Sexual Justice, Pleasure, and Health with Marie Morice

This week's episode has been sponsored by Oh My Bod, shifting the evolution of pleasure. Hi, this is Suzanne Noble, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. Today we're going to go very topical because It is coming up to World Sexual Health Day, and I'm here with someone I've spoken to before, Marie Maurice, who— God, we spoke so long ago. I think you were actually just getting started, Marie.

That's right.

Since then, we've run into each other at like Mind Body Spirit Festival and discovered we have mutual friends, and I feel like I know you so well. So welcome back. How's life?

Yeah, well, thank you so much, Suzanne Noble Noble.

Exactly.

I mean, it was at the very beginning, I think about a couple of, I would say a couple of years ago.

Yeah.

Now it's going really well. I mean, we were just talking offline about the kind of backlash that's happening, you know, sort of everywhere at the moment on sexual health and reproductive rights. So, so, so I'm even more geared up to, to really do something about this. So I'm excited to tell you about it and tell everyone.

Yeah, so the theme this year is sexual justice. And I want to— let's talk about sexual justice. I mean, how do you define that?

Yeah, so for me, sexual justice is, you know, so obviously everyone has their own definitions, right? But it really means that everyone has the right to sexual health, sexual pleasure, and also sexual autonomy. That's a really kind of, you know, big theme. So no matter what their age, their gender, their identity, and so what it means for people in midlife and later life, it really kind of, I think, matters deeply because often, as we've discussed before, and I know as you're working towards that, society is kind of often assuming that, you know, sort of desire is kind of fading after a certain age, that we have this expiry date. And so this is really kind of highlighting the, the sort of the element of intimacy and pleasure remaining vital for our wellbeing, our confidence, and connecting with other people throughout our whole life. So that's, that's the, that's how That's how I see sexual, sexual.

Yeah. And I think you're right there. What I hear is that when it comes to older people, and I've got to talk actually next week to a, to a group of junior GPs to talk about aging and intimacy issues with a doctor of sexual function. That is also somebody that you might know, Dr. Ali Mears. And so she and I are going to, are going to talk to junior GPs because As you say, the assumption is that older people either don't have sex or, or maybe the word don't have a right to isn't really the right way of phrasing it, but often it feels that way.

Yeah.

I have to say it does feel that way. Like, why should it matter to you? You're not, you know, you're not going to have babies or anything anymore. And similarly, I think it's even worse for older people that are LGBTQ. Frankly, I think that they get even more sidelined than heterosexual older people because they don't get considered at all, I suspect.

Absolutely. I mean, that's not even a conversation, you know, and this, it's, it is crazy that this intersectionality is never really so far outlined. And I think, you know, for me, the sexual justice that we've just sort of talked about is inseparable from wider struggles for like gender equity, of course, but LGBTQIA+ as well, right? And then, and then the disability inclusion as well, which is talking about the autonomy of who has a right to sex. I remember when I was training with SCU, Sex Coach U, to become a clinical sexologist, there was this whole conversation which I found fascinating about, you know, who has access, who has a right to sex, and, and who actually decides. And that's really what we're talking about here with sexual justice. That's one element. And I think, you know, if you think women, for example, navigating menopause in the workplace, or a queer person aging without support, or someone living with disability who face added barriers to intimacy. This is what we're sort of, you know, looking at. So justice means acknowledging this intersection, so, and this intersecting realities, and removing the stigma at every layer. But that's— there's a lot of work around that.

Yeah, I mean, a few weeks ago I had Maria Cindy on the podcast. We've spoken before as well, who is, um, has a disability. And one of the horror stories she told me that I've retold to other people who are equally horrified is the fact that when she went to get a cervical smear, because she was in a wheelchair and they couldn't get a position to, to get the sample that was ideal, they said to her, oh, we're not sure that we really got it, but it doesn't really matter because you're not having sex anyway. And said, well, let me tell my husband and my two kids that and see how they feel about that. And she and her husband do have a very active sex life. And they, and they, you know, they work on all their, their, it's very strong. And so, you know, that assumption, she just said she was just horrified and shocked. And I suspect that kind of conversation goes on all the time, all the time, all the time.

