Still Juicy: Sex, Self‑Worth, and Reinventing Intimacy in Your 70s and Beyond

This week's episode has been sponsored by Oh My Bod, shifting the evolution of pleasure. Hi, this is Suzanne Noble, and you're listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. And you know, I have lots of conversations with people around changes that occur in their sexual life as a result of the menopause. I talk a lot about erectile dysfunction, which tends to start happening to men in their early 50s really and onwards. But I don't talk a lot about people in their 70s and 80s, mainly because a lot of the people I speak to are not in their 70s and 80s, and maybe they don't have clients in their 70s and 80s, but my guest today is a much younger woman, but she does work with much older people. And so that's what we're going to talk about. We're going to talk about much older people and what happens to them, or, you know, what changes can go on in later life. I'd like to welcome Emma Shandy-Anhui.

Such a mouthful, that.

She's based on the West Coast of America. She's a psychotherapist. She specializes in relational and sex therapy. And she also does longboarding, which I don't, I don't know what that is, but it's something that happens on the water. I'm assuming it's a, it's a water sport in some way. And I don't really get involved in that. But anyway, we don't have to, we don't have to talk about that. I just thought it was an interesting side note. So Emma, welcome to Sex Advisors.

Thanks, Suzanne. I'm happy to be here. Yeah.

And we were talking just before we started recording about the fact that you do see couples in, you know, in their 70s. And what is the reason, you know, in— is there one reason that they come to you? Why do they come to you? Or why does somebody, you know, give me an example of why somebody would come to you in their 70s?

Yeah, absolutely. So for a lot of people, when we're reaching this kind of decade of life, 70s and 80s, there is this reckoning with mortality that happens in a way that we don't see even when we hit our 50s and 60s, right? You're really feeling your age. You know, a lot of times I'll have clients kind of describe themselves, I feel frail for the first time. I'm, I'm really understanding that there is a limit to my life. And with that often comes this almost push of, wait a minute, like, no, let's make the most of it. It's not over yet. And at least in America, we are an entirely puritanical culture that gives no good sex education. And what we find is that so many, especially heterosexual couples, go their whole life just having sex that's okay. It's fine. It's good enough. And so when we hit 70, 75, 80, and we go, wait, could there be something more? It's almost like you finally get this catalyzing boost to go, I want to see, I want to push all the corners to see what is possible. And so it can actually be this like liberating jump into this new world, right? That maybe you never gave yourself before.

Cool. And would you, like, what people, when people say the word good sex, I find that a very difficult word because, or words, because what is good for one person is not so good for another, right? So when people say we've had okay sex, but we want to make it better, what do they mean?

Yes. Yeah.

Yeah.

So I'm going to actually even replace my word good with magnificent. How do we make it magnificent? Right. So when we think of good, good enough, it's all right. Like, I, you know, I always like to use this analogy of like, there's a granola bar on the shelf and yeah, I'm hungry. So I'll eat the granola bar and it was fine. I'm not really craving it, but you know, I'll go back to it and have it. Versus if I see a piece of chocolate cake, I fucking love chocolate cake and I'm going to eat it. And then I see it again and I'm going to go find it. And then I'm going to be like, where'd I put that cake? Right. It's like this exciting desire and craving this. I'm wanting it versus It's okay, right? There's a, there's a vitality to it. There's a mindfulness to it. There's a savoring of the pleasure that so often we just disassociate from or don't even know is possible as we go through the motions.

So are these people that want to, would you say, explore the boundaries of sex beyond what I would consider fairly again, not a word that I'm particularly fond of, but I'm going to use it anyway. Vanilla sex where, you know, they might have the missionary position and then somebody does doggy style and maybe somebody gets a blowjob if they're lucky. Kink or polyamory or opening up the relationship, like, are they looking to make it expansive beyond the realms of what would be considered fairly, sure, you know, traditional sex, or are they looking to, and I realize, you know, we, we might, everybody's different, but what is it that they're seeking?

Yeah. Yeah.

Because I mean, you can have an orgasm, right? Like, well, not everybody does, but let's say you have sex where both people have orgasms.

Yeah.

Most people would consider that to be good enough. Mm-hmm.

Totally. Totally. So I'm totally, yeah, hearing the question around like, what does that even mean? Like, are we going to like a whole kink fest now? Do I have 40 partners? I'm like, maybe for some people, that's what it is. But what I kind of see more in my office is this idea of, you know, let's take a couple, maybe they've been together for like 3 decades, and they're kind of looking at each other with fresh eyes. Right? Wait, I don't just have to go through the motions with you, right? There is a way to rewrite this whole menu. There is a way to still make you exciting and me exciting. Right? And I think what often happens again, when we are in these aging bodies is what once worked does not work anymore, not because you are broken, but because your body's changing. And so a lot of times, instead of addressing that, we can fall into shame.

