Gino Barbaro: CREATIVE CASH | The Tyler Wagner Show #1108

All right everyone, welcome back to another episode. Today we have Gino Barbaro with us. So welcome to the show, man.

Thanks, Tyler. How you doing, brother?

Very good, dude. Pumped to have you on. I wish I actually had hit record earlier. I think our like 10-minute convo before this was pretty cool too, but we'll leave that on private. So just to start, if you can tell us a little bit more about you and what you got going on.

Well, first of all, before I start with what I got going on, we can talk politics if you'd like. We can talk religion. You were like, we could talk anything because I think that's what makes the show interesting. I want to agree to disagree with you and I want you to agree to disagree with me. Now, I'm a multifamily investor. I love multifamily. I can get on here and say it's the best vehicle. You may disagree with me. You may think I'm a nut. I owned a restaurant for 20 years, bro. That was the hardest, most soul-sucking, most Enjoyable, painful. I can't even explain to you how that business was. It was great until it wasn't. I got sick of it. I met my partner, business partner Jake, back in 2009 at the restaurant. He moved to Knoxville in 2011 and we started buying assets in 2013. And since then we've bought almost 2,200 units. We have 1,800 right now and that's where we stand. That's the short end of it. But I've got a father of 6 kids. What else can I tell you? I've got an amazing wife, someone who's really supported me throughout. 'Cause it's really hard being an entrepreneur, being a business owner. I mean, I was just on YouTube right now and some guy said that Jake and I are grifters. We're stealing people's money because they can't afford to buy homes. And I said to this guy, I said, excuse me, have you ever run a business? I mean, like, I— how am I— how was— how was an owner of a property stealing? It's your idea to rent from me. I'm not stealing money from you. It's just the way people think about money. And I'm assuming that person has never run a business before because it is effing hard to run businesses.

No, totally. Well, okay, I have a lot of questions now and I don't even know where to start. So I like that you threw me through a loop there. I like it because there's so many different angles. But let's start on the business side just because I am curious on how, like with the multifamily, it seems so 2011, 2012, let's say that's the start. And then so 10 years, about 2,000 units. How, how does one like scale? It just seems like so fast. But obviously, there's a formula there. There has to be because, I mean, so I'm just— can you tell us a little bit more about like what have you learned, failures, successes, and how— when was it kind of the moment where you were like, "Oh, we can take this unlimited," almost like? Wow.

You've asked a lot of questions there, and I'm going to answer it this way. I had a period of life before Jake, and I had a period of life after Jake. Life before Jake, I was in the restaurant. I was grinding. I didn't really know real estate. I wanted to invest like everyone. Everyone else. And instead of going out and seeking help, I said to myself, I know what I'm doing. I've run a small business here. I can invest in real estate. So one day I met a guy named Maserati Mike. I, I like to call him Maserati Mike cuz he pulled into my restaurant, nice gold Maserati. And, and I invested $172 grand with Maserati Mike. And about 18 months later, that money was gone along with Maserati Mike. And you know, I could sit here and bitch and moan about Maserati Mike, but we've all had that story. A man with money meets a man with experience. The man with the experience gets the money and the man with the money gets the experience. That's what happened to me. And I could complain and bitch and moan like I did for a year and curl up in a fetal position. But I said to myself, what can I learn from this? And the only thing that I really took away from that was the responsibility. I needed to be responsible for my life. I sought out Maserati Mike. I partnered with him. I didn't do my due diligence. I didn't understand what real estate was all about. I went out and I sought mentorship. And in 2008, I joined a couple of mentorship programs. I invested a lot of money at that time. I said to myself, I'm going be spending a lot of money. Little did I know that that investment of $25,000 or $30,000 has 1,000x. I don't even know what it is now, but I thought it was real, an expense. And when I met Jake, Life After Jake, I had a map, I had a process. I knew how to invest in real estate. We have what we call buy right, manage right, and finance right. And that's the 3-step framework that we teach. And to your question, how did you do it so quickly? You buy one at a time. If you buy 100 units over the next 10 years, that's 1 or 2 deals. That's a, that's 1,000 units. That's, that's a lot. And that's going slow. Jake and I bought our own assets. We bought our own properties. We really didn't syndicate. Syndication is when you're raising capital. We've only syndicated 3 deals. The rest of these deals are all our deals. But I think the problem is people sit there and question, have questions like what you just asked Tyler. It seems so much, they get so overwhelmed that they don't even start. They just stop. I always say think big. But start small. And I was the pizza guy. Jake was the drug rep. If a pizza guy and a drug rep can get together, take 18 months to find their first deal, do their first deal, and then 5 years later have 500 or 600 units, I will promise you anybody can do it because it's not rocket science. I just didn't have the map before Jake. I didn't have a process. When I met him, we put the process together and I guess you can say the rest is history.

