Laura Doyle: The Empowered Wife | The Authors Unite Show #996

All right everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Authors Unite show. Um, today we have a New York Times bestselling author, Laura Doyle, and she is an international relationship expert and the founder of Laura Doyle Relationship Coach training. She was the perfect wife until she actually got married. So I'm pumped for this one. Welcome to the show.

Thanks. Great to be here.

So my first question typically with these interviews is I like to know the origin. So I know you have a book, it's called The Empowered Wife: 6 Surprising Secrets for Attracting Your Husband's Time, Attention, and Affection. Before all this, when you were younger, did you foresee us having this conversation right now at all? Or what did you think you were gonna—

no, no. All I knew was, um, I was, uh, pretty newly married, like in the first 6, 7, 8 years of marriage, and I just wanted my husband to straighten up and be a better husband so that I could be happy, because that's how it works. I was pretty— I thought that's how it works. So I was just giving him helpful instructions on how to be more ambitious and how he could be more romantic and he could like clean up a little better and load the dishwasher better. And anyway, um, he was just avoiding me. He didn't want to be around me for some reason. And so I, I thought, well, I know what to do. I'm going to take him to marriage counseling, then the counselor will fix him, and then I can finally be happy. And, um, that actually didn't work at all. I remember I was on the counselor's couch when I realized I'm either going to spend the rest of my life in an unhappy marriage, a loveless marriage, or I'm going to have to get divorced because he's never going to change. Like, this is, this is it. And we went to counseling for over a year. I remember we spent like $9,000. This was a long time ago. Um, so I felt pretty hopeless. I remember leaving and, um, I thought, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get divorced. I'm going to have to. And the only problem was I was just too embarrassed to get divorced. So I thought, okay, as a last-ditch effort, I'm going to ask women who have long, happy marriages, like who've been married for like an eternity, like 15 years. They've been married that long. They, I mean, maybe they know something. So, and I asked them for their secrets and I thought they were going to say, well, you have to, you have to pick a good one. You got to marry the right person. And they didn't say that. They said things that didn't even make sense to me, really, but I thought, okay, whatever, I've got nothing to lose. So I'm going to experiment with all these suggestions in my marriage. And if it works, I'll keep it. If it doesn't, I'm going to throw it out. And so I started doing that. And I remember it was not that long afterwards that I walked through the door and my husband's face lit up. He was happy to see me again. And that had not been happening. We'd been having wall-to-wall hostility or cold wars where we didn't speak for days. And so I thought, okay, something's going on. You know, something's working here. Uh, and it was, it was very exciting because I felt like I'd, I'd really hit on something that like no one ever mentioned to me before. My grandmothers, my mother, you know, nobody ever told me some of this stuff that these women shared with me. And so I thought, okay, now I know what to do. Now I can, I can make my marriage good. And the new stuff wasn't that hard, but it was new. So, but I had some trouble getting myself to do it consistently. And so I remember after being so hopeful, we had this like big blowup fight in the car one time. And I was like, oh no, you know, here we are again. This is like gonna be hopeless. And I had the idea like, okay, I'm gonna get some of my friends to, that also complain to me about their marriages. I'm gonna get them to do this stuff with me. And maybe if we just do it all together, you know, kind of like working out together, right? You're more likely to do it if somebody's waiting for you at the gym. So, um, so I did. I started a little support group in my living room. There was just 5 of us, and it was so cool because, um, it was working for them too. Like, they were reporting miracles. One woman said, oh, my husband won the sales contest at work and he took us on the most romantic getaway of our lives. And she, you know, they'd been fighting like we'd been fighting. And I thought, okay, we're really on to something here. So, and one of them said, can you write down what we're doing for my cousin in Florida? And, um, and I said, oh yeah, sure, I will. And that became my first book, which debuted on the New York Times bestseller list and was published in 19 languages in 30 countries and accidentally started a worldwide movement of women who practice the 6 intimacy skills, uh, to, to, and kind of put an end to the behaviors that are putting their marriages at risk and instead make them tender and intimate and playful and passionate again.

So, all right, there's a lot I want to dive into here. So first, well, actually, I want to get to this. I want to speak on this last, but a lot of the people that listen to our show, they are authors or aspiring authors, a lot of them. So I'm definitely curious to dive into you know, like having your book translated into that many languages, hitting the New York Times, things like that. But I want to make the audience wait for that a little bit, so we'll do that, we'll do that towards the end.

Anticipation.

So, but for now, with those, with the 6, you said intimacy skills, can we dive into those?

Sure. And absolutely.

Well, and actually, even before that, so that's kind of the solution. What was the problem before that?

