Still Getting Real: Dr

This week's episode has been sponsored by Oh My Bod, shifting the evolution of pleasure. Hi, this is Suzanne Noble, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. And lots of people have written to me in the past and more recently saying, when am I going to speak about sex in your 70s, in your 80s? Because I tend to focus a lot, probably because I'm in my 60s, with people that are menopausal, people that are, you know, in their— in the early part of their later life, shall we say. But I'm aware that this is a really big topic, and that things do change as we age. And we can't lump everybody together that's like 50 to 90 and say that they're all in the same group, because there are changes that occur in the body, changes that occur, you know, as, as we age. And today's guest is going— we're going to talk about that. And I'm incredibly excited to talk about that because she is somebody who has quite an amazing portfolio of work. I mean, if I was to read it, we'd still be here after 30 minutes. But her name is Dr. Suzanne Campbell. She's a psychologist, a relationship coach, the bestselling author of 11 books on relationships. Including Getting Real: The Couple's Journey, the Everything Great book, and the book that we're going to talk about a bit today, From Triggered to Tranquil. She's been on CNN, she's been on Good Morning America, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We could go on and on and on here. Let's just say that she's got amazing credentials and she also happens to be herself a woman in her 80s in a relationship with an age-appropriate man, also in his 80s. And so we're going to talk a bit about that and about that relationship and how it's informed some of her interest in this topic about sex and relationships in later life. So welcome, Susan.

Thank you, Suzanne Noble. Glad to be here.

Yeah, and I'm so glad that the amazing Susan Bratton has introduced us. So yeah, I mean, I'm curious to know about this relationship that you're in, and when it started, how it started, where you met.

Good. Well, I think we only started 11 years ago. So this was— and I'm 84 and he's 87. So you can do the math. You know, we were both in our mid-70s and we went online to a dating site called Senior People Meet. So we figured, you know, let's admit it, we're pretty senior. Like you alluded to, we're the senior seniors. And it was really a strong attraction as soon as we met at this coffee shop after talking on the phone for maybe a month, you know, because I had a trip to Europe and I had a whole bunch of stuff before I was feeling ready to meet. So we kind of knew each other pretty well before we even met. And I kind of like to do that. I like to just talk for a while so I can get the person's coordinates. But as soon as we met, we had a pretty strong attraction, although we were still seeing other people. So we wound that down. I mean, we're really like good daters, both of us. We don't mind the internet dating. A lot of people complain about it. I've met even in my 70s, I've met many really attractive, wonderful people, men on those dating sites. Senior People Meet is no longer around, but it's now called Our Time.

Oh, Our Time. I've been on Our Time. Yeah.

If you want to check that out. Yeah.

So MyMatch.

Yeah. So I will say there's a, there's a big difference between, you know, 10 years has made a big difference in our sex life. We'll get into that a little bit. But you just asked sort of the bare outlines. But, you know, when you say 60, I mean, there's such a big difference between 60 and 80. And I'm even going to say there's a big difference between 80 and 84.

Really?

That's interesting. Yeah. So, you know, things change a lot towards this senior, senior time. And there's a lot of loss that people have to come to terms with. For me, I deal with change rather easily, and our communication is excellent. So we're able to talk and laugh about some of the changes. So that's— and we know we still have a sex life, but right now it doesn't include penetration, but it's still extremely pleasurable for both of us.

Well, and I'm really— I'm very different when it comes to online dating because I'm very much about meet them quickly. Because I think that the attraction is something that you don't really get until you actually meet someone. And yet you decided not to. You decided— was that because you were living far apart to start with, or you're— that was just like one of your ground rules? Like, I'm going to get— I'm going to get to know this person a bit first?

Yeah, it was one of my lessons learned because sure, attraction can be there, but I want to know a lot of other things about the person besides attraction. I mean, attraction is the hardest thing to find. I will say that. But for me, the person, the person's good person-ness and how they've handled money, how they've handled their past relationships, what's their, what's their relationship history. You know, their attitude about being a dad, their work, their commitment to life, to the world, to growth. Growth is a big thing. Somebody who can adapt and change as we go through life. So I really was putting attraction— I mean, I wasn't putting it second in terms of my values, but I feel at this stage I've learned at least about myself. Yeah. I mean, the man I dated before, Peter is my partner's name.

Yeah.

