How Roadless Races Creates Trail Events Built Around Adventure & Community Ep 157

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All right. Welcome back to the Find Your Edge podcast. I am your host, Coach Chris Newport, and Today I have a fellow race director joining us to talk all about roadless races. So I'm excited for you guys to get to know Jim and his company.

And, um, because I had a really, really fantastic experience at one of his races last year and think that everybody should do them because Jim, you have supremely well-run races.

And I especially appreciated the pickles at the end.

A lot of people do.

Yes, I know some people do. They race for like the swag and some people race for, you know, to try to win. And, you know, clearly I race for food.

So, so Jim, welcome to the podcast.

Excited to have you.

Well, thanks, Chris. I appreciate that. And it's nice to be here.

Very cool.

All right. So Jim, give us a little bit about your background.

How did Roadless Races come to be? Because I know you're located in the Raleigh-Durham area, but you've not always been here.

So tell us about that. Yeah.

No, you're right. I started my race directing career, which I had no idea it was going to become a career.

Really?

Yeah. No, I didn't really know. I just sort of fell into it, but happily fell into it. Yeah. It was back in 1999, believe it or not. Yeah, a long time ago. Yeah, 26, 27 years ago. I was actually applying for a job. I lived up in Virginia at the time in Northern Virginia. And, I was applying for a job at George Mason University's Outdoor Education Center. And, I'd worked there part-time as sort of a ropes course facilitator or a team development guy, you know, and they were hiring for their adventure programs manager. And so I threw my hat in the ring and had an interview with the director of the facility. And she asked me, so, Jim, if you got this job, you know, what would you like to do in this role as adventure programs manager? And I was like, well, I'd really like to start a freshman wilderness program. I'd like to continue your rock climbing programs and your paddling programs, and I'd like to start an adventure race. And, she was like, wow, that sounds great. What's an adventure race? And so, I explained it to her. This was sort of in the real infancy of adventure racing back in the— obviously, in late 1990s. And, I think the only thing that was around at that point were sort of the expedition races like Eco Challenge. I don't know if you remember that with Mark Burnett.

Yeah.

He eventually went to put on Survivor and a whole bunch of other television programs. But I explained that what I would like to do with this adventure race is create an event, a team-oriented event that people would navigate trekking, mountain biking, paddling, And then there'd be sort of special obstacles along the way. And it'd be a 1-day event, sort of what we would call a sprint adventure race as opposed to an expedition race. And she really liked the idea. And so she's like, great, you're hired.

That's how you're like, oh my God, what did I just walk into?

Right. So that first year, it took a lot of planning and I really didn't know what I was getting myself into, but I found out. And, and the first year went really well. We had 30 teams of 3 that, that competed and everyone had a great time. No one got significantly lost or no one got hurt. So these are all big wins, right? So, and everyone had a great time and it was a really great feeling for me to kind of create this, have this vision of this event and And see it come to fruition. And, and so it was a big, big success the first year, and there's like, great, let's do it again. So the second year we did it again, and the second year we had 75 teams of 3. So we more than doubled the, the entries. And again, everyone had a great time. It was awesome. And then as we were debriefing with the staff at Uh, Hemlock Overlook is, is where I, I worked. Uh, the director's like, Jim, we really want you to focus on other things. So we want you to drop Venture Quest, which is what the name of, name of this. And I was like, are you kidding? Are you serious?

No way.

There's no way you want me to drop this. There's, it's just, it's been a huge success. And they're like, yeah, we really want you to focus on the paddling and the rock climbing and all this other stuff. I was like, oh man. Okay. I don't think I can do that. I said, let's figure out a way to make it work. Okay? So, I just came up with a plan. I was like, look, why don't I start my own company? I'll take VentureQuest. It'll still fulfill the goals of that program, which is basically to get sort of corporate people out to the facility to kind of check out what's going on at Hemlock Overlook. But, in addition, I will do all the paddling and all the rock climbing and still do the freshman wilderness program that I created as well.

Wow.

So we'll still do all that, and you'll only have to pay me half my salary. And, uh, so she said, all right, let's do it. So that's when I started my first company, and that was called EX2 Adventures. Um, and the rest is sort of history. I've been doing races ever since.