Yeah, see, and I think that— I think you're right there. That's what happens. Because even me, I mean, I've invested in a lot of different syndications And, you know, some have gone— and I shouldn't say actually some syndicate— the syndication seemed to work well. I guess maybe the percentage you get back is a little less when it's like private lending. That's where your Maserati Mike story— I've had a couple of those that are unfortunate. But so I guess here's another question on this is like, would you say if you are an entrepreneur, you're running a full-time business, it's a cash cow, it's going well. But you don't really have much time, would you recommend then like doing the syndication route or I guess just finding the time to learn it yourself? You know what I mean? Because I guess on the responsibility side of things, like I personally would love to learn it and stuff, but I also think like I have all— I have software business, I have book publishing, I have all these things. It's like the reality of me, like, and I'm down here in Colombia and South America right now, like the reality of me, like going out physically in the US finding deals myself. It's just, it's not really, it's just not really possible in this very moment, you know. So I guess, how do you gauge that on what the right move for the person to take is and finding trustworthy syndications?

Tyler, I'm going to, I'm going to sound like an attorney right now.

Okay.

The answer is it depends. No, but, but seriously, I love the question because You're asking yourself, how do I get into this venture of multifamily? Instead of saying I can't do it, when you ask the right question, you will get a better answer. The first thing I would say to anybody listening to this is it is the best vehicle out there, bar none, in my opinion. You can build a scalable business, you get amazing tax benefits, you get a yield dividend every month if you do it properly. Now, What I would say is look at your goals. What are you trying to achieve or accomplish? Are you trying to get out of your day job by doing it? Are you trying to add additional retirement income? Different ways to do it. Syndication, in your example, would probably be by far the best way to do it. You're leveraging other people's skills, other people's talents. But the caveat is you still need to learn it as a business.

You would—

if it was me, I would take the next 6 months off. I would Dive deep into masterminds, mentorships, go to a couple events, really learn the business, learn how to buy right, learn how to manage right, learn how to finance right this deal as if you're going to do it yourself. So then when a deal comes, you're like, okay, I'll invest in that deal. Or when a sponsor brings you a deal, I don't like that sponsor. I smell BS. He doesn't have a great track record. I don't like his returns. I don't like his business plan. What most people do is they say, I want to get into it. But they're too lazy to do the work and they think passively or passive income is this thing that you're going to get. There is passive income, but you got to do work on the front end to be able to understand what passive incomes look like. Because when a syndicator comes and brings a deal to you, are you betting on the jockey or are you betting on the horse? You need to be betting on the jockey. You need to be betting on the sponsor. Because if the deal is marginal but you've got a kick-ass sponsor, you've got somebody who's really in it to win it long term, that deal may have problems. Your bet with that sponsor, he's going to do the right thing. But if that sponsor is so-so and the deal is so-so, you have no shot. So the short answer to that long question, that question you just gave me, is syndications. But learn the business as if you're going to do it yourself.

Yeah. And I think that that's the— I think you nailed it there because— and even just for me, I'm becoming the example here. It's funny, it's like, you know, I wanted to get— I probably started investing pretty heavy maybe 6, 7 years ago. And I just was jumping in all these deals like crazy, you know, and I wasn't looking— I would have my dad look at some of the stuff, but more so I was just like, this looks good. They're saying a projected 18% return or something like that. I was like, awesome, let's boom, here's $100K, here's $200K. And I just went all over the place because what I was actually more doing is like diverse diversifying, right?

Yeah.

So, but even if you diversify, you should still look at the actual freaking deals, you know, just like sprinkle money everywhere.

Well, you have a— you had a sort of, I think, a sort of a good strategy because when you're diversifying, you can diversify against different operators. You may like Jake and Gino running a deal. You may like, let's say, Joe Fairless or Jorge Abreu or Robert Martinez or Brad Sumrock or whoever's running these deals. You're diversifying sponsors. You may pick them, but then you can also be diversifying markets. You may be in different cities because you may not want to be all centrally located in Knoxville, and you may be even diversifying in asset classes. You like like this shiny brand A property that's just, you know, really stable. It's preserving your wealth. But here is a value add or distressed property that may have higher returns. So there's so many different ways to look at this business. And when you're throwing money, like you said, it's a great way to diversify in, in an asset class in multifamily where I think you, you may be able to achieve different goals. One may be to preserve wealth. One may be to expand your wealth. One may be a longer term hold. One may be a shorter term hold. That really comes down to the investor, to yourself, to what you're trying to accomplish. Does that make sense?

