Jay DoranHow Did We Get Here? Round 2 | The Authors Unite Show #971

All right, we are on. Welcome to the show. We are back. Jay Duran round 2. How did we get here again? That's what we'll call this one.

I would like to ask everyone to watch the first one so they can see the contrast of what I'm attempting to do today, which is be less anxious.

Yeah, you know, dude, okay, I'm glad you said nervous. Okay, on the first one, I wasn't nervous, but I was like excited. And I noticed on the first one, my excitement— and actually, in a lot of interviews, sometimes it gets so out of control and I really should like calm myself down. And then I think I— and like have kind of like Jordan Peterson or something, you know, if you ever notice in a lot of the interviews that he's been doing lately with his daughter Michaela, he's like leaning back and he's like this and just like just takes it in and then lets it serenade and then he responds. And it's not like so like, you know, because I love doing this, so my natural state with this is like, let's go, man, I'm excited. So, it's interesting.

Do you think you're missing something if you're in that state?

I don't know. Maybe. That's what I— well, the last— our last interview, I think potentially, right? Because I think we noticed in the last one, you did probably— which is, I mean, I'm the one interviewing you, but you did probably 85%, 90% of the talking. And I think because I— maybe it was due to my excitement and not my internalizing what you're saying and actually providing a full like response of what I really think or believe. So it's possible. I guess we'll find out on this recording.

How many have you done since?

Um, since that, when did we do that one? I'd have to check.

Well, let's just say 2 months ago, 3 months, 3 months, um, a little bit less, maybe probably like 50, 60 interviews then since then because what's the average time like?

Like about an hour.

What percentage are you— you— are you— if you broke it down off the top of your head without looking at the hard data, what percentage do you think— well, number one, are they interviews as a definition, or are they open dialogues? Like, what's the context? What are the guests expecting when you come on?

It's kind of a hybrid because what I tell them is You know, look, the interview is about them. And actually, what I really tell them is it's very much like Joe Rogan, but one-third of the time. That's what I— that's actually exactly what I say, because I feel like on Joe Rogan, if you look at it, it's a very open dialogue. But, you know, the interview, at least it starts off, is centered around the person that they're, you know, like maybe they have a book or something like that. Like it is directed towards them, but like 30 minutes in, it goes all over the place. And I kind of like the unknown of like, I don't know where this is gonna go. I enjoy that.

Has that been your experience?

Yeah, yeah. I like it way more because, as you know, before I was doing like the 15-minute interviews, like, wait, like, well, it feels like forever ago. I guess it was only like a year or two ago.

Um, but what do you think makes it feel like forever ago?

I don't know, maybe because— that's a good question. I don't— there's, there's a lot. We're busy over here. There's a lot going on. I'm not sure. Time's going fast.

Have you gotten more from the longer ones, as in your development?

100%. 100%. Yeah, I very much like look forward to them. At the end of the short ones, I, um, I wasn't looking forward to it anymore.

How are you structuring it in your day?

It was like every Monday I would do like 20, uh, interviews back to back every 15 minutes every month.

In the past?

In the past, yeah.

What about now?

Now it's like every— well, now there's two kind of ways. So Mondays, it's hard to answer because we're, uh, we've kind of restructured over and over again. So what we were doing, I'll go to the second phase. Is we were doing every Monday, but we were blocking out 90 minutes per interview, and we would do 4 or 5 on a Monday, and typically they would last an hour. So, it wasn't—

In one day?

Yeah, one day. So, it was still a lot, but it wasn't rushed, whereas the every 15 minutes was like very rushed. So, it was like, as soon as the interview started, my mind was already like, Holy crap, we got to wrap this up so I can get to the next one, which is not a good state of mind to be in when you're interviewing someone. You know, that's pretty funny actually. So, this with that 90-minute bracket, it's like, and some of these are in person, right? So, in studio here. So, you know, they come in, we meet, hang out, and then do an hour interview. There's like 15 minutes left after that, take a picture, hang out, and then, and then the next person's in the lobby for the interview, or it's a Zoom if they're not local to Miami or traveling here, I guess.

Go ahead. How much is it better that way?

Oh, dramatically. Now, and now we're in the third phase, which is, which I believe is a lot, is even a lot better, is I've actually stopped the every Monday thing, and now what we're doing is once a month every Monday. So it's once a month now instead of every week. We're doing that. And then whenever we want to do an interview, like, it's really like a good, like, great fit, not just like saying like, hey, fill up every Monday, but it's a great— then we'll do it any day, right? So it's like if somebody comes to, like, for instance, like John Malott, like, he happened to be in town. We did an interview with him on like a Thursday night so that it was just like it happened to work. And I was like, Yes, Melissa told me about him. I looked, and then, you know, I know, you know, and I was like, yeah, this sounds like an awesome story, like a great person to have on the show and talk with. So that's more what we're doing now is it's like very being— I guess it's like very carefully choosing who we have on, and it has nothing to do with volume anymore or some sort of like cadence of like there has to be one a day or there has to be 5 a month, whatever it is. It's just, if it's the right person and the right time, then I do the interview. And that, that's what the— that's what it is now. Which, I guess there's no rhyme or, or rhythm to that, but it feels good and it— I think it's where it's supposed to be.

What makes it— actually, I got more questions. Contextually, so the audience can follow along, I, I want to know what you've been doing. Because if anyone's listening to this and follows you, if they don't understand that what you're doing works as far as growing relationships in your business, I think they— it would be a good time to understand that. That I think if anyone listening to this doesn't have a medium where they are doing what we're doing, which has been done for since humans have been around, I think, meaning convert since we have acted out ourselves in the world through language, conversation. This is like a revolution. We have the opportunity to meet anybody in the world, learn anything. It's all at our fingertips. I was just thinking like contextually, right? What would someone listening to this give a shit about this conversation? Well, if you're not doing what Tyler Wagner's doing, what I'm doing in my mediums, whether you are working for someone or own your own business, you're missing out on the greatest opportunity in the history of business.

Yeah, I agree. And I guess if people listening have more context on both of us, you know, maybe it would— trigger is not the right word, but we'll just use trigger because that's what's coming up. It would trigger them to want to listen further if they actually deeply knew. I think maybe that's egotistical. But like, it is what it is.

He goes good. Yeah, yeah, he goes good. People try to tell you he goes bad. He goes good. Yeah, my hair's getting all crazy. I gotta wear that. I gotta wear that hat.

Oh yeah, rock that. Now, now it's fine. Um, so, so wait, are you saying like, to just give a little context, like a little bit more about—

well, because I— so going to the beginning of our conversation, when I re-watched or, uh and was open to feedback from my end, because that was the first time I had been in a position of a guest on any medium in what I would consider a long time relative to how long I've been out there in the ether interviewing and interacting with human beings online. Meaning it was the first time I had been a guest. And I— listening to open feedback and then doing another one a couple weeks after— shout out to Jeremy, mutual friend of ours.

Yeah, I watched something else.

Awesome, podcast. I, I intentionally made more of an effort to slow down, ask more questions. I had a better experience. I left the conversation with a lot more energy rather than the exhaustion, feeling like I just—

yeah, yeah, no, 100%. And you know that— sorry, go ahead, go ahead.

So, so I, I have a lot of questions. Y'all want to know what— we haven't talked in a while. I want to pick your brain because that's my opportunity to actually ask questions. The audience listening, well, what's the context? Where are these two guys going? If you're listening and you're not showing who you are to the world through mediums of social, uh, podcasting, video, so on, you're missing out on a massive opportunity to deepen relationships, to learn, to grow your business. So that's kind of what I was thinking. Oh, maybe I should say that. Because I got a lot of questions and I'm attempting not to— and that's like something— ironies, I'm talking, but at some point you have to talk, uh, to approach these as when I'm a guest, more inquisitive than just— because you're not alone. Every time I've ever been a guest in any podcast, I've always talked 95% of the time. The interviewer usually can't even follow what I'm doing and, and, and doesn't, and they get swept swept in a tornado of esoteric concepts. And it's something I'm consciously working to grow on.

Well, totally.

Yeah. Well, I think like every time I've ever been a guest on a podcast, I've swept them up like Dorothy in the fucking Wizard of Oz, and all of a sudden they landed in the Emerald City. Well, I don't think they really know where they are or what they're doing, and I'm not picking on them or anyone. —or you, obviously. Yeah, no, no, I think sometimes I have to be responsible about how I carry myself in these contexts. I think it's too easy to just take over. Definitely. What do you think about that?

Yeah, yeah. So there's a couple thoughts. So one is, now that we've actually talked about Jeremy a couple times, subconsciously, or however you want to word this, it came, I think, from watching. I watched like the first 45 minutes of your interview And it was something I noticed about Jeremy, the way that his calmness, it seemed to me, like of his questions and his thoughtfulness. And I, and I didn't realize that. I think I took from some of that. And then coming into this interview, I was like, oh, wow. Like, I think— and the Jordan Peterson thing. Jordan Peterson was just more front of mind because obviously I watch him often. So, but it was kind of both of them meshed. And then coming into this interview, I was like, okay, the last interview, I feel like we had a lot of very good information, but I think my excitement, like, was so— because I'm excited, it gets so sporadic in a sense. Like me, like, I'm like a ping-pong machine. So you say something and it blows my mind, and I'm like, dude, that was sick, next question, tell me more. And then I never actually give my response, but it's actually something that thinking back to the last interview, I was unaware of in the present moment of the interview. And that's pretty cool, cool to think about in my mind of excitement, how it can just take you away in a sense, you know, like, and in a sense, that's kind of one of the reasons I think I love doing these interviews is that conversations like this is one of my favorite things to do. But if I can, the more I do, the more I become aware, and maybe it's not just about my happiness of doing them, but to provide more value to the audience, I should relax, you know, take it in, respond, and have more of a, maybe a closer to a 50/50. Maybe we'll shoot for, you know, it doesn't matter at the end, but maybe it's 70/30, whatever. But it depends on the context.

Yeah, because I interview people, they talk 99.9% of the time, but my intention is to uncover. I do not think, uh, that that's your intention of this media. Your intention is to have a voice.

Yeah, well, yeah, it's actually— it's very— the best way for me to put it, well, just because it already exists, is like the way— and we'll just use this as an example— the way I see us is like you being a recurring guest, like us for the show's purpose, you being a recurring guest, and like me and you evolve, I feel, at such a rapid, like, pace. Like, especially with all the books you read, and I think with all the people that I connect with, that together is like rapidly evolving our minds. And like, if it's once a month, once every 2 months, whatever it happens to be, I think a conversation at this length is very valid, we'll use, because in a month, like, I know so much more than I knew a month ago. So there's a— there's an end. You can't even cover everything we already know within this time frame to begin with.

So when you watched Jeremy's episode, did you then alter how you interacted on other episodes consciously? Um, yeah. Um, like, just— yes, for clarification, I'm telling you that I work through feedback of how I interacted from people that I gained feedback from, meaning Jenna.

Oh yeah, she's good at that.

And so I made a conscious and then intention when I went on Jeremy's to include him in a conversation that I normally have with myself, although the person would be there too. Yeah, meaning if I'm in the guest position, there's a different story. So I made a conscious effort to do that, and you witnessed that. Like, you witnessed a completely, uh, that, that was a completely different experience. I drew from what I reflected on our interaction, which Our interaction was emblematic or symbol— yeah, symbolic rather, of every interaction. And I normally have when I'm a guest on a meeting. Now I'm not often a guest because I don't go on shows purposely. Get asked and the answer is no, because I have a platform. I'd rather have— I'd rather be the host to be the guest. And we can— I would like to get into that later. But So you and Jeremy are two human beings that I consider friends, and so I would like to talk to you. Yeah. And I'll be a guest. And that actually, I would like to practice being a guest because it's easy for me not to. The power of this medium, for anyone listening, like a medium where you develop what could be called a funnel. Where you have people talk, that you talk to through this video, a show, is complete leverage over your life and your business. You're the sun, and the architecture of this we take for granted is the solar system. So everybody, it's like people are aliens are flying through my solar system, picking them up with my gravitational pull. I'm saying with my show. So I'll be in your, I'll be in your solar system right now. Like, we're floating around your son right now and you're building an audience. And like, you're essentially God incarnate in this culture. You're all-seeing, all-knowing, all-being. And I'm just a slave to your— I'm the product. I'm essentially the product of your culture, right? You're sucking me dry of information. That's essentially when you have guests.

Yeah, you know, it's— I made a con—

I have made a conscious intention I was reflecting. When I go on these shows, it's not fulfilling. I don't feel heard. Well, how do I feel? How can I feel heard? Oh, I could start listening. So I consciously am asking questions because I want to have a relationship, not a cult following.

So, so, and And does that tie in with what you're saying? In most cases, you're saying, or in all cases, you'd rather be the host?

I'd say if I'm not— if I am unable to be all, I'm avoiding conflict at some level that would help me grow. That's what I'm saying. Got it, got it.

But you don't have to be—

oh, well, as far— in what context are you asking? Business, personal, both?