I mean, it's outrageous to sort of, you know, even know that that's actually happening. But it does happen. I mean, I've had one of my clients, one-to-one client, obviously, it's all anonymous, but that person has sort of some, some neurodivergent, and they were saying that they were getting the same kind of discourse sort of saying, oh, we're actually, you're not really going to be sexually active. So it doesn't really matter if you're up to date with your, with your— seriously, are we real here? You know, so this is what we're talking about. We shouldn't be even having this conversation. But sadly, you know, We're talking about sort of basics and foundational rights here.

Yeah, but it's interesting. Had on the flip side, I was yesterday, I did a presentation to a group of clinicians at a big London hospital. And afterwards I cornered this nurse because I've got this little booklet that I put out called Sex Toys for Thriving in Later Life. And it's a, it's my little booklet that is all my favorite toys for men and women. And some of them deal with sexual health issues and some of them are more pleasure around pleasure. And all different sorts of things. Anyway, I wanted to know if they wanted this for free that they could give to their patients who might be having erectile dysfunction or whatever. And she said, this nurse said to me, look, we give them a questionnaire before they come in. This is usually when they've come in for some sort of surgery, right? And we give them a questionnaire and we ask them questions around their sex life during that questionnaire, like all sorts of sex and relationship related questions. And then afterwards, and a few months we ask the questions again, so we can see what's happening in their relationship, what's happening in their intimate life. And most of the men— this is men, not, not so much women, because they deal more with the kind of prostate side of things. He said most of them don't want to talk about it. And they kind of brush it off. And they go, yeah, yeah, it's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's all good. It's all good. And she's like, are you sure it's all good? And then I said, well, if you have this booklet, would that help? Because— and she said it would help a lot because these people often, they brush it under the carpet. So I think there's a mutual responsibility. When we talk about sexual justice, I always think we have to advocate for our own sexual health, and the people that we're speaking to have to be trained in understanding how to talk to adults about sex and sexual health and relationships, because if they don't feel comfortable And that's also what I hear. Doctors don't feel comfortable. Patients don't feel comfortable. So how do we open up the dialog so that everybody— how is— how's the world— how's World Sexual Health going to deal with this stuff?

Yeah, I mean, this is— it's a— it's a massive kind of question, but I completely agree with this sort of duality or mutual, mutually exclusive sort of almost fear to be talking about death in a way that's, that's going to be fairly open-minded and natural and also sort of part of our broader sort of healthcare options, right? So I think it's Emma Thompson recently who said, you know, sex is such a good thing that it should actually be part of the NHS. But there's something about that here, which is how do we kind of, within the kind of healthcare system, start integrating in the way that you're doing with your leaflets and really integrating sort of safe and shame-free information really for all.

Yes.

But also, you know, so throughout the lifespan. So because I think, you know, we, what we do see is we, I mean, not necessarily always very comprehensive, but you'll have during puberty, you know, most kids will have access to some kind of education and then, and then it tends to disappear for adults, you know. And I keep saying to people, I'm a sex educator for adults. Ultimately, that's how I define the work I'm doing, whether it's one one-to-one, in groups, or, you know, but how do we kind of, uh, and I think working with the healthcare sort of, uh, sort of practitioners, it's going to be, is fundamental to kind of keep going. Because I was talking to one GP the other day who was saying they get trained on women's health, and this is not just about sexual and reproductive health, for just half a day throughout the curriculum.

Oh, I was told menopause is 6 weeks.

Yeah, but that's the new, that's the new one. But for, for her, I think for that person who was, you know, so probably trained about 20 years ago. Yeah, yeah. So there's a lot of work to be done.

Yeah. And I think also when we talk about sexual justice, another aspect of it is, of course, the cultural differences that arise. So we've got on the one hand, we've got gender, and then we've got sexual preferences, and then we've got culture. And, and often, I mean, the group that I was in yesterday was an incredibly multicultural group of clinicians and from all different backgrounds, who will have had all different kinds of information suggested to them when they were younger around what was and wasn't acceptable when it comes to sex, right?

Yeah.

I mean, some of these people come from like Asian background, they all different, all different kinds of attitudes towards sex, sexuality, all of this kind of stuff. So how much— and I know you know, it's again, it's a lot of the work that we all do. How much do we bring our own biases into these conversations? Because I think that's a strong part of what goes on is people either don't talk about it because they're ashamed and they don't want to talk about it, or the doctor's ashamed and they don't want to talk about it.