Wow.

Uh, I worked part-time basis for a couple of years, uh, doing, you know, that race, and then That 4th year, I started a mountain bike series called the Cranky Monkey. And then after that, I started a running series called the Backyard Burn series. And then after that, I created another, an off-road triathlon, an XTERRA that I did, started in 2004, and that still exists today. And I put on races in Northern Virginia under EX2 Adventures, which was my former company for Close to 18 years.

Wow.

And in 2017, we sold it to a really, really great guy named Andy Bacon, and he took it and just made it shine even more than it did in the past. So, he's done a really wonderful job with it. We were just sort of looking for some new challenges and new adventures and a slower pace of life. And so, my wife and son and I, we decided to pack up and move down to Chapel Hill and That's what we did. And, and for the first, I guess, year, I just sort of decompressed and didn't do a whole lot of anything. But it wasn't long before I started dreaming up new race courses.

Yeah. Okay. So it sounds like this is perhaps, shall we say, an addiction? And also, like, these names are freaking brilliant. Like, are these just like come to you in a dream or?

Actually, a lot of them we brainstormed. So the Cranky Monkey name actually, which still exists today under EX2 Adventures, is I was brainstorming with my wife. We were headed down to my niece's birthday party in Virginia Beach, which is about usually a 3-hour drive. Traffic was so bad we never made it, but we had 5 hours. We got about 5 hours in and we're like, we just got to turn around. It was like wall-to-wall traffic. It was crazy. And we're like, we're never gonna make the party. Let's just turn around. And so we, we got several hours in the car where we brainstormed and just going over a whole bunch of ideas. And then she eventually said Cranky Monkey and I was like, that's it. That is—

I figured it was gonna be, you guys were pretty cranky from being in the car.

Well, maybe that was part of it. I don't know. But yeah.

Wow. So what, how many races did you have on your roster prior to selling?

About 20. Yeah. So 20 races per year and did that for, uh, eventually I'd say probably in 2008 or 2009, we had gotten to 20 races per year. And that, that was kind of the sweet spot really. Uh, any more than that was, we'd just be pulling our hair out. And, and so, uh, uh, we stuck it at that and, and then eventually, yeah, uh, handed over the reins in 2017.

Wow. So, I mean, that's, that's, that's racing like practically every other week.

Yeah. Well, during— we've— our season was from March until, um, early December, late, late November. And so about 3 months off, which I, you know, it's air quotes because it's really not off. You're, you're planning, uh, you know, I started planning for 2027 a couple of months ago. So, uh, it, it takes at least a year sort of life cycle to, to get races up and running. Wow.

Yeah. So you, so you came down to Chapel Hill and then you kind of decompressed a little bit, but you got the itch again. And then did you think you were going to start another company or, or did this come out of the blue a little bit?

Yeah, I always knew that I wasn't— race directing wasn't done for me, you know. Um, so when we were— when we came down, I— there was one event that I got hired to do sort of on a consulting basis up in Virginia. It was a road bike ride, actually, a charity road bike ride. It went really well. We did that for several years. And then another event, a gravel grinder that I work with the guy who bought my company, Andy Bacon. I work with him and EX2 Adventures on that, and we do that every year. And that's a very large ride. We've got about 1,200 riders, and that's up in Loudoun County, Virginia. It's called the Loudoun 1725 Gravel Grinder. Loudoun County being right outside of Washington, DC, and it has the largest and oldest network of gravel roads in the entire country, over 300 miles. It's very impressive. And the gravel is absolutely stunning. I mean, there's so much history there. There's Civil War, big rock walls, the same footprint for a lot of the roads that were back in the early 1700s. 1725, referring to the year that that area first developed, was first developed. So Loudoun 1725 Gravel Grinder, and it benefits the whole— the cause really is to preserve the gravel in Loudoun County. So we donate a portion of the funds to that cause. Yeah, so it's great.

Yeah.

And I get to work with my old, you know, staff, you know, so I get to see— it's like a little reunion. It's awesome. It's great.

That's so cool. Yeah. So 1,200 riders for that. I think that just passed, right? It's in August?

It's in June. Yeah.

It's in June. Okay.

That was in June.

