Liz Morrow & Ariel Curry: HUNGRY AUTHORS | The Tyler Wagner Show #1093

All right everyone, welcome back to another episode. Uh, today we have two guests, so this is a fun dynamic. We have Ariel Curry and Liz Morrow with us, so welcome to the show.

Thanks.

Of course, that was like perfectly in sync. That was sweet.

Um, we're very in tune.

Yes, for sure. Um, so yeah, uh, first thing, can you both just tell us a little bit more about yourselves and what you both do?

Sure, I can jump in. Uh, I'm Ariel Curry. I am a former acquisitions editor. I left my job a couple years ago to kind of go freelance. I started off, um, doing freelance editing, and then that kind of transitioned into like book proposal writing and ghostwriting. And so now I'm doing a lot of that with some coaching and generally just helping authors figure out their books.

I'm Liz Morrow. I am a ghostwriter. I ghost full manuscripts and book proposals for entrepreneurs, thought leaders, business owners. Um, yeah, primarily right in the prescriptive nonfiction and memoir genres. Um, and then together Ariel and I run a company called Hungry Authors that consists of a podcast a forthcoming book next year and, um, teach courses and, um, do just a lot of education around helping people get their books out into the world.

I love it. And I was a guest on that podcast, big fan. So if you haven't, uh, listened to it, check out— and I mean, it's on all the platforms, right? Apple, everything. It's called The Hungry Authors.

Yeah, it's called Hungry Authors.

Okay, no, the— okay, just Hungry Author. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For all the listeners, check that out as well. So perfect. So this is actually like, you both are perfect because my audience is mostly aspiring authors. So these are two people that can help you a lot with that. So listen very closely. My, I guess my first question is like, I, and I start off with this a lot, and just to make sure things are easier, I guess maybe Ariel, if you want to answer first every time, and then we'll go over to you just to like is going to answer. But so when you were like 14, 15, did you think you would be where you're at now, like career-wise, like, like in any way, shape, or form? Or what was the plan? I'm just curious, like, how close were you to what you visualized or thought?

Yeah, definitely did not see myself writing books, or at least not having an actual contract and kind of moving forward in this direction. I wanted that to be my reality, but honestly, I didn't think it was realistic. I thought, that's just a pipe dream. There's no way that something like that is gonna ever happen. Uh, when I was 14, 15— I, well, 15— I was a waitress at Denny's. And so the dream of being an author was a very long ways away at that point. I was just a kid who loved reading, and I was like, it'd be cool to, you know, work with books, but I had no idea how I was actually going to make that happen.

That's awesome. I love Denny's, by the way. Sorry, go ahead.

I don't. I do not love it after that experience.

On the customer side, it's good, but I can imagine working there maybe is not the— I don't know, it's probably not the funnest thing in the world, but go ahead.

That's funny. Yeah, or no, I didn't think, um, I would be a writer for a living, or certainly like have my own book coming out when I was 14 or 15. Very similar to Ariel, like, I probably would have told you that that's what I wanted to do or that that was like a dream of mine, but it felt very much like a pipe dream. I just loved reading and writing. English was, you know, my best subject, just sort of that kind of thing. But there's not really a pipeline to being a writer, you know? It's not like, you know, you go to medical school and then you're a doctor. I mean, obviously you study and you pass, but for so many careers, there's kind of a pipeline. You major in a thing, you pass some exam, and then you're the thing. And for being a writer, I just didn't, you know, my family was super supportive and amazing, but they're kind of like, you know, that's not like, how do you do that? That's not really a safe way, you know, major in something normal and, you know, go on to have a normal job. And so like, yeah, I just sort of did that for a while and floundered around between trying to figure out what I was supposed to do until eventually like I ended up being a writer anyway. And so, um, yeah, it's definitely a dream come true. Um, but it's hard because there's not really like a direct path. Everyone comes to this kind of differently. And when people ask, like, how do you become a writer? You're like, I don't know, it's different for everyone.

Yeah, I think it's kind of— it's almost similar to like— or maybe it's similar to almost any artistic endeavor. Like, if you think about, uh, I don't know, I watch a lot of comedians and stuff Like, and they always say, a lot of like famous comedians always say there really is not like a direct path. Like, you just, you go to open mics and you just keep trying and trying, and then eventually enough people like you and you build a following, and then people pay for tickets. So it's kind of like similar with books, I think. Like, I don't know, eventually your writing gets good enough and enough people like it and you market it enough, and maybe it ends up working out. You know, I don't know. It's, um, but it's—