And then if you got both parties kind of, you know, sort of feeling ashamed, then, you know, you're going absolutely nowhere. It's really interesting as well around what you said on the prostate, you know, specifically if we take that as an example, because has implications not just from a, you know, sort of sexual and reproductive sort of aspects, but also from potentially, you know, cancer. And it's very, very sort of kind of prevalent for, for males' health at a particular time of their lives. But yet there's so much stigma around it. And that kind of cultural stigma, I think, is a huge thing, especially in sort of particular specific communities. I was speaking at an event last year, uh, you know, sort of, uh, on Black women, specifically on menopause, and a lot of them were relating that, you know, sort of that barrier, if you like, is very much there as well for some of the people in their community who identified as male and will have a real issue talking about, you know, prostate-related kind of conversations. So I think this is just one example. Of course, you know, it's not picking up on that specifically, but that's something where, what do you do? So how do you kind of start introducing that conversation? When there's a health element as well. And that's where practitioners, as you said, maybe it is about— there's a kind of group, a healthcare group as well in Southwark that I'm part of, which is really sort of targeting people who are from certain communities and matching them, if you like, with people, with healthcare doctors who will be part of that sort of group as well. So there's that conversation happening. That might be easier, you know, sometimes. Yeah.

Yeah. I think it's, it's very useful. I mean, one of the women yesterday, this nurse, when, cause we were talking about unreliable erections, she said, what about men with cystic fibrosis? Because there's, I think I'm right in saying that within the Afro-Caribbean community with men, there's a much higher percentage of men with cystic fibrosis and erectile dysfunction is one of the areas that's impacted when you've got that. And it was something I hadn't even considered, heard about. It was the first time she brought it up. It was a South London hospital. Obviously, there's a bigger community there, bigger Afro-Caribbean community there. But so again, there's all these sorts of things going on. So when, when this great World Sexual Health Day— when is it actually?

Exactly. So today is the 3rd of September. So it's tomorrow, the 4th.

Oh, it's tomorrow. Oh my gosh. Okay.

But also it's every day, right? So I think the way, you know, WAZ sort of work on it, and WAZ is this big kind of, as you said, you know, organizations that's very much under the umbrella of WHO, so the World Health Organization, to kind of get all the people who work on sexual health, on reproductive health, people like yourself, you know, all the self-educators, all the, all the, all the cool, the cool people, I think, working on those topics and really sort of, you know, trying to sort of kind of flag the flag for all of this. And so they, they've introduced this idea of having a day every year that really sort of highlight, you know, sort of sexual health sort of issues. And this year, it's, it's, as we said, it's about sexual justice. So it is tomorrow, but there's loads of things that people can do throughout the year as well on this.

Oh, well, I can make little cute animated video clips from this Riverside thing. So maybe tomorrow, just as a one-off, I'll make some fun little social media clips. I know that one of the things that were talked about in light of World Sexual Health Day was actually about climate and sexual justice. And I'm interested to know how How does climate emergency intersect with reproductive and sexual justice, particularly for women in marginalized communities?

Yeah, so it's again, this sort of intersection that's really a major thing. So first of all, sort of climate emergency, so in a nutshell, obviously I'm sure everyone's sort of well aware of that, but our planet is not just heating up, but actually the sort of the broader climate system is actually sort of changing as a result of man-made emissions, so carbon emissions. That's roughly what climate is all about. It's obviously super complex. And this sort of emergency, which is, you know, as the climate is changing, it's impacting obviously our ecosystem, it's impacting our ways of living, and of course our ways of living are also impacting climate. So it goes both ways. One thing we rarely talk about, or a little bit, is about the impact on health. So when we talk about that, we think about, let's just say malaria, for example, you know, so there might be more, more, more kind of an increase of, let's say, mosquitoes and therefore, you know, malaria. I mean, I'm oversimplifying, but one aspect that we rarely ever talk about is the impact it's having on women specifically within that kind of, you know, sort of health spectrum where, for example, you know, an example is in Bangladesh with sea level rising, which is a direct kind of impact of climate change and extreme weather events. It's a very flat country. So what's going to happen with sea level rising is that there's going to be less and less land that's going to be available for agriculture. And so as a result, farmers, we already see that, might end up losing their income and therefore marrying their girls even younger than they are at the moment. So that has a direct impact, for example, on the sexual health and reproductive health of of those women or those girls. It could be losing access to contraception. It could be having to kind of go and fetch water even further out and being, you know, sort of taking the risk of being sexually assaulted. So it's maternal, you know, sort of healthcare and so on. So it's really sort of starting to link, you know, sort of what's happening with a changing climate and a changing planet and the impact it's having on women specifically and amplifying basically those inequalities that we've just talked about already.