Yeah. Because I remember you were telling me about that. I was like, oh, man, maybe I'll have to get a gravel bike. And you're like, no, no, no, I do it on my mountain bike.

Yeah. I don't even own a gravel bike. I don't own a road bike. I am a mountain biker and I love mountain biking. I got to tell you, I really do. I just went for a ride this morning and I live in Briar Chapel, which you've been there probably.

Like literally right outside it. Like it's part of your neighborhood.

Yeah. I mean, when we were looking at the lot here in Briar Chapel, we were literally standing there and the real estate agent was explaining sort of, this is going to be the last home on this street. And we could obviously tell that, but, and you know, there's a lot going on here, a lot of events and all that. And then all of a sudden, 4 mountain bikers go riding by within, I'd say, 50 feet of where we are. And I was like, what's going on right there?

What's up with that?

And she said, oh yeah, by the way, there's 15 miles of trail here and eventually there's going to be over 20 miles of trail. And I was like, oh, okay. And our son was 7 at the time. And that sort of coupled with the fact there was kids running everywhere, and we were looking for that sort of environment for him. It sort of all came into place, and we decided to move here.

That's really cool. So when did Roadless Races officially kick off, and what was your first inspiration?

Well, I mean, I think just living here and riding the trails. The trails are 100% legit too. And you don't—

A couple of races in Briar Chapel. So like, yes. How cool is that? That you literally like roll out of bed, extremely on the— you're on the course.

Yeah, it's very cool.

Yeah.

So I literally drive 2 minutes to the staging area. And so if I forget something, I'm like, all right, I'll just run home real quick and get it.

You know?

So it's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, I wanted to create something in the neighborhood and there was demand for that. And the homeowners association really wanted that. I really feel like they embrace events in general, but community gatherings. And so it fits right in sort of the mission of what Briar Chapel is all about. And so I was like, hey, I've got some experience putting on races. Do you mind if I go ahead and do one? And they're like, sure.

A little bit of experience putting on races.

Yeah. And so did it, and it was a 2, 5, and 10-mile, and didn't have any staff at the time. A whole bunch of my staff from EX2 Adventures came down and helped me put it on, which was really cool. And my brother still comes down. He still comes down for every single race. He lives up in Virginia, and every single race he comes down, and he just does it because he loves it. And I love the fact that he comes down. It's really, really nice of him to do that. But I've got a great staff now. They're just, they're awesome, fun, really talented. So I feel very fortunate.

Okay, very cool. I think everybody needs to know, like, what does it take to put these things on? So how many races do you have on your roster? How many staff do you have?

Yeah.

And then what's it look like for volunteers race to race? I'm sure there's some variation, but.

Yeah, so we have 12 races on the roster, one of which is a virtual event called the Zen Squirrel Challenge. Basically, you run as much as you can or walk as much as you can over the course of the month of February. And then, along the way, I send emails and try to motivate people the best I can to kind of keep up the mileage and keep it going. We've got prizes and giveaways and cool medals and really great t-shirts and all that stuff. And it's in February, it's cold, no one wants to go outside. So it's just a way to motivate people to get out more. And it totally works. I mean, when the pandemic started and we had to sort of switch all of our live in-person events to virtual stuff, I was like, what is a virtual event? Like, I just didn't get it, you know? And, but I get it now. I really do. Because The challenge is something that we're still doing today, and yet most of the virtual stuff has sort of gone by the wayside ever since in-person events have come back. But I really enjoy it. I like personally, because I can participate in it and I can't do that with my other races, right?

Right.

So I get to get as much mileage as I can over the course of the month. And it's really just an incredible way to motivate you to get out and do more, especially when it's cold outside or snowing. sleet or whatever and, and, and, and get the miles in. So anyway, that's, that's one of them. And then we've got 11 other events, 2 of which are mountain bike races and then 9 trail runs.

Wow.

So yeah. And staff, we have 8 staff. Wow.

Yeah.