yeah, exactly. Well, and like, you know, this came up a little bit, um, when you were on our podcast, or even, you know, in the conversation we had after, off mic too, about how great you are at networking and reaching out to people. Because one of the things that comes up a lot when people ask how to get into, you know, freelance writing, ghostwriting, you know, their own, like, writing under their own name Um, there's like all kinds of different paths you could take, but one of the things that is really important, especially if you want to write, like get published in traditional book, like publishers, or, um, or, you know, work with highly visible platform people, is just finding, like connecting with one or two people with clout that will back you, you know. Like, that makes a huge difference, and it can take a long time, but like just like circling, like connecting with enough people, circle, like, like just making the rounds enough, as many times as it takes to find somebody, even doing it for free, like to, but finding enough people and enough people with recognizable names or clout with other people to say, my friend, um, Pollyanna Reed calls these sponsors. Like before you have any kind of, you know, real reputation of your own, you need somebody with a reputation to sponsor you. I mean, this is just basically an endorsement, but getting one or two people to say like, yes, this person is legit. And then you can just plaster it everywhere on your resume, on your website. When you email people for work, you say, hey, look, this cool person said this about me, you know, that sort of thing. And I don't think people think about that. You have to be good, you have to be talented, you have to meet deadlines, all that kind of stuff. But beyond that, you also just have to get like, connect with one or two of the right people, and that can take time.

But yeah, no, I agree completely. And I think actually, and maybe you both have experienced this too, but a lot of times with our clients, they'll be getting like close to the finish of the publishing of their book. And then the last thing they think of, and it's actually something I've told my team we want to start bringing up earlier in the process, is they think of, oh, we need endorsements. And then that'll actually like add another 6 months, right? Because it takes time to get like really good endorsements. You know, it's a lot of following up, like convincing in a sense. But To go along with what you said, like say you write a business book and like Mark Cuban were to endorse it, book's probably going to do a little better if you have it. It's worth a 6-month wait. Totally.

Yeah, definitely.

Do your authors try to get— is that like something your authors try to do a lot, getting endorsements?

Yeah.

I mean, that's the nice thing about the proposal process. So Liz and I both kind of walk authors through the proposal process. And part of that process is kind of a brainstorm of who am I going to ask to endorse this book. And even asking some of those people in advance, especially if you know them really well, like, hey, will you write a little something that I can include in my proposal? Even that's been a tactic that, you know, we use for our own proposal and use for client proposals. That can work really well. But that's the nice thing about doing the proposal is it kind of gets you thinking about all of that very, very early. And then I, you know, if I'm working with an author editing their manuscript or something, I start to tell them that, you know, after after you've got that first draft done, like, you should be thinking about endorsements and sending it out as soon as it's like ready to go to copy editing. You're going to want to send it to folks to start getting their endorsements because like you said, it can take a while and people can't just really drop their lives to like read your 60,000-word book. So you want to be like staying in touch with them, keeping them updated on like, here's when I plan to have my manuscript done. You know, all of those things because it's, you know, you're trying to keep a lot of plates spinning.

100%. There's a lot of different variables. And that's what I was telling my team. And you guys obviously are already doing it, but like, there is so many different things you can do with a book. So having that a part of the process is a great idea rather than right when we're about to hit publish, oh, I want endorsements. Now we got to move the launch back 6 months. So you're guys a little better than ours. But question, I feel like you both are perfect to ask this question to. And I, our audience, I think would like to know the answer is how do you, like, how would somebody know what type of publishing to go with? Like self, hybrid, or traditional? What do they need to ask themselves or discover about what they want to decide which is best for them?

Yeah, I mean, it definitely depends on their goals. Uh, if they are wanting this book to be read by, you know, a lot of people, which I would say, you know, safely is the majority of authors, you know, they want their book to be read as widely as possible, that usually makes traditional publishing a pretty attractive option because traditional publishing has a pretty big distribution network. But that has to be kind of balanced with other goals, like how much money do you want to make from your book realistically, how much of the, you know, What copyright do you want to maintain? You know, what do you— what flexibility and creative control do you want to have in the book process? There's a lot of different factors that go into it. And what, you know, how you feel about each of these things might help you decide kind of which path is the right one to take. Liz, do you want to add to that?

Sure. Yeah, that's everything Ariel said is totally right. Yeah, it all comes down to goals. And I think it's really okay and people should just admit if you're after New York Times Bestseller, like if you just want to be able to put New York Times Bestselling Author like in front of your name, and don't we all, then like go for traditional publishing. That's usually where it's at. Like that's, there's clout attached to that. A lot of people, that's what they want. That's the goal. Like having that title would change things for them or their business or just be a certain goal that they have in their life. But like Ariel said, for a lot of people, and not that you can't self or hybrid publish and not become New York Times bestselling author, just to be clear about that, there are, you know, self-published and hybrid published books that do end up on those lists. They just, and we don't know the algorithm behind it all, but it is like normally higher, and they're not— a higher chance of doing it when you're traditionally published. And, you know, they just look, look at those books more. But, um, but yeah, I mean, there's just— for a lot of people, um, self and hybrid publishing makes a lot more sense. Like, they just want to do it faster. Like Ariel said, you want to have more control, you want to get higher percentage of your royalties, especially, um, I mean, whether you have a platform or not, but, but especially if you have a platform, you've got a big list and you know those people are going to buy it anyway. Like, why, you know, then keep as many royalties, as much of your royalties as you can, you know, as much of your profits. Like, why split that with a traditional publisher, um, if, you know, if that's, if, if that's your goal. Um, definitely. Yeah. And there's, you know, I don't know, it's just, it's changing so much because there even used to be— a lot of people think it comes down to quality. They're like, well, if you just sell for hybrid publish, it's not as quality because it hasn't been through like the process of traditional publishing. And I'm sure there are cases where that's the truth, but like there are so many amazing hybrid publishers these days, and you can hire amazing— well, some sometimes even have, have editors in-house that will work with you. But also like you can get an amazing edit from freelance editors and get just as good of an edit as you would at like Penguin Random House. Um, so, you know, there's just— when it— quality, that is the main thing that a lot of people are concerned about. And there's no reason that, um, that a hybrid published book has to be any lower quality than a traditionally published book. Usually it comes down to clout and distribution and money. Yeah.