I guess it's both, meaning like with your time, if you had to choose, like interviewing people on your Culture Matters podcast or going on others, it seems—

I would interview Joe Rogan before I would go on his show. Yeah, I remember. I think podcasting culture doesn't understand business culture leverage. And if you want to build a personality brand, people say you want to get as many shows as possible. I'd say I'd rather actually have people come on my show and how I approach the conversation, there'll be unquantifiable value of my development psychologically, uh, from a knowledge standpoint, like you just talked about earlier. And also, you're pointing a laser beam at yours, and look how that's turned out for Joe. He's able to actually sell consciousness for $10 million a year over a 10-year contract. That's what he sold. He sold consciousness. You're downloading— this is gonna last. We're gonna die.

Hopefully later, hopefully soon, this will be here.

This will be here. People can watch this. Um, so I, from a business standpoint, I'd rather be the host and have people on. Every entrepreneur that doesn't have a medium like this where they can interview potential client partners is missing out on a Gutenberg Revolution type opportunity business. If you don't know the Gutenberg Revolution, anybody listening, go Google that. Um, but I, I'm telling you that I'm making a conscious effort to interact more, uh, and I don't— something like a hybrid rather than just being the guest. Because hey dude, no shame on you if it's an interview and you talk 20% of the time or less. Now I would say the question is, are you asking questions? Yeah, but, but that's a different conversation. But no shame on you. Like, on the Culture Matters podcast, I don't— if the definition is interview and that's what they're coming in for, I'm not breaking down my theory of epistemology. I'm bringing out their genius. But on other episodes, like we're doing a new series called the Culture Tube, it's going to be more of like an open dialogue debate kind of format. We did one of those together on Facebook last year. And then I have a monologue series that we just released that the first episode comes out in 2 weeks where I just talk to myself for 2 hours. So to answer your question, great question. Let me— yeah, I'm attempting— I, I have to be able to do all of them, or I'm, I'm, I'm, I've just created another successful medium for me to hide, to be a cult puppet master, which is easy when you have a lot of the answers that people would look to, to ascertain. It's essentially the psyche of an entrepreneur is the functioning totalitarian, the mentally ill who's coped with monetary development. Basically, entrepreneurs are fucking crazy people who are able to function in society through developing services, products, and so on for other human beings. And I'm attempting to use my business to develop as a being and align all of them. So, going on shows to be a guest where I'm also working constantly to learn about my counterpart is important for me.

Got it. Yeah, and I think it's ever-evolving, right? So, for me, it started out as like a fun project to interview that many people and it was really about me learning from them. Like, the quick 15 minutes I would learn, like, about. And then business started to pick up from it, and then it turned and pointed more in that direction. And then business started to really pick up in a different way, actually way quicker than the podcast, which might be useful to get into on this at some point. We have plenty of time. So, yeah, what do you mean? But I'm actually creating something around it, but As you know, most of our business comes from partnering with publishers, ghostwriters, editors, people that work with authors. They refer to us to do the marketing. Now, I could like basically use the podcast, invite them on and interview them, and then basically be like, hey, there might be ways for us to refer people to each other. But actually what we found is like through LinkedIn and just contacting them through websites, just kind of getting straight to the point and just saying like, we literally use this like potential collaboration. We noticed we both work with authors, there might be ways we can collaborate. If you're down for a short intro call, here's our link. And then, we have a sales team that doesn't actually do sales really but more they do collaboration efforts that lead to sales. And then, the podcast actually became pivoted and Joe Rogan's just the best way because I feel it's directly like it. So, that's why it's the easiest kind of way to compare it. Is I believe, like, the deal that Joe Rogan got with Spotify, I mean, of course, I would love to get that deal. Like, I mean, that would be sick. But from what I can tell, I'm not doing the interviews to get that deal. What I'm doing is I enjoy the long-form interviews, and I believe that that will be a side benefit if I continue to do them and enjoy them for 10 years or so to come. That like I have a chance to build something as Joe Rogan has built in, in that way. That— but that's not— you see, like, I'm reaching out for the collaboration calls for business. That's to make money. But without—

whether you're aware of it or not, this would increase the likelihood that those human beings would say yes. Call it what you, what you may.

I, I agree.

And the thing is, a lot of people aren't aware of that. And Joe Joe isn't even monetizing his platform properly. He's just benefiting off— where's his event? Where's the experience?

Like, I don't— well, I guess he just has the sponsors with, with Spotify, because if you look at stuff, there's no event, there's no books, there's no anything.

He could build a whole religion from that podcast. True. He could call it Joeism.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, because he's— that's the whole—

you have an audience of people that are listening and saying yes or no or tell me more. Like, if you had your ideal human being on the show that you'd work with and you qualified them through asking questions and pointing out what you don't agree with, then you'd find out very quickly who the best who the best people are to work with. Now, that's not what you're doing, you're saying. You're doing it because it's fun. You're doing it because you enjoy it. But whether you or anybody's aware of it or not, when people that you send a message to, hey, this is what we do, we'd like to work with you. Ty, you're like one of the best in your industry. You've built this crazy track record of success. Anybody listening to this right now, if they haven't already looked you up, they'll find so much. Edification. All that increases the convertibility of what your products or services are. 100%. What I'm saying is, it's not an either-or. Both. It can be both. However, they feed off of each other.

100% agree. And I think what I found is that for the— because I desire on the pot— like, if I, um, trying to word this right, we'll see how this goes. So, if I bring on a publisher on the podcast we could discuss like random things, but it would probably go down a direction of talking about book publishing, book marketing, and things of that nature, which I— with this type of podcast, I desire to talk about some different things due to my life being fully invoked, or not invoked, or like just fully in, in the publishing book marketing world all the time. So, maybe like this podcast is maybe actually kind of a, it's a different, maybe it's a release, it's something to just like learn, enjoy, talk, be, and just, it's more, I look at like, who's interesting? I don't look like, I don't look at the podcast anymore as to like, who can I interview? Like, for John Malott was a prime example of that. Like, I didn't actually know much about him before. I think I, I don't know if I asked you, I can't remember, but I didn't know much about him. I just knew like a little bit of his story of when he was younger, and I was like, dude, that's interesting. Like, I wanna— like, how did this guy go from this to where he is now? Like, that is a wild story. So, to me, that's the podcast. And I guess it's just, you know, it's my choice, right? Whereas the collaboration calls, which to touch on, like, that can work for any business, and that's one of the things we're starting to create now. Is a separate system for people to grow their business through collaborative partnerships because I believe it is missed by everybody. I don't believe anybody's ever thought about it in the way that we have because, well, I just never seen anybody scale it to that level. So, either way, what do you say?

What are you talking about?

Meaning like, we, so we have a full sales team We'll call them a sales team, right? But they're collab— like, director of strategic partners.

By the way, the word sales is not offensive to me. I'd like to clarify that for everybody. No, no, I don't think it is. Go and look on Google, type in conversation, you know, let's just do it. Can we take a sidebar? We got a couple hours.

No, no, I don't think it's offensive though, just so you know.

Your subconscious keeps yelling at me.

No, I just want it to be clear to people listening that, that it's a sales team that Okay, so here we go.

Builds partners. Conversation. You ready? Yeah, yeah. A noun. A talk, especially an informal one, between two or more people in which news and ideas are exchanged. Discussion. Talk. Chat. Sorry, gossip. Let's look at the etymology. Latin. Latin. Conversio. Old French. Converse. Conversation, living among, familiarity, intimacy. What does conversation mean? Interactive communication between two more people, analysis, the branch of sociology. Where was it? What I was looking for— the, uh, the etymology of conversation is convert. I mean, if we go back to the— actually, the beginning of the def— let's look at the beginning. This is important. A talk, especially an informal one between two or more people in which news and ideas are exchanged. So I think, what is a business? A business is a vision to a solution of a problem first. A vision to a solution or problem. You know things other people don't know in the context of what it is that you solve, correct? And so they exchange money for that. So you have an idea. So a conversation is a talk, especially this thing an informal one. Now this is where I think there's a new— there's an opportunity that's right before all of our eyes. We may not be fully aware of it. How formal is business in a world where we're all completely connected? I can see who, whose politics are what on their Facebook and LinkedIn and their Twitter. And people are getting cancel cultured. Cancel cultured. Yeah. For posting X on social media, they're getting fired from their jobs. Like there's a gray space right now. Do you think we're going backwards where business was totally separate from real life? No way. I would love to be convinced that way. So if everybody agrees, if you agree and everyone listening agrees, if you don't agree, you should send in your fucking mail pigeon and we'll go over that next one. If we agree that we're not going the old way where it was all siloed, but we're becoming more and more connected, Well, then a talk, especially an informal one between two or more people in which news and ideas are exchanged. I know, I can't see it here, but I know the etymology. If you go to the Old English, Aristotle's Rhetoric, which is one of the first sales books, the root of conversation— this is what I've been trying to say for 5 minutes— is convert. If we have a conversation like right now I'm attempting to convince you of something. I'm aware of that. You should be aware of that. Everyone listening, be aware of that. Whether I'm trying to convince you of something— I'm not— when we have a conversation, we're going to bring all of our beliefs to the table. Everything we've ever experienced, everything we've ever done, everything that's ever worked for us. And we're going to have conflict. We're going to disagree about things, for the better or for the worse. That could be argued because that's subjective too. So my point is, just clarify, you've created a sales process that works based on the feedback you get. And I think in our personal development— I'm not saying you said this, but in our personal development culture, sales is a dirty word because people are dirty. You don't have to be dirty. The etymology, the root meaning of conversation is convert. We're having a conversation and Uh, we're converting ideas, we're reshaping ourselves. Exactly what we talked about earlier, why this is so great. You can learn and grow your business at the same time. So that happens no matter what. Is that— yeah. So how do you go about conversing with other people? Yeah, that's relevant.

So, so I guess if I were to attempt to— the listeners, if I were to attempt to convert you to think in a new way about how to grow your business, this is what I would say, right? Is that no matter what business you're in, there— because of LinkedIn, Google, like just the internet in general, your ability to connect with people is, is that is limitless. Like, and if you build a team, a sales team, you know, you can multiply that connective, connectiveness, right? So like for me, I was doing like 100 calls a week and then I got to a point, and the 20 podcasts. So you get to a point, maybe that's, let's just say 100 in total. So it's like 20 calls Tuesday to Friday and then 20 podcasts Monday, 100 total interactions, business related. So then what I did is I brought on more people to multiply what was working And the, an example that I use is this, um, because I just believe it's an example that everybody would get. So say if you own like a landscaping business, I don't know if I've ever told you this, it to me it's just so simplified though, it's just people don't think about it like this. If I owned a landscaping business and I wanted it to drastically grow very, very fast, I would use LinkedIn and get Sales Navigator, type in real estate agent And there's like, I don't even know, like 10 million or more real estate agents on LinkedIn, maybe 100 million plus. There's a ton of them, but narrow it down to your couple zip codes, connect with them, build a partnership where they can refer their clients to your service, give them a commission, and just basically build a partnership with every single realtor within 5, within hours, like an hour an hour away from where you live, like however far you want to landscape, and you would beat out the entire competition within 2 months, like, or whatever the time, however many calls you and your team can take to beat it. And it's not about beating it really, it's just about like— I understand. Like you would—

Is part of what you're saying it's more efficient? To build a relationship with a realtor that has access to 50 houses rather than not on 50 houses. Is that the— Yeah, it's, it's, it's what you're proposing, and here's more logical and efficient, especially in our connected society with social media, and it's forever, people that—

So, it's, it's one, okay, so, so, let's just say there's a couple different scenarios. One scenario is, it's one conversation, you really connect, and that person just keeps referring people to every single house that they sell, That's the part of the pamphlet, right? So, it's like, congratulations, you're in your new house. By the way, just want to let you know, John over here, best landscaper in town. Here's his card. Every single one. Now, or maybe you got to follow up with the realtor a couple of times, like build the relationship deeper before that occurs. That, you know, it doesn't always happen off one 15-minute call, but it's way better than like any advertising I've ever heard of. And it's not even ad— I mean, it's advertising, but, but it's—

you're building a referral network. Yeah, so you're doing it through social though?

Yeah, no, but what, what I'm getting— so, so it's just like you said, it's just a referral network. Like, what, what— but the thing is, every— because everybody I talk to, the way that they think about this is, if you ask almost anybody— and I, I know I'm kind of putting everybody in a box, but it's just from my experience— is that they'll be like, yeah, I have a couple referral partners. Like, that's typically— they're like, I got a couple for this. What I'm getting at is like, what if you had a million referral partners? And that's possible with how connected we are. Very possible. That's not crazy at all. So I'm just saying, because then, you know, once you hit all those zip codes, you can expand your business, and then you could do statewide And then you could keep going. And every single partnership you do, you could ask them if they have 3 friends that are real estate agents, because they probably do. So, I'm just saying, it's all, I just think nobody's ever really thought of it in a way of like, let me try to build 1,000 partners or 1 million partnerships. Because it's almost not, you know what I mean? Like, have you, have you thought about like that in that way? Like, and not even just a million, like actually scaling a business by pure, like having a thousand.

What's in it for them?

Well, they get a percentage and they don't, and, and well, there's different types, right? So they get it, well, they get a percentage if it's a direct referral. Yeah. One of the things we do is sometimes people white label us. We actually have another business called White Label Books where we build somebody an actual publishing company and they white label all of our services. We're like their backend. So like, the way I see it is actually a realtor could also own a landscaping business as a white label, right? If they wanted it to be their brand. Okay, cool. Well, John's like, that's fine. Just, we'll sign an agreement, you use us to deliver, but it's under your brand so that you can keep growing. That doesn't matter to me. I'm, you know, this is still coming back to me. I don't know. I just think I just think people do this all the time.