Yeah, well, here's the one thing I did get from counseling. Uh, so we were going, and remember, we're there to fix him because he was the bad spouse and I was the perfect wife, I thought. And then she said at one point, she was like, I don't know if you realize you're kind of controlling. I was like, you know, the record's Like, what? We're here for him, not for me. So, but I was like, after a while, I was like, okay, I'm controlling. Okay, I get it. And then I was like, well, what should I do? And she's like, just stop being so controlling. And I was like, okay, like, I didn't know how to do that. Like, it's like, stop thinking about elephants or something, right? Like, how do I stop? This is— fish are always the last to know they're in the ocean, right? We just think, wow, it's pretty wet in here. So I didn't realize just how much I was micromanaging, you know, like what he wore and what he ate. And I'd become like a smother mother. And so, so one of the things that I had to come to grips with, I ended up developing my own world-famous system for relinquishing inappropriate control of your husband. Because I think of it like, in fact, I like the word surrender in a way because which is what we all have to do every day. If you're driving in traffic, you might wish the traffic would move, but you can't make it move. So you can use that time to talk on the phone, use, you know, audiobooks, music you love, or you could just grip the wheel and be like, I wish this traffic would get out of here, right? So surrendering is just making the most of the time. And it's like a surrendered wife just knows she can't control her husband. She doesn't try. Instead, she focuses on her own happiness And that in turn improves the intimacy. So I developed my own world-famous system for relinquishing inappropriate control of my husband. And what I came to realize was that all control is about fear. You know, if I'm not afraid that he's going to wear an outfit that embarrasses me at the party or whatever, right? I don't have to comment on that outfit. Or if I'm not afraid, he's like gonna have high cholesterol or something, right? Then I don't have to comment on that. So it was really a matter of just learning to, in each moment, like, choose my faith. Like, oh, actually, when I fell in love and married this guy, you know, I thought he was handsome and smart and well-dressed, right? So it's like, what happened? Why am I all of a sudden afraid of these things? And it really was about— it was a journey inside, just really becoming my best self instead of acting on that control, but choosing my faith, which was also choosing the intimacy and the connection in the relationship. 'Cause those are opposites, right? So if you want to have intimacy, you have to let go of the control. And if you wanna be in control, gotta let go of that intimacy, it's gonna leave.

Mm-hmm. Well, you know, it's interesting. I think that too, what happens is that sometimes the things that we're like most afraid of because we're so fearful of them, we give them so much of our energy that we actually produce them in reality, right?

So absolutely, Tyler, what you focus on increases.

Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly. So, so that's, um, and then the— and when you surrender, I guess it's kind of more on the side of like what's meant to happen will happen, uh, by surrendering to it in a sense. Now I guess you could still guide a little bit, you know, if you want.

Yeah, I always, I always think about the, uh, that phrase in the Serenity Prayer, right? Like, uh, yeah, it's the acceptance, you know, for things you can't change, but there's also the courage to change the things you can change. Yeah, I think that part gets glossed over a little bit, right? Like, oh, I just have to accept, I just have to, um, you know, suffer or whatever. And it's not so. Sometimes I think The part where you're brave is, that's, that's, it's the scary part, right? Because you, you thought that you're not going to feel fear. You're just going to decide that it's more important to take an action than it is to, to just, yeah, kind of lay back and let things happen.

Totally. So, so the, the 6 intimacy skills then, um, can you elaborate on those a little bit?

Sure, sure. So So, well, the first thing, so once I kind of identified this problem where I was controlling based on my fear, what I started doing was coming up with little cheat phrases, I guess you'd say, that I used to put my heart right, I guess you'd say. It's kind of like the way we teach children to say please and thank you. We want them to develop a grateful heart, right? So it's not just the words. We want them to develop that characteristic. And so, so one of the cheat phrases I developed was whatever you think. It sounds kind of crazy, but it was like whenever. And so I had kind of developed some unhealthy patterns in my marriage where my husband knew, like, if I don't ask her what she wants me to do, I'm going to get in trouble later. Right. So he was not feeling like he could be autonomous and make his own decisions about things until I decided, okay, I'm going to start using this phrase. So it'd be like, hey, you know, is this okay to wear or whatever? It'd be like, oh, whatever you think, you know, that's on your paper. I think of like my paper and his paper, my paper's on my decisions and, you know, my attitude and how I'm spending my time or whatever. And his is on his paper. So anything on his paper is really easy. You know, you just say whatever you think. And then some things, lots of things are on both of our paper, right? So he'd say like, Oh, I don't know if I should take the car in now for the brakes or maybe wait until next week. Right. And he's like handling that for us. Like, I don't really need to micromanage it. So I, you know, again, I might think like, well, those are brakes, buddy. Like, you gotta, you gotta get those fixed. Like, you can't let those ride. But I'd be like, okay, whatever you think, you know, I just trusted him. Even if I was thinking like, oh, I hope he doesn't screw this up. I'll give you an example. One of my students, tells a story of her husband. Well, they'd been— their marriage was in big trouble. They'd been sleeping in separate beds for 6 months. And so she got a hold of this phrase, and it was the very first thing she decided to experiment with in her marriage. Her husband came up to her and said, hey, what do you want me to do with this? We need a new cell phone plan, you know, what do you want me to do? And so she said, oh, whatever you think. And like me, she trained him, like, no, you know, he thought You got to tell me because I don't want to get in trouble later. So he was like, no, what do you mean? What should I do? You got to tell me what to do. And so she said it again. She said, no, you know, whatever you think. And then she added, I trust you. I trust you. So he went away and figured out the cell phone plan. She was afraid he was going to screw it up, but he did fine, right? She married a smart guy. And then he came back over to her and he said, 'You were so nice today.' And they ended up sleeping in the same bed that very night. And she was like, wow, like, that's just one of the cheat phrases. There's like, there's over 20, I think. So she was, she got like a little, and she'd been going to counseling every week to, uh, to complain about her husband, which by the way, nobody ever got happier by complaining about their spouse for an hour a week. That just doesn't work. So, um, so that was like, that was over 20, I was almost 20 years ago, I think. And, uh, she still gets tears in her eyes now when she talks about how tragic it would've been because they were, they were on the brink of divorce and, uh, she would have, she said, you know, lost the love of her life.