What, what goes into, um— because I know, I think you both help authors with this, um— what goes into like a good proposal like to land a traditional deal? Like, what are the components? And then after that, just like a kind of secondary question adding on to that is, even after you answer that, would you recommend an author ever attempt to do that on their own or just like kind of bite the bullet and just accept the fact that they're going to need some help putting it together? Like, what's realistic, I guess, is the question on it.

That's a great question. Both, both questions are good questions. So what goes into a proposal, uh, is several things. I mean, it's really a business plan. Like, you, you kind of have to approach the process like you're gonna pitch a business to these people and hope that they decide to invest in your business. That's really what it is. Acquisitions editors are investors, and they, you know, you're hoping to convince them that your idea is going to make a great investment. So the way that you convince them of that is you write this amazing, fantastic, like 50-page book proposal document, and it includes things like information about the project itself, an overview, uh, information about the audience, the features and benefits of the book for that audience. And by the way, this is nonfiction because Liz and I primarily focus on nonfiction. So fiction proposals, you are much simpler. You honestly don't even need a full proposal for fiction. But nonfiction, you've got, you know, information about the project itself, you've got, um, positioning— so like, how does this book compare to other books in the same genre and in the same kind of categories? Uh, you've got the author's platform, which weighs pretty heavily, and a promotion plan. So all of those things— I mean, by the time it's all said and done, plus, you know, a table of contents and sample materials too. By the time it's all said and done, that is like 50 or more pages. And if you don't— to kind of get at your second question— if you've never written a document like that before, it's really hard to get into that mindset because you're not writing the actual book, you're writing about the book that you want to write, and you're writing a business justification for the book that you want to write. And most authors who are, you know, wonderfully creative. They are not necessarily always, you know, amazing marketers. They're not thinking of it like, how do I convince a business to invest in my idea? So I do find that a lot of authors have a hard time making that switch. But I mean, there's a lot of great resources out there too.

So yeah, I was just like, you could try it, hire somebody necessarily, but I would definitely learn from somebody. Yes, you know, like take a course. Don't just like Google book proposal and like use a template that you find for free online. Um, but I would definitely go learn from somebody because, because agents and acquisitions editors look at these all day long, they can spot one that is amateur. So you don't have to hire somebody like me or Ariel, but I would definitely learn from somebody, like either get there to do a consultation or buy a course or something something like that.

Yeah, I think, I mean, based on what you both just said there, and I, I don't know, I, I'm curious what you guys think of this. How I would summarize at least the second question I asked is like, if you have the budget and it's something you really want, I would hire. And again, I guess it, I mean, I would recommend you two obviously, but I'm just saying, I guess it doesn't technically have to be you two, but I would hire somebody because like, I mean, What's more important than— I mean, there's a lot of important things in the process of creating and marketing a book, but this is like at least the first most important thing, right? Like you need to get the acceptance if you want traditional publishing. Without this step, it doesn't really work. I mean, yeah. So I don't know, the budget's there. I think it's a no-brainer. If you're on a tight budget, then maybe it's the course option or something. But if you have the money, I think it's— you should definitely do it. Yeah, you said 50+ pages, dude. I would never do that myself. Yeah, that sucks. I would totally hire somebody.

I think a lot of people tell you, like, obviously it's important for getting an agent and then getting a book deal, but a lot happens in this process creatively. And, um, you know, you refine your big idea, you actually plan out what your book is about. I mean, even people who don't go on to traditionally publish Creating a book proposal is so important just for the planning of the book, the nailing the big idea to figure— no matter how you decide to publish, you have to nail your big idea. You have to know how it fits into the market. You have to know how you're going to market it. You have to have a promotional plan. You have to know how to talk about it. You know, like, all of this is really important and rigorous, whether you're doing the actual, like, typing on the keypad or not. It's um, it's important foundational work, and doing the book proposal, um, just sort of forces that kind of work. And so, um, yeah, it's important no matter what, um, but it's obviously getting an agent and a book deal.