Of course. No, it does. And actually, because I normally ask this question first, I want to go back a little bit, but I was excited about the 2,000 units there. So when, when you were like middle school, did you— I know obviously restaurant business was before the real estate, but when you were in middle school, did you foresee yourself doing like running a business? Was that already in the forefront or what was the plan? I'm always just curious how things divert from your kind of middle school thought process. And then when reality of life kicks in and then you do, you know, I guess what you have to do or what you want to do, it could be a combination of both. But just curious what you were thinking you would become and then what actually occurred.

Would you mind if I shared a story with you when I was a little kid? I mean, with my dad?

Yeah, let's go.

I mean, yeah, this for me, I actually made this realization a few days ago. I mean, I was 9 years old and I remember going to the restaurant with my father. He owned the restaurant. And I remember walking in, and I remember seeing the fresh bread there on the floor. And I remember how proud my dad was to walk into the restaurant. So we go into the kitchen, and he starts showing me how to cut filet chickens. He's cooking in the fryer, all this dangerous stuff. But I'm actually working with him. And I saw the way people emulated him, the way people treated him, and they admired him. And his name was Vito. And Vito was in the kitchen. They loved the way he cooked. And I love the way that he taught me, and that really, I would say, shaped my life at a young age. I was a hard worker, I was committed, I was responsible. I wanted to do something that everyone would really appreciate. I wanted people to like me, and that carried on to adult— to, to, you know, when I got outta college. And that's when I opened the restaurant, cuz I wanted that feeling. I wanted that emulation of being like my dad. And at the age of 37, when he passed away back in 2007, I remember just feeling lonely. And in 2008, I came to the realization, I don't want to be at the restaurant anymore. I don't want to be here, but I do want to have a business. I do want to do something great. And then Jake and I started buying businesses. And then 2015 comes when I'm about to leave the restaurant to go into real estate full time. And I started Jake and Gino. And I don't know why I started that until I had somebody coach me through it a few weeks ago. And I think it comes down to wanted to be like my dad, wanting to be able to mentor other people, wanting to be able to continue his legacy. Because making money is great, but I think having impact and showing others and teaching others and being that person to say, hey, I helped that person to achieve something, or learning that skill set and saying, hey, Jake and Gino are just great. It just happened in the multifamily space. It didn't happen in the real— in the restaurant space. And if my dad was still alive, I may not be doing real estate right now. I may still be working with him. But to me, I think just wanting to emulate my dad and continuing his legacy. And for anybody listening to this, go back into your childhood when you were between 9 and 15 years old. Really dive deep and see what limiting beliefs you created. See what great memories you had. Because you may be the person that's saying, I want to emulate my father, which somebody said that may be the lighthouse. You're going towards the lighthouse. Or you may be the person that's going away from your father or your mother or something else. You may be the foghorn, like, I'm going to get rich because of that person or in spite of that, understand where those, where those, I guess, those emotions come from. And ultimately, the last thing I'd say is it's so important to understand the relationship that you have with money. And for me, for many years, I didn't understand that relationship I had with money. I was a really good saver. That's why I was able to acquire 1,800 units. But with that comes a cost, because when you're able to save money and you feel happy saving money, Well, what happens when you got to spend it? It can be painful at times. I can spend it real easy for my kids, but when I have to spend something for myself or for my wife, sometimes it come— it become— it can become painful. So go back, understand the psychology you have with money. Why are you making it, spending it, wasting it? Why is that cycle going on? Understand what's going on with that, with that relationship. Because if you don't get a grasp of that, you'll never really be able to create true wealth.

It is so interesting how all this stuff ends up stemming from your childhood, cuz I, I can so relate to that. And it's actually almost the opposite of, uh, for me from what you said, where my dad worked in a, I won't say the name, but like a Fortune 50 company. And so great money, but I remember being younger and him always telling me like, you gotta work for yourself. Like you gotta work. Yeah. Cuz he just said like all the corporate bullshit that you go through, like He's like, it's not worth it. He's like, it's just, it's not. And I remember that as like even younger than 9, like just like 5 years old all the way up until he retired like a couple years ago. He's still telling me, you know, and like I, and I, I think that got embedded in me and then I was just like, no matter what happens, I am going to start my own company so that I don't have to deal with this bullshit that he was always telling me he had to deal with. And this goes back to like 5 years old and that was like the— so it's just interesting. And I think a lot of people, they get so wrapped up in like the grind and stuff, which is good, but it's also good to step back sometimes and reflect on what's working, what's not, and also the childhood, because you'll be able to see like, oh, that's how I ended up here. Like, this actually wasn't an accident.