However, I think it's more of you accepting how great you are, because you're pretty great. And I mean that, and not just say that to, to kiss you over the phone here, but you've done two things very well. This is the, this is the business model, which is very smart, but, but it can't work without Tyler because of your personality. You connect with people. You connect with people that already are connected to people. That is your personality in a box. That's where the business flows from. Also, from a branding standpoint, you've created through all of your podcasting conversations over the long term edification, not just a track record of successful testimonials. But if someone looks you up online, they're going to say, 'Author's name,' and Tyler Wagner, 'Whoa, he's with everybody.' He's connected to everybody. I trust him. If you didn't have that and you were doing what you're doing, the conversion would be lower on the relationships. Agreed. Okay, a tremendous amount of conjecture. So, but I'm saying that what you're talking about is a— is adapt— is a develop— here's an example. Like, the Lightspeed software company has a software. Of course, that's how they grew, because humans that want to teach use the software to share their knowledge, and they can white label it and own it completely theirs. That technology— they're in business together. They're— they have a partnership together, no matter what level of awareness that they have about their partnership.

Yeah, no, I agree.

Great business models operate in the way that you're talking about. And you're— you're— if you didn't have that you know, bubbly, kind, loving personality that you have, and you didn't have all that track record to put yourself out there, and you were just cold marketing human beings to be referral partners, it wouldn't work. You're— I think that your revenue, your incoming revenue, would run out faster than your operating expenses. But you did it right. You, you did— you put in the work. Like, that's another thing I want to say, like, about you. Is, man, fuck, like us, like our— we're young, we're not even 30. Look what we've done, dude. As I was thinking about this the other day, like, my mom is so proud of me. It's fucking cool. Yeah, that is cool. We talk on the phone and she's like telling, you know, my uncles and, uh, you know, talking to Jenna, uh, you know, where we come from. That's called building a business from nothing. With an idea, like you were networking at those events, and then what did you do? You made 100 connections, you said earlier, every week, and 20 you were doing— they might have been 15 minutes, but that was the beginning of your meta brand. Yeah, like they were short, but people listen. And that was also— how many years ago was that?

Um, the podcast now is 2 and a half years old, I think. I might—

from the first time you did the first 15. I thought— no, we've known each other longer.

I know, I'm so bad at that. 3 and a half.

You don't even know what day it is.

It's Friday, right? It's Friday.

How do I know? We met 3 years, 4 years ago.

Okay, I was not doing the podcast when we first met, was I? I don't believe so.

That's all that I'm thinking.

You wanna know something? So, remember, because me and you were talking recently and I sent you that message about like writing my next book about— so, that's actually right now what's happening is one of the reasons I want to do it because my memory is foggy and I would— and I, when you— well, let's just, we'll just say it doesn't matter what everybody else's. It's my memory is foggy from a timeline perspective. So if I were to write that book, whether it goes in that direction or not, but just actually sitting down and like taking a week, we'll just say a week, not to write the book, but just a week to like, it would take me personally way longer than that, me personally, but to do it, to just map out my life, like what I can timeline and fully remember.

I would be curious I think part of that is because you've worked— and correct me if I'm wrong— every— and this is people that want to be entrepreneurs, this is what it takes. You worked every day, basically, or at least you're one of the most regimented people I've ever met. When you work, like, the days that you work, whether it's 5 days or 7 days or 6 days you're regimented as heck. You wake up at a certain time, you work at a certain time, and then— and you've done that for how many years? 7 years at least? 8 years every day?

Yeah, like that. I'd say like maybe like 7 years, but I started my entrepreneurial time when I was like 20 is when I dropped out of school. And I think that was kind of like, you know, some days were on, some days were off. Yeah, before the momentum really—

hey, you was how old? 7 years?

Um, yeah, let's, let's say around— I mean, I've been in the book business for like 9 years. Let's, you know, in 9 years total. So it started when I was 20. AU is 2— yeah, 7 years. It's around 7.

To do something that consistently for 7 years and you're, you're crushing it. Yeah.

Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, yeah, people say, oh, the ego.

Ego is not your amigo. Ego is your best fucking friend. You actually don't exist without an ego. Ego. 100%. I am responsible that I have the ability to say things that I'm gonna regret, to do things that I'm gonna regret, and I could choose what to do. And I also know things that are valuable to others, and based on how I interact with them, I'm going to help them or not help them. So I am an ever-evolving ego.

100%. I think it's— it's— you look kicked ass. Well, and I think it's also two things on that is, one, as you know, I'm an Alan Watts fan, so I went through a pretty, a multi-year phase of attempting to remove the ego, right? And that's not actually from Alan Watts, that's a whole nother thing. But, and then, it's actually fairly recent that, like you said, I've accepted what I am very good at because I've kind of always not put myself down, I don't think is the right word, but because I believe what I'm doing is easy in the sense of how to do it. Now, the doing of it, like actually doing it and doing 20 interviews in a day, like the time it takes, the reg, like you said, and waking up every morning running, that's— but the how, in a sense, how, like what do you do? Well, well, you, you help a few people do something for free. They give you testimonials, you have some testimonials. And then you reach out to partners, and then you build partnerships, and then the business grows. And to keep your mind right, you run every morning, you know, and that's what you do.

You're just— because you're smart, you're oversimplifying your smarts. Like, you're winning by any stretch of the imagination in our society as a responsible business owner that provides products and services to human beings. Let's think about like all the people that want to have a ball. What does it even represent for them? Their voice. The book is the physical representation of everything that they believe and they've come to know, and that they do know. It's revealed in the writing. Like, and for anyone listening to this, read as much as you can. Listen to as many audiobooks as you can. Physically read as much as you can. The reason is it helps you understand yourself through those conflicts that arise. Like, oh, I don't understand this. What could that mean? What does that— but so Tyler, you are responsible for giving people that— everyone that ever reads their book. I mean, dude, we probably couldn't even quantify. I can't— that goes beyond my abilities easily mathematically to try to quantify how many people your effort of, oh, I get up every day at the same time, really fucking early. I'm not doing that. Oh dude, I get— oh, I just get up really early, I do what I got— what I say I'm going to do every day, be that work my ass off and I have 100 conversations, or like, that's a tremendous amount of coverage with human beings that influence others, and I help them have an even bigger of a voice. Mm-hmm. Now, it's that second— that's a lot of responsibility.

Okay, so here's the thing again with that though, that second one, what I've realized that because, you know, I've connected with a lot of people, what I've kind of been— what I've been kind of attempting to do recently is, due to the volume of people, you just literally do not have enough time to stay that deeply connected with that many people. It is impossible, at least unless you know.

So, um, I think it'll be possible in, in— it could be, you know, 3, 4 decades. But it is not possible now.

So, so that's kind of one of my— for, for the, for the circle that I'm trying to create that I, that I can have deep and meaningful relationship with, that, you know, and it's me choosing to create the time for that. That's kind of like one of the first criteria. And it's been surprising to me since a younger age growing up, even for very successful people, is just doing what you say you're gonna do. Like, there's a lot of people that don't— like, I'm one of those, maybe it's, I don't know what the word is, but like, I don't let things slip through the cracks. Like, nothing slips through the cracks.

And I don't mean by that—

what I mean is like, maybe it's like a compulsion, like I— so, I've allowed, as Authors Unite's grown, I've stepped back and I've hired people and like, But I still am like overlooking everything, right? So just to make sure. But either way, just a simplified thing like a phone call. Like if I'm gonna be late, I will notify, like, and I can't do anything about it, then I will notify you. Or it's just like I never, I never just like miss, you know, or just like—

Was there a time where you did? No. Ever?

I know, no, I don't think so. And to me, but it's because I think part of it is because it's like I will not allow myself to let another person down. I want to say if there's any way that I can't, and I think there's a lot of ways that are very simple that you don't let people down, and that's just like doing what you say you're gonna do. Who's let you down? Um, I can't think of a name. I, I'm just going from, uh, maybe I should sit down and actually like kind of map through one. Yeah, yeah. And it's not— I want to be clear, I— if you miss a call for me, actually at this point, if you, if you miss a call for me, I'm pretty disappointed just because I respect my time so much. Before, um, like a few years ago, I would have been like, hey, it's cool, you know, shit happens. But now I'm starting to— like, my time is, is moot. Like, I feel life's moving very fast.

And time is very important. You to make the— was it a specific experience that you could remember? No, no. Or a compounding effect? Compounding.

Because of all the phone calls and podcasts that— right. So, let's— let me actually put this in perspective, right? So, when I did the 20 podcasts in one day, every single week, there would be like 3 or 4 that would cancel the more— that morning. Like, cancel the podcast? Yeah, like, that's like 20%. And I'm like, dude, you don't cancel a podcast the fucking morning of. What the fuck are you like? And again, I'm not saying because, like, because it's with me. I'm just saying because in general it's not something I would do, right? Like, and now there's, there's different circuits. Like, I feel like me and you are very, like, we're, we're, we're closer. Like, we're very good friends, I, I would say, from my end. So, like Because of that, yes. If for some reason, let's just say I wasn't feeling too well and I texted you, but still, no, now that I'm speaking it out loud, because you blocked out your time for— like, I would like call you and have a conversation about that. I would be like, hey dude, what are your thoughts? Like, I can do the interview, but I'm not feeling too well.

So like, what sort of an impact has that had on your business, if it has had one?

What, uh, which part?

Like You keeping your word. Oh, a dramatic—

I think it's everything. I think that's also why the partners, right? Because as we were talking, I was thinking there are definitely some variables. Like, it's not just like call partners and like any— like, my personality has definitely helped, right? My results for my clients has definitely helped, like when people search me. But my partners know they can count on me because I always do what I say I'm gonna do. So, they are comfortable. Like, some of our clients now, like, it's insane. Like, we work with like billionaires, like, and somebody feels comfortable referring a billionaire to me. Now, your, how much money you make is not direct, you know, I'm not saying that, but what I'm saying is, that's pretty well, I think that's pretty cool. Like, as a 29-year-old, a big publisher feels comfortable referring.

You may not be saying, but I'm gonna say that. Okay. Someone makes more money They've proven to the society of capitalism that they are more valuable. I'm saying this, not you. I would like— I think this is an interesting opinion, that someone that has developed more wealth, they are demonstrating that in a society that gives— and not all societies are like this, everybody listening, not all societies give you and me, people that come from not much, the ability or the billionaire that you want. Anybody listening to this, the ability to create wealth, how do you do it? Tyler's explaining how you're saying, well, you keep your word, and that has a direct impact on how much people refer you. So I would— I'd be willing to go at that and say someone that has developed a billion dollars is more valuable in how they interact with other people. Like, there's evidence to support that. I could be wrong, but they are more— I think straying from even talking in those terms is a symptom of a culture that is afraid of itself. They're afraid of itself. Yeah, like, people are not equal. That's— I would like to say that we're not equal. We're equal In this way, I would say equal under God in the sense of if I'm better than you at X and I name call you and shame you in front of everyone, that reveals that I don't think we're equal under God. At least even if someone's listening that doesn't believe in God, please understand if I'm going to say this in a metaphorical sense, in the sense that I'm not a god. Just because I'm a faster runner than Bob, if I use my material, empirical value that's greater than Bob relative to the running against Bob's, what we could call, soul, or, um, we can't touch it, we can't see it. Like, the life of Bob, the fact that if Bob was dead by my hands or another's, Bob would never exist again. Yeah, in that sense, we're equal. Like, because that— equal under God. Because if I, if I act as though we're not equal, I'll— I, or human beings, are more likely to just start exterminating the Bobs, exterminating those that are perceived as not as good. Not as worthy. We've seen this throughout history and every extermination that's occurred, from the Holocaust to, um, in Soviet Union, which I want to talk about later, and in all these different places, all these different exterminations that have occurred of people. And now, I, you know, it's almost— there's a softening of our individual understanding in our culture that— and the softening relates to that we're, uh, no one's better than anyone else. Well, in what context? We're better in different contexts, like I might be faster than you and you smarter than me in math and me in writing. But your capacity to be in the world, I'm not better than you because then that would mean that I could— that would reveal a lot of me. So just to go back to the billionaire thing, I think, you know, Dude, you are actually, if not on a conscious level, subconsciously— and it would make sense to our culture— making a claim like, we work with billionaires, successful people. And we all— everyone listening, they could disagree, they could develop their points out there— that doesn't mean you're, you're more successful. But in a capitalistic, or rather a free market economy, where we all have the liberty to be able to develop success, wealth, prosper. We have that luxury, that privilege to have that freedom to do so, the equality of opportunity. Um, that would be a variable that points in the direction of Tyler is successful. Why? Because Tyler is sharing that he's done deliverables for people that are very successful. How do we define very successful? In a material sense, a billionaire is very successful within the context of a free market society. I think it's that— it's an important enough point not to just overlook and me to pontificate on for 5 minutes. They're like, fuck yeah, that is what you're saying. You're just not caught, you know, you're not, you're not throwing it over, but you are. It's the same reason why if people— if I share who we work with, people that don't know me but know them, they're gonna say, wow, this dude's pretty smart, versus not knowing anything. Now there's also diminishing returns of that because I actually go the other route where I don't share anything I never lead with who I work with or anything. This is like something me and Jeremy talked about at the end of his— of our podcast together, and hopefully outspoken, because he asked me about how we work with— both of us work with very behind the scenes and with people that do, you know, that have celebrity in their cultures, celebrity in their industries. And how he asked me how, how I— what are some of my advice on how to do that? And the number one advice is Don't brag. But I always focus on what I know and the substance when I'm on these types of shows, or if I'm in a conversation live, I focus on— and it's not about, you know, the bragging, it's contextual— but I thought I have— I choose to focus on what I know and what my cases are and what my thoughts are and my opinions and theories and so on, rather than go the route of this is who I am, this is who I work with, this is what we do, you should trust me because look at who I work with. Not saying that that is something to completely stray from, but their substance matters to me, and I think substance should matter in our culture. So when you say, you know, we work with billionaires, uh, I would like to, you know, make that claim that, hey, you know, that means something. Likely it likely meant, and it is to be brushed under the rug, and I don't, I don't I don't like the idea that we, in our culture, people, are quick to shy away from that. Other people are better than people that are different things.