You know, we just, you know, hopped into the sack the first time we met. And, you know, and it actually went on for 3 years. And it wasn't a bad relationship. But it wasn't a good match lifestyle-wise. See, so I needed to get some of those other foundational things found out before I risked being so attracted to him that I just, you know, go off into the sunset.

And are you actually living together as well? Yes. Oh, you are. And did that happen fairly quickly after you'd met?

One year. He moved in and we lived about 45 minutes apart at the time. And it just so happened that he sold his big ranch up in Healdsburg, California. And you know, was looking for a place to live. I mean, it was all kind of planned that he would move in with me, but then I didn't even have to move or anything. And I just want to say, Suzanne, that a lot of my girlfriends have later— late— have started relationships in later life, and the men have relocated to the woman's home. That's just my particular circle of friends. It's so interesting, like about one of us, you know, if we look around the room and all the couples, the men came to Sebastopol, California. So you have all kinds of stereotypes that you're going to have to disrupt your life to have a relationship. And as we get older, we don't really like disrupting our lives. I think I didn't have to do that. And you don't in a lot of cases.

Yeah, I mean, look, I've been to Sebastopol and it's absolutely gorgeous.

Draw in and of itself.

I met some guy— I, the last time I was there was, just as an aside, was for a cousin's wedding in Sebastopol because I have a— I have family on the West Coast and I just kept joking with people that I needed to meet a guy who owned a vineyard there so I could spend 6 months a year in, in the Napa because it is beautiful. I mean, you know, not It's always a bit different in this country because of course, if I was, you know, not everybody has the capability to move to London. I don't necessarily want to leave London. So I think you're right there. You don't necessarily have to disrupt your life. And I have a very good friend and she and her partner have been together over a decade and they're 6 hours drive apart and he's now in his 80s and she's in her 70s. And they're still doing this commute. Yeah. Not, you know, I mean, not every week, but, you know, it still goes on. So I think we can, we sort of have this assumption, don't we, that either, as you say, there's going to be this massive upheaval because two people have got two homes and what's going to happen. But all of these things can be worked out. And as you said, it doesn't mean you didn't have to disrupt your life. Like he, willingly moved in and yeah, why not?

Yeah. And, you know, at our age there's a lot of different ways to be a couple.

Absolutely.

You don't have to live together and all the other rules that you might have had when you were 30, you don't have anymore, at least hopefully. Or if you do have them, let them go.

Yeah. Yeah. And I, yeah. And I think that again, that designing a relationship at this age is whatever you want it to be. Yeah, it's just whatever, whatever works for you. But I know that for, as we've sort of, you know, alluded to, it's not always that easy at this age to meet someone and to find someone at this stage of life. And there are people who are afraid of online dating still. Even though young people, you know, think it's a very normal way to meet. What, what is your advice to them in it for people reentering relationships, especially sexual relationships at this stage?

Mm-hmm. Well, where you need to be able to go out of your house. If you don't like online dating, I will say one thing though. Consider online dating as just a good practice for being yourself at this stage of life and telling the truth about yourself. Rather, because I think you kind of need to have some low-stakes relationships to help you prepare, especially if you've been out of the dating thing for a while. You need some practice relationships. So I think if, if I could convince you of this, which I I know I can't just convince you to let go of your fears and all that rejection stuff that, you know, many of us do have. Yeah. But if you could, because I've written this book, Truth in Dating: Finding Love by Getting Real, and it's relevant for people at any age, but it puts out the concept and the value that internet dating is a low-stakes type of relationship. You know, you don't even have to meet anybody, but just that practice of speaking about yourself and so forth. So then let's say you, you know, feel confident enough in your own skin to go out to social events. You have to get out of your house and meet people. But it's, of course, harder because you don't know if somebody's available or not and that sort of thing. So you really have to be quite a bit bolder, you know, and go ahead and be bold. You know, like right now, I'll go out to a coffee shop or something not to look for love. I'll just go for coffee. But I'll see a single guy, you know, sitting there and I'll, I'll just fantasize, could I just go over and sit next to that guy? No. Do I have that kind of confidence or playfulness or ability to handle rejection, whatever those things are that you need to just say, hey, you know, you're sitting here by yourself and you're not looking at your phone. Which is, you know, which is to me a very attractive thing. Do you want somebody to communicate with and talk to while we're both having coffee here? And no, just that, nothing else. And, you know, like, that's a fantasy role play that I'm offering for people. I could, I could do it. But I've had a lot of success in relationships. And of course, there have been many. I'm not, I'm not one of these people that been married for 30 years to the same person. That wasn't my path. I've had 4 really good serial marriages.