Yeah, I mean, someone's going to be investing in this book. It's either going to be a traditional publisher or it's going to be you. So if you are investing in it yourself, you're going to need that plan to help the book succeed just as much as a publisher would.

Exactly. And I think, and it's interesting, sometimes it's like the smallest thing or whatever makes the biggest difference. Like, the one thing you said there that I never— and I've been in the industry 12 years, I've literally more on the self-publishing side for my own defense, I guess. But I never looked at it as they are an investor. And that mindset shift is actually huge because obviously if you're pitching a business or something, it's an investor and like I'm very aware of that, but I've never thought of that in the book world as truthfully though, that is how you gotta view it. You are, cuz they're putting the money on the line on the upfront. So you need to convince them that it's gonna be a good investment.

Exactly.

I don't know. So it, it kind of changes.

You don't get paid until they make their money back. So it's a literal investment. Yeah.

Got it. Got it. Interesting. Yeah, I never— I really didn't think about it that way. What is the— so, and maybe it's up to you if you want to share your prices or not, but I'm just curious because I don't know, like, what would be like— is there an average kind of cost for something like this? I mean, proposal help?

I offer a few different options to people. Yeah. And obviously the, you know, for different price points. So like Okay. If you want to write the book proposal yourself and have me edit it, that's gonna be a much lower price than say me just ghostwriting the whole thing for you. And even just ghostwriting the whole thing, that's, you know, it's still gonna require us meeting together several times to give me a good idea of what you're hoping to accomplish. And I'm gonna ask you all the hard questions, but then I'm gonna take all of our conversations and go actually create the document myself. Versus, you know, if you say, I'm gonna do the research, I'm gonna do the all the writing, I'm gonna create this thing and then ask you to review it. I will tell you though that, you know, 9 times out of 10, I, I wish that people had the budget or, you know, and would just make the commitment to hire me because it is, like I said, you know, it's hard to do this if you've never done it before. And I don't think it's it's very rare for first-timers to do a really great job. They can, and it has been done before, but it's hard. It takes a lot of time, and I don't think authors realize what all goes into it.

So I have a question for you both on this, because I don't— I got like a vibe that maybe something was behind the scenes there, and I'm going to get to what I mean. Is I— the reason in my business I only offer courses and high-ticket done-for-you is I, at least for me, I discovered that the middle way of like done with you was more complicated than done for you. And when you were talking, I almost was wondering and, you know, say whatever you want to say, but I almost was thinking, I was like, I wonder if it's almost easier for you, even though it costs more. It's almost easier for you to just do it for them than it is to do it with them because so much has to be altered. So I don't know if you want to speak to that or we just skip over it, but I'm just curious.

Yeah, I mean, that's why I don't, I don't offer consultations or edits.

You don't even—

I only do the full thing and it's 5 figures. So like, it's just easier and it's more money and it's less work, frankly.

Yeah.

And to be honest, Tyler, how do you feel?

Yeah, we can— we don't have to include this if you don't want to, but like, I will probably next year not be doing it with people either. Like, it's nice. I said it's just not— it's just not worth it. Like, and it makes me sad. I'm like, I know that I could do a better job of this for you, and it would be easier and faster, and I would get it done, you know, on time, and I wouldn't be waiting on authors to send stuff to me. So it would just— it is a lot easier, but it's a pretty high price ticket. I love it.

If you're cool with keeping it in, we can keep it in. I just didn't know if you were comfortable or not. So I think it's cool. No, I mean, it makes a lot of sense. And it's not like— the truth is, it's not, um, it's not like talking— in my opinion, it's not talking down anybody. It's just like, look, you haven't done it before. And to me, like, think about it. Let's just use the most simple, um, comparison. To upload somebody's book on KDP, is it easier to do it for them or to teach them how to do it? Like, it's easier. It takes like, yeah, we just did it ourselves because we've done it so many times, right? We have to literally like get on an hour Zoom call with them and be like, okay, step 1, you put in this, the keywords. What should I do for my keywords? And then there's all these other sub-questions, and it's just like, yes, literally it is easier to just upload the book for you than it is to try to teach you how to do it. It just is.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah, that's why it's like infuriating to like let my kids—

we're angry at everybody now, guys.

No, I was gonna make it different. I mean, it can be infuriating with authors, but I was gonna say it's like, that's why it's infuriating to like let my toddlers help cook a meal, because it's so much easier to just do it for them and do it without them. I could do it faster, I could do it better. Everyone will be better off. It's true, they won't learn, you know, blah, blah, blah, bonding life skills. But it's like, no, it's just easier. I'll just, you know, like, I don't need your help. I don't want your help. I mean, and that's, you know, not to infantilize, like, uh, you know, the lovely aspiring authors out there. But yeah, I mean, it's just, it's, it's even reviewing it requires so much brain power. And yeah, um, I'd rather have a smaller number of really high ticket Uh, projects, it's an easier business to run.

It really is. Yeah.

The, the nice thing about it, I will say, is that in having to explain it so many times to authors, I've gotten a lot better at explaining it.

