Why Sex Changes After 50 and What Nobody Tells You | ft. Dr. Jenn Kennedy

There's usually a little bit of trepidation as they're walking in initially, you know, so the embarrassment, I guess, might be, is it, is it okay to say things aren't working in the bedroom? And, you know, it's been determined that either that the problem, the physical problem, has been addressed and they've gone as far as they can and they still need psychological support, or there is no physical problem and they need psychological or, you know, so it could be either, either and both.

I found that the sudden drop in interest in sex and the accompanying changes that were going on in my body, they took a long time to deal with. I didn't seek professional help. And what I'm hearing is that is the word that is often missing in so many of these relationships is curiosity, is, is be still remaining curious both about the world and about each other. And I think often Even when I go on dates sometimes, and, you know, lots of women, not just of my age, but this is a common, you know, complaint that I hear women make all the time when they go on dates. It's like, he just spoke about himself the whole time. He just wants— he just wanted to tell me about himself the whole time. Right. And it doesn't take much to ask, you know, how was your day? Right. Like, like, these are some really simple questions that can open the doors to conversation. Hi, this is Suzanne Noble, and you are listening to Sex Advice for Seniors. And today I'm actually recording from my bedroom because my usual place is being occupied by my cleaner. So this is my bedroom wallpaper, and I'm feeling in a very sexy mood as a result of that. Sitting here lying in my bed surrounded by my fluffy pillows that you can't see and 3 boxes of sex toys, which we can get on to later. But I'm very excited to welcome my guest who's— it's her morning, it's my evening. She's in Santa Barbara and her name is Dr. Jen Kennedy. She's a clinical sexologist and a licensed marriage and family therapist specializing in sex and couples therapy. And she's the founder of The Pleasure Project, which is an organization that a friend of mine is also a member of, but it's a completely different organization. I— you probably know there's two Pleasure Projects. One is a big not-for-profit that my friend runs, and now there's yours in the US. So I've had her on the show, actually. But yeah, yeah, so yeah, Pleasure Project to go-go here. But Jen runs a group therapy practice in California. She works with couples and individuals, and she also hosts a podcast called The Pleasure Project: Sex and Relationships. And she's been featured in loads of places, including Forbes Health, Allure, and Shondaland. So I want to ask you, Jen, firstly, welcome to Sex Advisor Seniors. Thank you.

And I love your wallpaper. It is just gorgeous.

I know, I know. It's only on one wall, though, because otherwise it would be outrageous.

Because I was like, how did you get that beautiful background? And then I'm like, oh, it's wallpaper. It's like, yeah, it's only one wall because I saw it and I thought it was so girly. It's super girly.

But if it was in my whole bedroom, it would feel like I'm living in a bunch of lilies. So it'd be a bit weird. But I got to ask you, you work with a lot of couples in their 50s and 60s and beyond. And what's the common issue that they come to you with that they're almost too embarrassed to talk about?

Well, so it kind of splits. It's either dysfunction or dissatisfaction is sort of like the main themes that come in. And I would say there's usually a little bit of trepidation as they're walking in initially, you know, so the embarrassment, I guess, might be, is it, is it okay to say things aren't working in the bedroom? So it's usually edging in on Erectile dysfunction is a common one, you know, so that's not working. Or just really low desire would be kind of the other common one. Like, I just don't want— she doesn't want to— our desire has kind of gone away and we feel sad about it or confused about it or worried about it. Yeah.

Yeah. And I just launched a program yesterday about erectile dysfunction, actually, because I think You know, what I've discovered through having two partners who both sadly now are dead, for whom erectile dysfunction was the first sign that something was wrong with them, was that often men just don't talk about it, and they're really ashamed to talk about it. So if they do come to— when they come and see you, and that's one of the issues, is it normally because they've already gone to see a healthcare professional, or are you the first port of call for them? Like, where are you in their journey from?

Okay, yeah, it could be either way. They could be a referral from their urologist, or it could be that they, they've Googled sex help and I'm their first stop, and then I will refer them to their doctor. Oftentimes though, you know, the healthcare provider on either side. It could be that the gynecologist referred the woman if she's having low desire or pain with penetration or any of that, and they've been checked out. And, you know, it's been determined that either that the problem, the physical problem has been addressed and they've gone as far as they can and they still need psychological support, or there is no physical problem and they need psychological support, you know. So it could be either, either and both. You know?