All right. Wow. That's pretty impressive, Suzanne Noble.

I've got a lot of experience. So I'm a real expert in marriage and dating because then I've had these periods of being single that, you know, where I had to meet many people. Screen them and so forth.

And look, as you said, so much of this is about practice. So much of it is about confidence. Also, a lot of it is around resilience. As you said, it's about having a thick skin. You are going to get rejected. It is going to happen. Somebody is going to ghost you. You know, all of these things do go on. There's no, there's no age limit at which this shit stops. And you have to be Okay about that. And I think the more that you do it, the more practice you get, and the less it affects you.

And you have to have a growth mindset.

Yes, absolutely. 100%.

So, you know, if you don't know what that means, read Getting Real. My book Getting Real is a good introduction to the joys of personal growth, you know, through relationships.

Yeah. And so you met this guy, you were in your 70s. Was his history that he'd been in a long relationship, or was he like you, someone who had quite a considerable amount of practice?

He was more like me. He had 3 marriages.

Oh, right. Okay.

And, you know, one of them was very long, 17 years.

Yeah, yeah.

So, no, see, so he had a track record. The longest that I was married was 11 years. So I mean, that takes a lot. I was looking for a relationship-oriented guy. If he had been as attractive as he is, but only, you know, hadn't dated in 10 years or something, I would say to myself, you know, this, this guy doesn't like relationships enough to be in one, you know, a lot. So he's probably not my type.

Yeah, and that's also a really good barometer of whether or not somebody's got the staying power. It's just like, what's their relationship history? Have they been in long-term relationships? Have they just been serial monogamous? Like, you know, what is— what, what's their past look like? But you were talking about the fact that, you know, you do— we said just before we started recording that you, you still have a sexually active relationship with this person. How important was that for him and for you when you first met?

It was very important when we first met. We, you know, almost every night we had sex, or day or whatever, you know, in the beginning, that's changed tremendously, you know, in the 10 years. And, and we talk about it, you know, hey, is it— every once in a while, you know, it'll, it'll be 2 or 3 months before, you know, we have sex again. But it's gotten more enjoyable. I have to say this. It's— I think we're more attuned to each other. But also, I've grown in my own sensuality in a certain way, between the ages of maybe 80 and 84.

Wow.

My orgasms are better than ever.

Really?

Wow. I can't believe that I'm saying that, but I want to encourage people. And partly that's because, you know, now we use a mirror and we stand up during our foreplay. You know, when I was younger, I mean, I had mirrors around, you know, did that bit on the side or in the ceiling. But we just go to the bathroom sink where there's a big mirror and we have a little Dirty Dancing routine that we do to warm up and, you know, we wear sexy outfits, which are easy, easy to get out of. And the whole mirror thing, the whole visual thing, I never knew I was a visual person. Yeah. You know, so that's it. That's added a tremendous amount to my excitement.

Yeah. Yeah.

And then the, you know, and then the release.

Yeah. And so, yeah, I mean, I, I'm with someone and he's got a really big mirror in his, in his room. And I have to say, I never, I was exactly like you. I was like, I'm not really I'm more of a blindfold person, really. I still am more of a blindfold person. But then you've got this massive mirror and you're like, oh, actually, that looks pretty hot.

You have to have the lighting just right at our age.

Yeah, yeah. We're not talking about— we're not talking about fluorescence, Suzanne Noble.

Yeah, but with the right lighting, I mean, we still look to ourselves hot. Exactly. Oh, maybe we're a little bit exhibitionists. And I didn't know that about myself either. When I was younger, I think I was afraid of that side of myself, you know, showing off my body because of all the attention that I used to get, you know. Now I don't worry about that. So I'm more comfortable wearing sexy clothes. It's weird.

I'm a big fan of sexy clothes. Big fan of sexy clothes. Big fan of like silky underwear. Silky robes, stuff that just covers up a little bit. But, you know, it's like, I think one of the things that you mentioned is that at this age, and it's, it's not really just about at this age, but I do think that we can be more playful, we can be more creative, we can be more, we can laugh. I mean, if you can't laugh at, at some of the stuff, you know, like having to take a pee in the middle of sex and, and doing all this, then When can you laugh?