It's interesting what the— just because it seems so small, but I could see how that would work. And I also think too, like, passive aggressiveness is like one of the biggest things. So in relationships, what happens, um, and maybe I'm just speaking about my own, I don't know, but like, uh, this could be therapy, we'll see. It's like So, you know, everything's good for like the first 6 months, but then you, you both kind of pick up on things with each other that you don't like. You realize after those 6 months you don't— I don't, I don't know how to word it correctly. Like, you don't love every single little thing, right? Like, there's, there's little things that can annoy you about anybody, it doesn't matter. So, but those little things, they just kind of build up in the background, and then it comes out in like, you know, putting a spoon in the fork cave thing or whatever.

It's just like, how did you do that?

And like, so I think, um, and I don't necessarily know the best approach, but just addressing anything you might be thinking or any issue. But if you're— if you, um, kind of not mask it— I don't like that word, but I'm just using in the sense of like, I trust you— like something like that, I could see You know, just giving me a reminder, but then saying, I trust you. Like, I think I would be like, that's cool. Like, I appreciate the help, you know, and in a good way, rather than it feeling like a motherly thing, like a nagging type thing.

So absolutely. Yeah, I know. I found for me too, and I see this with a lot of my students, you know, we always start out saying what you focus on increases, right? Like what you can kind of create problems, right, without without really trying. And I know for me, a lot of times, if I'm like feeling irritated by my husband, like there's a fork and the spoon, you know, thing in the drawer or whatever, a lot of times that's a pretty good sign that something's up with me. Like I didn't sleep enough, or I just need a break, or like I've been working too much, or— and so to this day, you know, I'm kind of continuously using that as a monitor. Like if he, if I'm like, gosh, he's getting on my very last nerve, right? Cause we're just, I'm a mere mortal woman still. My marriage isn't perfect, but it's pretty, it's pretty great. But so if I find myself thinking like, gosh, you know, why would he do such a thing? It's pretty good sign. Like maybe I need to eat or, you know, or like I, maybe I need to go for a walk or something to delight myself. I call it, you know, I just call it like my frivolous fun. It's time for frivolous fun or a nap. Maybe I'll just march myself into bed and find out if he's really that bad or if I just was tired.

Hangry is a real thing.

It's a real thing. Can be. Can be. Yeah.

And yeah, no, walking. I'm like a cardio person every morning. And I, at least for me, it's just without that walk in the morning, walk/jog thing, it's, I don't know, I don't function as well.

Uh, so I gotta get your wiggles out, right? Just like elementary school. Yeah. Yeah.

No, for real. It's that needs to be it just like, and it is just like that. And, but we still need that self-care as we get older too.

Absolutely. Yeah.

We forget that you still need recess, everybody.

You still need recess. And I think especially for wives and moms, right? When you're, you're so focused on everybody else. A lot of times that can really go missing. It's kind of funny because it's the very first thing when women arrive on our campus, the very first thing we're encouraging them to do is like make a list of 20 things that they love and do at least 3 a day. And it's just like preventative. It's like, um, you know, self-care can be self-control in a way, right? Because if you show up to any situation feeling good and light, like maybe you're just out with your girlfriends and whatever, and you're, and you're feeling filled up, and then you find out like that while your husband was gone, he gave the kids candy for breakfast and they're still wearing their pajamas and watching cartoons or whatever, right? Like, that situation can either be fraught or, or it could just be like, no, you know, dads, you know, they're a little different than moms or whatever. So, um, that's the first thing we ask them to do is really pay attention to their recess time, their self-care. And a lot of times they're like, wait, no, you don't understand, my marriage is really hurting. Like, I've really got big challenges in my marriage. Like, I don't have time for that. I got to get to the stuff that you do to fix things, you know. I'm really— yeah, this is the thing that's good. This is really going to make a big difference. Uh, it feels basic, so they— and they want to skip the basics, right?