Sure, sure. It's something I, I hadn't really considered. And I suppose the other thing is that just as, um, you know, funding— we were talking before about how funding is being reallocated. A lot of sexual healthcare services are losing their funding, and we're seeing that access to funding and access to sexual healthcare services in general is becoming more and more challenging. And I think, you know, certainly what I'm seeing, just, you know, anecdotally, is that it's almost impossible now to get an STI test as an older person. Like, you have to get these self-testing kits. I've got, like, I've got them in packages above me. Like, they're like my emergency boxes, right? It's little, these little emergency boxes that I have that I've had for a while, just in case I decide, you know, like I think, oh, I really need to do that. But it's, as an older person, I can tell you that actually doing those testing things when I was used to doing, having, going to a clinic and having somebody else do them for me, taking my own blood, all that kind of stuff. It's not actually that easy. It's really, it's really not that easy. And I suspect, you know, as the rate of STIs amongst over 50s is increasing, and we're not getting any access to like face-to-face meetings anymore with healthcare professionals that we're all having to become very au fait with how these little boxes of tests work.

Yeah.

It's not actually that simple. Like I don't know if younger people find it any simpler, but I can tell you, I do not find it that simple. And I consider myself to be quite a clever person, but I'm like, "Oh God, did I get it?" And then, you know, you send it off. So I think, you know, we're seeing the displacement or lack of access to healthcare care. We're seeing how that affects sexual health and reproductive rights as well. So in your new role at the Women's— it's the Women's Environmental Network that you're on. Congratulations. What projects and initiatives are you most excited about?

Yeah, so there's two, you know, so I've mentioned climate and of course, you know, the other aspect which has been defined by the UN as one of the top priorities as well is chemical pollution. So, you know, so if It's all about the different harmful chemicals that are very much in everyday products, so cosmetics and household items and the water that we drink. And so not only we're changing the planet, but also we're changing the way, so, you know, we expose ourselves to, to all those, those different substances. So I'm going to be specifically focusing on how those harmful chemicals are impacting women in general and women's health and, and kind of linking it to, to climate as well. So it's going to be really the intersection, plus, you know, so focusing on marginalized communities. So it's very exciting because I think for very long, and including myself, you know, the last 20 years I've worked on climate change, but it's always been quite siloed. And, you know, the last 3 years on health and women's health. And so bringing together, I'm so excited I can't even talk or speak, but it's going to be very exciting to kind of have this kind of brought into one umbrella. And because it has, you know, chemicals as climate change, long-term impacts on our fertility, on menopause, on menstruation, all of those different aspects of women's life as well.

Or are you going to be looking at women specifically, at women's intimate health products, which are a nightmare?

Exactly. In fact, we have— WEN has a campaign called Environment's Struggle, which is focusing on exactly that. You know, we've just found there's a lot of research already saying that there's heavy metals and kind of hazardous chemicals in most of our menstruation products, and that includes tampons and actual sort of pads. So what's— what we're going to be working on is to advocate at policymakers level. So that means basically politicians that are sort of driving those regulations and really sort of pushing for them to do something about it, how they're going to protect the public from that.

And I'm curious to know how a lot of the, you know, we've got this whole— the other day I was in my local Boots, even my local Boots in Kilburn. Has now got an Estée Lauder shelf, right? You've probably— have you seen this? This kind of like shelf, right? Which is their menopause, their menopause product shelf. And I was looking on that shelf, like thinking, I'm not sure I'd go near most of those products, frankly. And I'm shocked at the fact that they've— I mean, I'm kind of not shocked in one way, because there's a commercial reality to targeting women who are desperate for any products that are going to help them overcome any menopausal symptoms. Right. Just, there's just a commercial reality with that that I get. But on the flip side of that, the lack of due diligence that's going on around that shelf, I have to say, I mean, I think there was one product that was like, was it like body wash or shampoo, like hair shampoo? And I was like, come on, guys. Seriously?