Yeah. Yeah. And that's difficult because when it's physical, it's almost easier, I suspect. Right. Because it is what it is. It's like there's a problem with your, you know, whether it's your cardiovascular system, blood flow, diabetes, hormones. But when it's not, then it's a little bit more complex. And also, I suspect a bit more sensitive on both sides to talk about.

And with the aging process especially, I mean, I feel like I'm in my 50s now and it's like each year it's like, wait, what? Now I get— now I, now I lost that too, or that's changing. And so when people come in and they're like, this is part of the aging process, now I have a dry, you know, vulva, what? Or now my erections are only sort of half working and they may or may not be reliable. You know, so this is just part of the conversation that we're having, and it's like, okay, this is— you have to recalibrate your expectations. It's kind of a bummer, but it's okay. It's— you can still have pleasurable sex.

Yeah, I mean, when I was in my 50s and I went through the menopause, and I'm a bit older than you are, I found this part, this period of my life, very challenging. To be honest, I found that the sudden drop in interest in sex and the accompanying changes that were going on in my body, they took a long time to deal with. I didn't seek professional help because I just thought, oh, you know, I'd read enough about menopause to just think this is shit and it's just going to be shit and I just have to put up with it, right? Until it stops, until it becomes less shit.

That sounds so English. It's all shit. It's just going to be shit until it's not.

Well, it is hard, you know, because as you go through the menopause, right, you're— it's changing all the time. Like, it takes a while to settle down. So for somebody—

your eyesight, right?

And for somebody to go to a professional like yourself and go, okay, what do we do now? I don't know. What do you say to them? Like, you just have to put up with it for a while.

Well, I'm normalizing to some degree what's going on, and I'm encouraging them to engage in, like, let's work with what you do have. What, what does feel good? What is possible? Because part of it is that they're so ashamed that their parts aren't working or that their things look different that they just want to hide. And so if we can actually get them to just pivot when something— like, for example, if the erection doesn't arrive or if it doesn't stay, then let's just pivot to something else that's still enjoyable, right? If they can get their head around that and not get taken out and feel so ashamed, then they can keep going. And oftentimes it will come back if they're not focused on it and freaked out about it, because it's a, it's a reaction to the anxiety. Sometimes too. And so if me as a third person who is not involved in their sex life can say that, then they can, they can hold on to that, they can remember that. And then when they're together, they can still play and have fun. It feels a lot better versus they just feel so shameful and embarrassed that they sort of go to their silos and then nothing good happens. So I'm trying to help at least them have something else that feels connecting for them as an option rather than let's just wait it out until we hit a baseline in 5 or 10 years because that might not happen or they might just like hang up their cleats for good. Yeah.

And that does happen. I mean, I was with somebody who is much younger than me when I started going through all of this and he said to me, how long is this going to go on for? And I went, about a decade.

Well, you're really selling it.

He was shocked, the poor man. He was like a baby, and he was just— he was 33, I was 50, and he was just going, what, 10 years? But, you know, I think at least when both partners are going through something individually, it's almost easier in a way because you can kind of make light of it. If like You know, one person needs, okay, I need a bit of lube, hun, because this just is, I'm just not getting there as quickly as I was hoping. Or let's just take a break. In the UK, we say let's just take a tea break, you know, it's like, just have a little rest, just have a little nap, and then just get started again. But I think, you know, do you find that for a lot of these guys, they've relied so heavily on penetrative sex that when the erection goes, it's like they almost don't even know what else is on the menu?

Absolutely. And it's so interesting because there isn't really a parallel. Like, men are very attached to their penis in a way that women are not attached to their breasts, for example, or, you know, their vulva. Like, they can pivot, they have pleasure centers all over, but men are like, the size and the functioning of their penis matters a lot to them, and penetrative sex has always been their gold standard. And so when that stops being possible, either because they can't penetrate or because it hurts for the female partner, they get really frustrated and they get really in their head about it. And so it's— it is a game changer. And so trying to get them back on board to try something else is a bit of a discussion. But I tell you, the men that can that are willing to have that conversation and try something different, their lives just go better. So yeah. Yeah.

And what are some of the practical tips that you think are just useful for guys who might be in that situation, just experiencing unreliable erections? Is there anything that you can— just a practical tip that you can suggest for those people who are like, yeah, it's not working as effectively, I'm getting a little bit frustrated here? What, you know, is there like a word or, or anything that I mean, just, it's, it's not, it's really practicing non-attachment.