Totally. So wait, let me ask you this. We're not people. Like, you— Materially. And I want— well, yeah, you know, I'm not saying this in any bad way. Like, you guys Is your— is— do you have like a— you don't have a website with like testimonials? No. Great. Okay, good. No, no, that's what— so I also don't even—

I also don't even— I don't talk to people. Okay. Completely unorthodox.

Well, no, it's so cool because conversations—

I don't do anything.

I feel like we've both like— I mean, in some senses there's similarities of how we've both built our companies. There's some similarities, but there's also differences, right? Well, magic. Um, but what I'm saying is, what, what is very different business than—

we have very different businesses, but, but the benefit—

you said there's a benefit because like how I, how I started Authors Unite, right, was like helping some people or in the book business is, is through testimonials. I helped a few friends for free and then I leveraged those testimonials to bring on more clients. And then, as our clientele expanded and we were featured in big publications, I definitely use the, like, if you go to our website, you know, there's a lot of testimonials and there's a lot of like where we've been. And I, you know, that's definitely helped us, our business. So, you said there's a benefit.

Absolutely, it would. Yes.

But what's the benefit to not? And I'm actually just asking because I'm curious. Like, say if we didn't have a website and we didn't do any of that, what's the benefit in your mind? Like, why don't you do it?

Say that naturally there would be no— there'd be no reason not to do any of that. However, one could frame oneself as extremely exclusive having not had one. Okay. Um, okay, that's— I mean, which actually is literally what we are. However, I'm— that's not something I need to talk about. Because that's not even our model. I mean, just for context, I know we're behind the scenes with brands and companies and humans. Uh, actually, I just started watching Game of Thrones. I'll use this as a— I love— like, I, I watched the last 8 episodes, and then I started with the last 8 episodes. You ever see Game of Thrones?

I have. I don't really— I've seen the episodes a couple times, like, here and there.

So I remember the story. Actually, not the midget. Okay, do you understand the Hand? No, he's the hand to the king. Okay, that's his role. Got it. That's my role in, in, in a handful of industries.

Gotcha, I see.

So like, anyone that's a Game of Thrones fan, you know that whenever there's a new— so there's a couple different hands in the beginning of the show, the first season. Uh, I just started watching the first season. Robert Baratheon is a— he's like heavy, the heavy king. Did you see the first season?

I don't— I, I've seen it.

You don't remember at all any of it? Well, no, no, seen it randomly. So he— and he, he dies by episode 6 or something, like from a boar— 7— from a boar stabbing him or whatever. Well, he has a Hand, Ned Stark, and Ned Stark's the father of, uh, Jon Snow, who's like the main protagonist in the show, who's the bastard child of Ned that you find out later Jon Snow the whole time. His bloodline was a Targaryen, and Targaryen is the bloodline of the dragons. And the Game of Thrones is this whole story around this Mad King who for thousands of years, his family, you know, reigned over the Seven Kingdoms, and they had dragon blood, uh, dragon blood in their genes and so on, so they can't get burned by fire, and they were in charge, man. But there's, there's a role— I'm like so into this now. It's like old news. It's, it's totally old news, but Anyway, the Hand is a role as an advisor, essentially, to the king. So, you know, there's only so many— now, in that show, the Hand only works with the king of the Seven Kingdoms. So we're not just, you know, I, one king, it's many kings. Actually, I I'm going to use that metaphor to help them. When the CEO acts like a king in 2021, that's actually very detrimental to a culture because, well, like you said earlier, in this world where everything is transparent and clear, authoritarian rule won't last long in a culture. That's cult-like interaction from leaders to followers, and it decays trust over time, which actually is great. You could look at the Game of Thrones show and just see how it's come— everyone's, everyone, every one of the households, the Lannisters, the, uh, uh, the, the Targaryens, the, uh, the Starks, they're all loyal to their families and disloyal to each other. And so there's a bunch of cults, the Seven Kingdoms, and they're all trying to kill each other and take over the throne. Because in a— that would be like a monarchy, you know, under their god. Whoever's running it rules it. Businesses naturally operate like that. They operate with, you know, the all— the, you know, the all-seeing, all-powerful being, which is the owner who started it with from nothing, whose blessing is that they exist because they created the company, and that their curse is that they are actually created the company. And how do you trust human beings that are autonomous beings that you can't control to do things? How? Because they are an extension of your word, like you talked about earlier. You could have your word with everything, and you're expecting that they do what they say they're going to do. They don't do it. Well, that creates a lot of conflict. I help behind the scenes with the kings and the queens because there's women— men and women we work with. In those positions with these big questions and how to act that out. So, um, because, because the— you can't actually be a king or a queen or a monarch, a totalitarian, by my theory, uh, building a company in 2021 especially. But nothing you ever really should have. Um, so for anyone that watches Game of Thrones, the Hand, they understand that Hand concept. That's that person that is the number one advisor to the king. That's, that's, that's me. And so my number one responsibility is to be educated and aware and curious and interact with the kings and the queens to help them lead their kingdoms, grow the kingdoms. Um, now does that mean people should, should or shouldn't— what are the value of having a website or having testimonials? The value of all of that is, is valuable. And actually, if I was building my business model in the, you know, just— and this is a privilege— 20, 10 years ago, even the, the, the smartest, the, the fat— the only way to build it at that time, really, uh, well, one of the most valuable would be to throw an event and have kings and queens on the, on the stage and have those kings and queens develop, essentially develop a— that's why Joe, for example, is missing out on a great opportunity. Opportunity by not creating the experience where he has all his kings and queens, his influencers, on the stage giving information to the audience and potentially, like your train of thought, creating brokerage— brokering referral opportunities with them. That's how Joe could maximize his following like a great deal, uh, by creating his experience. So that would have been the way that I would have done my model before if there wasn't, uh, uh, if I didn't have access to like, like social— if social media didn't exist. Because I knew that if I just get a camera and go to kingdoms— there's like 159 kingdoms I went to where I brought a camera crew, went there and interviewed the king— that I'd have the leverage. I'd be able to do what I do best, which is coach them live while the video camera's on, which is the proof later. And build a relationship with them and then choose who I wanted to work with. And now we're capturing all that content on video, and now we can put it out to the world. And that— because no one would even begin to know anything about me, because human beings are going to firstly say, who, who's that person? Oh, that person is really successful. Well, who's that person? I don't know anything about them, but why would that person hang out with that person? That person wasn't somebody. So that— and that— but just get back to, to my point earlier, is the number one— that you can completely create enough frames to where you're the most— you have a lot of what would be called success opportunity and not actually know anything, like not know a lot and also not be ethical, not keep your word, for example. That would like fall in line with what I would say is virtue. Uh, and, and, and, and that's the responsibility of the customers as well to ask questions, to pay close attention, to question authority, and, and to know, you know, is this a company that I'm getting involved in that actually will do what they say they're going to do? Uh, my, uh, my number one focus is to know things that I— that would be valuable to others that have privilege that they've created, that they may— likely they never invested the time to know the things that I'd know, investing the time in to know the things that I know. Very likely. But that becomes a product. Yep. Depending on how that's positioned and framed. Um, I, I think— I believe in, uh, we will have a website, and we will have a lot of those, uh, mediums of exchange for the— Marx would say the proletariat. So they could— rather than Marx, you know, I don't think the system is against it. I think they could actually come up like Adam Smith and like myself, didn't come from anything, build their life up and build success, meaning we'll have products and services that someone could invest in and learn from. Like, JBP has the authors, uh, the authors— yeah, the self-authoring program. Like, that's what, $50 or something like that for Bob or Mary? Um, I'd recommend everyone getting that. Like, we don't have anything of that nature, but someday we will. Totally. And it would be, it would be, it would be, it would be a shame to, to not. I think that's kind of where I'm at in things. But the, you know, the main opportunity for everybody is to know that you actually have a voice in this world like you never had. And you could, if you work like Tyler, where you say— I'll use you as an example. We are very different people, which is a good basis for friendship, uh, you know. But you have the work ethic like Tyler, where you say you're going to do something, you get up and you get— and you do it. And you do that for 7 years, you're gonna be rich not having help, like big help, right? You didn't have an investor. No, you didn't have a business partner. You, you've learned from so many people, and you have all that on your back. That's the American dream. Unfortunately, because of all your white privilege, you basically did it for nothing.

Why don't go there? Oh dude, I was so close.

You're white, you obviously had— it was so easy for you because how white you are, you're basically a ghost, so you're able to slip through and just get all the easy routes. Um, I'm being satirical for anybody listening, um, doesn't understand that, just— he's just sarcastic. Um, if you work your ass off like Tyler Wagner Wagner, like I, I have— I do, but in a much different way. Totally.

Yeah, but I want to talk about that. Well, let's—

no, because like, I think I also have a secret weapon though, because if, if I didn't have my best friend Jenna, I'd be a lot more— I'd be a lot— I'd be much less affluent. Yeah. And I wouldn't— if we weren't together working in this specific model for how we're doing it Yeah, I don't— it wouldn't work. I would have to do it in a much different way. And that's just, you know, I'm responsible for that because I could have— I could just not, you know, I— if anyone has someone in their life that they are, you know, they work with, that they're taking— that they're with, like, personally, you're responsible for how you treat them, for how you communicate with them. So I'm responsible for that. I'm grateful for that, but I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing, how I'm doing it, if I didn't have that relationship with a partner that completes everything that I am. Absolutely retarded. Yeah, I would have to go about another business model in another way, uh, to do where my genius lies and provide it for those that I, that I, uh, you know, was working with prior to knowing her and all that, it wouldn't be the same. So I think about that a lot, like, wow, you know, is that a— maybe that's even a sign, you know, the values of— the value of an honest, intimate relationship with someone that you actually work with too. I don't know, these are— these are things I think about now. Like, it's taking a lot of sac— it takes a lot of sacrifice when you are, uh, in a relationship. And just for context of the audience, I'm in a relationship with some— with my best friend that I work with. So, you know, and we didn't work together before. Our relationship evolved over time to be intimate. We were friends and then developed over time. Like, I didn't realize that we were going out until like way later. I'm so good at running from Intimacy. So that's another layer of complexity to who I am and what I do with companies because it isn't I can speak for me. I'm talking through my being right now, but the I is a we because we're like a hand in a glove when it comes to our business and what we do with our client partners. And my metaphors run out in that regard as far as the Game of Thrones. I don't really There aren't really characters for that. Like that, I don't, I can't really, I don't really know, but I'd have to think that clear.

So how does HR feel about this?

Well, it's interesting because we're as far, oh no, that's, skip that question. This is, there is no HR because we're just, we're an extension, right, of those that we're with. And what will that look out? I know that the, um, by the time we have a website, it won't, it won't, it won't share our client partners as a converting. It will have the information that I've developed, the curriculum, the literature, and so on and so forth, the interactive training that we've developed. It'll have all that for Joe or Mary or Bob or whatever that doesn't have an experience with me, doesn't have a relationship like you do with me, that doesn't have access to me, for them to be able to get the information that I've codified, that I'm learning as I go. Like, that's what it'll have. It won't have our client partners and positioning them. We keep that close to the vest. Could people figure it out if they follow me? Yeah, but it won't have that. And there's a limit to— there will be a limit to that. Um, like, I'm cutting that off at a certain number, and we're almost there. It'll take a couple more years because I, I, I, I interview 37.5 people before I— before we even create a partnership. It's extremely— it's totally the opposite. I'm not talking to people like this. I really enjoy— I, you know, we're doing these every couple months. Um, Other than that, I don't talk to anybody other than those that we work with, and I, I'm just reading all day long and writing and developing cricket. That's all I do with my time. And the reason I do that on my time is I'm interested in certain questions that I can't answer.