But actually, well, that even goes down to like a deeper kind of philosophical view of life, because it is really just the basics. I think that to be happy, if you will. Like, I just, you know, food, water, walk, exer— you know, like what? Those are the kind of things that actually do. And I think we get lost sometimes. It doesn't always have to be like money or things like that, but just anything outside of like a calming walk, like, or listening to an audio. Like, these things do make you happy if you just Continue on and you have a routine. And they're so simple though, and that's why they're overlooked, right? Because it seems, how could a walk make you happier? Well, I don't know, try to walk for 10 miles and see how you feel.

You might—

what I always tell people, whenever I have like a problem, I just go for a walk and it pretty much solves itself.

10 miles? You're a pretty ambitious fitness guy. I'm impressed.

I do like 6 miles every morning. I was just giving an example. There. But like on the weekends, sometimes I'll go way longer because I don't have like anything else that I have to do right after. And they surprisingly, like anything I've been trying to figure out or think through, it is way more effective to just walk and just let it like, I guess, surrender in a sense, than it is to stay in the office until like midnight and try to like figure it out in that environment. So I don't know, that's just what I found works for me.

Yeah, that's a, that's a great example of, yeah, surrender and how self-care can just totally change your whole perspective and your attitude for the better. Yeah, that's exactly, that's exactly what we're trying to do here. Yeah.

So I want to ask you about that. I want to go back to when the marriage, uh, wasn't that good again because I think it's so embarrassing. No, no. Hey, I'm, you know, I'm not married or anything, so, um, so, okay, any stories that you're willing to share from when the marriage— because now that it is good, I think it's okay for us to kind of poke fun at when it wasn't good.

You don't— completely, completely. Yeah, actually, yeah, I'm, yeah, I'm happy to talk about, um You know, when I was the goddess, I call her the goddess of— well, now we talk about, you know, to improve your marriage, one of the things is about showing up as like the goddess of fun and light, like a woman of fun and light, right? Because that's kind of who you're— that's who your husband fell in love with, right? You were happy, you were smiling, and you're never hotter than when you're doing all that. And I was— I talk— I joke about how I became like the goddess of Wikipedia, who just like knew everything and wasn't afraid to tell everybody what she knew. So that was sad. But anyway, well, one of the— one of the stories Um, so one of the things I was terrible at, and I didn't realize it, uh, and I think most women don't realize this, that they maybe don't even know what they desire. Um, and so, uh, this very early on, uh, my husband took me to Hawaii, uh, just a romantic vacation getaway. And I was super excited on the first day because I thought, oh, we're gonna go to the beach, and I can't wait to go to the beach. That sounds really fun. And we got up in the morning, and I said— instead of saying, I want to go to the beach, I said, what did you want to do? And he goes, well, let's go see a volcano. I was like, oh, volcano, OK. But I thought, I don't want to have a conflict here, right? So I'm just going to go— I'll go along with the volcano. We'll go to the beach later. So we're driving in the rental car for a long time. You don't see the volcano for a long time. There's like little molten rocks on the side of the road or whatever. And I started to get, you know, I started like being unhappy that I was in this car instead of at the beach. And he realizes something's wrong. He's like, you know, is everything okay? Is something wrong? You know, that is when I let him have it. I was like, did you think this would be fun? Because I don't think it's funny. I think it's stupid. You didn't even ask me. I wanted to go to the beach. I didn't want to be in this car. You know, so he saw a volcano. All right, poor guy, right? All he knew is he took took me to Hawaii. So, and, you know, even after I behaved so badly, he took me to the beach. He just wanted me to be happy. So it's kind of a sad story. You know, what is it Catherine Arid said? If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to be a horrible warning, right? So that's, that's my horrible warning story about how I didn't know how to express my desires. And now I know how to express my desires in a way that inspires my husband, that kind of triggers his hero gene so that I get such a better response. So I have like a little formula that we teach for that.

I wanna know what that formula is 'cause it's funny, one of my friends down here, she actually, it reminded me of this. She posted, she's pretty big on like LinkedIn and she posts like skits on there. And she posted a skit of her and it's like her, it's somebody who works for her. So it's not her real boyfriend, but in the skit it's her boyfriend. And she's like, where do you want to go to dinner? And then he gives an answer. And then she's like, nah, I don't— like, she's like, I want you to choose. Like, I want you to pick dinner. And so where do you want to go? And then he lays out like 3, 4 places.

She doesn't like any of them.

Yeah, she's like, no, I don't want to go there. I don't want to go there. And then somehow she like subtly says like where she like wants to go. And then he's like, I'm good with that. Let's just go there. And she's just like, nice. Like, finally, that's, that's what I wanted to do, like, to begin with. So I think it's, it's funny that that's the way that it works sometimes. It's like you, um, and I'm just, I'm not trying to say like every guy and girl is like this, but in this scenario, right, like you knew you wanted to go to the beach. And, um, and let's just say, I don't know your husband, but let's just say if it was me, I'm so like, I can be happy doing anything or nothing.