So we have 8 staff and they're all part-time. You know, nobody, nobody makes a ton of money doing this. They do it because they want to do it. They, they do it because they're passionate about what we're all about. They love building community and putting on really fun, crazy adventures for people. And so, but they do get paid and it pays for a little bit of food and their gas money and stuff like that. So, that's a good thing. And volunteers, I say we generally have between 5 and 25 volunteers at a particular race. Sometimes the larger events, they take a lot more. Like the gravel grinder that I was talking to you about, the one that I partnered with on with EX2 Adventures.

Huge.

Yes, it's massive. We have, I'd say, almost 100 volunteers for that one and multiple aid stations with all different types of food and catering. And it's very involved, a ton of fun, but nothing quite that large here with roadless races. So But yeah, volunteers, they just come and I think it's just really important to treat the volunteers well. And we give them sort of discounts into future racing, a race t-shirt. And our t-shirts are really, really nice. They're really nice.

Yeah, you do have nice t-shirts. I can attest to that.

Yeah, they are. They're nice. And our logos are cool. But really, I think more than anything, it's giving them Putting them in roles where they're going to be really used. And, I ask for what their sort of skills are. So, if they've got medical experience, I'll put them at a far-off aid station. So, if anything goes down, then we've got a first line of defense right out there. And, I know that I've got a doctor or nurse or EMT or something that's out there in addition to the medical professionals we have on site. Uh, you know, some are, are big mountain bikers or runners, and so I'll have them, you know, sweep the course, you know, cuz we need that as well. So, uh, some are just great with customer service, so they'll be on check-in and, and helping pass out water and Gatorade.

So, yeah. So it is, uh, it's quite the operation. Yeah.

Yeah, I'd say.

Yeah. Very cool. Uh, the t-shirts and the medals and whatnot reminded me of, and we talked about this when we chatted a few months ago. What's your Thanksgiving race? Tell us about that event and how unique it is in terms of the swag that they get.

Oh, I think you're talking about the leftovers.

Yes.

Yeah.

So freaking brilliant. So I got to be there. Just all of our listeners come to this race because I'm coming and sweeping.

Thank you. I agree. It is a really cool idea. And I will say it is not my idea because I've seen this done in other locations. But, I really like the idea. I think it is amazing because it sort of demonstrates sort of your commitment to sustainability. And, we try, and I will never say that we run a green event. I'll never say— I mean, I don't want to say never, but because there's always trash that's accumulated. You've got carbon offsets that you're not going to be perfect, but we do the best we can. We recycle. We could compost, but we haven't found a good provider for that. And then there's a lot of other things involved with that as well. But so for this Leftovers event, basically what it is is a 5K and a 10K. It's 2 days after Thanksgiving. We do a turkey trot too, by the way.

Okay.

But this Leftovers race is 2 days after Thanksgiving. We take all of our t-shirts that are left over from really from any of the races in the past, And, we lay them out on tables. So, you've got a table of unisex small, a table of women's medium t-shirts, a table of youth large. And, whatever size you are when you're checking in, you go over to that table and you just pick whatever one you want from a past race. And, when you check in, you get a bib from one of our past races. It could be a half marathon bib, yet you're doing the 5K. It's all good. So, um, so you'll get a bib from a former, uh, you know, uh, race. And then after the race, we have all of our medals lined up on the table and you get to select the medal that you like. It could be any of the medals. The one thing that we do sort of in terms of merchandise that we do buy for this is we, we get new ribbons that say Leftovers Race on it. Oh, that's cool. And we take the old ribbons off the other medals and we put the, the Leftovers ribbon on there. So it's kind of like, if you're a football fan, I don't know, but it's like the Pro Bowl, you know, where like all the athletes have, um, their team's helmet, but they've got the, the, the AFC or the NFC jersey on, right? So it's the same jersey but the different helmet. It's just, it's a, it's kind of how I think of it. But yeah, it's really cool. And I think people really enjoyed the the theme of it and the fact that we were reusing and sort of repurposing all of our swag and it just wasn't going— it was being put to good use.

Yeah, that is so stinking clever. And is it still a trail run event?

It is, yes. Yeah, 5K and 10K.

Nice. And Briar Chapel, I would assume?

In Briar Chapel.

Briar Chapel. I love it.

Cool.

So most of your races are local to the RDU area, but I think you have a few outside of town. A few, right?