Yes, this is Tyler Wagner. Did you ever ask your father why he didn't quit and go into work for himself?

Not— oh, not— I've never actually directly asked him that, but I think I do know why, though. I think it was just because, you know, kids, wife, and just not— it was like a risk, I think. And he didn't want to take the risk. So I think that's— I think that's why.

It's interesting. It's the narrative we tell ourselves. It's our limiting beliefs. And I had that really early on. So anyone listening to me, I'll pull this into multifamily. When somebody hears about apartment buildings, You need money to make money. It takes money. And, you know, our very first deal, we bought a 25-unit apartment complex for $600,000. We needed $80,000 because we use seller financing, and seller financing is coming back right now. Syndications are a great way to get into this business with very little bit of your own capital in the market. So understand what your limiting beliefs are. What are those messages you're saying to yourself? Because they held me back for a long time because I had that one restaurant for over 20 years. I had my mom telling me, We need to stay small. Don't take risks. She would actually say to me, you know, Gino, you're lucky. Your friends, they all hate their jobs. At least you've got a little business here. And I'm like, mom, that's the litmus test. They hate their jobs and I'm lucky that I have this. I mean, what kind of life am I building here if I'm trying to go off of what everyone else is doing just because they feel miserable and I'm okay over here? And oh, by the way, COVID hits. I have a restaurant in New York. Imagine if I was still at that restaurant. So anyone out there, anyone out there saying to themselves that there's no risk in working for somebody else, there's risk in every every single thing that you do.

Yeah, I think I've actually come to the conclusion that there's more risk working for other people. I could be, maybe I'm biased on it, but I just think you don't really have any control. Like you run your own thing. I mean, yes, it's all dependent on you, but if you really believe in yourself and your ability, that's a good thing. You know, like I, I want it to be dependent on me. I don't want my destiny to be dependent on this guy, you know, 50 levels above me that I never talk to, don't know anything about in a big corporation. So I think that scares the hell out of me actually, to work in a big company.

You know what scares me too, though, Tyler? When you're working for a company like that, you're building and you're— and this is probably for entrepreneurs. We're speaking as two entrepreneurs right now. You're creating something and you're building something for somebody else. When you're working for somebody else and you have no control. I had a student about 2 years ago, we were at a boot camp, and he told me the story. It was really painful. He'd worked for this company for 20 years, and it was in July, and they were letting him go. And he's sitting outside of the offices on the street, and he's looking up at the building, and he's like, I put 20 years of my life in that building. They won't even let me back in. Can you imagine how crappy you must feel after dedicating 20 years of your life hard? And it's not even about the money. Who cares about the money? It's all of the creativity, all all of the passion, all of the desire, everything you've put into that company, and then they can just let you go on a whim. I mean, I felt, and it's fortunate for him, he was starting to build a portfolio on the side, so he was able to start scaling into real estate. That's why, you know, do the hustle. If you, if you're working your, your corporate job, you're working, whatever, start out, start now so that in 3 to 5 years you have the optionality. You don't have to leave your job, but that word autonomy from the book Psychology of Money, when you have your own autonomy, when you can make your own decisions to tell your boss to fly a kite, That is what drives true happiness, true success. Not making the money, but the decision to be able to say that. I think people get that confused. Money's not going to make you happy. What, what I think money derives is that autonomy, the ability to work where you want to, when you want to, whether you're in Colombia, whether I'm in St. Augustine, Florida, wherever you want to. That's what really leads to true happiness. And I think being an entrepreneur, that's probably the biggest benefit of being an entrepreneur.