Yes.

So like, volcano sounds cool, but if you were like dead set on the beach, I would have been like, yeah, let's do the beach. Like, all right, just as happy, no problem, right?

And you'd want to make your— you'd want to make your wife happy or your girlfriend happy too, right? That'd be like a priority.

Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah. And both, um, just meaning though that— and again, I don't think it's every guy or girls like this, but for me, I, I, yeah, I feel like it would be more, it would be her happiness. And then me just knowing myself enough that truly I'd be happy at pretty much any restaurant as long as there's something, you know, for me to eat. I just like food in general, you know. So it's easy to make.

You're so picky, Tyler. Yeah, that's right. That's right.

Yeah, I just mean, if you have a preference, please tell me because I—

Right. Yeah, no, I think this is such a great point you're bringing out because I mean, it's not that every— everybody's like that, but I think there's— there is kind of a— we sort of see that. Um, well, one thing I know is that it's super important for, um, most men, I'll say, to— that their wife or girlfriend is happy, right? So if they know what she wants, that becomes like the North Star. Like, okay, we've got to find Mexican food or whatever, right? Like, she wants a Mexican, we gotta— we gotta find one. Oh, she wants to sit in a booth. We've got to get a booth, right? Like that can kind of become the mission. And so it's right.

Totally. Yeah.

Yeah. So it's sad if you aren't saying what you want because maybe you don't know what you want, or maybe you're like, I mean, I still struggle with this where sometimes I'll know what I want and I just feel guilty wanting it. I just think, oh, that's kind of indulgent. Like, I don't really need that. Like, I'll give you an example. For like the past decade, I've been saying, oh, I want to have a pool, right? We don't have a pool. Well, we didn't have a pool, but I kind of kept the desire at arm's length. I remember even thinking like, oh, if we had kids, then I could say I want a pool for the kids. Like, I wouldn't have to just own that I would just like a pool, right? I could like put it on them instead of owning it myself. So I kept that desire like out here, and like there was just nothing stopping me except for me. And so finally when I was like, you know what, I really I really do want a pool. Well, there's a pool-shaped hole dug in my backyard right now. We're getting a pool. So it was kind of cool. Like, just, you know, it was, it was interesting to see yet again, right? There's, there's always new levels of this video game I'm playing, I feel like, which really, I thought it was about saving my marriage, but it turns out it's kind of a lot about becoming my best self.

Mm-hmm. Well, and I think too, which I kind of think is, is somewhat what you're talking about is like the codependency stuff. So it's like your happiness, and I mean overall, right? Because, um, I've found that in my own relationships as well where I don't know how it happens, but it's just like you— I think you like, you get so involved in each other that you, you start to kind of like claim your happiness as the other's responsibility and vice versa. And it must be like, again, I think it, at least for me, I've only gotten to the honeymoon phase of 6 months or so. So I don't know, but it seems to me like that's what happens is it just, it's this love's there and it moves so fast and then it gets like too much, too quick or something.

Um, so, um, I'm not asking for a, uh, like, uh, you to consult me right now, but I'm just saying I was just thinking like, gosh, you seem like you'd be, you know, great boyfriend, great husband, actually, just from what you were saying earlier. Like, oh, I would just take her to the beach because that's like— because I can be happy anywhere, right? I just like food. I'll take her to any restaurant.

In my past relationships, I don't know, but like I've learned. So it's like, as we're talking, it's just, you know, things from the past are coming up and I'm like, I'm able to now kind of pinpoint what I think went wrong based off of our conversation right now. So if anything, it was helpful.

So yeah, it was interesting too, because I think one of the things that can really be so damaging to a relationship, and I think so few women are aware of this, and you'll probably resonate with this really quickly because, and I think I like to think of things in terms of yin and yang in a way, right? Because we talk about like, oh, not all men are this way, not all women are this way. But in the Eastern philosophy, there's this yin and yang where you have the yin yin is considered the feminine, but it's the part that can receive, soft. And then the yang is maybe like in an object, like let's take a coffee cup. The yang is the structure of the— it would be like the ceramic of a coffee, you know, in the handle or whatever. And the yin would be the part that can receive the coffee. And if you think about a coffee cup that didn't have the ability to receive coffee, it would have no purpose. Right? So it's pretty important to kind of have both. And so I think, uh, I think one of the things that, um, I know for me, like, I was raised to be like super independent. Don't depend on— don't have to depend on a man. You don't want to do that because, um, you know, you got to have your education, your career, and be accomplished in that regard. And, and I did all that, so that was great. But, um, but now, you know, there was also this other goal I had at home, which was just to have him tell me I'm beautiful and special and wonderful and, you know, like stroke my hair or whatever, hold my hand. And it's a totally different goal than like maybe the goals at work where I'm trying to improve the bottom line or get a promotion or raise or whatever, right? So totally different goals requires different skills. And one of the skills that I was really lacking and didn't realize was the skill of receiving, So it's a yin skill where my husband, like, I would wake up in the morning and he'd go, oh, you look so beautiful. And I would go, no, don't look at me. My hair is like a mess or whatever. You know, I'm not wearing makeup, whatever. I would reject that compliment. And I didn't realize I had so much power to either kind of keep the flow, the nice flow going, or just really put the kibosh on it. Right. I had so much power over the culture in my relationship by either receiving or not receiving, not just compliments, but gifts, help, special treatment, apologies, right? And so if I am not being a good receiver, I was all focused on being independent and pulling my own weight, and I can carry heavy things too. Well, not as heavy as my husband can carry, let me tell you. And, um, I still would prefer that he kill the scary spiders for me. And he's like totally happy to do that. And then, and I love it, right? Feels, feels nice. So I've gotten a lot better at receiving graciously compliments, gifts, help, you know, things like that.