Yes.

And so, you know, it actually has helped me understand the pieces of a book proposal, I think, even deeper than I did when I was an acquisitions editor. Because now, instead of it just being something intuitive where I just kind of like I can just look at something and feel that it's not right, or I can feel that it is right. Now I am able to better say, you know, why. I'm able to kind of analyze it and say, okay, this is exactly what's not working and why. This is exactly what is working and why. And so, I mean, for— I guess, you know, it's helped me develop my teaching and it's helped me, you know, kind of understand that at like a meta level. But it's still so much faster to do it myself, you know?

And I think there's a good lesson in that. And the lesson is like, I don't know how to word it. So it's almost like this is— I always say like, oh, it's easier, you know, just courses and high ticket. And it is true. But I do— I'm kind of like skipping over the part of how much I learned from that coaching experience. So I almost think it's like an— it is a part of the evolution of of scaling a company. And I don't know if I would actually recommend skipping it, even though you know on the upfront that it's not gonna be a very scalable way. Maybe it's like, go through it because isn't there a quote out there? It's like, if you wanna learn something, teach it.

Yeah.

Something like that. I don't know who said that, but, and I, you know, out of the hundreds of people that I like coached, or maybe it's even over 1,000, I don't know. But like, it, you know, all that knowledge and understanding that I got from it has probably made my courses and done-for-you services better if I hadn't, or better because I did it. So I don't know.

Yeah, well, maybe. Yeah, and a lot of the skills that you learn, like, in the book writing or in the book proposal writing process is stuff that you will use, like, as you market your book and hopefully many more times as you begin your career as an author and write many more books. So, you know, you need to learn how to, how to sell it, how to talk about, you know, your elevator pitch. How do you drill down on that hook, the big idea? You know, how do you talk about it when you're on podcasts or doing media or writing blog posts? You know, like all of that, those are all book proposal skills. You know, as you approach your investors, like Ariel said, and you try and make this attractive to them, you're doing kind of the same thing with readers and selling them on it. And yeah, I mean, hopefully if you do this many times over in your career, like writing the book proposal is a muscle that you can strengthen and flex, you know, as you hopefully do it many times if you want to be a career author, you know. Ariel, what were you going to say?

Yeah, I know I was, I was going to say something similar, just like if you want to be a career author and you want to write many books, you're gonna need those skills. So maybe it is worth it to, like, to have the coaching, to go through the process, to kind of, you know, pull it apart and analyze it and really spend the time to learn how to do a good job. Versus if you're just, you know, if you're gonna do this once and that's gonna kind of be it, pay someone else to do it for you because it's too much to learn and it's too hard to do well, you know, if you're just gonna do it once.

Yeah. And I think the thing here is too, is that there's kind of like pros and cons to everything in a sense of like, and the pro to me of just hiring somebody is like me staying in my genius zone, right?

Yeah.

My genius zone is definitely not, well, it's not even writing, but writing proposals, definitely not. So, you know, that's one way. But if you are, you know, looking at making this like, you know, you are a writer and this is your long-term career path, even if you decide to hire somebody to do it, it might be worth you going through it a couple of times yourself. And then that way, maybe the person you hire— either way, the more knowledge you have on it, it would be beneficial. It can't hurt you, right? So I think that there is still a pro to attempting it yourself, but also accepting the fact that you two are going to be better at it, right? That's just the reality.

The front half. I mean, one thing I would say is if you want to write your whole— if you want to write your book, and by that I mean you're not hiring a ghostwriter, and there's nothing wrong with that, of course, all the best have help, but if you are going to write your book yourself, write your sample chapters yourself. Don't hire someone. Like, if you want me or Ariel to write your book proposal Uh, but you're gonna write your book, that's totally fine. A lot of people do that. But then like we would come on and just coach and edit you through the chapters. I would never recommend ghosting your chapters, having someone else write your chapters, and then like, you know, selling that to an agent or a book, like a publishing house. Um, especially if like they don't know that somebody else wrote them or that that ghostwriter or collaborator isn't part of the contract for writing the eventual book, they really use those chapters to judge like your writing and your voice and how well you can execute. And so don't hire someone to ghost your chapters if you're going to write your book. But if that person, like if you want someone to ghost the chapters and they're going to write your book, then go for it. But just FYI. Yeah.

And what about— so I think this is actually awesome. This is like a proposal episode, which I think for my listeners is like perfect because they're all— they're mostly hearing stuff on the self-publishing side of things. So, um, and I wanna get into a couple stories then too, but just overall, do you have any like, just like writing tips of like, not the proposal but the actual, uh, for, for your book, Ariel? Um, like just any tips on like how you ended up finishing it, where you think is the best place to invest money? Like would you say edit, like if you had to choose between editing or marketing, What would you, you know what I mean? Just overall, like, best decisions to make and then any writing tips that you would have. And I know that, right, that editing or marketing is kind of tough. The answer is really, yeah. But yeah, and actually I would do editing over marketing, but I asked you.