Yeah, yeah. Humor is important because we are— oh, I'm not— let me, let me take another minute and adjust myself so my shoulder doesn't hurt. You know, that's— this is more of a cuddling issue. But, you know, cuddling doesn't feel as good when your body is a little, a little stiffer or just, or just less something. You know, we— there is, there is less sex hormones flowing through us. That's true. But somehow we make up with that, make up for that in some other way. That it has to do with familiarity and lightness of spirit, like the humor, not so achievement-oriented, goal-oriented. All of those things can be useful growth steps or developments. You know, we're still growing in our sexuality in terms of expanding our range of of what's sexy and what's like acceptable. Yeah. Because so many of us figured out what worked for, you know, 30, 40 years when you were younger and those things don't work anymore.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and what you said that there was even between 80 to 84, you noticed a difference. What was that difference?

I think Two things. We started doing it less.

Yeah.

You know, and not— and kind of coming to terms with doing it less. You know, just not that interested in it as much. We were so like into it before. And it just gradually, between '80 and '84 for me and you know, he's 3 years older, just gradually found it less like what our priorities were. We all, you know, we always would express our attraction in the kitchen or here and there and have little, you know, sexy moments, but standing up with our bodies together. So it's nice to have something going on, at least for me, at any age, but I don't know, it was just like, sex is too much work. But, but then when we did do it, it kept getting better, and it still does. But then I can't explain why I'm not wanting it more often. But that's just the way it's been going.

But I mean, you know, as you know, Esther Perel says distance breeds desire, right? I mean, do you think part of that is just the fact that familiarity— you've had, you've now been together, you know, for a significant period of time, there's that familiarity there, which is in— that's that kind of deep loving feeling that you've got. But maybe the eroticism is not there in the same way as when you had that first initial flush of excitement when you've met someone.

I mean, it's not—

that's not— it's not it.

Wired. That's not how I'm wired. But he is experiencing cognitive decline, right? And harder to communicate with and requiring a little more patience on my part, just in daily life, not nothing to do with sex. He's still just the same in sex, you know, he hasn't lost anything there, you know, over the past 5 years. But the, but the cognitive decline changes the vibe in terms of, you know, him being easy versus a little bit difficult. So I have to I associate him with a little bit more, I have to be patient, right? Oh, and all that. And that's good for me. And I understand that I'm, I value patience. But it changes the attraction.

Sure. And have you— one of the things that I've, I've discovered helps is I'm quite intentional about my sex life. So I am very— I'm quite predictable in some ways, like in terms of scheduling it in on a certain date, and I like that. And then I get my brain in gear with the sexy clothes and all the other stuff that goes along with it. Sounds like we do a lot of kind of similar things in that way. Do you— did you notice that change as well as you got older? I mean, that you need to schedule it. Yeah, well, that, that kind of more being more intentional, I would say.

Yeah, well, I was always a little bit, you know, with him, always a little bit intentional, I think, in the beginning, but it was like, you know, I just, I just want to be like ready for sex tonight. And I want to like go to bed a little bit early and stuff like that. I mean, but now we schedule it. Yeah, we say, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna have a sex date tonight, or a play date or a love date, you know, we call it different things. And so scheduling seems like a thing that couples ought to be willing to do. Because, you know, we just get in other habits. I mean, it seems even more important for couples who have kids. That's not us. Yeah. You know, I mean, we don't have that many conflicts. It's just the old inertia problem.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, and I also think there's no, you know, I believe there's nothing wrong with that and that it's a way to reconnect with your partner. And it's, and it means that there's no misunderstanding. Are they interested? Are they not interested? Sometimes there's there's conflict when one person initiates all the time. So, you know, you remove all of that, those barriers. So I, and I, and I do wonder with, you know, with people like yourself that live together, do, or is it just me because I don't live with somebody, they do, you know, is that a thing with them as well?

So I'm kind of encouraged to hear that because I look forward to it all day too. Absolutely. And, you know, like, we need to get ourselves a little bit ready for me in terms of maybe not having such a big work schedule because I still work. I'm a psychotherapist and I see clients. And so, you know, if we're going to have a love date, maybe, you know, maybe I don't have as much work during the day.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You need to conserve your energy.