We do. Yeah. We've got, um, so I'd say the furthest that we go is, uh, Burlington. So there's, um, Cedar Rock Park, um, right in Burlington. There's another one in Snow Camp called Cane Creek, and Cane Creek is actually our next race. And This event, so that's a little bit further away from Chapel Hill. And we also are Harris Lake and Lake Crabtree, which is now 286, which will be Haley's Branch.

Oh, wow.

I don't know if you know about the whole Lake Crabtree thing, but the Lake Crabtree trails got closed. So, but they, they had the 286 trails. So we did a running race there. And in the future, they're going to be redesigning those. Um, through TORC, uh, the Triangle Off-Road Cyclists, and, and Wake County are investing quite a bit of funds and resources to, uh, redevelop that area. Because a lot of those trails are, they're like fall line trails. They're not super sustainable.

Yeah.

So they had IMBA.

My husband and I call them billy goat trails.

Right.

They, uh, you know, yeah. They're a little rough.

A little rough. A little rough. So they're going to put in a stacked loop system where you have beginner, intermediate, advanced.

Oh, that's fun. Yeah.

Yeah, it's gonna be great. Yeah, it's gonna be really good. So anyway, we put on races there too, but, but getting back to your initial question, Cane Creek and Cedar Rock, 2 really fun events that we do, really beautiful parks, and they're big. The same group manages both. So I talked to the same park manager for all 3 of the events that we put on in those, in those different parks. Cane Creek is a new one. And if you've never— if the listeners here have never been out to Cane Creek, even if you don't do our race, that's totally cool. But go to Cane Creek and hike the tower because the tower is an 80-foot observation tower and it's on the tallest peak. And I say that in quotes, peak in North Carolina, east of Greensboro. So I don't know exactly what the elevation is, but it's like 1,000 feet. But But it's still, when you're on that tower and you climb to the top and you look out, it is pretty breathtaking, actually. It's pretty darn cool. And on a clear day, you can see all the way to Winston-Salem. But we figured out a way to incorporate the tower into the race.

Stop. Okay. How did you do this?

Well, so at the end, Of the 10K and the half marathon, you can climb to the top of the tower. And, this is optional. You don't have to. There's stairs that go up to the top and hang out there, ring a bell, get your photo taken, and then come back down. And, I've tested it out. It takes about 3 to 3.5 minutes. So, if you want to, that's for me and I wasn't going super fast, but I was just sort of Walking/jogging to the top and then coming back down. If you want, you can take a 5-minute real-time penalty at the base of the mountain or the base of the tower. So we've got an aid station there with water, Gatorade.

So if you don't do it, you take a penalty.

And real-time penalty. So you're going to see if you're with someone and they go up, they come back down, they do it in 2 minutes, you're going to have to sit there and wait for another 3 minutes to try to catch up to them.

Okay. Yeah. So it's not like your time is added on at the end. Like, you sit your butt down and hang out here.

You have to have a head-to-head finish is important.

Oh, that's cool. Yeah. Like in triathlon with a penalty box, basically.

Right.

Yeah, pretty much. Go up there. But it sounds like it's worth it because you get a picture taken.

You get this experience. It totally is. Yeah, it absolutely is. I highly recommend going to the top. Um, and then again, even if you don't do our race, come out and volunteer or, um, or go out there on a, on a hike and, and, and, and check it out.

And when is that race?

That is, uh, September 12th.

Okay.

So about a month away. About a month away. All right.

Yeah. Um, so any other races that you wanna highlight?

Gosh. Well, I'm glad that we talked about the Leftovers and Cane Creek because those are 2 of our more unique events, I would say, just with the tower and with this sort of the giving away of the other things. But, we've got a lot of other events that are really fun. Our Thanksgiving event is awesome and that's just a turkey trot. And, we've got several courses. We've got a more rugged 5K and 10K, but then you can also do a super mellow 2-mile. And that's great for, you know, little kids. Strollers are fine in that one. Grandma, grandpa, the whole family, um, uh, is— it's, it's excellent for that. And every year we've had that, we've sold that out. And then last year we had 600 people do it. So that's—

Yeah.