I think receiving is a problem. I think it even might be a bigger problem in general than giving.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes, it is. One of my books is called What's it called? Well, the subtitle is Why It's Better to Receive Than to Give. Because, yeah, I think you make a good point. Yeah.

Yeah. Because, you know, I can even think of times where it did that exact scenario, like in the morning, like complimenting the girlfriend at the time and like, but her kind of rejecting the compliment because I guess maybe she didn't feel pretty in that moment. But the fact that kind of is not what I said though, you know, like what I, I think you look good, but if you don't, that's fine.

But like, she's kind of like calling you a liar or something too, right? She's kind of like, maybe you've got bad judgment or bad eyesight or something, right? It's like the whole thing is really counter to, right? You could just take, you could just go, yeah. I mean, you're going to feel, I do at least a little squishy inside, right? If you get a compliment that doesn't feel true, right? So it's vulnerable. It's a little vulnerable.

It is. But I also think though, is like, why would I— why would I make that up at that time, you know?

You know what I mean? Like, you're just mean like that. Yeah, it's kind of— so I mean, we're laughing about it right now, but it actually could really cause— it can really cause some stress because I think in a way it's like that coffee cup thing, right? Like, where's your purpose if you aren't able to make her feel good with a sincere compliment, right?

That— and that's where it comes full circle, is then you can get in your head and you can think, oh, maybe she's actually not into me right now, so she's using that as an excuse. And then the whole passive-aggressive thing builds, and then it's just— it's like insecurities or something, like on, I guess, both ends, and then it leads to like arguing. And it's interesting. I don't know. Yeah, relationships are interesting.

I think that's a really good assessment though of how it can kind of start a downward spiral, just because, um, if she's not trained or practiced in receiving graciously. Yeah, but there's a— there's another even bigger, uh, thing that I was kind of astonished by in relationships that is, it still seems weird to me. Like I've learned, I've been studying it for 20 years, but I still, like, I'll be writing about it. I'm like, that is so weird. Like my female brain can't really get it. But, and that is the concept of respect. Like what does respect look like to men? And the reason I think it's kind of tricky is 'cause I think a lot of women are raised to hearing like, oh yeah, men need respect or, you know, you should respect your husband or whatever. And I know for me, I was like, if you would ask me early on, I'd be like, I totally respect my husband. Like, I don't leave a mess, or I tell him where I am, or, you know, I reheat his dinner if he comes home late or whatever. And like, none of that has anything to do with what most men consider respect. Because at the same time, I would like, he'd be maybe talking about work. And I was like, well, did you think of telling him that, you know, he should, you know, blah, blah, blah, right? Like, I'm giving him suggestions about how he should handle his work. Which in the male mind is like me second-guessing him. I'm not like trusting his thinking. I'm like being devil's advocate and thinking that's useful or whatever. And really, like, you know, maybe he just wants to be heard, but he for sure wants me to trust that he knows how to handle himself at work, right? Or how to handle situations that might affect his beau, things like that, where I was like always weighing in with my little opinions. Which were very important to me.

I think, yeah, I think it's like how you say it, right? So even the way that you said— I, I'm having like just flashbacks, it's awesome. So it's like, did you ever think like the way that that would have come off to me was like you said, of like almost like questioning my ability to do what I do or something? But on the other side, the flip coin, and maybe I could be different than most men in this regard, but I love feedback because I love just getting better, learning and growth.

Sure.

My favorite thing. So I think that's something in my next girlfriend that I'm very much looking for. But I would maybe want it more addressed in a way of like, say it's the end of the day and I worked all day and the question of like, hey, are you open to some feedback so you can learn from it? Now, I don't know if a girl would ever ask that, but if they did, then I could be like, actually I am, but not right now because of my like attention span. I'm just tired. But like this weekend on our walk or something, I would actually love for you to just like, you can even rip into me in a way, in a constructive criticism way, because I want to learn, you know?