Yeah.

And in terms of medication. Is there— are you taking anything? Is he taking anything? Or is this— because I'm, I'm on testosterone, I'm on vaginal estrogen, like I'm on all sorts of things that are contributing to me experiencing pleasurable sex.

When I was 50, I started taking estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone, bioidentical, and I did that for about 30 years just to Okay, partly for, you know, keeping up the fun of sex, but also for bone loss as a woman. But I then I stopped taking it around 70 or early 70s. So I don't think I was even taking it when I started with my current partner. And it didn't make any difference. You know, when I stopped taking it, it didn't make any difference in terms of my sexual feelings or, you know, my turned-on-ness. It For what that's worth. Well, I'm thinking of starting a little estrogen again now.

Yeah, yeah.

And maybe going back to penetration. I mean, I could do that. It's just that we started not for various reasons, you know, he would not keep his erection, you know, as long or something. And so we just kind of fell out of that habit. And it was to stay in me for too long. It was starting to get painful. So Yeah, you know, again, with inertia, we just went in that direction, you know, everything but penetration. But now I'm thinking, well, you know, we're still vital. I've still got a good body here. Maybe I'll take some estrogen and start trying that again.

Yeah, it did make a huge difference, I have to say, to not having painful sex anymore, penetrative sex, just vaginal estrogen. It was, for me, it was transformative. Honestly, I just, I'm just going to take that for the rest of my life, I think. But that's, you know, that was what I took it for, just because it started getting quite painful. And, but you, you know, as we've said, and you've said it yourself, you know, people do associate sex with penetration, yet, you know, alternatives can be just as fulfilling. And I'd just be curious to know, and hear from you some insights into how older couples can explore intimacy in ways that fit their changing body and their changing desires.

Well, I happen to have very orgasmic breasts. So, you know, that, that is an alternative. I mean, I either have that or you don't, you know, but maybe you ought to try it a little bit. And even men, you know, have— some men have sensitive nipples. And maybe they haven't explored that. And also, there's other little erogenous zones, like the tissue between my, my butt and my thigh right there, you know, where I sit, you know, if you stroke that just a certain way, you know, you have to like experiment around with, are there any other erogenous zones that can add to the excitement that can, you know, may or may not lead to orgasm for, for the female. For— I give him handjobs, usually that's— or he does himself while looking at me, you know, he's very visual.

Yeah.

And so we just— vibrators are— I don't, I don't use that. But sometimes people bring in vibrators at a later stage of life. Yeah. No, to make the orgasm happen easier. Gee, and then the mirrors thing. But one of the things that, that I did with a former partner, and we were still, you know, I guess, in our late 60s, was we did a lot of things to get into our bodies before having sex. We did yoga, we danced, and I do dance with my current partner too. But we, you know, we sometimes even do qigong, you know, breathwork, just to really be in our bodies before, before then we just did then hop in the sack. But it's good to experiment. Maybe also a little sensual massage as a part of foreplay. So I, I just think encourage people to play around. There's another thing that we did for a while, which was like role-playing, and we made a bunch of scripts, you know, like, oh, he's a traveling salesman and he meets the waitress, you know, on one of his trips. And, you know, she's kind of like a poor little waif and he's her hero. And, you know, we act out different things. And then you know, how they get each other into bed. So again, that requires a rather extroverted personality. But try different things. Oh, and I lead couples groups sometimes. And I led this one couples weekend where I had the couples on Saturday night, or Saturday afternoon, write your own ideal sexual script between you and your partner. I called it the pulp nonfiction exercise. And some of the stories that— I mean, so then they wrote their stories and then Sunday, you know, and then they had Saturday night off for whatever they wanted to do. And then the stories I heard on Sunday morning after the written exercise, and these were just ordinary couples. I mean, they came because they were all members of a church group or something. Yeah. Yeah. And they just hired me. I mean, it was an ongoing couples group. They knew each other, but, you know, they hired me to do the retreat. But, you know, writing, again, everybody's got their own medium. Some people are more verbal. Some people are more nonverbal. So the dancing and the yoga thing can really be good for other people. Be a, you know, be a novelist.