Right?

We can fall into insecurity. And so having people have the ability to go, wait a minute, my body's still beautiful. I'm still sexy. I just need to rewrite this menu with you. Can we start with that? Right? So that's where we kind of start. And then yes, some people end up going, you know what, let's open the relationship. That's where we want to land. Other people are like, you know what, this revitalization just between the two of us is enough. But it's almost this idea of like what was once just going through the motions is not anymore, right? There's a place to feel this like magnificence, this vitality again.

And do you find that when people come to you, they start out from a place of disappointment or they start out from a place of, look, we just don't know how to make it better. Yes. But we know that we'd like to.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Great question. I would say grief work is almost always a part of this. There is almost always a lot of work spent going, oh my God, I didn't even know it could be different, right? I just thought it had to be this way. And that is a lot, right? And it doesn't have to be the end of the story. We get to move through that and then say, yeah, and now let's own it, right? Let's figure out— I think a lot of times people come in not even knowing the emotional weight they've been carrying, and that eventually comes out as they're starting to untangle all of this and why they've even gotten to this place in the first place.

Yeah. And do you find that most people that come to you come to you as two willing partners, or there's normally a driving partner behind the intention to see you?

Okay. So what's so interesting is that in the 50s to 60s, there's almost always a driving partner. Okay. Um, predominantly what I have been seeing is men bringing their wives in because their wives are fed up and done. And the men are freaking out. Now, the 70s and 80s, at least just from my personal experience, it has been completely mutual. It's almost the sense of like, we're here together, right? We've made it this far along and we want to capitalize on this time together. So it's this very interesting switch that you see from this strat to this gap.

That's so fascinating and also so encouraging, I think, for people that have kind of gotten to the other end of, you know, to that stage, because I think you're right. Like what I hear all the time is that a lot of, and often from men, I have to say is my wife is going through the menopause. She says that her libido's gone through the floor. She doesn't have any desire anymore. I'm really frustrated. We've talked about maybe giving, opening up the relationship, but she's not happy with that. And, you know, so there's this deep sense of frustration. Yeah. It feels like on the part of men of that age. And then there's this kind of resignation often on the part of women who have just said, well, I'm not that bothered actually. Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

Yes. Yeah.

So this is, this is your problem. I'm not owning it. Just like letting you deal with your own frustration. Totally. I think that's interesting that later on, if you could, if you can make it over that rocky patch, potentially you might get to a place where you're like, let's see, now that I'm over the hot flashes and this and that and all the shit. And that's kind of what happened to me is my 50s were shit in terms of just feeling unsexy, really. Just not. Hot flashes, the usual stuff that's common with menopause and really having to own and grieve over the loss of that libido. I wasn't going to recapture, but then, you know, moved into a different place in my 60s and thought, oh, okay, I'm over this now. So I can revisit some of that because I can sleep next to somebody without covering them with sweat.

You know, it's totally like good baseline. Yeah.

Let's face it, unless that's your kink, it's not very sexy, is it?

Mm-hmm. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's so true. Right? And it's interesting, there's these parallels between the postpartum period and the postmenopausal period, right? Where again, it's this reckoning that is only for the female, right? Physiologically, where they are then in this place of going, hold on, do I still want this? I have just gone through so much. Do I have capacity to invest? And to your point of women kind of showing that apathy, a lot of women don't, and you're kind of like, I'm done. You step up. Right. But the invitation then is, well, how do you trust if your partner is stepping up? Can you come along?

Right.

Don't give up on yourself and your sexuality.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think, you know, we often, and I suspect even more so nowadays with the requirement for young mothers to be, you know, prioritizing their children above everything else in their lives. To the point where their partners really just don't get a look in.

Yeah. Yeah.

And if that's happened when your kids are growing up, then it's not uncommon that when you become an empty nester and they've left home, you're like, who are you?

Yeah.

I don't—

Yes, exactly. That disconnection, right? It comes with time. It's slow. It's usually— it's very rare. It's just all of a sudden I wake up and I'm like, blah. You know, it's like micro moments over years that build up.

Yeah, absolutely. So do you think— I'm just curious what mindset shifts are most helpful for people who are feeling kind of discouraged or out of practice?

Yeah, totally. So I always come back to Esther Perel. She's an amazing—

I love Esther Perel.

Love Esther. We love her. We all want to be her when we grow up.

I know, I tried to get her haircut at one point.

I was like, Totally.