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think people— again, I think it comes back to people just not taking the time to reflect on things. Right. And that's— and you can call that— that is part of the work. Like, people think when you sit back and you're just thinking and maybe brainstorming, like, that's not the work. Like, the work's on the computer or the work's out doing the deal. Dude, half the battle is actually the strategy and the understanding of things. So to me, it's just, you know, I remember back to the money thing that you said when I made my first like $10K a month, maybe this was like, I don't know, 9, 10 years ago. And dude, I never felt more free in my life. I like anything after that. And I obviously, with, you know, how the dollar value has been going, like things, and especially Miami, like things have like quadrupled since then or something crazy. But so maybe it's $20K a month now to be equivalent. But anything after that has just been like icing on the cake. But as far as me feeling happier or like more free, or I honestly, And especially down here in Colombia, everything's 90% cheaper anyway. I feel like I got Monopoly money down here. You literally can't— you could try to run out of money down here. It won't work. Like, so it's just, it's just funny. So more necessarily isn't more happy. And there is actually a study on that. I think it was like $70K a year at the time of the study. This was maybe 5, 6 years ago. Like anything above $70K a year for people, their happiness level was like very minorly jumped, but it was nothing like nothing notable. So, nothing changes their happiness. So, one other element that I want to touch on. So, 6 kids, that's pretty awesome. Congratulations. I want to be a father someday. I'm not there yet, but I want to get there within the next couple of years, hopefully. So, I guess a few questions around that. As far as balancing, because just from talking to you, I can tell, and you can tell just by your accomplishments, very motivated, very driven, probably work a lot and you enjoy it. How do you balance the family life and work life?

I think there really is no balance. When we had our first daughter, we had our first daughter back in 1999. We decided to homeschool. So she was in, you know, 2003, 2004, she was 4 years old. I was the weird guy because no one homeschooled back then. It was like the weird thing to do. And I was just— guess I'm cutting edge. And what I did is I would work in the morning. I'd homeschool with her for 45 minutes in the morning, then go to work, and then they'd come by the restaurant, and they were just part of my life. And I think that's what we have to understand. When you have to do work, you do work. When you're at home, you're at home. Like I said, I'm blessed. My wife is a stay-at-home mom. She's the cook, she's the doctor, she's the healthcare practitioner, she's the chauffeur. So she takes care of the house, and she allows me to go out and to work and to focus. That's what we decided early on. And it's a thankless job to be a stay-at-home mom because no one says you're doing a great job. You're all alone by yourself, and it takes a good 15 to 20 years to see that you've actually accomplished something, that your kids aren't axe murderers. They're not— yeah, so it's really a difficult job. So for me, I always took that as a lot of pressure because she is giving me this leeway. She's giving me this, you know, go ahead and do what you got to do. So I have to be able to produce. So she's at home taking that kind of responsibility and that kind of stuff on her shoulders. I need to really come to work and not watch YouTube videos and make some money for the family. So that was my mindset. And I don't really think there's a balance. I mean, the kids are part of the real estate business. They're part of the Jake and Gino community. So I let them be part of the community. And we, you know, like them being homeschooled, they're home all the time. So it's great. I'm with them whenever I have the opportunity. And I think anyone trying to find the balance, if you're going to be a successful entrepreneur, I personally don't think there is a balance. Whenever you've got time, you spend it with them. But I will say, try to create routines. And that's one thing that we'll do is we'll create daily routines, weekly routines. Obviously, you know, I'm a man of faith, so we go to church on Sundays. So that kind of stuff, I think you have to have that embedded in your routine to be able to make sure that they're part of the plan. They are the plan. If you're out there making money, what are you making money for? You're making money to support the family and to be able to enjoy it with them.

I really like that outlook because that's the one thing I've been thinking about, just because I don't have kids yet, is I've been thinking, I'm like, like, you know, you want to be there for those like moments, right? Because they're only young for, for so long. So I've been thinking of like, when do you decide like, oh, I have this big deal, I gotta take it, or do I go to their first T-ball game, you know? And yeah, making decisions, uh, maybe, uh, difficult sometimes. But I guess if you integrate it all, then it kind of just works itself out, right? If it's not really separated, uh, although obviously there's some separation like when you go to the office, but I just As long as it's integrated enough where the homeschooling and they work with the company, like, that's really cool. So you are spending a lot of time with them still.

Yeah. Tyler Wagner Wagner, I had a rough time early on because I had the restaurant. I was in the restaurant business. So early on I missed a lot of stuff. I mean, I mean, and I think the kids understand that, like, I was working on the weekends, I was working on the holidays, and they know that Dad had to provide. I wasn't making a ton of money early on and they knew that I had to provide. And I think that understanding that you do miss things things. That's just the reality. You can't be everywhere all the time because then if you are, it becomes mundane. And that's what I think. If you're at every game, if you're at every practice, I mean, I don't think that's realistic, first of all. And I think the kids understanding that, hey, you know, mom will tell them, hey, dad's at work, he's out, he's out there making money to support us. And it's guilty, it's hard for us dads to be able to be able to not to make everything. But just understand you can't make everything. You're not, you won't be able to do that because you need to be the provider, you need to show leadership, you need to stand up, and you need to teach kids life ain't fair. You're going to have to do a lot of stuff that you're not going to want to. I've swallowed a lot of shit in my life, and I want to show them that, hey, life ain't bed of roses. It gets difficult out there. And for you to be able to show them that, it's being transparent and honest with your kids.