Yeah, that was a big one. It was a— it's a big event. It's right in Brown Chapel. And so a lot of people just walk to the event. It's super Convenient for that. But that's a great opportunity just to come with your flock. It's called Birds of a Feather Trail Trot and run with your flock. So bring your family on Thanksgiving Day, do a 5K or a 2-mile or a 10K. 10K is new, by the way, this year. And then 2 days later, come back and do the leftovers race and burn it up, right? So, so that's sort of the concept with that. And then, I guess the last one of the season would be Run at the Rock, and we picked this up from Junction 311. So, Mike Edwards, who is the race director for Junction 311, was looking to sort of shift gears and just really focus all on road races. And so, was looking to They, they had Run at the Rock under their sort of portfolio of events, and they were looking to find someone to take it over. And so we threw our hat on the ring, in the ring, and I actually heard about it from a couple of racers. I didn't even know about it. And they emailed me, said, hey Jim, you should check this out. I don't know if you'd be interested or not. And, and so I got in touch with Mike and we talked, and eventually we, we were able to, you know, to make that and, and pick that up. And, and so we've had it since 2022. Yeah.

That's really cool.

Yeah.

So you've got quite the unique selection of different races, mostly in this area, but a couple outside of the area. And now let's talk about things that you wish that people knew about race directing. So I want to hear your point of view, especially since I have one race, Jim.

Yeah.

You have had so many, and I don't have any plans to have any more because I admire what you do and it's so much. So, tell us the things that you wish that everybody knew about race directing.

Well, gosh, maybe I'll just tell you a little bit about kind of what race directing is like. First of all, it's It's awesome. It really is. I do need to say that because I've got complete control over my time, over my schedule, what I focus on, what I put my energy into. And I feel extremely fortunate to be in this position, to be a full-time race director. Really, since 2004, I've been a full-time race director, and it's been a blessing for sure. I'm very thankful. It is hard. The first race that we did, Adventure Quest, going back to the, at the beginning.

Yeah.

I remember I got 15 minutes of sleep that night. If you can call it sleep, it's more just closed my eyes and woke and opened 'em back up again. And our radios were like Walmart radios. Like literally I went to Walmart and bought these radios and, and we're like, oh, we'll be fine. You know? And, and you just don't know what you don't know. You know, and the emergency personnel wasn't nearly as dialed in as we have now. It really, you just learn so much over the years of doing it and you eventually get systems in place to make things quicker and more efficient. You hire the right people and you build relationships. It's all about building relationships, really. So much of it is with park managers, with volunteers, with staff, with racers, with sponsors, with the emergency personnel, the EMTs and the police that occasionally will have police that have to come out to our events. But food suppliers, the people at Costco that you see every week. You really build relationships, and and and and I enjoy that. And it's just building community really is what it is. And and I feel like it's probably the thing that I'm most proud of really when when you when I think about it. You know, looking back on EX2 Adventures, you know, EX2 Adventures is still going and still going very strong. And and one of the things I'm most proud of is building this community of people that come out and do these, you know, like-minded people that are doing these fun adventures and just. sort of improving their lives. I mean, it sounds really corny, but really you're doing that one person at a time. Their outlook might be a little rosier now. They maybe have had a really bad week, but you know what? They've got an opportunity to go train for an event and then they're doing the event on Saturday and they feel like a rock star because they got on the podium. And it's just, you don't get that It's nice that we can provide that, facilitate that so people have those feelings because that and just sort of the community that we're building is really what it's all about. That's amazing.

You can tell that you are clearly very passionate about it. And race directors like you are what are going to keep races around. And obviously, having the athletes, but you're clearly a magnet for attracting athletes who are really wanting that type of community, which I would love to hear how you can transition some people from road to trail. Do you feel like that's— for me, especially coaching so many on-road triathletes and me being an off-road athlete, I feel like that is a— that's a big leap. It's, you know, they're like, oh, I either hate it. And I know that there is a degree of skill for sure that comes both with running and with mountain biking. But have you, what have you seen in all the races that you've done of integrating trail perhaps into maybe a road lifestyle or switching over entirely?

