Karen Catlin: Leadership Coach, Speaker, And Author | The Business Blast Podcast #868

All right everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Business Blast podcast. I'm your host Tyler Wagner, and after spending 25 years working in tech and serving as a VP of Engineering at Adobe, our guest today, Karen Catlin, is now a leadership coach, speaker, and author. Her latest book is "Better Allies: Everyday Actions to Create Inclusive, Engaging Workplaces." So welcome to the show.

Hey, thanks for having me, Tyler. It's great to be here.

Of course. Grateful to have you on. So the first one I got for you today is, what is the best story from your life that has an underlying valuable message?

Yeah, so as you explained in the introduction, I moved from being a VP of engineering to a leadership coach. And as I was doing that transition, it was a pretty big pivot in my career, moving from working working for large companies that provided me with a regular paycheck to casting out on my own and trying to do all the things that a small business owner has to do, I got the piece of advice that I really should probably speak in public more. Speaking in public would be a great way for me to get the word out about my business, to attract coaching clients, and basically build the business. And I have to tell you, when I heard that piece of advice, I was like, no, I don't enjoy public speaking. Most people, I, you know, I don't want to I don't think I'm very good at it, even though I have done some of it over the 25 years I actually worked in tech. But I kept saying, no, no, no, no, I'm not gonna do that. And then I kind of had a heart-to-heart with myself and said, you know, I probably should do that. And just set a goal for myself to speak in public once a month. I kind of just had to dive into the deep end and get comfortable with doing this thing. That was back in, well, just over 5 years ago, I set that goal. I pretty much have hit it every month, and I'm now kind of a geek on public speaking. I absolutely love it. I've co-authored a book on public speaking called Present: A Techie's Guide to Public Speaking. I teach public speaking, and I just, I absolutely love it. So the piece of advice that I want to share, you know, sort of the story from this part of my life, is that public speaking is like this multivitamin for your career. It helps in so many ways, whether you're starting out a brand new business like myself or trying to achieve something else with your career. But the visibility you get with sharing your perspective or speaking in public is just so critical to growing careers. And so that's the best story I think that has an underlying valuable message I want to share today.

Yeah, that is, it's so interesting to hear that because we have a very similar story with public speaking. Like, I just find it to be, at first I found it to be so daunting. Like, I was like, I don't want to do this. Like, I'm just going to grow online because I know all the online marketing strategies. That's kind of like my background. So I was like, I'm just gonna stick to online. And then I did it the first couple times and it was nervous, I messed up and like, they didn't go very well. And then after like the fourth or fifth time, it went really well. And then I'd be kind of, for lack of better terms, because this makes it sound bad, but I kind of became addicted to it. Like, I actually like seek out that like uncomfortable feeling of getting up there. And now I like love it. So it's interesting to hear that.

No, I think that's, I think that's great. And it's a little bit of an adrenaline rush, right? Yeah, that's what people do it a lot. It's an adrenaline rush, it feels good. And yeah, we seek it out more. It's so funny. Yes.

Adrenaline rush. That is accurate. Yes. So the next one I got for you is what is the most valuable piece of information we should know that's within your expertise or industry?

Yeah. So after I was coaching women, I had my coaching practice. After I had been doing that for just a handful of years, I started realizing that even if I were the most awesome coach on the planet, which I don't think I am, but even if I were the absolute best coach out there, I still wasn't going to be good enough. You know, I could help my clients lean in all they wanted and all they could and have all these skills around leadership, but they'd still face barriers. They were going to face barriers, generally speaking, because their workplaces were either biased or just not inclusive because most of our workplaces are run and designed for men. So I— what I started realizing is that we really need men to start making changes. It wasn't just about helping women. It was about helping men see the changes they could be a part of. And so I started working on a Twitter handle basically 4 years ago called @BetterAllies. And I just started sharing these simple everyday actions that men could take to create more inclusive workplaces and to be better allies, not just for women, but for anyone from an underrepresented background. And I started doing this hopefully to just like reach out, get a few people, but it's turned out to be something that's really striking a chord with a lot of people. It's a very popular Twitter handle, and that encouraged me to write my book, Better Allies, as well, which came out in January. So it is something that I became very passionate about, and I really wanted people to start realizing that you didn't need to be like the head of diversity and inclusion at your company. You didn't have to be the head of HR or people, but you could actually make changes regardless of what role you had at your company. And There's so much research, Tyler, about why this is important. Like, you know, there's research that shows that diverse teams are better at making decisions. They're better at problem solving. They're better at making and driving innovation. There's better financial performance when we have diverse workplaces. And the, I think a key thing here is that when we create an inclusive workplace where people from all sorts of different backgrounds can really like do their best work, they can thrive. That means that we're gonna be able to attract and retain retain talent better for our workplaces. And given the record low unemployment that we're seeing like across the United States, creating an inclusive workplace where people want to work and will tell their friends about and like attract more people is just like a silver bullet to ensure your company's survival. Um, so yeah, that's, that's sort of the piece of information, the most valuable piece of information I want to convey. Yeah.

And some of it could probably tie in, but my next one for you is what is your best piece of overall business advice? So not necessarily industry specific?