Because it's like, if just because it's not erect in the same way it was when you were 25, doesn't mean that you can't have pleasure, the sensitivity is still there, right? You can still enjoy oral sex. You can still enjoy manual stimulation. It all, it all still feels good. It all, you know, the receptivity is there. It just, you know, you can even— there's a practice called stuffing where you can still put it inside a woman and it still feels good. It just doesn't have the same impact, you know, in terms of an erect penis being put inside. I hope we can say all this on your podcast.

Yeah, of course we can.

We can have that little marker that says explicit. Because this is definitely across that line. Um, okay, good. We are definitely hit that explicit, uh, marker. Um, but yeah, it's like if it's not working, it's, it's like they have to almost just reconfigure that it's, it is working, it's just working differently. Yeah, yeah, it's working, it's just differently. It's okay.

And I You know, because I don't have a penis, obviously. I wasn't aware until a partner told me after, you know, after he'd come and after, like, we'd been lazing around for a while and he was totally soft and then started getting into a bit of manual stimulation. And he was like, wow, it's so sensitive. And I thought, and I was like, really? And he was like, yeah, yeah, like, when it's really soft, it becomes like super sensitive. And after he'd already ejaculated. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. I didn't— you know, I always assumed that, you know, it becomes more sensitive as it becomes more erect. But as you said, the sensitivity is always there. It's just, you know, our visual is that the only thing we've seen as women, mainly through porn and stuff, right, is like stimulation of, of erect penises. So we don't have a lot of visual references, actually, when it comes to just like playing, just playing with parts that aren't necessarily fully erect.

We just—

so, you know, we just don't have a lot of education.

Well, and think about it for you, like after orgasm, think about how sensitive you are. Yeah, right. It's like sometimes you don't want to be touched almost because you're so sensitive. Yeah, right.

So this is like significantly after that event, though, like not the immediate after. Aftermath of it, but like quite a while after when we were just, you know, lying around. So yeah, but yeah, I mean, after orgasm, it's almost too sensitive. Which brings me on to women and pain, because again, I hear a lot of women say, you know, I'm not interested in sex. And I wonder how much of that is because it's just become too painful. They're not comfortable admitting that. Is that one of the circumstances that you've come across in your practice?

Absolutely. Yeah. I had a woman this week say, okay, it feels like sandpaper when I'm having sex. And that is the common refrain when you've crossed that line where you just don't have enough natural lubrication. And by the way, like, we don't just keep— we're not like a lubrication factory, right? If you have sex long enough, you're going to run out of lubrication. So, lube is your friend. You should just be lubricating, you know, have lube, a good quality lube, by standby anyway. But as we age, it's harder to get enough lubrication. And if you don't have sex that frequently, you might be having some— I hate this word— but you might be having some atrophy, vaginal atrophy. So, that skin gets thinner. And as it gets thinner, then when you do have any sort of penetrative play, and that could be with hands or with toys or with, you know, penetration, you might be getting micro tears. And the micro tears are so painful. Oh my God, they're so painful. So then you're going to have a feedback loop of like, I don't want to do this again because it hurts, really hurts. So lube is going to be your friend. There's also little suppositories that you can use, vaginal suppositories that you can just, you know, put in there and then they slow drip out the lubrication. Those are wonderful. There's also vaginal estrogen.

Yeah. I mean, I was going to say, these women are—

these women that have never heard of vaginal estrogen before, because I'd be surprised how many women, especially women that are like perimenopausal, that are just coming into this. There is so little information if they aren't going to a gynecologist that— and a lot of gynecologists even, this is what I realize, are not educated in menopausal medicine because they weren't. Unless they're like endocrinologists, like most of these primary care and a lot of the gynecologists even didn't get this information. And they're getting on board now because there's, you know, the Menopause Society is really starting to, to help. But they don't know, you know, and there was a lot of hesitation with estrogen. And hormones in general. But vaginal estrogen is really helpful. By the way, estrogen on your face is really helpful too. But—

oh, I know, I know. Well, I haven't tried. So I get, I get something called Vagirax, which are little pellets, like they're little pills somewhere near my bed, and with a long applicator. But I was thinking that I might try and see if I could sneak in some cream in my next prescription. I told that when you put it on your face, it's amazing. Yeah, right.