I—

and that's it. Business to me is fascinating. I think that academia and business being separate is a mistake. And I've got more questions than answers. So, I feed myself with answers. Meaning, we have a business that profits based on the feeding of answers to others to help them. And I just feed all my energy back into unlearning. And that's what I've decided to do with my life. So, take my curiosity and my insecurity and put it into Like, I know I'm wholly unemployable. I can never— I, I, I, I, you know, I was born an entrepreneur because I was— I just had a great mentor. My mom is the most disagreeable human I know, who was like, Jay, you're very smart, don't go to school. And I'm so She said that? Yeah, that was the advice I got when I was little. Like, don't go to school. You're, you're like— she gave me a lot of confidence. I had a lot of confidence. But she also always had books in the house, like her own little library. My Uncle Robert always read, like, read, read, read. He was— he, he didn't build any businesses or really do much in that regard, but he read, read. And my other uncle was the, was the entrepreneur, was the millionaire up next door kind of thing, owned lots of real estate. And I was like, I want to be like him, but I also want to be like him. So that was that. That started the shaping my psychology. This is a lot of things coming up lately, a lot of what was shaping my psychology. I believe I was born to do what I do. I was born to parent entrepreneurs in a sense. To help them learn, to help them think. And so, no, I never— I wouldn't. But that's the opportunity we all have today. I think the next evolution of business and society, if we're going to maintain our liberties, if we're going to maintain our freedoms, people that have that innate innate and developed gift of influence will always attract people that are attracted by that. And those that have that gift also are attracted to those that have that gift relative to their gift. Life is an infinite hierarchy. We see it with Clubhouse. We could talk about that. Every idol has an idol, and every idol is an idol of someone else. And that infinite hierarchy that exists, you can't even see it. We can't touch it. It's always going to live there, no matter if we have buildings that say HQ, corporate, and people will always work for other people. But how they work for them will be completely different in the next couple decades if we maintain our freedom, if we maintain our liberties. We may not. We may not. We may become a society of complete totalitarianism, and we may, you know, a lot of people may be put in camps and die. I don't, you know, that's a possibility. I don't I, my hope is that that won't happen, but I know damn right it won't happen to me. I'll be getting out of here real quick. I'll know first. I know that I will know first and I will be leaving. But now where would I go? Um, anyway, I digress because I could go in a couple different side bends on, on that conversation. So to answer your question, everyone here should have, if they want to have convertible opportunities A website with testimonials edifies you, it creates credibility, it increases the likelihood that your potential customer will work with you. It depends who you are, how you want to grow your business, how you want to grow your life. Do you need a website in 2021? No, because you're connected to your potential customers through Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn. Like, I find people I'm interested in I interview them, and if I want to work with them, I tell them I want to work with them and I explain what I do. So, that's—

is that how it's kind of— and then, just through the great work that you do, sometimes some of your clients might be— have they— sometimes they refer? No, I would never take a referral because—

well, no, but this is— remember, different business model. So, if I'm sitting in your position, I would take— I would be— I think your business model is beautiful and I'd like to unpack it. Because I want to understand. But in the context of what I'm doing, uh, because if I get— okay, so I'll explain this. I actually have a diagram on this that I don't have with me, but let's say I meet somebody I don't know. I mean, and they're, they're, they're more— it's if, if compared their, their, their track record like, meaning what they've accomplished in their life, their age, their designations, their monetary, uh, accumulation. By all stretch of the imagination, if an audience was judging who was more successful in a free market economy, they would say that person's more successful than Jay. So let's say that scenario, and I don't know them. And they're also— if we judge all the, all the human beings that we work— we, our organization, worked with now That person also is more successful in all those designations than all our people. I'm reaching out to that person to get to know them. I'm doing it through inquiry. Already there's a value that I'm giving them they can't buy. Well, they could, of course, uh, but they don't even know that. But technically Even if it's bought, rather, this is how I'd rather say it. They are not going to do it themselves because that's part of my work. So, but now I'm reaching out to this person. That's an opportunity, and we could call this sales, and that's okay. Sales doesn't have to be a dirty word if you're not dirty. Whether we're all dirty, it's like how we choose to be clean. I should say that. So I choose to be as clean as I possibly am aware of that I'm being. So by me reaching out to this per— let's say call them What do you want to call them? Zarathustra. Okay, that's what it is. All right, Zarathustra is more successful than everyone I work with and me based on how we would define it in a free market economy— what they've accomplished, their education, their experience, their age, their money, their wealth, all of it. Me reaching out to them Let's just use arbitrary numbers. I have 100 units of energy. I'm reaching out to them. No, I'm going to use 1. No, I'm going to use 0. 0. It's just potential. I reach out to them. We, we have a dialogue. At the end, that I believe that— okay, because they agree. I say, this is someone I would work with. Now they, because my interaction with them has been bringing out their gifts. I've done research, I've been prepared, and my whole focus is to follow my first value: give first, intend to help, and get started today. Well, the give first and intend to help is the interaction. I'm interviewing them. I'm bringing out their gifts to the world which simultaneously is content for their organization to share; it's also enjoyable for them because it's counterintuitive to what I would say is the human condition— me, me, me, me, me! So at the end of that engagement from one standpoint, know how to put a word on it. That zero likely will be— have a positive, let's say 10. Let's say there's 10 units in the relative to their, their subconscious bought into me, and they're conscious now trying to figure out who I am, what I'm about. This, this fucking guy doesn't have a website. What's he do? Who's he work with? None of that's there. You know what? By none of that being there, I have the most authentic representation of who this person is because they're going to treat me how they are. I've been treated very interestingly by a lot of very, very prominent people. You would think that— you think, I wonder if they treated me— if they would have treated me that way if they knew what they don't know. Yeah, very interesting. So I get off on all this shit, but partly because I don't trust people. That's embedded in my psychology, which has always been part of— that's, I believe, an innate presupposition to entrepreneurship is the lack of trust. We're the totalitarians of a free market economy, entrepreneurs. So part of it is I don't trust, but part of it is also I get the clearest representation of who the person is. I'm looking for the partners that we're going to grow our life with. We go deep in these relationships, deep. So let's go back to the back. The conversation's over. Let's say it went well and I'm interested in this person. Now, if they don't know what I do, I have to explain that to them. Psychologically, let's just give them 10 units of energy as a positive representation of, I like this person, he's great, I wonder now what he does or what he's doing. That puts me in a position where sharing it, there's an interest, more than not. But all of that goes out the door because Well, rather not out the door. It's all relevant to the likelihood that— remember, conversation, what's the etymology of a conversation? Convert. I believe X. I believe I can help them, uh, with X to solve for Y. If I now have an engagement with them, I'm aware that Y exists, meaning there's a, there's a problem I think I solve it with X. So I— all this is just to answer your question. I am going to have to embrace conflict. I'm gonna have to tell this person the truth. I'm going to have to also burden the emotions that I feel relative to what they feel when I tell the truth based on what I know or believe I know. That they may or may not have ever even thought about. That conflict— so let's say you— I'm going to use the example for everybody. If you're cold calling people, right, calls that only lead to disappointment because you're looking at them that way, you're cold calling somebody, hey Bob, this is Barbara, I want to tell you this. If they go fuck you, well, you have an opportunity to work through that in yourself, that emotion, feeling rejected, and projected on them, or not. You know what, Bob, it makes sense that you think fuck me, because fuck me, why am I calling you? But this is what I'm curious about: when's the last time you bought your auto insurance? Yesterday, you fuck. You're the 8th person to call me. Like, God, if only I was the first. I am a nice guy. How long did you have it before that? Now, one could call this a script. Right now, no, it's a script once we write it down. And I would say things start true and then false. So that already is a good representation of how if I'm having a conversation, I'm just present and inquiring, I'm starting with 100 units of energy. If I write it down, now that script is 99 units of energy. Anyone that learns from that is already going to start at 99. So they're already commoditizing the virtue. So that's an example of what my point is about to be in this conversation with Zarathustra. When I engage with Zarathustra, let's say that the relationship ends with Zarathustra hiring me to be the hand. Anyone that Zarathustra introduces me to, the likelihood is a very high likelihood— well, no matter, it's just, let's just look at this. They're going to have 99 units of energy relative to me, and they'll never have 100. That's how I look at it, because their energy started from Zarathustra engaging with them and them to me. So they already have a preconceived notion. Now, from a business standpoint of growing a culture, that's very good and smart because now, like, you're exponentially increasing a curve of opportunities. So I'm not I'm not saying that's a bad strategy. That's a— that's actually much smarter strategy than going to cold. But what I am saying is this: there's diminishing returns for the individual with that strategy, that the— with all individuals depending on the context. For me, so like, I will not have to work through as much conflict internally relative to the external conflict of the disbelief of my prospect if they've been introduced by Zarathustra. So I use 99 units of energy to represent 1 energy unit less than 100, which was my relationship with Zarathustra. It was 100. It started as 100. Zarathustra introduces me to, um, Cleopatra. Cleopatra is 99 units of energy relative to me. Cleopatra has a great experience, introduces me to Abigail. Abigail's 98 units of energy relative to me. They'll never be more than that because it came from that. These are just arbitrary non-numbers that don't mean anything to anybody, but the essence is this: I grow more as a human being in my journey to understanding who I am and getting to the, uh, I'm gonna, uh, you know, Elon Musk Or, you know, beyond that, right? Like, Kim Jong-un needs a culture puzzle. Fucking guy's fucked up. From the challenge of going— and this is, this is important, this is, this is— think about this a lot— the difference between proactivity and proactively reactive. I think I'm proactively reactive. Not to say it's bad. The bad and good, you know, is relative. I'm definitely proactively reactive where I would believe I'd be proactive with taking, converting what comes to me. But I grow from the proactivity. So now my whole business is about my growth impacting those that we work with. So it's for where we are in our— for what we're building, I can't actually work with any referrals. I can't personally, depending on the legions that are grown from it.

Inevitably. I, I, I, yeah, I see what you're saying.

How— so I'm thinking the terms that people could take away from this. Everyone actually could take away, uh, a life-changing psych, uh, philosophy from what I'm saying. The diminishing returns of success in a business is that the more success— the paradox of success is the more success one has, one develops, the less one has to challenge themselves psychologically and philosophically to unlearn. And cultism is a natural byproduct of that. Nihilism or meaninglessness is a natural product of that. So one has to make constant strides to get out of their comfort zone and interact with people. That their very presence makes them uncomfortable. And if the founder of an organization doesn't do that indefinitely, they will inevitably be enslaved by their success, their money, their accumulation, the horde of yes-men and yes-women that surround them. That, uh, at every level, the, the fans. And before they know it, they'll have a god complex, um, but hate themselves. Like, so my recommendation would be have more conflict, develop mediums in your life and your business for your face to interact with people that make you uncomfortable. Example why you doing your podcast the way you're doing it today is amazing. And no matter what, and actually with the juxtaposition of having your podcast not be about business, with human beings that you just want to get to know that are at an infinite resolution of their perceivable success, right? Like all sorts of people you never meet. And you having the node-like funnel of focusing on refer— strong referrals, that juxtaposition— that's all about business. That juxtaposition puts you in an amazing position as a business owner to grow from what I'm talking about, 100%, and frame yourself so those people are like, dude, Tyler Wagner is a serious influencer, that's somebody I want to be working with.

Yeah, what's funny is, uh, kind of— actually, let me say one more thing. Yeah, go ahead.

I'm insecure about if I've clarified this. If I could say this in a more simple way, I, uh, in, in one set, in one moment of interaction, I can only be present with one person at a time. So if, if I have the choice, if I have the choice If the context is about growth, psychological and knowledge growth as an individual, I'm gonna grow more from conflict with a stranger than conflict with a friend. Yep. And a friend— you're automatically friends with someone when their friend introduced you, which is a smart business. This— a business and life thing, that's a good thing. Like, all businesses— all cultures, rather, are built through referral, whether we're aware of it or not. But, but there's diminishing returns if the, if the founder isn't like— and that's right, my faith is revealed in how I interact with my enemies. And someone that doesn't know me, like me, and trust me will, will have the highest likelihood that then they're going to shame me, call me names, not believe in me, not believe me. And I have to actually act out my virtue, overcoming their objections, overcoming their, their beliefs, overcoming them. And if I'm not always doing that, I'm missing out on, on growth. I'm missing out on personal growth. So I've— we built, we built our model around that. Yeah, at this point, very counterintuitive. Does that help?

It does. I explain it that way. Just to be clear, I 100% get everything you just said there. And I hope people listening, you know, essentially you defer, I guess is the right word, the referral, because the main goal right now is not necessarily to obtain another client. You're saying that the root goal is for you to grow and embrace conflict. And it's interesting to me because when I speak of the partnerships Like, in a sense, after hearing what you just said, it's not the only reason, but one of the reasons I may have even scaled the company this way is due to an avoidance of conflict. Because I've always said to people that I personally don't like love a direct sales call. So, and I've said these exact words, when a partner refers somebody to us, I don't view it as a sales call. It's kind of like a get-to-know-you call because the sale's already kind of closed, you know what I mean? Because like we've already done books for that publisher, like that publisher has been working with that author for a year. So by the time they get to me, they, you know, they know the publisher for a year long and the publisher's like, yo, to market your book, these are the people you go to. That's not even a sale at that point. That's just Sometimes the sale goes through without them even talking to us. It's, you know, so there is no conflict at all, you know. I would say the next—

or rather, go ahead, I need to understand. I was—

no, I was just gonna say, from a business standpoint, it flows very well because there's, in a sense, there's, there's no objections to overcome, right? Because it's just like trust by association over and over. And like, I've— I think I've I sent you this the one time. I've had scenarios literally where like a ghostwriter, an editor, 3 publishers, there was 6 people in total, 6 partners, all referred the same person to me. And it's getting to a point where that actually is happening more and more, where it's like 2 or 3, not 6, but 2 or 3. And when that person— it just happened a couple weeks ago, 3 different people referred the same guy to me, and literally we hopped on a call for 10 minutes. It was a Zoom call. And it was for a fairly large deal. And he was just like, he's like, dude, 3 people referred me to you. He's like, I don't really, I just wanted to get to know you. He's like, oh man, just send me the thing and I'll send it. Amazing. So, I'm just saying, it works. But there is, but I do see what you're saying and maybe I don't, I never, because again, the podcast I've viewed, there's a lot of different reasons I guess I do it. Fun, maybe it is to embrace conflict, kind of, because you— I don't know. I never put that in.

