think, you know, it's that women make their lives very easy often, you know, because often when women live with men, they take on a lot of the household chores and the, and the stuff that men realize when they're living on their own. Oh shit. I've got to cook my own meals. I've got to like wash my own clothes. I've got to like clean my apartment. I got to do all this kind of stuff. And they're like, when, when women were around, a lot of that was being done for them. I mean, I'm being very, you know, gender specific, because that's not always true. But in a lot of cases, especially I suspect if you're older, that women take on quite a few of the sort of more traditional roles. And so when they don't have to, I know that I, I'm certainly not in any rush to live with anyone. And Every time somebody's gotten close to either moving in without my kind of, that was a COVID situation. Somebody moved in because, you know, it was COVID and like that was going to be the easier thing to do, but very quickly deteriorated in my mind. He loved it. He loved it. Cause you know, cause I also, I think the other thing is, um, and maybe again, it's this was just specific to my relationship, but I created structure around our days. So, you know, there was breakfast, there was lunch, there was dinner, there was, there was a structure to the day that I, I was just used to. And he was a person that hadn't had much structure. So when he was given structure and boundaries, he really liked that. It just meant he knew where he was, you know, he knew what was happening. Right. So, but yeah, I think it's interesting that, that men so quickly want to get back into relationships and women are a bit more circumspect and a bit more, nah, I don't need to do that immediately.

Yeah.

Indeed. And is your current partner, would he like to go the whole moving in or is he happy with your situation at the moment.

It's interesting because my son is 18 and is heading off to university next September, and I'd always assumed that he would go to Manchester University because there's a very good fashion course here, and that's what he's doing. And then he went to London and fell in love with London, so he's going to London in September. So, um, my partner's first question to me was, so when are you moving in then? And I'm like, well, I'm not. You know, there is absolutely no way I am coming to parent a 13-year-old and a 16-year-old step-parent a 13 and 16-year-old when I'm just getting rid of an 18-year-old and about to enter the best phase of my life, you know. It's like, it's all of a sudden I've got freedom again. And, uh, yeah, you know, I mean, Finn's joking that I have a better sex life than he does, you know. So, so it is, you know, it's, it's absolutely not happening. And I think he would, because for him that would be a nice neat solution, and it would give kids— now, you know, I'm more than happy to play fun stepmummy and take them out to the cinema and theme parks, but I am absolutely not being, you know, wicked stepmother and says they do their homework. So, um, yeah, it's, it's an interesting one, but no, I have no intention of, of giving up my fabulous city center apartment and the freedom that comes with it.

No, I am totally with you on this one. You are a woman after my own heart. I was, uh, I have no intention of doing— in fact, it's even my parents have said to me after, after the guy I was with died, the first one died, they said to me, you're not, you're not having anyone move in with you again, are you? You're not going to do that anymore unless you're living in like a castle and you each have separate wings. And I was like, no, no, I'm not doing, I'm not doing that anymore. I'm not doing that anymore. You don't have to worry about that. And then of course, you know, the pandemic hit. Yeah. No, I'm totally with you. Like, especially when you, like you said, your kids are flying the nest and then, you know, someone's still at home nesting, like they can carry on doing that. The guy that I'm kind of with, he's got a son living with him who's 27 or 28 or something. And, um, I think it works for both of them. And at first I was like, oh, you know, what's happening with him moving out and everything. And then I realized nothing, nothing's happening with that. And actually they, I think, I think he just likes having the company to be honest. And, and when he wants to be by him, you know, when I want to go over, he just tells him to leave.

Yeah. Yeah.

Which is fine. It's fine. I've never met, I've never met the guy. And I'm not likely to. So yeah, it's okay. But yeah, I mean, I just think whatever works, but you know, like I said, whatever works at this stage of life, it can be quite different from what it was.

Yeah, absolutely.

When you're bringing up kids and have a family and everything. So what's your next, what's the next big step for you with, uh, with all of this?

In terms of the dating apps or? Yeah, I mean, I've just launched, um, a, a app, dating app for the sober community called Sober Love. So I'm, uh, I was, I mean, recovery, and I realized that dating sober is a challenge, and the challenge similar to that of widows and widowers. And so we've just launched that, so that's, that's all quite exciting. And obviously we've launched the Widow Collective, which is the community site. So, so yeah, keeping out of trouble, keeping busy, enjoying dating, looking forward to, um, my first kind of Christmas with my new partner. So, uh, although we're not spending the whole Christmas together, but so looking forward to the festive season. But yeah, no, it's exciting times at the moment, definitely.

Sounds great. Well, Nikki, it's been really great to talk to you.

Lovely. Thank you so much.

Good luck with Chapter 2 and Widow's Fire and Sober Love. It sounds like you've got a lot on your plate.

I do.

Can't wait to hear about more success stories and people finding love at this stage of life. I always think, you know, doesn't matter what age you are, you can always find somebody.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, thank you for having me. It's been a delight to chat.

Thank you.

Thanks.