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I had a chat with a guy who's written a few books in the sort of kink space about— and we talked, he's a man in his late 70s, about BDSM. And we were saying, you know, one of the great things about kink and BDSM is it's very creative. And it doesn't always, it doesn't always lead to penetrative sex, right? It can be stories, it can be impact play, it can be all sorts of stuff. And often when you're older, it's an ideal time to get into kink because there may be some physical health issues that you've got and some challenges that mean that penetrative sex is off the menu. And then you just have to think, well, okay, what else is there? And as you said, unless we start exploring our own bodies and our partner's bodies, we may discover they have a whole bunch of new erogenous zones we were completely unaware of, because we're so focused on the act of penetrative sex that we just ignored, you know, everything else. So I think that one of the things about storytelling for me is often it's about role, role playing. And, you know, a lot of that is, is kind of related to kink. And often, not always, obviously, but you know, sometimes it is, there is some like a power dynamic there about, about Which can be fun. Yeah, which can be super fun. Just can be super fun, especially if somebody has never explored like their dominant side before, or their submissive side, or, you know, relinquishing control, or wearing a blindfold, or handcuffs, or, you know, whatever, whatever it happens to be. And I'm going to— we've, we've come, we've exceeded I just got way too excited here. Oh, I don't even know what to ask anymore, because we've, we've covered quite a lot of ground. Is there anything you think, Suzanne, that I've missed out discussing that you really want to talk about?

Well, I guess one thing is the vulnerable side of being old and meeting somebody. And, you know, maybe you guys are 75 when you meet, like, like we were, there's already been some loss. And then over the next few years, there'll be perhaps more loss. When I say loss, I mean loss of certain functions and abilities, certain sensitivities that you used to rely on. Like I used to have like really sensitive hands. I mean, I still have very sensitive hands, you know, very intuitive. And, you know, they really, know what to do in sex. But I've got arthritis in my hands now. And so I experienced that as a loss of gift that I used to be able to give to my partner. That's not as good of a gift now. And there's just lots of things like my, my partner. He's, he's just always known himself as a really take-charge person, you know, magnetic personality, and experiencing cognitive decline makes him feel like less of a man, less valued, less lovable. And so all of this, if, you know, we can't deny that, you know, you and I have been talking about all the hot fun stuff. But it's, it's important to own where we are in life. Because intimacy, that, that vulnerable emotional sharing that you can have, there's really a lot more material for sharing vulnerably. And I think it's a highly valuable and kind of healing thing because we need help kind of coming to terms with, I'm still me even though I can't give him, you know, the same things with my hands, or he can't give me certain things anymore. So, and the, my latest book, From Triggered to Tranquil, has a lot to do with self-compassion. When you feel uncomfortable feelings, go ahead and feel feel them, be with yourself like a mother would hold a much-loved child. And so we need practices like that to help us come to terms with loss and also to be able to talk about it with our partners.

Yeah, and I think that's a great way to end because ultimately what I've heard you say throughout this entire conversation, which is clear to me, is that you and your partner have a very strong relationship built on being clear and honest with each other about what's going on, right?

Yeah.

I mean, that's what I'm hearing. I'm hearing that you're able to overcome some of those challenges through humor, through honesty, through just talking about it. And I think often what we do is when we're not able to experience some of the pleasure that we used to be able to, instead of talking about it and acknowledging it, We just feel ashamed and we feel, and we feel bad and we feel like, oh, you know, well, this is the beginning of the end, isn't it? Because now I can't do this anymore. And I know even just going through the menopause that I, you know, I did have to grieve around the fact my libido wasn't super high anymore and I wasn't able to orgasm in 2 seconds like I used to be able, you know, like everything just took longer and sometimes I just had to get overcome that, that feeling of like, oh, you know, well, it's just something different now. So, and it sounds like you've been able to do, to do that with your partner, which is, which is really amazing. And it's something that we all really need to aspire to in all our relationships is just being honest.

Yeah. And when you can talk about something with your partner, it's not always about solving a problem or fixing anything. It's just, this is our new reality and here we are and we still love each other.

That's beautiful. Suzanne Noble Noble, it has been a pleasure to talk to you, and I will as usual post all— I won't post all of your books, otherwise I'd need a whole separate website, I think, to do that. But I will certainly post some of them on your website and where people can get in touch with you. You've been a fabulous guest.

Thank you so much, Suzanne Noble. I've really enjoyed this too.