I think, I think the compound is different, but yeah, it's— I know that there's, there's estrogen for your face. Wow. But the vaginal estrogen, I think, is a different— yeah, I should not be— I'm not that kind of doctor, so I should get a kind of—

but I'm always fascinated that, you know, I always think of California as being quite a progressive state, right? And I'm always surprised when people like yourself tell me that women are going to them with like little tears, all the stuff that, by the way, vaginal estrogen just clears up in a heartbeat, right? Like 2 weeks, a month later, they'd be like coming into your office going, I am so juicy. And, and they're just not given any information. I harp on about this all the time because it is one of the things that I hear so often from my friends, from people on the show. It's like, what are you talking about? And I just—

it's also, I swear, it's generational. Because I would say that women, women under 40 are, they are a generation that grew up with lube. But women over 50, no, like lube is still kind of like weird to them. They feel kind of funny having that at their bedside table. Women in their 50s, 60s, at this point in time, they are not used to it. And it almost feels sometimes, I feel like with their male partners especially, that why do you need that? Like, are you not turned on enough? You know, so it's cultural, it's a little bit of a cultural thing, like you shouldn't need that. And it's like, actually, we all need that. We do.

Yeah, completely. I agree. I think it is, it is age-related. I mean, I always keep lube next to my bed, but I know that sometimes I have a little twinge of feeling slightly ashamed and inadequate if, if I feel like I'm not lubed up enough.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's not about that. It's just literally the body can only produce so much lubrication and then it needs a little assist. So yeah.

Yeah. And, and you talked briefly about when couples have very different levels of desire, and what do you think is the most common mistake people make when they're trying to solve it?

I think it's the pressure. It's just, come on, like, you know, just like the guilting of it isn't going to solve it because that doesn't lead you to true desire, that leads you to obligation. Uh, I, I, you know, when I'm working with couples, it's more like, okay, how do we get you into the desirous space? Because there's usually a high desire partner and a low desire partner. But that low desire partner, let's call her she, because oftentimes it is her in the heterosexual construct. It's not that oftentimes if I, if I see her alone and I have a very frank conversation with her, it's not that she doesn't like sex. She's sometimes masturbating. She in general does. She feels neutral, neutral to maybe slightly positive about sex. She maybe doesn't like the sex that she's having because she doesn't feel that included. Her pleasure doesn't feel that important or prioritized. And so she's kind of ambivalent about it. And so if we can get her to a place where she enjoys the sex that she's having, it feels like a very different conversation.

But if she's not having the sex that she enjoys— and I suspect that's why often women just abdicate from sex— it's like they just haven't really experienced any sexual pleasure. And for men, the gold standard is penetrative sex. And maybe that's not their gold standard because maybe they just really like oral sex, or they just like, you know, fingers or something like that. Maybe they just want different sex. How do you bring up with a partner that actually the sex that you've been having all this time, the reason why you're not feeling it is because actually you finally feel liberated to abdicate from it. And I think that's often what happens with older women, right, is that they just go, you know what, I've not been having good— I've just not been enjoying this. And so I'm now past procreation, I'm in a good place now to just say, yeah, I'm tired every single night, I'm tired. And, you know, because getting a man to hear that they haven't been pleasuring their partner is very difficult.

I mean, it doesn't— ideally, you don't want it to be this, this big, like, brush towards, like, the last 30 years have been terrible. That doesn't feel good, right? But it's like— and also, you don't want it to be this transactional feeling of, like— because oftentimes it's not about the mechanics of the sex exactly. What I find is that she wants more relational exchange. That feels good to her. It's not about like, kiss me in this way. It's about have some conversation with me, relate to me, like make me feel like we're having a relationship first, and then I feel more inclined or interested in amorous things with you. But you don't want it to turn— you don't want it to become this, this sort of, you know, quid pro quo where it's like, okay, you be nice to me and I'll have sex with you. Because then it's like, but it, it sometimes can feel that way, right? Because then it's like, okay, he'll behave today so that he gets to have sex with you at the end of the night. So it's— you got to be careful how it goes. Ideally You know, both of them feed into this, into the cycle. And I've seen all of this reversed too. I've seen women who have a much higher sex drive and men who are looking for more relational connection. It absolutely can be the inverse of what I'm describing, but you have to understand what each partner kind of wants. And, and that's not fixed, but trying to get them to engage in that way and, and participate so that there's some awareness. Um, I, I do find that sometimes the higher desire partner is just— it's easier for them to shift into that physicality and just— right, they could just access it so much easier. Whereas the low desire partner typically wants more relational cues. They want to feel like they matter. They want to feel like they've— like their brain has been stimulated.

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I think though, you know, after decades it is difficult for couples to bring excitement back into their lives. Just generally, I think it's one of the hardest things. I've discussed it endlessly with people. It's like, what are the practical steps that people can take to bring intimacy and sex back into relationships where perhaps you know, they've gotten bored, it's become monotonous, somebody's stepped back and said they don't want it, whatever the reason happens to be. What do you think are some of the practical ways that people can start to re-engage with, with intimacy if they've been in a long-term relationship?