I was going to say, I think I would, you know, if I had $5,000 that I could only invest in either editing or marketing, I would pick editing. Me too, because without something incredible, you know, without an incredible product, you're not going to be able to market anyway. Like, the best marketing is a great product. So if you can spend that money to have, you know, take your, take your book from a B- to an A+, that is so going to be worth it. I mean, that's going to be how you get word of mouth. And so that's absolutely where I would spend my money if I if I had to pick just one. Yeah.

And then for like writing tips, do you have like— would you, um, like from the clients I've worked with, I've come to realize there's kind of like two different types of writers, I think. And one is the, you know, one or two hours every morning, and then the other is the binge writer that's like, you know, on a weekend is up from like Saturday at 10 PM till Sunday at like 3 PM or something and just annihilates it. So I don't know, do you have any takes on that?

Uh, I am not the binge writer. I am a slow and steady tortoise kind of a writer, uh, and I'm not a fast writer. Liz is a much, much faster writer than I am. So I know that like I need to start plotting away at something, and for me I need to do a lot of pre-thinking. So I, I mean, and Liz and I teach book mapping, and that's something that we believe in. Selfishly, I believe in it because I need to do all of that thinking before I start writing. If I don't have a super detailed plan, I know that there's going to be no way I can, you know, I can get the words on, on the page. I need to really do the deep thinking about what am I trying to say, what's my idea here, how am I going to prove that argument. What kinds of resources am I going to pull in? What's the data I'm going to pull in? How, you know, how am I going to show this in stories and examples? I need to think all of that through in advance, and then I feel ready to start writing and actually get words on the page. I really, I cannot wing it. I'm not a pantser. So personally, my, my best hack is make a super detailed plan.

Love it. And then I don't know, Liz, if you have any input, but like, it's funny and that's why I love every different inputs on everything. Like, I totally agree with you, but for me, I'm more of like the type that's like, obviously I think you want to have a plan of like the end result, but when I'm writing, I just like, it's a disaster. Like, it's just a mess. And then I just take away all the crap at the end and I'm left with something pretty good or so-so. And then I have an editor and then it's very good. Right, but I, I don't really plan that much. I'm just like, get it all out of my head, and then I almost plan or organize it later. I don't know, it's weird.

Yeah, well, the best method is whatever works for you, so there's no right way or wrong way. Um, so yeah, I think— and by plan, you know, we— that could mean a lot of different things to a lot of people. I mean, Ariel and I would almost always say, like, you want to know the transformation that you're trying to walk your readers through. So you, you don't just want to like completely word vomit, um, in that, you know, what, you know, what you're trying to teach. If it's a prescriptive nonfiction book, you're, you know, like the main message, you know, the transformation that you're trying to walk your readers through. If you're writing memoir, you know where it starts and you know where it ends, you know where you're going. The in-between is kind of tough. But you gotta know where you're going, right? But yeah, I mean, like, the hardest part is always the blank page. So whatever you gotta do to get something on the page, because if you got something there, then you got something to work with. But you know, yeah, I, I tend to be— I like, like Ariel, I don't need a ton of time planning, but I do like to just— and even if that planning doesn't look like have something actually written out or typed out. A lot of it can just happen in your head. Like, not to be super, you know, like artsy-fartsy, like esoteric about it, but, you know, you do have to like just think about it. Like, when I'm writing for other clients, I will read the transcripts of, you know, let's say we did a call, I've got the transcripts of that call that will form the basis of the chapter that I'm about to write. I'll read those transcripts like the day or two before I write it, just because I want to think about it, you know, I just want it to kind of marinate the next day because I know I've read those stories. I'm just thinking about them, kind of rolling them over in my head. And then I am a pretty quick writer, but I also now have like, I'll use a decent amount of dictation. So that's another option for people is like, you know, it will come out messy and that's fine. You just have to get okay with that. It will require editing. But like, I will often, you know, just like dictate the first pass if that's, you know, if that just feels easier and faster. And often I can get like, you know, 5,000 to 10,000 words, um, on the page in a day. Now again, like, they're messy, but they're there, so it's easier. It's something to work with, you know.

Totally.

Whatever works for you.

Um, I wanted to ask too, uh, because I think like, well, obviously you guys will agree this, like, stories I think are the most helpful for people to learn with. So can you, and one or two stories of clients you had where, and you can leave their names out if it's necessary, but just curious of somebody that came to you and they hired you both or one of you for your services and then the result they got at the end. So maybe it was proposal, they got a big deal. Just curious, just so people can really see the impact and like what can truly happen, you know, from working with you both. And I know you have many, so it's probably kind of hard to choose, but—

Ariel, who do you want to tell? Yeah, well, I'll tell Brittany. I mean, we like to talk about Brittany, but who do you— does anyone come to your mind?