Kind of asymmetrical. It's kind of interesting.

I noticed she changed it recently.

So I'm like, oh, she's—

Yeah, yeah. But you know, her definition of the erotic is life force. It's your vitality. It has nothing to do with my partner or my marriage. Like, it starts with you. And that's an ageless thing, right? That sense of my life force. And so if you are in that place where you're just feeling despair or disconnect or apathy, you know, going back to Suzanne Noble Noble, your question of like, what the fuck is longboarding, Emma? The reason I throw it in there is because that is actually what I started doing to help myself come back into my body and my vitality, right? Like after I had kids, I completely lost my sense of self. And then I taught myself how to skateboard. And all of a sudden I was like joyful and woof-rant, right? And feeling that energy. And the thing that's interesting about that is that's not what we assume is overtly sexual, but you know what having my vitality did to me? It made me more inclined to explore sexually, right? Because I was feeling confident again. So, so I think, you know, again, no matter how old you are, if you're 25 or 85, it's what are you doing for yourself to tap into that life force, right? Yeah. Not even looking at the relationship yet. How are we juicing you up again, reminding you of your eroticism, right? Of that power. And then notice how having that as a baseline can spread out, right?

Yeah. And one of the things, another little Esther Perel tip that you've probably read is that she does this thing with Post-it notes, which I think is a very lovely little kind of game that you can play with your partner, which says, write in your Post-it did note, I turn myself on when, and then I turn myself off when. And I love that for, again, you know, what is it that you can— that brings joy into your life? And it's not turning yourself on by turning on a vibrator. It's turning yourself on for me by singing or, you know, meeting up with friends for a glass of wine or just like hanging out with people that I really love and just shooting the shit, right? And for other people, it's being alone with a book or doing some art or whatever. And they, and conversely, you know, those times when you really beat yourself up, like, what are those times where you're, where you think, I, I'm, I regret having done that, you know, which might be just like stuffing your face with chocolate or when, you know, when you've just already had a big meal and you're like, I didn't need to eat a chocolate bar. Right. But I think Understanding what gives your— what gives you pleasure and others knowing that's, that's you in your joy.

Yes.

This is sexy. It is sexy. When people are doing things they love, it is sexy. I don't care what age they are.

It's magnetic. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, I think the other thing, just kind of, you know, speaking more to the elderly population is really being able to examine like, what are your own internal narratives around sexuality and sex with aging, right? Can you let go of the myth that aging decreases sexual potential? It does not, right? What we have seen in the research is actually the best sex— this is so interesting— Peggy Kleinplatz, she's a Canadian sex therapist, psychologist, she did this incredible study on sexuality and longevity and found that the best sex was reported after 60 and 70, right? Not when you're hot, you know, young 24-year-old, whatever. And so can we lean into and get curious about like, wait, like maybe my body doesn't look the way it used to, but actually, does that matter? Is there a way to still find that? And then we go back to the Eros, you know, that vitality again.

Definitely. And, and body confidence is— it's again, it's something that as we move through the aging process, yeah, and we stop you know, and we have to accept the fact that there are certain changes happening in our body and that it's not going to go back to the way it was, except if you put in, you know, either you have surgery or you put in a supreme amount of effort. I mean, sadly, I'm seeing loads of people that I know going on weight loss drugs and I just think, God, if you can't get to like 60 years old, and just accept your body or work out what you need to do to change it without— but there's so much pressure on women at all stages of life, so much to be slim. And I think that makes it really hard when, if you've never been comfortable in your body, to then share that body with someone else, right? I mean, it makes sense that why would you want to if never been a happy place for you.

Entirely, entirely, right? Yes. And, you know, you bringing up women especially, I think is so important because we kind of have this like narrative of women become these old women, but men become more desirable as they age. And, you know, this trend of men, older men finding younger partners, which means women their age feel this pressure to look younger. It's, it is so deeply embedded. Right. It's so deeply embedded. Yeah.

Yeah. And it, and especially when you're, you know, when you are an older person, we, you know, you talked at the beginning about, you know, we don't have sex education. We don't, we didn't learn, we don't learn anything about sex. So, and it's the same thing about, about how do we become comfortable in our bodies? Nobody teaches us that. No. You know? No, it's just, it's just something we either do.

Yeah.

Or we spend our lives wrestling with a body that we don't like. And I think for a lot of people, that's, that's the situation is just constantly wrestling with a body that you think is undesirable.