I'd say it's a symptom of not— Yeah, yeah. No, no, that's what it is. This is not an either-or. That's the thing.

What I'm trying to say is like, I think because the podcast challenges my brain, and in a sense, the business— I'm not— I look, I'm not saying it's just like easy. I'm not saying that. But the business, because of how—

No, but you are saying that. Can you at least own that for these people? They understand that. Someday, if they're that good, if they keep their word— well, then, yeah, I gotta call you out. If they call me out, I want to know your word like Tyler Wagner Wagner has, and work your ass off with regimented discipline, you will get to the point where you build a life for yourself. You don't owe anything to anybody. You can help your family create opportunities. And you may feel like it's easy. Okay, because it is easy because you've literally done the work.

It is easy.

It is easy, admit it, because that's actually—

oh, you know, yeah, I guess I, I'm looking at it from two—

I'm looking at easy. It's not challenging me. I'm looking at it from two angles.

Like, right now, the way the business is currently running and how well we're doing, it is easy. And I can do whatever I want, which is sometimes not the best thing. Oh, let's own it. So, but then it comes back to what you said, the paradox of success. And actually, it's just, it's so cool with timing of things because Jordan Peterson and Michaela Peterson just interviewed Mark Manson. And Jordan Peterson talked with Mark Manson about this. Mark is like, um, the subtle art of not giving a fuck. So, but he, he saw, he talked about this in a sense of like When you're starving, if you get to eat, you're happy, right? Because that's what you— there's only one thing that you need when you're starving, and that's food. So when you acquire it, yes, yes, then you're good. Now when you have— when you're, you know, successful and there's— you just have— you could do whatever you want, then the question is, what do I do? Like, what should I do with all this? Godforsaken time. And then, and that's why, and as you were talking, because there was like 4 different questions that I wanted to ask you as we were talking about this. So, so I, I was putting it in my notes, but you said, and this is one of the things that I think you, that you do, and that I, um, also do but not as, um, knowingly of the questions, is you have more questions than answers. So that, and you read all the time, right? So now that's something you can do with all this time. So I listen to audiobooks and I'm like an open, um, open book, let's say, of like, of knowledge and wanting to learn and interviewing interesting people. But I don't know if I necessarily at this very moment have like specific questions I'm trying to answer in the world. You know what I mean? That I've like sat down and mapped out. Like, it's more like an ever-flowing of like, you know, I want the world to do better. I obviously don't want, you know, we'll get it because that's one of the other questions, Soviet, Russian, what's happening in today's world. You know, I don't want that. So, if I can help prevent that from happening and keep us in a freedom trajectory, I will, you know, do that, whatever I can do to help that. So, either way, what are some of those questions? Like, do you know, like, I'm sure you have them written down somewhere or something, or maybe, you know, like, what are these bigger questions that you're trying to answer? Because I feel like for somebody who's successful, that is something very fun to fill your time because they're like big questions, not just like questions you just—

Before I would be, you know, before I Before I had the time, I made the time. Yeah, because the questions are actually, what is my business?

Yeah, okay. Yep.

Which is why I'm in the position, which is, which is what my value is to the business owner. Like, for example, The— one of my questions. Not all, like one of them. I'm using it because it's relevant to what I want to say to you. Okay. Uh, something I want to say to you that I don't want— I don't want to go back to the other conversation. I would like to align them. So one of my questions is, how is— how, how does business maintain itself? How does business culture maintain itself when opacity has been— has always been a fundamental law of business culture? And opacity is like non-transparency. Thank you for clarifying. Meaning, how does business maintain itself and our culture develop through conflict when part of what maintains a market economy or capitalistic economy is admiration. And there's a strong relationship between admiration and insecurity. People working towards aims and seeing in other people what they think they lack in themselves. How does— because when it comes down to it, we're all naked, insecure, fear. Like, we all share these, you know, self-imposed shackles. Freedom is maintained. I think freedom is maintained partly by hope. Seeking in others what you don't think you have in yourself. So how does it— how does— how do we continue to develop when we're all— we're all— we're all— we're all so connected that we can see We can see other people are just other people. How do we— there's a lot of— there's a lot of— we believe in each other. When I say we, like everyone listening to this, me, you, we believe in each other. We believe in our culture. More than we can comprehend because there's just so many things we take for granted. How do we maintain? And I think— I believe that's maintained because we haven't been so connected. The more connected we're becoming, the less connected we're actually to each other because of the responsibility that comes as an individual. To our emotions and our projections. So I'm interested in how, if I boil it down to like simple questions, what is listening? What is thinking? What is truth? I think that business is a business. Is a real-life laboratory for a social scientist. I'm not saying I'm a social scientist. I have no designations in that regard. However, I approach my life through interact— inquiry, interaction with these questions and serve businesses in their best in my best effort to serve their constituents better, their customers, their employees, and so on? Through these questions, I think business is— I don't think we understand business at all as a culture. I don't think business owners understand business at all as a culture. I don't understand business. Totally. I'm interested in it, and I'm interested— and integration is what I'm interested in. I see a lot of either/or. Like, for example, earlier, this— here's a real way I could describe it. Sales conversations, when you feel you could take from another That's a conflict you'd naturally avoid, correct? Yeah, definitely. So you've created through your ingenuity, and that, that's a thing that conflict is, we're in conflict. And so through our avoidance of conflict internally, we represent that conflict through new ideas, ingenuity, and develop external creation. That's what I think is that internal conflict, uh, leads— is the impetus for external creation. How we interact through with others relative to our internal conflict and the external conflicts that arise reveals us, and the world is created through us. All technology, all innovation, everything. So I'm gonna use you as an example. This is the easiest way for me to process this. If you are, whether aware or not, don't like the conflict of X, which would be the sales conversation, so you come up with a new idea, which is Y: I'm just going to have people make the introductions. And in those introductions, as a symptom of not working through this conflict here, which is the original sales conversation. When you have that conversation with that person that was introduced, you may not feel comfortable going and finding out who they voted for, what happened when they were 8, what favorite color they have, because that could potentially fuck up the whole introduction and piss Bob over here off that made the introduction. Yeah. So now you— but, but you Keep your word, keep your commitments, work your ass off, talk to a lot of people, and do the job that you've been hired to do. And if you do that long enough, more and more people are going to make those introductions. You're okay. So now you have all the time, but you don't know what to do. Well, because the whole time you could have actually been doing what anything anyone could ever do, which is all we could do, which is have conversations. That's all life is. If we're not having conversations, we're chopping each other's heads off with swords like Game of Thrones. I gotta put my hat back on. If we're not having conversations, we're just killing each other. So that's why the first— hold on, I'm not finished. So now you say Fuck, I better start a goddamn podcast where I actually listen to people, but I'm not going to interview people I work with because I don't want to fuck it up. No, it's not that, it's you. We have to— so, so, so my, my question is, I'm like, this is my question: how do we as The mentally ill. This is where the entrepreneurs are, the functioning mentally ill of society that take our insecurities, our pains, and we build the world. Nietzsche said, uh, a visionary lies to himself, the liar lies to everyone else. It's one of my favorite quotes ever because I lie to myself. I'm an honest liar. And I share what I think I can do with the world. Like the entrepreneur, I share what I think I can do with the world, and people buy into that, and they don't. And the ones that buy into it, I better fulfill what I said I was going to do. And if I do that long enough, I'll stack up the money. And if I do that well enough, I'll hire a few people, and they'll keep doing it too. This is a question I have: how do we integrate ourselves in our, in our work so it's meaningful? How do we integrate it? Well, I think part of how we integrate is where we embrace conflict. To do that, we have to be open. To be open, we have to be knowingly curious. And to maintain that, we have to tell the truth. And asking questions is a part of that concoction. I don't know what listening is. I'm trying to figure that out. But I do see with my observation that people confuse listening with understanding. My belief is that when the business is integrated with the individual, with the individual that leads it, they're more likely to develop a culture that helps other people start trusting themselves, valuing themselves, learning through their work. And in the free time, the individual will know how to live because they learned how to live through their business. I think business and college, academia, The fact that they're split is an issue for the future of a culture that's completely connected through technology. We have to learn how to live through what we provide as far as value relative to the culture. We're not even looking at the business in the way that we need to look at it in the 21st century. So I would use, like, you as an example, is that you have an opportunity in your next couple interviews to have someone on in your industry and get to know them as a human being intentionally. And you may or may not have a deeper relationship with them in work. You may say, oh, I don't like any of the politics they have at all, but I'll still work with them. Well, I enjoy our argument. I'm just, I'm just making, you know, that's the best scenario though, because what do we do with our— I had a cleverness that I don't, I don't do all this with my free time. I have all this— none of this time is free. Like, I've— I was already doing this when I didn't have any money. That is my business. I'm interested in these questions. You know, in some sense, we're all entrepreneurs, even if we're working for someone. We're going to be entrepreneurial in our— like, that's the future of business that I'm not quite sure what it'll look like because we're all autonomous beings. Like, you hear all these claims of how, you know, Accountability, that's an antiquated word in the 21st century. When the leader is accountable to themselves, they develop a culture of autonomy. So I'm interested in, you know, I can keep going into different questions and things, but my, my, my, uh, and it's humbling because I feel more inadequate by the moment. I like reading, right, you know, learning Like, wow, I'll never know anything. But how am I— so how am I interacting with other people? You'll find when you have all that time, you're gonna be left with conversations. Anyone listening to this that may consider themselves not successful, how you talk to your mother— and I'm using her as an example because that's someone I was good at not talking well with— will reveal how successful you are. And your kids and your friends and your family and your enemies— I don't think there's a— there's, there's a— there's a separate— there cannot be a separation with business and life in the next epoch if we're going to have freedom, because there's a totalitarian psychology to business that I think is, uh, a price we pay for the freedom that we have. That if it's not through business, it's through government. Should be good now. All right, cool. I just got a couple, uh, books in the mail that I'm giving to, uh, I'm giving these to one of our client partners' kids. Oh, nice. Rich Dad book. For the kids. Yeah, rich kids, smart kids, it's cool. All right, we're back. All right, we gotta— we gotta edit that or we just keep it?

I, I was gonna ask you. I, I want to keep it live, but I don't really give it—

okay, well, I don't really give a shit. Unintended.

Yeah. All right, we'll keep it live.

That's up to you. Yeah, I mean, if It probably makes— mostly because the lag issues. I mean, I'd probably cut it just so because—

oh yeah, it's a long lag. Okay, gotcha.

People would be waiting. Yeah, 10 minutes, it's like, are they doing this or are they not?

But yeah, yeah, okay, give me one sec because I just want to, uh, you know, I want to make sure I remember that. Um, cut in middle lag. I'll let my—

yeah, it was about, um, 2 hours in. Yeah, perfect. Okay, and we're looking good too on the Wi-Fi. So we're—

I think we were good timing. Yeah, yeah, because we were starting to move into the, um, like Soviet Russia.

We haven't gotten to any of the topics I wrote down. Nuh-uh, that's wild. No, uh, no, we haven't. Um, what topics did you write? I've got Well, it's not a surprise because I actually— these are topics I wrote down for the Openly Outspoken podcast. And I didn't really— we didn't go into any of them either. Maybe I think one of them we went into. So I still have the list. It's like, oh no, we did go into— let's see, we went into two of them. So that's not relevant. The Gulag Archipelago, guess what? I started reading that. Oh yeah, I know.

I wanted to talk.

Yep, I've started reading it. That's something, uh, anyone listening to this, if you haven't read Alexander— anything written by Alexander Solzhenitsyn, he is a monster. He's a monster. He's got over 20 books. I know it's my— I know at least 20 books. Um, this year he's one of the authors that I'm going nuts, all in his— in his book, in his literature. I just started another book he wrote called Cancer Ward. Really powerful. He's a brilliant writer. Uh, so we'll talk about that a little bit. Uh, I have— there's a book that I recommend everyone listening to this to buy and read that I haven't finished yet. It's called Cynical Theories. There's a mathematician cultural pundit named James Lindsay. James Lindsay. It's got a— it's got a podcast. I think it's called The New Discourses. It's the— my favorite podcast I've ever listened to. I don't listen to podcasts. I read books. If I listen to a podcast, what do you like? Because me and Jenna are like watching mindless television. Uh, it's funny, the irony. Uh, he— well, because if you get in the rhythm of— hey, I— if someone starts listening, reading hundreds of books a year, I would recommend they probably, you know, go to the sources.

Um, Well, the Gulag, uh, one Jordan Peterson recommended.

Yeah, sorry, I'm like all over the place, man.