Yeah. Well, I think that we really try to make our races very approachable for even the beginner trail runner. We don't have cutoff times in any of our races. So, even a half marathon, you can come out and do a half marathon. If someone emails me and says, hey, I want to do the half marathon, but I need to walk, is that okay? And, I always say, yes, maybe we can think of a way where you can maybe start an hour early. And so, I've done that several times and that's worked out well. But, We encourage people to come out. And even if you just walk or do a combination of walk and running just to sort of get a feel for it. Another thing you can do is volunteer because you'll get a real good understanding for sort of what makes the event tick and sort of what the community is all about by coming and volunteering. But it's absolutely approachable. I think you need to pick the right event. You know, is important. For instance, the last 2 races that we've done at Harris Lake, they're very beginner-friendly courses. They're relatively, you know, in air quotes, they're relatively flat, beautiful. You can see you've got water, lake views on a lot, especially the run. There's a lot of lake views on that. They're not super technical, so you're going to get some roots and rocks, but not a ton. And again, as an athlete, if you're coming out and you're doing this event and you ever come to a spot where you feel like, oh, this is a little too tricky for me, just walk. Just walk through that area. If you come out with the attitude that you want to win this race and it's your first trail run, you're probably going to be humbled pretty quickly because there are a lot of good athletes that come and do our event. And, that's one of the really cool things is you get the elite athletes that come and do our races. But then you also get the first-timers, you know? And, and so it's really that runs the gamut and everything in between. So just give it a try is what I would say. And if it's not for you, it's not for you. It's fine. It's all good, you know?

Yeah. Great advice. Do you have any favorite moments in all of this race directing you've done?

Oh gosh.

Or maybe Scary moments, or a little bit of both?

Oh, I've got, um, yeah, I think, I think one of my favorite moments was with our first XTERRA race that we did. Um, it was a triathlon, which is your world, you know. Um, but it was such a large undertaking for us, um, compared to what we were used to with trail runs and mountain bike races that After it was all said and done, I felt really proud that we accomplished that. It was like, wow, that was a ton of work. It was a lot of moving pieces, but it all came together. Everyone had a great time. No one got hurt. And so I think I felt really proud of us for putting that on and sort of dipping our toes in the water of a new race type. Scary moments? Wow, there's been a lot of those. We have— I try to tell, like, if I get someone who— and I get this all the time, people who contact me and say, hey, I want to put on a race, can you help me? I was like, absolutely, you know, let's talk. And so I'll try to shed a little bit of wisdom their way. And one of the things I always harp on is your emergency procedures, because it really is not a matter of if something is going to happen, it is a matter of when. And I've seen that firsthand on many, many occasions. And so, you really have to have that dialed in. You have to have emergency personnel, you know, close by so that you can call them. You have to have good communications as well. And looking back on my Walmart radios, it scares the heck out of me that we had those because they just were not okay.

Yeah.

For now. And now, we've gone through several different radio systems that we've used in the past with repeaters, and we've used ham radio groups and the whole thing. But the ones we've got now are actually quite good. They're called Rapid Radios, and they work off cell towers. And as long as you've got cell reception, I could literally talk to someone in California On my radio, if they had one.

So, it reminds me of like the original, was it like the Motorola?

Right. Like the Nextel Motorola ones. Well, it's just like that really. But they work really, really well. And so having your emergency procedures, having your communications dialed in is really, really important. And having a plan is like how if something happens, which it will, How are we gonna handle it? You know, you just gotta stay calm. You can't freak out. You gotta, um, you know, really think about the patient first and, and kind of how are we gonna, um, take this on? 'Cause we've had bad things happen at our races, 100%. Um, and luckily, you know, um, we were able to respond in a, in a way that—

And I mean, I guess that's just sort of the inherent risk, not only just of racing, but just of life. Like, you know, there's inherent risk every time you get Yeah.

And sometimes the risk, there's nothing you can do. And I'm gonna share a story with you that was probably the worst day of my life, honestly. Yeah. We had a fatality in one of our races.

Oh, man.

Yeah. It was awful. It was, it was just really bad. It was a massive heart attack. Nothing we could do about it. There was plenty of resources that went into helping that person. And it would just— there's nothing we could do. And I'll never forget it, and never forget it. And what it reminds me, though, is whenever I think of like, oh, we don't need that, you know, like maybe we don't need that, and if it revolves around safety, it's like, oh, no, we need it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, just a reminder that safety first, basically.