So I have no, I totally admire, of course you want to grow and you want to improve and you want to get better. I think the thing, I think the big distinction here, that the thing that can go missing pretty fast in that conversation, the thing that I consider to be the precious now in my relationship is emotional safety. If the emotional safety is not there, nobody's learning, first of all, right? There's just like defensiveness and people aren't at their best when they're defensive. And if there is a ton of emotional safety, You know, like, that's one of the things I'll say now. Like, I'll give you an example. I was— so we were out, my husband took me to this really nice restaurant. It was like Friday night or Saturday night or something. And so the place is jumping, the waiters are flying, the bar is all, you know, laughter's coming out and everybody's happy. And we're just having a nice conversation, really nice time. And then I said something, he was talking about work. And I said something kind of disparaging about one of his clients, which was my way of saying like, don't give that client preferential treatment. Like you should, right? So I'm totally on his paper, like trying to control again, like the bad old day. And all of a sudden, like, it feels like the music stops, the waiters stop, the bar shuts down. Like, and then my husband gets this look on his face, like, you know? And I was like, oh, I didn't really want to be accountable at that moment. So I was like, Oh, oh, was that disrespectful? And he goes, yeah. And I was like, oh. And then I was able to like kind of get myself over into the accountability world where I like to live, because this is where all my power feels like it is. And I said, oh, I apologize for being disrespectful just now when I criticized your client. And then like, look on his face was like, Okay, cool, you know, the music starts back up and the waitress is playing and the laughter starts back and our good time is back, right? Instead of like having a tense night for the rest, you know, like having it just go south for the rest of the night like it used to in the bad old days, like our good evening was, you know, it just kind of went by like that. It's quick. And I just remember like when I first considered using a phrase like, I apologize for being disrespectful, I was like, no way, like I'm not gonna just like feed his ego or what. Like, why should I— why should I respect him? He's got to earn my respect or whatever. Like I said, I had all these like objections to it and it just felt like sawdust coming out of my mouth. But now I just feel like it's, uh, it feels like honey coming out of my mouth now because it puts me— it can put things right and it can— I mean, I want to be a respectful wife. I don't want to show up as like complaining, critical shrew. That's— she's not that fun to be around. I don't really miss her. So it kind of helps me be my better self to have a, to have a phrase like that in my back pocket.

So yeah, this is one of the funnest ones so far. So I appreciate you coming. I do, just for time's sake, I want to make sure anything, is there anything you can share on, like, was there a marketing strategy behind?

Oh, sure.

Yeah.

So anything.

A lot of our audience is that, and like, you know, New York Times bestselling author is pretty much, it's the title that, you know, a lot of authors really desire. So anything you're willing to share on it, I think our audience would just, you know—

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I think for me, some of the biggest takeaways from the experience I had, I was, you know, I was a first-time author when I hit the New York Times bestseller list and got published in all those languages. And one of the things that happened And that I really think is just amazing and wonderful and kind of hard to recreate in some ways even is I was in my own little world when I wrote that book, but I was super passionate. Like, I felt like I'd really hit on something that helped me so much and it was helping these women in my living room. It's like I just had a ton of passion and almost like I felt like a moral obligation to get this information to as many women as I could to like really I felt called to be on a mission to end world divorce. So I think there was a lot of that organically happening. And because of that, I named my book in a weird way because I was in my own little world. It was called The Surrendered Wife. The Surrendered Wife. So people lost their minds about that title. I thought it was beautiful. I'm like, Surrendered Wife. I kind of explained what it means, but, and it became very, very controversial. And so I got to go on, and let me just say, I was also self-published. My husband helped me publish the book, the very first one. And so I was just going around and I called the LA Times and just said, hey, I have this little support group in my living room. Maybe you'd be interested in doing a story. I think this is kind of amazing. And they did. They came out and did a story. And then we sold out of all of our copies, my little self-published run of it. And that's— and then my husband was like, you know, this is— we've got a tiger by the tail. We've got to get someone to help us. And so we approached agents. We just got like the list of 10 agents and wrote to 10 of them, and only one of them contacted us back. And he took it to 10 publishers, and only one of them, you know, we got 9 rejections and only one okay. And some people even said they criticized my agent and said you shouldn't be involved with this book because of that title. It's so backwards and old-fashioned. So, um, But when it came out, there was just tremendous interest in it because of the controversy. So the controversy can help you sell, but I think what really made the difference was that the content inside— yeah, I mean, people love it. People really find it valuable. So even though it had a controversial title, the substance was really there.

Yeah, no, I love— so that's perfect because it kind of goes with what I, what I believe for, for books. So first, the controversy thing makes complete sense. And then also the reason I think most authors, like, their books don't get to the level of success that they had hoped is because the book never gets in enough people's hands to begin with for word of mouth to really have a chance. So, you know, Obviously the title built some controversy. Maybe that was kind of like, as Seth Godin would say, like the purple cow, like the head turner. Um, then when they read it, obviously if the content isn't good, you know, good marketing in the beginning, well, that just, that just kind of kills it faster, honestly. But either way, then enough people got it, thousands, tens of thousands, and then they told— it was remarkable enough. Another Seth Godin thing: what's remarkable? It's something worth remarking upon. And they told their friends and then, you know, I have no idea where it's at today, but I'm assuming it's— it made a mark.