Yeah. Yeah, I worked with an educator who is fantastic. He runs a company called Organized Binder. His name is Mitch Weathers, and he and I met through another mastermind that we were both part of for a little bit and, uh, just hit it off. And he kind of said, you know, hey, I've got this book idea. I have absolutely no idea where to start, like absolutely from scratch. Didn't even really know what his idea was going to be. And so we started, you know, some coaching together, kind of flesh it out, came up with an idea for a book on executive functioning because that's what his company is all about, is helping kids kind of stay organized. And so we ended up working together. I ended up ghostwriting the proposal, not the sample chapters. He wanted to write those himself. So I edited the sample chapters like Liz said. And he got a book deal. And so, and actually it was exciting because just the other day he sent me a message and said, hey, I just turned in my first draft. And he was like, I just, I can't believe that, you know, just like 6 months ago I was, we were working on the proposal and wasn't even sure what was going to happen. And now, you know, I'm looking forward to my book being published in January. So that was pretty cool.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

Oh, is that, uh, is that— or Liz, if you want to share one. I know that was like conjoined or not.

Well, um, no, um, the one that, uh, this guest has been on our podcast, so if you listen to Hungry Authors, you might have heard of Brittany before. But, uh, she is near and dear to my heart because she was sort of part of what kicked off a lot of what you're going— and I do at Hungry Authors. Um, I had primarily been working with pretty successful people with a decent-sized platform, people that probably don't have a lot of trouble getting a traditional book deal. You know, they hit a lot of those metrics, and that was my normal clientele. Well, Brittany came to me, and she, um, was super ambitious, super likable, had a great idea, uh, but didn't have much of a platform. I think she had a few thousand Instagram, like By few, I mean like 3,000 to 5,000 Instagram followers, less than 500 email subscribers, basically no real Twitter or Facebook. Just, you know, by all the numbers that people say matter, like not a lot going on. And she had a good idea, but it definitely needed some refining. Anyway, she wanted to hire me to write a book proposal for her. I was nervous because I just wasn't sure how much I could help her in that, like, could we overcome this platform objection that I knew a lot of publishers and agents would have. And I gave her like a big discount on services just because I liked her so much and I knew it was out of budget anyway. So we're working with her. I'm telling her this whole way through, like, girl, like, you're amazing, this is amazing, but like just sort of bracing her for like, this might not work, this might not work. But like, go for it. But she was just like gung-ho. Like, she was just doing everything I said, put everything into it, rewrote this like amazing book proposal for her, query letter, sent her out into the world. And I'm just like, oh dear God, like, please let this work because like, it'll just break my heart if like she put this much into it and didn't work. And within like, I mean, it didn't even take that long by in terms of like book publishing life, like within 2 months she had an agent and then another one, she had a book deal. And it was just like, Wow.

Yeah.

And now she has a second, and now she has a second book deal too. And that book, her first is already out in the world. It just really proved to me like, that's like, and around the same time, Ariel and I are kind of like, this was a year ago now or so, Ariel and I are, um, coming together for the first time to form this partnership. And so I was just like, this works. Like, it works. What we do works for anybody. You don't have to have a platform. You just have to you know, have a good plan and learn, you know, some of these insider-y things that feel kind of mysterious. Um, yeah. And it was just like, um, super cool and inspiring. And it just really proved to me that, um, platform is important. We get asked a million— it's probably our most popular question about platform, platform, platform. Do you have to have a platform? And we're like, is it important or does it help a lot? Yes. Is it absolutely necessary? No. Like, you can do this without one anyway. Um, yeah.

So I just thought of something that maybe you guys already have, but, and it's, it's my idea, so obviously I think it's great, but I just want to say, I think it would be genius if you had like, like a lead magnet and the lead magnet was like how to land a traditional publishing deal without a platform or with zero followers or something. And then it was just like a short guide that, you know, obviously again, they would still like need your help to put it together, but it could be like a short guide that's just like, look, and it maybe it could share the story of Brittany of like, look, obviously, and the beginning is just like, look, at the end of the day, having a large platform makes it easier. But here's an example of somebody, we got 2 deals, or she got maybe the second one on her own, but regardless, 2 deals and very small platform and here's the things you need to do. I think the amount of opt-ins you would get for that would be insane because that's most people, like most people do not have a platform. So I don't know if you already have that, but I think that would be a good idea. So just put—

that is a great idea. We do not have one yet, although we keep talking about ideas. So yeah, let's make that happen, Liz. I know, that'd be awesome.

That would be something. Yeah, I don't know.

I think that would be some free advice. Hey, if you're listening to this podcast, we call it— we called that idea. Don't go make that, we're gonna make it.

Yeah. Um, and it's perfect for what you guys do, actually, you know, it funneled perfectly.

Yeah, because we do hear it all the time. And even just the other day, like, Ariel forwarded me an email from, like, uh, you know, successful editor and coach in the business. She was like, If you want to write prescriptive nonfiction, you have to have, you know, at least 100,000, you know, total, like across all platforms. Like, you know, I'm like, basically the announcements was like, I don't even take consultations or, you know, compatibility calls with anyone who's got like less than those numbers anymore. Because to get a book deal, you just have to have it. And Ariel and I were like, we have worked with people in the last month who didn't have that and they got book deals, including us.