Yeah, pretty much.

Yeah. And like I said, from my experience with your events of like everything's super well marked, everything is, uh, you know, athlete communication is stellar. And you guys, I want a free race entry because I, I gave Jim a, uh, a review.

Yeah.

And I don't like, when I give people reviews, I'm not like, oh, he was great. Like I give very specific.

Yeah.

You know, examples of, you know, interactions with volunteers, pickle juice, you know, like—

Right. Well, you know, the feedback is amazing, and I gotta tell you that I really appreciate it when people provide a review. The reviews are great because anyone that comes and wants to do one of our events, they can read those reviews and, and they get sort of an independent, you know, take on kind of what the experience was like. And we've got nothing to do with it. We can't edit it, we can't do anything. So this is all legit, you know? And we usually get 30 to probably 60 reviews after a race. And then we give away a couple of free entries to everyone that took the time to provide a review. And you were the benefit of one of those.

And that was not— you had no idea who I was. Like, it was all the hat, right?

No, I had no idea. Yeah, exactly. And But the great thing about that is we learn a ton from those reviews. We literally, after a race, I sit down with the staff after every single event. We take about half an hour after everything's packed up and cleaned up and we do a debrief. So we go over every little thing and we're like, we could have improved the parking here. In this particular thing, we needed to do this, or this aid station needed You know, maybe an extra 200 cups or whatever it was. So we didn't need to make another, you know, trip out there to— for extra supplies or whatever that is. We go over all of it and I keep detailed notes. And then next year when that race comes along or when I'm planning the details of that, it's like, hey, you know, I've got a note in here that maybe we should consider adjusting the start time for the awards ceremony. You know, maybe it's a little too soon or a little too late. And, I do that all the time. And, people, athletes who provide a review, it's the same thing. I read all those reviews. If there's a theme especially, then I was like, okay, this is a thing that we need to address and we make changes. And, the little micro tweaks really is the way that you improve the finished experience And you, and you make it just even better than it was.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So cool. Yeah. Jim, how can people find out about the races and sign up and where should they go?

Go to roadlesseraces.com and you'll see our full lineup of races and can learn a lot about what we're all about. And of course, if you'd like to volunteer, you can do that as well. And yeah, come join us. We'd love to have you.

So cool.

Yeah.

All right, Jim. So I always like to ask folks before we head out, is there any, uh, are there one or two things that you would want people to embrace or to remember about this conversation or just about roadless races in general? Maybe even like a sense of like what you want people to— like when people cross your finish line, what do you want them to feel?

Yeah, I want people to feel like they've got a place at Roadless Races, whether they are an elite athlete or a new, new beginner, never set foot on the trails. You can come and try a Roadless Races event and, and it's, it's all just one big community, one big happy family, like a big extended family, really. It's great because we see familiar faces at most of the races, and we try to keep it really fun at the award. We haven't really touched upon this, but at the award ceremony, I like to keep it really fun and interactive and do silly games and push-up contests. We do push-up contests at pretty much every race, and they're always fun to watch.

I might steal that one from you. That's awesome.

You should. It's great. They're really fun. And we do rock-paper-scissors contests. Oh my gosh.

That's amazing.

Yeah. I was going to do like pick a number between 1 and 100 and the closest to that number wins prizes. And I had this idea to do a balloon toss at our last race at the Common Rush. And I bought the balloons, but we could never get it together. It didn't really happen. But That's gonna— that'll happen at some point.

Next time.

We try to keep it really fun. We've got great food and we want people to stick around at the award ceremony and sort of enjoy the community aspect and just sort of bask in, in sort of the afterglow of something pretty cool they just did, you know, this accomplishment and like commiserate with your fellow runners and bikers and, and talk about how— what a cool thing you just did.

Yeah, that's awesome. Jim Harmon from Roadless Races, thank you so much for coming on the Find Your Edge podcast.

You're welcome. Thanks for having me.

And thanks for being part of the community and making racing a thing. And clearly you are so passionate about it. So thank you so much for bringing that beautiful light to this area. I really appreciate it.

Thank you. I appreciate that. All right, Chris. Thanks.

Take care, guys.

Okay.

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