As you have been with somebody longer and longer, you feel like you know them, you feel like you know everything, you can finish their sentences, because you have all the shared history. So I would challenge that and say you are separate people. You don't actually read their mind. You— they have an inner world that you don't know about. And if you get really curious about that, and if you show some interest, and if you— I don't know— if you attune, people like that. If you go, tell me about you, tell me about your day, what's going on with you, If you start to have a little friendly— and everybody's got their own style and what they like, but these couples— there was a great book that Peggy Kleinplatz wrote, I don't know, a couple years ago called Magnificent Sex, and they interviewed a bunch of older couples that had been together for, I think, 20, 40 years, you know, long, long term, about what, what it was. And it was so much about their relational quality. And I really, really agree with that because these couples I see, it just backs that up. It's like, can you have banter? Can you show interest, right? The couples that have humor, the couples that have shared— not just shared interest because you don't have to have that always, but can you be interested in each other? That's, that's where the spark— I see the spark start to light up a little bit. And that's where when the when you're in the playful zone, that's when you start to go, hmm, I kind of do want you again. You know, when that's where desire lives, in that quadrant of play, of explore, of creative, of, you know, like, let's be a little, like, playful together.

Yeah. And what I'm hearing is that is the word that is often missing in so many of these relationships is curiosity. Is, is be still remaining curious, both about the world and about each other. And I think often, even when I go on dates, sometimes, and, you know, lots of women, not just of my age, but this is a common, you know, complaint that I hear women make all the time when they go on dates. It's like, he just spoke about himself the whole time. He just wants— he just wanted to tell me about himself the whole time, right? And it doesn't take much to ask. You know, how was your day, right? Like, like, these are some really simple questions that can open the doors to conversation. How was your day? You know, what'd you do today that made you happy?

Like, instead of let me impress you, it's like, let me know you a little more. Like, tell me about you, right? Well, like, people like to feel like you're interested.

Yeah, I mean, as soon as a man asks me, how was your day? The most simple question in the entire universe, but question I rarely get asked, rarely get asked. And I'm always like, are you not curious? Do you, do you, do you not want to have some idea of who I am? Or is it just merely— I mean, look, I, I can flatter a man's ego as much as any woman, but after a while it does become rather predictable and frankly quite boring for me. To sit there and just, you know, constantly be feeding some, some man's ego. And I think some of those practical tips are just like, be curious, like ask questions, because women want to feel like they're being heard. Right. And I think often that, as you said, it— for low libido partners who are looking for more relation, you know, more relational aspects to come out with their partner. Just hearing some simple questions every day, like, guys, just make it, just make it a thing that you do every day. How was your day? What happened?

Listen and actually listen to the answer. Don't just ask the question, listen to the answer.

I know it's small. It's, it's really small things though. I mean, it's real, you know, it is really small things, but I often think that it is these little practical things that men are looking for. Like, just tell me what to do. Just tell me what to do.

Yes, I can guess.

Like, what do I have to do? What do I have to do to be able to have sex with my wife or my partner again? Just tell me.

It's like, give me the shortcut. Yeah, show interest.

Show interest. I think show interest should just be like— that should just be the headline of any relationship counselor's, like, above their door. Show interest, right? In anything. Show interest in their pleasure, show interest in their lives, just just be curious, show interest. I think it's, it's not really that hard. Yeah, I mean, is there anything else you'd like to add to this conversation? Because I'm— we're at our 30 minutes and I feel like we've— I feel like I've made a breakthrough here in terms of what we can share with men now that might—

I think, I think we've got the key, right? The key to the kingdom. Yeah, we got it. We solved it.

Yeah, just guys, just show interest. That's it, really. You want her to have sex with you, just show interest. Show interest. And more importantly, as Jen said, listen.

I think we're good. If women, or, you know, people in general are interested, I do have pleasure susanoble.com/project.us— if you go there, I've got a whole course that is about understanding sort of what your sexual history has been and envisioning where you would like your actual history to go. I've got a whole course. So this is like, this is like a mashup of the sex therapy that I've been doing. This is a course I taught, and then I built it into an asynchronous version so that people could take, and it just walks through so much inquiry, a lot of information in terms of understanding. And all the languaging is towards women, but I've used it with couples too. So if you're interested, it's a deep dive.

We'll put a link to that. That sounds amazing. I love that. Jen, it's wonderful talking to you. Enjoy your day in Santa Barbara. Thank you. And take care.

All right, sounds good.