Absolutely. And that's, that's exactly the crux of it is that, you know, at the moment it's the onus. So first of all, you know, the UK has actually left, as we know, you know, it's left, uh, so the EU regulation or post-Brexit. So it's kind of recreated its own little system called, uh, UK REACH. And that's about the, the sort of registration and sort of assessment, if you like, and authorization or not, or restrictions of those chemical chemicals. And what's difficult is that the onus is on the manufacturers or the importers of those products. It costs a fortune for the industry to actually register the use of the substances. So what tends to happen is that we end up with those products without actually sort of knowing what's on there. I'm not quite sure— I've heard of that Menopause Union sort of tick, and it's great that it's been sort of tagged, if you like, as one of the, you know, green menopause, all of those things. But behind that, what we need to be able to sort of say is that, you know, sort of the chemicals within those products are not endocrine disrupting. And, and I think most of them are. Yeah.

Yeah, I do too. And I know that, you know, I'm not, I'm not a chemical specialist, but I know that there are certain substances and I've got a list of them and they're the list that I, and I've posted that list numerous times of, of chemicals to avoid in lubes, for example. And 99%, 90% of the lube that's on the shelf themselves has got some of those chemicals in it, right? They just do. And yeah, and I'm, and I'm just a normal consumer and I'm stunned that somebody working at Boots who's got far more access to all of that data than I do is not capable of looking and going, look, we'd love to take this, but you're going to need to remove this, this, this, and this. Yes. Right. Because, because it's dangerous and it's not supporting women's health.

Exactly. And that's what's really hard. It's hard to kind of regulate, you know, such a complex industry because you move from a manufacturing to then the actual retailers and so on, but there are ways to do it. And you know, so some countries do it really well. And so that's, that's the challenge, but also to kind of inform as exactly as you said, this part of it, which is advocating at a policy level, and then the other is is letting the public know in the way that you're doing and kind of having that availability and accessibility of information of what products are chemical-free or less chemical. I mean, if you think of sex toys as well, you know, so a lot of them got phthalates, which is the kind of substance that enabled the kind of bendiness, if you like. And, you know, we all like that. But it's also— there are alternatives to kind of thinking what might they be?

Yeah, yeah, completely. I mean, look, sex toys have come so far since I first started testing them out years ago when they used that terrible rubber that used to flake off in your vagina, which was really bad.

I know, I know. I remember working for WWF 20 years ago, and we were teaming up with Anita Rodrick at the time, you know, so, uh, later and, um, that Dame Anita Rodrick and her daughter sort of started this, right? And I remember going to my CEO at the time saying, well, we've got this partnership, you know, working on chemicals with— and he was like, we can't, we can't have dildo as part of this. So that was hilarious. But already they were thinking about Coco de Mer as having kind of sustainable sex toys. So it's definitely sort of improved, I agree, but there's more to be done.

Yeah, for sure. And you've also, um, do something called the Pleasure Atelier. What is that?

Yeah, very good question. So, you know, it's— people are going to be listening to this thinking, oh my God, it's so grim. Here we go, climate and funding and Trump. And, but today is something sort of, you know, thinking about— for me, it's not just about sort of— it's about complementing and kind of keep focusing on pleasure because I've worked on climate change for 20 years and I really want to kind of continue focusing on pleasure is also political to me and it's not just about survival, but it's also about thriving. So it's the Pleasure Atelier is basically in a nutshell, workshops where women of usually midlife and late life can come together and sort of reclaim their access to pleasure, wellness, and kind of create that resilience and advocacy. And as you said, you know, the ownership of our sexual health. As well. I think that's, that's super important. So we'll touch— we touch— I touch a little bit on sexual health, but it's mostly about stuff, you know, our relationship to pleasure. And it lasts 2 to 3 hours, and I host them on a kind of, you know, quarterly basis when I've got people, you know, wanting to come. It's really kind of usually very, very lovely, a lovely group of women coming together.