100%. Yeah. I always thought, because when I was younger, I played like all the sports and, you know, like sometimes in like peewee sports, like one of the dads or a few of the dads are actually the coaches.

Yes.

And I remember even being younger and thinking just because my dad at the corporation he worked at, like, he would leave like 5:00 AM, get back like 9:00 PM, 5 days a week. Like, it was because he had like an hour and a half, 2-hour commute. So it was like 3 to 4 hours. It was great. When I think back, I'm like, damn, he really provided. Like, it's pretty awesome. But I also, I would always wonder, I'm like, how do these other dads have the time? What do they do? Like, our practice would be at like 5:00, right? Because school ends or Once you get older, it's like right after school. But when you're super young, it's normally like later in the evening, but like 5 or 6. And I'm like, my dad gets home at like 9. How are these guys doing? But I guess everybody's just, you know, everybody's just different ultimately and how they do. But so a few other things for you just because you probably don't know this, but our podcast before used to be called the Authors Unite Show. That's the name of my book publishing company, Authors Unite. And I know you've published some books, so I'm just like curious on a few things there. Can you share like just your overall experience on the writing, publishing, and marketing of them and just any tips or anything that went wrong, right, in that process? Because a lot of our listeners are authors or, you know, want to become authors.

The first book will be painful, no ifs, ands, or buts. But for us, it was a labor of love. It was our Wheelbarrow Profits book that we launched in the end of 2015. It was our business plan. It was the buy right, the manage right. And the finance, right? And I remember Jake and I spending like an hour a day for like 3 months every day writing the book, editing it, and then we got, we got, uh, a book publishing company to do that one. And the second book was a lot easier. We got a ghostwriter to write the second book. It's called The Honeybee. It was a business parable. Ghostwriters aren't cheap, but we really wanted to make a nice easy book to read. It was very sim— very similar to The Richest Man in Babylon, uh, we We, you know, we call it The Honeybee. It was a night— it was a really cool parable. The third book, we co-authored it with one of our coaches, was called Creative Cash. We used a company called Scribe, who's now changed ownership, but they've done a good job. They did a really good job, Scribe. And from there, we've written 3 kids' books. Me and my wife, we've used a company called Dinosaur House. I think if you're going to write a book, have a purpose of why you're writing the book. Who are you writing this book for? Who are you targeting it towards and what is the purpose of the book. And for all of our books, they've really— I don't want to call them lead magnets, but they've really helped us out with our business plan and how we've created content around the subject matter. And it's really, hey, you're an expert. Once you've written a book, you can get on podcasts, you can share your thoughts. And for anybody out there, just budget accordingly. You want to get a Wall Street bestseller, you're going to spend $75,000. You want to get a New York Times bestseller, you're going to be in the $200,000s. This may sound shocking to you. It is a pay-to-play. Life is a pay-to-play. You ain't getting nothing for free unless you're Barack Obama where you write a book but you've got name recognition. So she does not have name recognition. Gino's gonna have to pay for it, and it's okay. But understand what your goals are when you write the book.

I'm so glad you said that because I think it's something that I'll just add to that. It's, it's funny— I don't know if it's funny, but it's just interesting where, you know, like you see people featured in articles or the bestsellers. And just because I'm actually the guy that's behind the scenes of a lot of these campaigns and stuff, so obviously I would know. But just so everybody knows, like you said, these things are pay to play. Like, that's just the way it is. Like, you're not going to hit Wall Street without a big budget. You're not going to hit New York Times without a bigger budget. And I think a lot of times authors have this false belief that, like, my book is so good, it's going to make its way there organically. And it's like, actually, it doesn't even matter if it's the best. Let's just say you wrote a book that's better than Atomic Habits, right? That's like a perennial seller now. If you don't do any marketing, it ain't gonna get there. Like, so you just gotta realize that and budget accordingly. Cuz like you said, Scribe's actually like a referral partner of ours. We do marketing for a decent amount of their authors and, you know, ghostwriting a book, it could be anywhere like $50,000 to $100,000, you know, and just, I just I love to hear that because authors, when they get into it, they really— it's— I feel like it's like an innocent per— uh, per— pursue— pursuitment. I don't know if that's a word. Uh, an innocent, uh, way to pursue something. Just, I want to write a book, I want to be an author. And then you get into it and you're like, holy shit, I've spent a quarter million dollars. And like, that's kind of— yep, that's about right. That's what it takes to really go big.