Yeah, so pay attention, and this is built on better allies, but pay attention to how people who are different than you experience your workplace and then take action. Take action to create a more inclusive culture. You know, some examples just to make it more tangible is take note of what's happening in meetings that you attend. You know, is everyone really fully participating, or are some people being interrupted or having ideas stolen? You know, where they bring up something and it doesn't quite resonate with everybody, but then someone else says the same thing later in a meeting and it gets— that person gets all the credit, right? Is that happening? Who's being asked to do more of the housework around the meeting? You know, taking the minutes for the meeting, or scheduling the follow-up meeting, or cleaning up the cups and mugs that might be left over at the end of the meeting. Like, who is doing all of that kind of work, or being challenged at really showing up their best in a meeting? And notice it, and See what you can do to disrupt what the norm is so that people really are more included. Or like the next time you're giving feedback to someone, we do this all the time, whether we have staff or that we're just being asked casually to provide 360 feedback to our coworkers. You know, make sure that you're providing constructive feedback to everybody. Not— there's research out there that shows that we tend to give shorter feedback to women than men. Shorter is going to be less impactful because there's not a lot that we're saying potentially. And also we tend to hold back from giving that truly constructive feedback, that helpful, sometimes tough feedback, but constructive feedback. We tend to hold back from giving it to people who aren't like us. So people who maybe are of a different gender or a different race or a different sexual orientation. And we hold back because we don't want to seem like we're being biased against that person because they are different than us, right? So Of course, this isn't fair. We all deserve to get great feedback so that we can grow our careers and learn. And so the piece, you know, just like make sure you're doing that equitably. So stepping back, you know, the overall piece of advice again is pay attention to how people who are different than you are experiencing the workplace and see what you can do to make a small change, a small action to make sure they're more included.

And then if you could give your younger self one piece of advice, what would that be?

Spanish. Yeah. Surround yourself with people who think big. When I think about the times that I've personally been able to be disruptive with either like my living situation or my career, it's always because someone has been by my side who has been encouraging me to think big, whether that was moving to another country or disrupting myself from moving from living on the East Coast to the West Coast of the States. I'm very inspired by people around me who think bigger. Maybe it was doing that career pivot, writing a book even. People who have either done that themselves or encouraged me really helps me step out of my comfort zone and do these things. So I wish I just had that advice much earlier in my life, probably in my teens, so that I could have Who knows? Who knows what would have been different, but it'd been inspired to even think bigger than I had been thinking about for myself.

And then kind of going a little bit down a different path, in your opinion, what is the key to happiness?

Yeah. A partner or a best friend who basically makes you a better version of yourself. And this in some ways is in keeping with the surround yourself with people who think big, but someone who can look at you and encourage you and cheer you on and help you do the things that you were meant to do on this planet with your life for your communities. You know, what is that? And can, can the person that you're spending most of your time with, whether that's a best friend, a partner, can they help you become the version, the best version of yourself? I certainly have that in my husband Tim of 30 years now. We just celebrated our 30th anniversary and I'm so very fortunate to have him. And that's my advice to others is, is is look for the person who's going to make you the better version of yourself.

And then what is the best book that you've read and what was the number one thing you learned from that?

Yeah. So buried, buried in the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People is a piece of advice which was critical to me. I read it years and years ago. That piece of advice is that whenever you are consuming information, whether you're sitting in a meeting or watching a lecture, or reading a book or an article, whenever you're consuming information, think about having to teach that information to someone else the next hour, the next day, the next week. Think about paying attention to that material you're consuming through the lens of, I'm gonna have to teach this to someone else. That piece of advice caused me to totally change how I was showing up in different settings in how I was consuming information. It forced me to like keep track of what are the key points here? What are the notes I want to take that are really going to help me summarize this for someone else? And in fact, that helped me as I was growing my career, definitely. But even now, as I think about developing keynotes or writing books, I'm always looking at what is the— how can I make it easy for other people to now absorb the material that I am trying to convey. So it's been a very interesting piece of advice and has been critical to me developing my voice over time, as well as just having it be a very practical approach to consuming information for me. Yeah.

And then what is your favorite quote and why? And I just wanna say, I couldn't agree more. I think there's actually a study done that was saying like the best way to retain information is to teach it, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And even if you don't have to teach it, imagine you're going to have to teach it because that will force you to follow that same discipline probably.

Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah.

So sorry. And then your favorite quote?

Oh, right. So there's a— Marshall Goldsmith wrote a book and the title of the book is What Got You Here Won't Get You There. And I love the title of that book. And it's my favorite quote because I find myself quoting that regularly with my coaching clients. That as I'm trying to encourage them to think about approaching how they are showing up at work or doing something in a different way. What got them to this point in their career is not the same approach, skills, style that's going to help them to get to the next career. I also find I am using it in so many other places and settings too. For example, just yesterday I was being interviewed about my book, Better Allies, and I referred to that quote again. Basically, I was being asked Why is it even important to be a better ally? And why is it important to create more inclusive workplaces? And I answered that question by emphasizing that the leadership skills and the style and what you're doing every day when you show up at work that made you successful to this point isn't necessarily what's going to make you successful moving forward. Millennials and Generation Z employees are looking for different things in their workplace than previous generations might be looking for. And that talent shortfall I mentioned earlier is real. Tangible. So we need to shift how we are creating our workplaces so that they are truly inclusive so that the success— so that we can be successful moving forward. We can't keep doing the same thing that we've always been doing. So yeah, so what got you here won't get you there.

I love it. Thank you so much for coming on. And the last one that I got for you before we let you go is where can our audience best find you online?

Yeah, so I— my website's KarenCatlin.com. I'm pretty active on Twitter at K-E, Catlin. And then I also am highly active, if people are interested in my book, at Better Allies on Twitter and Instagram, Pinterest, Medium, all the social media channels. And the book site is betterallies.com. And of course, the book's available on Amazon as well.

Perfect. Thank you again for coming on.

Thanks, Tyler Wagner. It was great. Have a great day. The podcast you just heard was made using Anchor. Ever thought about making your own podcast? Anchor makes it really easy for anyone to get started. It's a one-stop shop for recording, hosting, and distributing podcasts. Best of all, it's 100% free. Sign up now at anchor.fm/new. That's anchor.fm/new to get started.