Jordan Peterson, he's like, you should— he's like, if you can read it, you should read it. Like, not like if you can read, but like almost like if you can handle it, because it's a lot.

I think he says it's about— it's roughly 1,817 pages. Yeah, yeah, it's not your short book. Okay, so this is the thing. I, when I read books, that's one thing I wrote down to talk about. I don't just read the book. Uh, I have some books next to me here, like here's Utopia. I haven't read this one yet. I'm reading this, this year, quick read. But I don't just read it, I also listen. So I'll read a chapter And then I'll listen to another chapter, and then I'll read a chapter and listen to another chapter. I come up with all sorts of different ways to get through the books. Yeah, it's, uh, my, my intention is to not memorize the content at all. That's not who I am. Ever has been. But to grasp it and think through it, kind of how I approach a conversation, asking questions. And yeah, so I'm listening, I'm reading, I'm doing both. I go back and forth. I've built up a discipline over the last 2 years to read, to physically read, because it does something different from my perspective. It feels different, but most of I end up absorbing, or consuming rather, and working through is audio. But I go back and forth. So just for context, so the Gulag, I have it right here, the first one. Where is it? Oh yeah. Oh no, it's right here. I want to see some books right here where I'm sitting.

No, that's it.

That is some of them.

That's the Gulag, that whole thing.

This is Well, it's, it's, it's right on— yeah, the whole thing. Actually, here's two of them. This is what the Gulag looks like. That's the Gulag. That's one book. These three books, that's the Gulag. Oh, I mean, wow. And this is counted as one book. It's, it's a serious investment. And I wouldn't get through books like this if I didn't do audio as well. I read, I consider slow. I listen on speeds from 0.08, so less than 1, up to 2. It depends on the book. It depends on the content. Not all books are created equal. A lot of dumb books now, but that's subjective because what I thought was dumb and then was— is dumb— isn't dumb now, and vice versa. It's an individual experience. And that's the thing, reading isn't— it's about— you got to put the work in. Something happens to you because you're never going to read everything, and you never— you're not supposed to. It's just not going to happen. Well, of course you— anyway, I want to talk— I'm going to read something from The Gulag. There's a page that I think should be read. All right, now, now, that's the thing though. This is a precursor. I'm also gonna do a monologue on The Gulag. I'm gonna release it. It's gonna be a couple hours long. My plan is to do a synopsis of the book and release it in the next month or two on the Culture Matters podcast. I'm just gonna sit there and, and share my experience with the book. I've been taking notes of the book as I go through it. I've been— something I do that people, you know, I rip pages out. Not totally, uh, I'll explain. Like, I don't usually carry a pen on me and a highlighter, so when I go past the page that I really like, something's on it, I'll rip it. I'll, I'll rip the edge off. See if I could show you an example here. Can you see that? See that? I just ripped the books apart. This is a page I liked. I did highlight it as well, but I ripped the top. Yeah, it's easy to find that way. I like it. I don't get— I usually destroy books. They get wet in the bathtub and it's all fucked up.

I know, the bathtub.

I don't know why I highlighted this. It says Anyway, we'll get— so, pay attention. Um, I had to stop. I decided to stop reading this book after— it took a little over a week to get through the first one. I also am not the type of person to read one book at a time. It's February 8th, 2021. I've started 38 books. I've finished 14 and the 15— I'm 10 minutes left of Friedrich Hayek's, uh, socialism. I forget the name now already. Uh, they all kind of match together when I read. What was that one like? I recommend everyone— okay, it's called— can you see it or is it too bright? Whatever. It's called The Fatal Conceit. It's too white. The Errors of Socialism. Yeah, no comment. Friedrich A. Hayek, Austrian economist, genius. I recommend anyone listening to this research Friedrich A. Hayek and Ludwig von Mises. They have great books on socialism and capitalism and Great. And they're not— it's really not that heavy, or it's— they're not— I recommend it. So anyway, I, I read multiple books at the same time. That's who I am. So my recommendation to other people would be go about how, how you go about it, but understand this: when your mind wanders Keep going. Don't put it down. Don't rewind it. Let your mind wander because you, you may be thinking. Just go.

Yeah.

So, and read opposites. Read one side and read the other side. Read How to Be an Antiracist and read Cynical Theories by James Lindsay, which I would like to talk about, which I haven't finished yet. What's that one about? Cynical Theories. I'm going to read the description so people can understand it. It's, it's from what I found, I've invested a lot of time last year, especially in postmodernism the last 2 years. People that are familiar with Peterson are from— may be familiar with that postmodernism. Um, let's see, where is it? This book is about a 10-hour book, and it condenses— it condenses all of what's happening in our culture Like starting in academia, it's brought itself all the way to media. It's kind of blanketed itself over our culture, but, uh, and embedded itself in politics. This idea of ideological bias, in the sense meaning, you know, my ideas are more important than yours, so you're wrong, I'm right, we can't talk about it. This breaks down the philosophies that are at the root of identity politics. That would be the best way I could put it, which is affecting all of our lives whether we're aware of it or not. Um, he's— so, How Activist Scholarship Made Everything About Race, Gender, and Identity, and Why This Harms Everybody. But I would recommend reading this book because it condenses a tremendous amount of literature that you'd have to read and absorb and learn from to understand what's happening right now in our, in our culture that's affecting politics, that's affecting businesses more than you'd even know, that's leading to lots of issues. It helps condense that. But I also recommend people going out of their way and reading White Fragility, How to Be an Anti-Racist, because if you haven't done the work of Openly interacting with other people's points of view. It's going to be harder to do it in person. When I started reading about race in America, slavery, Jim Crow, American history, I started to build a level of empathy that I couldn't have before I did it. Where I fall, where I personally fall on the spectrum, I don't think I have a political— I do not have a political party that represents my views. I study culture. It's hard. It's like my job is to understand what presupposes politics. Politics is a broker of different philosophies that are founded on different psychologies, that we mix it all together and we have what we have. So just the clarification, if anything, you know, I'm definitely more classically liberal. That means more equality of opportunity. I'm open to other points of views, and that's— and I work really hard as an individual to understand different points of views. So, and part of that work is to read the books that I disagree with. I have noticed psychologically it's easier to get through and read books that I agree with. There are still books that I haven't finished that I disagree with because every time they say something that I feel like, ah, I hate that. I want to take a note about it. I want to write down my opinion. I want to disagree with it. It's harder to get through those books. I find myself avoiding reading them. Me too. I find myself avoiding reading it. It's less enjoyable. It's less fun. It is. I'm sorry, what? Yeah, no, no, we're not live. Oh, Jenna's just talking to me. I just— I'm gonna ignore it. Come on, please go away, please. So, um, I won't embarrass you. No, no, it's you, it's fine. But yes, all right, uh No, actually, this is good. Like, if Jenna tried to talk to me like a year ago, like a year ago, I'd be so upset with her. She's interrupting me with my time with you and all these people, right? But reading these books, challenging my views by studying other people's that I disagree with, all of that's connected to how responsible I am with my emotions. In normal life. So when Jenna comes over here bothering me right now and interrupting me, I'm okay with it. Now she's laughing like, it's all right, it's not the end of the world. It could just— no, well, language reveals being. That's the thing we get confused in our culture. Don't change my words, be— or don't change your words. Understand what your language reveals about you and be conscious of the words that you use. That's it. Any— like, the order matters so we don't fall. What's happening in our culture is we're, we're, we're all succumbing to a totalitarian ethic. The conservatives are, are irresponsible how they're interacting with the postmodern, what's considered liberal but it's actually progressive and illiberal. How the conservatives are interacting with the progressive movement is also illiberal. Every time— what? They're on fine, but thank you. It's all good. I changed the— I changed— I put the— I put the Wi-Fi on my— on my phone. Yeah, we're all good, but we are live and we're recording. Can you go away? You just told me you weren't live, which is why I couldn't— No, like, we're recording. Well, we're not live on TV, but he's not going to edit this out. We're keeping it authentic. No, he won't. He will not do it. And that's why— Oh my, this is actually even better, because if I don't have open conflict with my partner in life, what relationship do we have? She might as well just be my property, or vice versa. No, I'd be her property. The point is this— that was a joke, that was a joke. But we have to keep this to show people what actual life is like. We— she, she has different points of view, I have different points of view. We have to come into conflict with another than one another and come up with the best strategy. I'm saying that the more that I read books that I don't agree with, as difficult as it is, I grow and it helps me be a better life partner, a better everything, better at everything. And that is a responsibility of all of us. And so when it comes to politics, every time I see conservative conservative-leaning individuals call progressive-leaning individuals libtards. Unfortunately, that is name-calling, is the lowest form of communication under ad hominem, which is a personal attack. So name-calling is the lowest form. That's right before violence. So how is that liberal? Well, it's not. And that irony, them acting out that irony, is only exacerbating— excuse me— exacerbating the problems in our culture. I would say it's reactionary. So the conservative side is reacting to the progressive side, which is— oh, which I think actually, as a culture evolves, that's what naturally occurs because conservative represents what is and what has been and what should be based on what is, what has been. And a progressive-minded, which is usually what the left would represent, is what is, how dare what was, and what can be, or rather I'll just use the same words, what should be. So both are arguing for shoulds, their own cultural self-projections, How they interact leads to what will be. The future is going to be an agglomeration of, of the inadequacies of both arguments on the right and the left. The future will be an outcome of how the right and the left interacts. Yeah. So whose responsibility is it? Well, whoever is living through their body. So the individual, like the individual deal, the individual ideal that the Conservative Party represents and talks about and says how it's important, if that is not lived out by the Conservative Party, lived out, they cannot overcome themselves. Well, then they're only going to be reactionary to the Progressive Party, which means that they're going to lose. Yeah, everyone loses, rather, I would say. Here's an example. I'm going to make this as clear as I can. If I'm in an argument with someone and we have different beliefs, name-calling them— now I'm in an argument with my worst nature because Whatever they believe is an idea that they've borrowed from their experience in the world. So you're not your— well, what are you? Are you your ideas or how you act? Well, who am I? My ideas are how I act. Well, they're connected, but how I interact will reveal if I— this goes back to our beginning of our conversation, at the etymology of conversation is convert. How am I supposed to potentially convert you to my opinion if I'm attacking you. I'm not going to. We're just having— we're going to end up at violence. We're just soldiers. We're soldiers in a war of ideas. In any ecosystem ideas, there's a handful of people that are the real— that are the highest avatar of the idea, right? The pundit. So there's the main pundits on the right and the main pundits on the left. Based on how well they interact with each other, how well they argue. All of their people interact modeling that behavior because they're the leaders. So what I see is no one's responsible in that way. Even— but now this is the thing. Popper, I'll bring him up. Karl Popper, he talks about in The Open Society— this is not this book, just his name— in The Open Society and Its Enemies, The paradox of tolerance is the more tolerant we are, it builds a space for intolerance to build. And the more intolerance builds, the tolerant are overcome and destroyed, and so are the intolerant. So where do you draw that line of demarcation? Like, when to combat the intolerance? Because the paradox of tolerance is the more you let intolerance blossom, it destroys you and It destroys the tolerant and the intelligent. My argument is how we argue, how we interact with those that we disagree with reveals everything about us. It's the conversation. And if it doesn't happen, a culture goes to a very bad place. Now, whose responsibility? That brings back, who does it fall on? It falls on anyone that's watching. It falls on you. Do you know people say like, oh, my vote doesn't matter? Yes, it does, because your vote represents your word. So when you say my vote doesn't matter, well, then your word doesn't matter. Then your life doesn't matter, how you interact in the world. Your word matters so much because, you know, but then you can say, ah, what does that even matter? Because only so many people are going to do something. That's not the way to look at it, because I don't control them. I'm not God. I'm just a fucking mortal. So I can— I'm in— I'm responsible of my words, so I have to tell you what I think, and I, and I have to work through my emotions as they come up. How all of this has to do with the gulag? No, the gulag— actually, I will— actually, I can connect it perfectly. On page 70, here's an example of what happens when our listeners, when me, you, when we don't read all sides of the equation, and we can't have open, honest debate, and we can't stand each other anymore, we stop questioning. This is what happens. Do you want me to read it? Yeah, I do.

Because I feel like we're in, we're in a time where that's kind of the case.

Like, this. Yeah. Let's see, hopefully—

is this it? And I think the mask is actually the biggest proponent of it, is one of the biggest. Yeah, the mask is a very— it's like you're a masker or you're a non-masker. It's like, it's one of the biggest dividers. And if you are a masker— and this is making a generalization kind of— but if you believe in the mask than somebody who does not believe in the mask, you already probably— and let's say maybe vice versa, although I would argue not as much, because I'm okay if you want to wear a mask. It's totally fine with me. I still think I should have to wear one, but whatever. But, but that's not whatever.

That is a big deal. Okay. The mask is a representation of the negation constitution of the Second Amendment. Okay, me too. So from a cultural perspective.

Okay, so perfect.