You mind if I mention two things to your point? And I'll back up your point. I would First of all, write it and they will not come, right? Market it and they will come. And I think the important thing is Robert Kiyosaki said, you're not a best writing author, you're a best-selling author. So it's really important to understand sales and marketing with the book. What are you trying to accomplish with your book? Are you just trying to credibility? Is it just for your ego? Are you trying to drive sales? What are you trying to accomplish? I think writing a book is phenomenal nowadays. I think if you're in the thought space, you're a coach, you're a leader, you need to write a book. I mean, I'm not here to promote you, Tyler Wagner Wagner, but I think everyone should. If you're serious about yourself and you have a program and you want to create value to others, put your story, because we all have a story to write. Every single one of us has something important as a gift or a talent. And you— we all have the ability to— we should at least all have the ability to put that out and put that on paper and then actually market it and target it to whoever you want to have that message be received to.

Yeah, no, and I'm glad, I'm glad you said it. And I, I wanna ask a question then about your, your podcast. But just before I do, I think it's what, what I, I think gets people stuck sometimes is they try to, especially like the engineer-minded types, and I'm not saying anything bad about them, but when people are very fixated on like ROI of a book, that's a difficult—

Yes.

Because like, as far as book royalties go, probably not going to get an ROI. Let's just be honest. Like, you know, there's those 1% or less than 1% that do. But on the flip side, it's hard to measure what the ROI is of becoming a bestseller on one of these major lists because you are that. It's like becoming a doctor. Like, once you're a doctor, you're that forever. And how you leverage that accolade or title is completely up to you. So it could be worth nothing or it could be worth tens of millions of dollars. You know, it just depends. So I think people just need to realize like it's not really a correct way to calculate like ROI on just like the royalties of the book because it's just like it's never going to— you got to have a plan on the back end. And obviously with your— you did and things have worked out, you know, very, very well for you. So, so one of the last questions I want to ask you here. So on the podcast I saw, so you have 5, let's just say probably more than 5 million downloads now. That's awesome. What has been like as far as marketing the show? Like, have you gotten that big just by merely like having guests on and then just they post it, you post it, or has there been some sort of marketing engine behind it to get that many downloads?

It's a great question. I think the most important thing is that we've been doing it for a while. I think we started the podcast in 2016. I heard a stat that 90% of podcasts that get started, they stop after 3 podcasts, and I think another 90% stop after 20. I think Jake and I were just dumb enough to continue along. We didn't— I didn't even know what a podcast was before I started. I really didn't. But I got to interview some really cool people early on. I was interviewing brokers, and that's part— that's part of the credibility we should have mentioned with the book. Now that I have a real— I have a real estate book, all the brokers know us. They know Jake and Gino. So when a multifamily broker sees a deal— we're just closing a deal next week with a broker named Andrew who met us 5 years ago because he wrote— he read our book and he always wanted to do a deal with Jake and Gino. So it gives you credibility in the space. And as far as podcasts go, they're a great way every week to mastermind with somebody different. So we've been doing the— we've been doing a how-to show in multifamily. I've got a Movers and Shakers show, which highlights our students who've closed deals. Me and my wife do a show every 2 weeks. We're interviewing some amazing guests. It's more of a family communication type of show. And then Jake and I do our flagship show, which we highlight entrepreneurs and thought leaders. I think honestly, the best way to scale your podcast is to understand, very similar to a book, what are you trying to trying to accomplish. I didn't do that early on. We just started a real estate show because we wanted to start real estate. But were we targeting investors? Were we targeting vendors? Were we targeting potential education students? We didn't know. We just started. So get really micro-focused on who you're serving, number one, and what you're trying to accomplish with the podcast. And really, listen, it's entertainment. It's entertainment and it's education. You need to have fun on these shows. People don't care about cash-on-cash returns and cap rates. They want to hear some great stories. They want to hear some type— I don't want to say motivation, but some type of way that, hey, you know what, Gino did real estate, I think I can do real estate. And then basically some tips on how to get started or some other stuff. They want to really create that connection with the person that they're listening to. And I think that's that podcast medium. I mean, between YouTube videos and audio, it's the best way to do it. That and a book, those are two things that you need right now if you're going to go into business to become a thought leader.