Yeah. Oh, that sounds awesome. I really enjoyed that. We should have started the conversation.

Yeah, exactly. But we could do more about that as well. And yeah, We have to do one together. So there's so much to be done in that space.

Yeah, we should do that. And cause I saw that you were doing one a few months ago that I wanted to come to, but I wasn't, I wasn't available. And, and I'm assuming it's just, it's mainly kind of like talking and just.

Yeah, exactly. So, so I mean, so just to clear, you know, clarify for people who might think, oh my God, I don't want to get naked. It's not about that.

I did think about that.

Well, that's another type of workshops. This one is very much about talking about sex, but not about your sex life specifically, you know. So what you, what you'll have is actually a journal, and then people can have, you know, sit down and write down what it actually means for them and for their sex lives. But they're not kind of asked to, to share in front of people unless, you know, they want to, because usually people don't know each other. And also we know how sometimes people feel uncomfortable to do that. So it's education about our beautiful vaginas and vulvas, and it's all about how to access The Essence of Pleasure. And it's about talking about masturbation. And it's talking about yourself changing the sexual scripts. And I do a little bit about history, or herstory, I should say, around, you know, female pleasure over the centuries as well. So it's fun.

Yeah, it sounds really fun. That sounds really great.

Well, let's do one together. I'd love to invite you. And then we can— yes, yes.

Yeah, we do that. So yeah, as we're coming to the end, sadly, of our 30-minute conversation, but so much is happening. I mean, I think it's so exciting, all the different things that you're doing and to see you blossom in this area. Cause I think the last time you just come out with your book or your book was just about to come out. So that's how that's now out in the world.

Yes.

It's partly autobiographical.

Exactly.

So if anybody's listening to Marianne thinks, I wonder what she gets up to in her private life.

Well, there you go. You got that. Go and knock yourself out, so to speak.

We can publish a little link to your book. And we've got the Pleasure Atelier coming up. And of course, World Sexual Health Day. So happy World Sexual Health Day, everybody. I might just have to add an extra day in my diary for— I don't normally do sex on a Thursday. Everybody knows that it's Sunday. It's always Sunday.

You might have to change that.

I might. I just might have to. I got a new toy the other day. I'm just going to show you because I got I get quite excited, you know, I get sent all these toys, but actually this one for everybody, it's called the S5 Jovi. And it's the first time I've actually seen one that goes around the cock and the balls. And I'm like, and it's got the snaily bit at the top. So I'm quite excited about that. So maybe that's my World Sexual Health Day present.

I think it is. I think it is. Yeah. And then test it out for us and then let us know how it goes.

I'm going to, I'm going to. I'm very excited about that.

It's amazing. And that's why we need to keep, you need to keep having the fun as well, even though, you know, those are important times and we need to kind of do both, I think. So that's, that's why I'm excited to, to be driving both at the same time, for sure.

Yeah. Look, at the end of the day, all of this is just talking about pleasure, right? I mean, you know, it's about the right to pleasure and it's about having pleasure. And that's it.

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, that's so true because the right to pleasure is not about, you know, I'm entitled to it. It's, you know, access to it and access to it.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And everyone can have that.

Everybody. If you've got a right hand or a left hand, you can do it. Yeah.

And even if you don't have a hand, in fact, because I got sent as well a toy that's amazing. I don't have it right now with me, but you basically sit on it. So even if you are not, you know, of and abled, you could still surf.

Oh, is it the one that looks a bit like that?

Yeah, like flat and yeah, yeah.

So it's really exciting because, you know, I gave that to a friend of mine. Did he give it to you?

Oh no, I had it from someone from the— no, it was a new, it was freshly packed and I got it, I got it from France actually, from Passage du Désir, and they do a lot of work around accessibility for less able people and so on. So it's, it's really quite cool.

Yeah, yeah. No, I gave it to a French guy.

I thought maybe— There you go. So maybe it's gone around.

I thought maybe he gave it to a French woman.

Maybe, maybe it's like pass it around. That's hilarious.

That would have been a coincidence, actually. Anyway, it's been lovely to talk to you. And I hope that we'll get to meet up soon. Yeah, yeah.

I would love that. Thank you so much for having me.