Let's say it really did. It still— it continues to be a perpetual seller. Yeah. And we're celebrating our 20th year of Ending World Divorce. Yeah. And can I just quickly tell you the flip side of this where— so my most recent book is called The Empowered Wife. Now that's not the original title. I actually tried to replicate the Surrendered Wife controversy with this more recent book by naming it first Kill All the Marriage Counselors, which I thought was hilarious. Like what a funny joke, right? Uh, cause I'd had a kind of a bad experience with marriage counselors. And a lot of the students that come to our campus also found marriage counseling, either it didn't work or it made things worse. So I'm like, this is hilarious. I'm going to call it this. Well, it really did not resonate. My target audience. They didn't get the joke. They didn't think I was as funny as I thought I was. And I ended up going to the publisher and saying, I'd really love to change the title to The Empowered Wife. And luckily they agreed and the sales more than doubled from just changing the name of the book. So, um, so even though I'm saying, you know, controversy really does sell, um, you have to get it right. And I wasn't able to replicate that formula the second time. I'm much happier with my new title, which is not that controversial at all.

Yeah, no, it's not, but it's interesting. Well, and I think too, I mean, you probably as an author, because of the success of the first book, like you did kind of already have somewhat of an audience, right?

I do. I have a pretty big platform these days. Yeah, very big. Yeah.

Um, but yeah, that's interesting. So was it even, can you say, was a formula or Because if we can't—

Yeah.

Like, if you do another book, are you going to try the controversial route again, or?

No, I don't think I would. Because, well, and I was also trying to be funny. So maybe I'm just not that funny. My husband might be the funny one, right? So I think when you have an important message you're trying to get out, you're always— reviewing your wording. Like, what— how is this messaging landing? You're always kind of— I'm always like testing my audience. I'm always changing up my marketing messaging and just trying to figure out how can I really best serve. And I think in some ways my message is, um, oh, uh, I mean, why, why is what I'm teaching a secret? It really is like I have all these secrets that women don't know, right? That's the definition of a secret. Most people don't know it. And yet it's super effective. And we have a lot of success stories and tens of thousands of women have been able to fix their marriages with what I teach. So it's like, why is it a secret? Well, I think it's because in some ways it's hard to swallow and it's so counter to conventional wisdom. You hear a lot of conventional wisdom about, like there's one right now making the rounds called, What is it? Radical Honesty? I think I'm getting it wrong. But anyway, it's something like that. It's like, oh yeah, something— go ahead, say it.

What is it? That is a book. I think it's called Radical or Radical Acceptance or Radical Honesty. I think Cara Brock wrote a book called Radical Acceptance.

OK, Radical Acceptance. That one I like better. But this is Radical Honesty, something like that. It's really just about like in every moment, like if the fork is in the spoon drawer, you're like, hey. You know, this is really bothering me, the fork is in the spoon drawer. It's like, that's terrible advice. Like, that is not really— that is not going to serve. I mean, in my experience, that did not serve my relationship. There's so many better things I could be focused on in that moment. So, um, so I, I guess I feel like some of what I'm teaching is the, the messaging is like the most challenging part. And then once people get inside and they go, oh, you know, like, that's when the real magic happens. And, um, to paraphrase Thomas Wolfe, miracles not only happen, they happen all the time. Uh, but that's always my challenge as an author and a, and a speaker and someone who offers programs and coaching and teaches women how to become relationship coaches is how do I get the messaging right so that they can the most quickly absorb it? It's sort of like, uh, that StoryBrand, right? He talks about like the race is to have clarity of message, the people who are— the businesses that can get the message across fastest are going to win. And I feel like that's the race I'm always trying to run too.

Well, look, thank you for coming on the show. It was amazing. I want to leave the floor to you. If there's anything that we didn't cover that you want to share, please do. And then also, you know, let people know website, social media, where they can get the book or books.

Sure.

Sure.

So I don't have anything for your male listeners, Tyler Wagner Wagner. I'm really sorry about that. But what I have for the female listeners is really fun. It's called the Adored Wife Roadmap, and it's free. And you can go to my website at lauradoyle.org and download that right now. And it lays out those, uh, the 6 steps to, um, becoming an adored wife, really. And also the 3 mistakes that most women are making trying to get their husbands Time, Attention, and Affection, and Instructions for How to Fix That. So, uh, so yeah, I invite, uh, the female listeners to download that, and, uh, the male listeners can just, uh, you know, slip that URL to their girlfriends or wives.

That's a deal. Thank you again. I really appreciate you coming on.

It's been a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

¡Gracias!