Yeah, I think they're, those two are the foundation. And I think where people, and there, there is an argument, I guess, for the other side, but my, my response is just do both. And what I'm saying there is some people say like, I need to wait to do a podcast or a book once I'm established. And my thing would be like, no, you should write your book now. It doesn't have to be your last book. You can do multiple books. And that's for the brand. Do the podcast for the relationships and learning and brand too. But just like yourself, like for me, this podcast, like I just do it now because I realize this is something I'd want to do when I'm 80. Yeah. Because I just love doing it. And you get to learn, like I've done now almost 2,500 shows. Like the amount of knowledge that is like from that combination, I can't even tell you, like it's been the value of it's been insane and just relationships. It's so awesome. So I think those two things, there's, there's the argument for both sides, like do it to start and then you have the brand building, um, pro from it. And then after you are established, write your memoir, you know, that's fine. But it doesn't mean you need to wait to do it.

You know, Tyler, what I would say is anyone looking to start a podcast, start, and your podcast shows can be transcribed into a book. I mean, that so many people have done that before where you have 15 or 20 episodes. I have a concept called the Baby Money Soldiers, and it's really a dollar, how we spend dollars. And I could probably, when I want to do 20 to 30 episodes of that show, of that concept, really teaching people about financial Intelligence. I can do podcasts on that. You can get those transcribed, you give it to an editor, and you have your book right there if that's something that you want to do. So now you've got a book and you've got a show, you've got a podcast. So I mean, it's just so many different ways to do it. Like you said, I just think people don't have the clarity on, you know, why they're trying to do it. Do both. I mean, don't be afraid. Write the book, get someone to help you write the book, buy a microphone, get a Libsyn account, and let it rip.

Absolutely, dude. I love— I actually say let it rip a lot too. I love it. No. And I think what it is too is reverse engineering it, right? Like working backwards. So, you know, if you don't have a business, then I guess it's maybe it's a little bit more difficult to discover what the purpose will be. But if you have a business, it's just like, okay, well, who are your customers? Okay, write a book for those customers. If you have a business, you want to do a podcast, well, you could interview your potential customers. Maybe some of them become clients or, or, and you could interview people that, you know, your customers would also enjoy learning from. And then that attracts more of them too. So yeah, I just think if you already have a business, I think it is, it, it would maybe take a day of brainstorming on how to reverse engineer the funnel from your book to your, from your podcast and book to your business. And it will totally grow your business. Like it's, it's unavoidable. It's gonna happen. So dude, I don't know what else to say. All I can say is I've enjoyed this and I, the last question I have for you is if we haven't covered anything that you wanted to cover, I want to leave the floor to you and then let people know where to find you, socials, books, all that stuff. And yeah, really enjoyed it, man. Appreciate you coming on, bro.

I could talk to you for the next 2 hours just about business, about life. I think we take life too seriously sometimes. And money should be viewed this way. If you've got a problem and you've got money and money can solve that problem, then you really don't have a problem. It took me a long time to understand that, and I was always in the scarcity mindset. I was always always thinking about saving for a rainy day. I was always thinking about being scarce, and I had to have all the deals to myself. And once I understood the abundance mindset, and thanks to Garrett Gunderson, I think he's an amazing author. I think he's an amazing speaker. Once I read his Killing Sacred Cows book and then, you know, Master Money Mastered, he's written a new book. I started to understand that we're here really to find out what our sole purpose is. Why are we here on Earth? We're not here to make money. We're here on Earth to have a good time. To create impact and to leave a legacy. And if you can take it from that perspective, if you do that, the money is going to appear because money is just a result. If you're really here to do what you're meant to do and you get to be really good at it, money is just a byproduct. If you can figure that out, realize that out at a younger age, my life will be a lot more enjoyable and it'll be a lot easier for you.

Could not agree more. And I agree on the two. I'll have to have you back on because I actually want to say a lot in response to that, but I'll leave people hanging for part two. So, and also, just so we don't forget this, do you have like website or how can people stay in touch?

So that's to see the value. There's no value proposition. I completely forgot about it. It's JakeandGino.com. Just go there, check us out. We've got blogs, we've got podcasts, all the articles there. Just, just go to the website.

Perfect, man. Thank you again for coming on. I appreciate it.

Thanks, Tyler Wagner.