Entirely. You know, it's heartbreaking. It is a great unlearning, you know, and I, so I have two very small children. One of them is 3 and loves being naked. It's so funny. And we were at the beach the other day and my partner and I were like, give it 5 minutes, this dude's gonna take his clothes off, right? And we were like, we're— there he was. And he's shameless and it's beautiful and people chuckle and he's just like, whoa. And what I always tell people is like, we were all that. We were all that 3-year-old who was So embodied and so shameless and society and messaging and trauma and, and, and slowly sculpted out of us. So then how do we refine that? Because it's not entirely gone. I really don't believe that. And if you once had it, then it absolutely is possible to find it again. Right? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, any practical tips there?

Yeah, absolutely. Take your clothes off at the beach. Just kidding.

Get arrested.

Totally. Well, as simple as it sounds, one exercise is starting fully clothed and just looking in the mirror and finding one thing that you like. So maybe today I'm looking in the mirror and I'm like, I like the color of my eyes. Beautiful. We're gonna do it again tomorrow. No, tomorrow I'm noticing my hands are really dainty. And, and as simple as sounds, especially for women, typically the default is critical, critical, critical. I look fat. I like this. I like this. So what we're doing here is creating a new neural pathway in our brain of my body is pretty. There is something nice in my body. And with repetition, that becomes a little bit more solidified. And then we move on to the next year. Okay. Can you stand in your underwear? Let's look at your stomach. How are we feeling about that? Right. Let's take it in. And again, it sounds so micro, but it has the big ripple effect, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The other thing that— yeah, no, please.

Yeah, no, no, over to you.

Yeah, I was just gonna say, you know, I like to use fashion as a self-expression tool, and I think it's something that again we so quickly conform— what looks good, what, what should I be wearing— that we forget it, is a pure form of self-expression. So go into your closet and go, do I actually like these? What do I actually feel pretty in? And find that thing and wear it, right? How do I make this mine? Because when we step into this idea of I'm owning this, this is my body, this is my space, it changes our energy, right? It allows us to tap into that vitality again, and then we see that kind of ripple effect.

Yeah. And the same goes for, for me in the bedroom, I always say more is more. So you don't have to take off all your clothes. You know, you don't have to start by taking off all your clothes. You can keep on like a silky little robe. You can get some sexy, like a sexy lacy bodysuit. Like there is so much now on websites for, you know, larger women, women of all sizes. And there's no age at which you have to stop wearing that stuff. Yeah. I think you can wear that stuff at any age.

No.

And if it makes you feel more sexual, if it makes you feel more attractive, if it makes you feel more vital, then great. Like there's something, you know, there's it, and you don't ever have to take it all off if you don't want to. There is something quite sexy about leaving something on.

Totally.

And flesh and stuff being revealed. And I always think that people really don't appreciate enough about, you know, how simple things like a sexy pair of underwear can just make you feel better.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think that phrasing there is so key. You said make you feel better. I'm not doing this because I think it's going to make my partner want me and lol. It's me. I feel that, right? For me. And there we go.

Yeah. And well, and I think sex between two people is two people stepping into a space collectively. Where both of them have to want, want it, because if one wants and the other one doesn't, then that to me is, you know, not good sex. So let's see, let's move on just kind of quickly around, around things like alternative relationships. Do you find that in this age group as well, there is more querying, more curiosity around looking at other kinds of relationships and what, what another kind of relationship might look like.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I don't know if you've seen the statistics around like STIs and like retirement. Oh yeah, no, but yes, right. Like what data shows us is people are enjoying their sex life and their creative expression. And so for a lot of people, it is this kind of curiosity of like, hold on, like, Maybe I don't have to compartmentalize and shame away things I've wondered about my whole life anymore, right? If I've maybe in the back burner been like, gosh, an open relationship, what would that be like? Or could I have a friend with benefit? Or do I want this? It's this invitation to go, maybe I can. And if I'm partnered, maybe I can say to my partner, hey babe, what do we think about a new adventure? Right? Like there's, there's not, you know, again, there actually, I think is a lot of power in owning our mortality and going, we've lived this full life. Wow. And why not? Right? What is there to lose? And when people really step into that, I think it opens up this whole treasure trove of fun things to explore.

Yeah, I mean, I think the only challenge, certainly, you know, what I've noticed is that the older that you get, the more challenging it becomes to find play partners, for example, or other kinds, or, or kinky people or other people that might want to play around with you because it is skewed to— although it's not skewed to super young people because I've been in and around the various lifestyles for decades. I do think that there are loads and loads and loads of older people in kink. Yeah, well, especially in kink because often kink doesn't involve penetrative sex. And you know, if you've got a chronic illness, then sometimes kink is like much more fun than trying to accomplish things that are just frankly going to be problematic.

Oh, yeah.