So the idea of the mask is you're not wearing it for you, you're wearing it for someone else. Yes. And that's why— and that sounds like a great idea, but that's at the core of what is, uh— and I wish I didn't have to go this deep with it, but it— but it is It is this deep because, because the, because the fact that you can't say as an individual in this culture, in this constitutional republic, in this classically liberal society where people can have free speech without getting canceled by culture, the fact that you can't even say, I don't want to wear it, I have this belief, I want to do this, and, uh, it's about— it's turned, uh, that, that's not in alignment with what we all are privileged to have, which is the liberties that we— excuse me— that we have where our government can't force us to wear it. That's why it's a mandate and not a law, and it's not something to just skip around and just like, ah, whatever. It's so important to understand that it doesn't have to be conspiracy conspiratorial. It's not conspiratorial. I, I don't, I don't have information to say that it would be or not, like, oh, people want us all to wear a mask. I don't know. I know that the accepting of it and the pushing of it would be very natural as a human idea, that, oh, I want to help other people. But at the root of socialism, which is the broker of communism, that is the root, it's all about. It— things that sound really like they're great, they're gonna work out, but no. Governments by nature are just agglomerations of different sets of people that are less and less likely to question authority. So these aren't just whatever conversation. I'm not putting I'm not harping on your words. Like, by and large, the fact that I think, and I think the party that just lost in the election did a very poor job of articulating their stance on masks and arguing that the idea that you have to wear it because that's the right thing to do and that's patriotic. That, that's it. That's, that's saying that's patriotic is irresponsible because it's a political opinion and it's polarizing to say that. And that's what the marketing was on the party that won. I paid very close attention to that because it's not about, it's not about a virus. There aren't a lot of arguments that can stand on themselves that the virus isn't legitimate. Like, but you can't say it's not political because all big decisions when it comes to health become political because the political parties that represent the individuals where everybody has different opinions about all different things Those political parties are set up in the structure of how we govern our society with the idea to give the most liberty as possible. They're set up to make those big decisions. So when the powers that be, the leaders' rhetoric, reveal contradictions to that setup, when it's one-sided like We know the science, you don't, and vice versa. By the way, everybody's responsible for this. And the former POTUS, which I don't even think I can say the person's name or this will get off, which is itself another scary thing. But the former POTUS, they weren't responsible either. If anything, how they interacted revealed how little self-awareness and emotional regulation they had. And that led to— no matter how that they lost, they lost. And I would argue that they lost because of how they weren't able to work through their own rhetorics, rather their own emotion, and how that affected their rhetoric. So they're just as irresponsible as everyone's irresponsible. That I'm more— I'm saying that the former POTUS was a symptom of the culture, and the culture is reactionary. So this is why I would take all this to the juxtaposition between our education in the country and our privilege through technology. I think that's actually at the root of all this. That's where I would go with it, and everything else is symptoms. And actually, damn, I was talking about masks. Here's a clever— that the idea of the mask where you are evil, psychopathic, all that for not wearing it, that's a misunderstanding of a lot. And that the root of all this is representative that our culture is leaning anti-capitalist. And we can make this all about what it really is. And it's a different form to govern society. And the two main political halves of the whole, the right and the left, they're cracked so far apart, they're not even a part of the same cultural foundations. And what that means is if leadership doesn't arise on either side that can unite, We're in grave, grave, grave danger as individuals. Like, the paradox of democracy— the more radical our democracy becomes, the less individuality everyone eventually has, because the more totalitarian the ethic of the governance becomes. It's like, the reason I'm not pro-mask is because I'm pro-death. That doesn't mean I'm pro-murder. There's a difference in saving a life and ending a life, of course. How we have the discussion about how we're saving lives matters, and not being able to have the discussion, to me, from a cultural perspective, is more dangerous than the virus. We have a cultural virus that is being revealed in this real illness. And that is more chilling. When people say it's not political, it's science, they have a complete misunderstanding of what science is. And they don't understand politics. And it's not funny. It's not a whatever. It's a serious thing. And it's scary because, God, we're so privileged. We're so privileged. So, okay, that's where I'll— and yeah, I could read this thing, but— and I think this is— it's representative of what— where we're going, actually. Yeah, but I'll wait. Yeah, no, no, go ahead.

Just so you know, I would actually love to dive deeper into that just for my own reasoning. The reason I said whatever is because we were on the Gulag So I was like, like, whatever, let's get through this, go back to that and then come back. Well, I'm glad you said whatever. Yeah, yeah. I didn't say whatever because I think it's small because I actually think relating back to what you said prior to of how when you read something that you agree with or watch or listen to something you agree with, it is more fun than what you disagree with. And I think that is actually one of the biggest parts of the problem here, whether you're on the mask pro side or mask not Pro, like, because you're feeding into the cycle always and you're not able to have that conversation because a lot of the non-maskers will look at somebody with a mask and think, I cannot believe they are wearing that mask all day, every day. Like, that is crazy. And then, I've been in the elevator with people in my condominium that wear the mask and in the elevator, I have to wear the mask or I will literally be kicked out of my building. So they will talk in front of me and they will say, I cannot believe every— like, people are scared of the vaccine. They are psychos. I cannot believe people don't want to wear the mask. They like literally— and like, I maybe— I don't say anything in that situation. Maybe I should, maybe I shouldn't, but there's a couple reasons there. But like, yeah, it is at a point where the conversation it feels very threatening to have, especially in person, because if I were to try to have the conversation there, well, you know, first off, maybe they're not as important. I have other things to get to that day. So that's just my 5-second commute in the elevator. But like, you know, it's a deeper thing to unpack. I've had people in my building tell on me, like go to the front desk, because some mornings when I go out for a run, I skip the mask. Like I just don't even wear it in the intermedium time. And people will like literally shame— they shame you. They look at you almost like filth. So we are at a point where the mask and the non-mask is very, very— it is looking at each other in disgust. Like, it's wild. So there is no conversation. It is either like, you are right or you are wrong. And if you're not on my side, you're wrong. I'm not saying I think I I'm just saying that's, that's the way it is. It's, it's crazy to me. So I think it's maybe one of the most important conversations to have, um, because we need to break through and have it. And I want the people to know that the ones that want to wear a mask, I'm not not wearing a mask because I want you to die, you know? Like, that's not why I'm not wearing it. I'm just not wearing it because I personally don't believe that it works, and I don't And I don't believe— they're talking about double masks now. So I mean, you know what, we're gonna eventually— it's gonna get to full bags and then boxes.

Let's take all the— let's talk— make believe it was a hypothetical situation from a cultural perspective. Yeah. If you wanted— if you want to alter a narrative, symbolism and mediums are puzzle pieces to altering a story. And individuals represent a story. So when I work with companies behind the scenes, we work on what's the story, what's the language, what's the symbolism, what are the mediums, who are you as the hero? Because if you want to alter a narrative, the color, the smell, the symbols, the mediums by which the leaders articulate the story through their language alters the culture. It increases buy-in or lowers buy-in on the consumer side, like the customer or the employee. All of this. So, so just, this is my focus every single day. So if we look at this culture and we look at the mask, it's a symbol that represents a specific way of thinking. And that way of thinking has a beginning and an end. So whatever the right reason is, it will have consequences on the culture. I believe the consequences of the conversation are greater risk for the culture than— like, even if they worked Even if they worked, that's right, and they save lives. Oh, oh, no, go ahead. If they— let's say masks work. Yeah, if masks worked and they save lots of lives, there are still consequences for wearing them because of how important faces are. It sounds stupid, like Our face is a representation of our individuality. Our individuality is a representation of who we are, what we are, how we interact in a society. From my study in the depths of the philosophy— that's why I recommend that book, Cynical Theories, as well, and then How to Be an Antiracist. These two books are relevant because at the bottom of both texts— well, at the bottom of, at the bottom of this, at each political party, there's completely different views of how to live in the world. And if one view has to be the only view, then the only way to get that— any view, whether it's right or left or what— the only way to get that view, which is the only allowed view is through forced coercion. So a society has to be a dictatorship in one form or another for everybody to believe the same thing. That's at the root. So, uh, at the root, at the root of the progressive movement is the philosophers that say individuality is bad. Individual— the individual is actually the problem. We don't want an individual. We want to be all good, you know. We want a collective. There's truth to their ideas, and that will only be uncovered if we look, if we, if we, if the smartest people in the world fucking talk to each other and figure that out. Yeah, that they dedicated their whole lives. No, but it's not— no, but I mean, you and me right now, we're borrowing— we're borrowing— everyone listening to this, you're— we're all borrowing. We have the privilege of borrowing all of the energy, the energy that the, that the most philosophical scientific humans that have, that have lived and live now invest all their energy in figuring out what the world is as that evolves. And we're borrowing all of that information, all that energy. Yeah, like let's take Einstein. We're all borrowing from Einstein's finite experience in this world. Like he had a certain amount of days, a certain amount of breakfast, lunch, and dinners, and we're all borrowing his energy still. So there's great privilege that comes with being. What I'm saying is, from my personal study, my limited study, those Einsteins They disagree. Oh, it's white. No, it's black. Oh, it's red. No, it's blue. They're looking at the same thing, but it's blue and red, and they can't come to an agreement that it's both in certain contexts. And a symptom of that, a symptom of that is mask, no mask, and the cost cost of the coercion of everyone having to wear the mask without a debate is greater than the death rate of it could be the plague, even if it was the plague at a 50% mortality rate. I'm sorry, but we don't understand ourselves enough to understand that we're gonna live, all of us, all humans. Agreeing to disagree, whether we know it or not. We're not going to know what the truth is of anything, of almost anything fully. And so if we move to— and that's why I'm interested in business, um, as a medium to understand human beings, because it— one of my fears of our society is that we move to where politics is science globally, um, meaning ideology is science globally. That's where things are moving. And what that would mean would be that most people that ever live from here on never have the opportunity to be, because part of being is questioning authority. New great ideas come from the conflict, which is a symptom of an individual questioning an authority. Every time you question your own beliefs, you're questioning your own authority as an individual. You actually are. You actually— and there's meaning there. Schopenhauer said life swings like a pendulum from boredom— from pain to boredom. I like that guy. When you're not beyond genius, like, I'm just barely even scraping him. I got his, like, kind of reading him for years, and I still just barely scraped the surface of this guy. I'm gonna read this page, okay? This represents what we're talking about. What happens when stop, when we can't, when we can't disagree, someone rises up and tells us what to think. And if, and if it ever turns, those that have honor, those that have virtue, are the first to be killed. Here is one— here it is, here, it's like a page and a half. Page 69, Volume 1, The Gulag Archipelago, Chapter 1. I believe it's called The History of Our Sewage Disposal System. And the sewage disposal system was the— what, you need me to get off? All right, I have to read this, then I gotta go. The sewage disposal system was representative of the camps, essentially, or rather the system by which people ended up in camps. Here is one vignette from those— wait, do you have closed your school? Is that what's— oh, okay. All right, I'm going to read it. All right, here is one vignette from those years as it actually occurred. A district party conference was underway in Moscow province. It was presided over by a new secretary of the district party committee. Replacing one recently arrested. At the conclusion of the conference, a tribute to Comrade Stalin was called for. Of course, everyone stood up, just as everyone had leaped to his feet during the conference at every mention of his name. The small hall echoed with stormy applause, rising to an ovation for 3 minutes. 4 minutes, 5 minutes. The stormy applause rising to an ovation continued. The palms were getting sore and raised arms were getting aching, were already aching, and the older people were panting from exhaustion. It was becoming insufferably silly even to those who really adored Stalin. However, who would dare to be the first to stop? The Secretary of the District Party Committee could have done it. He was standing on the platform and it was he who had just called for the ovation. But he was a newcomer. He had taken the place of a man who had been arrested. He was afraid. After all, the NKVD men were standing in the hall applauding and watching to see Who quit first? And in that obscure small hall, unknown to the leader, the applause went on 6, 7, 8 minutes. They were done for. Their goose was cooked. They couldn't stop now till they collapsed with heart attacks. At the rear of the hall, which was crowded, they could of course cheat a bit, clap less frequently, less vigorously, not so eagerly. But up there with the presidium, where everyone could see them, the director of the local paper factory, an independent and strong-minded man, stood with the presidium. Aware of all the falsity and all the impossibility of the situation, he still kept on applauding. 9 minutes, 10. In anguish, he watched the secretary of the district party committee, But the latter dared not stop. Insanity to the last man. With make-believe enthusiasm on their faces, looking at each other with faint hope, the district leaders were just going to go on and on, applauding till they fell where they stood. So they were carried out of the hall on stretchers. And even then, those who were left would not falter. Then, after 11 minutes, the director of the paper factory assumed a businesslike expression and sat down in his seat. And oh, a miracle took place. Where had the universal, uninhibited, indescribable enthusiasm gone? To a man, everyone else stopped dead and sat down. They had been saved. The squirrel had been smart enough to jump off his revolving wheel. That, however, was how they discovered who the independent people were, and that was how they went about eliminating them. That same night, the factory director was arrested. They easily pasted 10 years on him on the pretext of something quite different. But after he had signed Form 206, the final document of interrogation, his interrogator reminded him, don't ever be the first to stop applauding. Yep, they figured out who was the most independent person in the culture, in any room. By seeing who stopped, who stopped applauding first. And they arrested him and he went to jail for 10 years in that example. So relative to everyone in the room, that person was most likely to commit some act of treason, so much so that before doing anything illegal, they were arrested, went to prison. That was the culture of Soviet Russia. 100, you know, untold millions were sent to camps and and killed. Well, I gotta go. We'll continue starting from— we will continue next time, sooner than a few months. Yeah. Um, all right, I'll talk to you later. See you. All right, all right, bye.