But sometimes it's, you know, what I hear from older people who have the desire to explore is that it's really hard to find people. And I don't know if that's true in California. Yeah, but I know certainly in London, there just gets to a point where it's just hard to meet people.

Yes. It is, you know, it's often I hear this like, I've met everyone there is to meet, almost, right? Everyone that's like, it makes everything feel small and you're not wrong, right? I do think that while it's not restricted to young people, the demographic that tends to draw towards this is a little bit on the younger side, right? So then the question is, well, do I wanna play with people younger? Do I feel comfortable with that crossover? Yeah. Or am I actually looking for partners my own age? And if that's the case, then we rely on how helpful the internet can be because truly there are so many different social groups, right? Social networks that you can get so almost hysterically specific about to look into.

Yeah.

And with that though, right? It's almost like the more niche something is, the less people they're gonna be. And so I do think acknowledging that that is a reality does matter.

You know, yeah, yeah, I mean, I think within— I was talking with another therapist a few weeks ago and we were saying, you know, one of the great things about exploring fantasies and kink, doesn't matter what stage of life you are, once you open that Pandora's box, if you open it with a partner, you can, you can literally start out by just making it a fantasy as part of your, as part of— it doesn't necessarily have to be a real person that's in the room, you know, it could just be, it could just be something that you're talking about role playing between yourselves, and you might get just as much enjoyment out of that as you do out of trying to go down the rabbit hole that is like finding a third or finding some kinky person.

Yeah, no, and that's the thing, right? I am so pro-monogamy, and I also so pro-non-monogamy, right? It's like, you do you. Be careful not to sequester yourself away, right? Like, a lot of times I hear people being like, well, if I'm married, like, that's just it, right? If I want some excitement, I've got to open it up. And that's just such a lie, right? To your point of, no, there's a whole playground to explore, right? You can imagine, there's endless fantasies. It's just, do you even know where to start? Do you know how to talk to your partner about that? Right? And then go on from there.

Yeah. And do you use the Yes, No, Maybe checklist?

Yes, we do.

I just wrote about the yes, no. I write a lot of— I have written a few times about the yes, no, maybe checklist, but I'm curious to know if you've got your own or do you— have you co-opted someone else's or—

Co-opted someone else's. Yeah, it's so funny you say that. I literally sent it over to a client today. I have this one. It's by this— she's an American and she goes by the Libido Fairy and it's this Phenomenal. I mean, it's so intensive, right? Where she breaks down, okay, touching, and then underneath touching, it's like all the body parts and you get to yes, no, or maybe that. And then we're licking, right? So it's very detailed, very specific.

Interesting. Cause I've got, I'm, I'm always curious to see new ones. And I've got one by another therapist. I, she might be Canadian. I'm not sure. But I use, I've just put hers as a, like a special download on something that I've written. But I always think that it's such a great way if you don't have any knowledge about any of this to start the conversation without it getting awkward or uncomfortable.

Totally. Absolutely. Yeah. To outsource, to kind of like giggle together of like, ooh, I never even thought of that. Right. Yeah. It's so helpful.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. You know, there's not that there's, okay. There's Esther Perel's got some little tips and tricks, but fundamentally it doesn't seem like, and I could be wrong about this, but it doesn't seem like there's a huge amount of activities like the Yes, No, Maybe checklist. I've got this thing called Pillow Talk, which is cards for intimate conversations. You've probably seen that from the School of Life. And they do, they do 2 or 3 other sets that I think are really good. In fact, I might even buy these for some Christmas presents now that I'm looking at it again. But I think that, you know, people could use more of those sorts of techniques to make it less scary to talk about all of these things.

Yes. Agreed. It's like adult swim lessons, right? Like I know a lot of adults who just don't really know how to swim, but it feels so embarrassing. Like they should know how to swim, but they don't. Same thing. A lot of people, especially when we're this old, oh my God, how have I never learned how to talk about this? Because nobody taught you. Right. And so to have tools and things to read and check off and work through, so appropriate and helpful. Yeah.

Yeah, definitely. And I think we just need more of those. So anyway, God, we've reached the end. How is that even possible?

It's been very fun chatting with you.

It has been super fun chatting with you as well. And I've really enjoyed hearing about the older people that you work with and how they— there's still that inclination that there could be more out there, that there are experiences, sexual experiences that they still want to explore and try. I think that's always so encouraging. And for every listener out there, it's just never ever too late to explore any of this, you know, never too late. And it doesn't really matter if you've got health conditions. All of this stuff can be worked around if you want to.

Bingo. Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

If you want to, that's the key.

Yeah. So Emma, have a lovely day out on the West Coast and enjoy your evening.

Thank you.