It's just not true.

Like, it is just not true. Like, what? Why are— where's this coming from? Like, does it help? Of course. But like, and I even forwarded it to an agent who I'm really close with. She runs an amazing, like, really successful boutique, uh, um, literary agency in New York City. She founded it, and I forwarded it to her, and I was like, is this the line now? Is this true? Are people— are people really saying this? And she was like, no, of course not. I sign people all the time that have way less than that. And I was like, Thank you. Like, what's going on?

Okay, Liz, I figured it out though. I think this is why that myth has such staying power in the industry and why people like us continue to say it is because who benefits? We benefit. Like, if we say, you know, and publishers benefit. If publishers say, oh, you have to have 100,000 followers. Yeah, like the author, you're making the author do all the work.

Right.

So yes, the benefits is the, the people in the industry who say that.

Yes. But, and also Ariel, I do, and Tyler, I know you're still here. Um, I, um, I told Ariel this last Friday. I have a theory that, um, you know, this doesn't always like feel super good to hear, but it is the truth. Like agents will often say, when they're turning down a project, like let's say you email your book proposal to somebody and you get a notice or you get an email back and they're like, hey, great idea, but your platform is just too small. Every agent and editor I have worked with, Ariel included, has admitted that that is not the truth. They just don't like the idea and they don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. And platform is a nonpersonal way to turn somebody down. And so Ariel and I also have this pet theory that like there's this myth going around that like you have to have this huge platform because people don't want to hurt anyone's feelings and say your idea is bad. They say you have a small platform. And so now everyone's running around saying, well, my platform is so small, how big does it have to be? Because another thing is every single agent editor that you talk to will admit to you that they have signed a nobody because they had such a good idea.

It's just like, writing was so good because the writing was so good.

So I'm like, we're— Ariel and I last Friday were like, these agents and editors just start being honest with people and tell them you're not the right fit, your idea needs refining, blah blah. Stop telling them it's platform. It's not platform because now everyone's running around thinking they have to have this big platform, you know.

And I do think that it becomes a distraction for authors, right? Like Liz said, like, you— when you say that, when— if I as an acquisitions editor say, hey, 'Your platform's not big enough,' but the writing and the idea are, you know, that's not the reason, then the author is going to go back and they're going to start, you know, blasting themselves all over Instagram and taking themselves away from the work they actually might need to be doing to make their idea and their writing better. And so you're actually hurting authors and editors when— or authors and, and, you know, aspiring writers when you are not honest about why we're turning down these book proposals. But I know from personal experience, like, I used that excuse because it's just, it's easier. It's less personal. It feels less hurtful to say you just don't have a big enough platform than it does to say you're actually not a good writer. Actually, you don't know how to build a good argument.

Yeah. So wait, I wanna, and then I actually wanna ask you the question of like, so obviously good writing, and then if you wanna share any other elements to like what would be in that opt-in, 'cause I'm just curious. I think it would be valuable. But because I'm going to call myself out and this is maybe kind of weird, but I, because it's just another, another way of thinking about it that I have actually said this to people that they need a platform, but it wasn't because I was like lying or I didn't like their work. My reason for it when I've said this in the past, and I actually feel bad now after hearing what you both just said, I'm like, wow, maybe I negatively impacted to these people, but I— and maybe I should reach back out to them or something. Maybe I can refer them to you guys. But basically, what had happened is my understanding of traditional publishing is that it just, it takes, it's such a long process. So when— and I wasn't saying it because I was like trying to convince them to buy my thing and not buy that thing. I truly was just sincere in saying this. And I don't know, maybe I've said it like 10. I mean, I've done a lot of phone calls. So it's been a couple of times. And my reason though was because in my mind I was like, okay, they have like 500 Instagram followers, they don't have a platform. I don't want this individual to spend 2 years trying to pitch something and then them waste 2 years when at the end of the day they could use somebody like myself or somebody else, or they could just self-publish, not even hire me and have their book out in a couple months. So, I thought I was kind of like saving them from wasting 2 years of their life. But, you know, the truth is I actually really didn't have enough data to provide that advice because, you know, I didn't read their whole book or I didn't know all the elements. The only thing I thought was, if you don't have a platform, why would they invest? Because they have no way of knowing that you're going to actually move books if you don't have a platform. So I don't know. That's why I had said it in the past. So just another angle to look at. But so what else though? So good writing. Is there any other things that you would share, like on, like say if you don't have a platform, like what would be the things that would get you the deal still?

You need a really compelling argument. So that's what we call your big idea. What we really mean when we say big idea is like a really compelling argument. So that is something that is debatable and something that is, you know, surprising. There's usually something— you're like turning a common belief on its head, or you are, um, you're kind of busting a myth that everyone believes. Like for us, a lot of it is this, you know, guess what, you don't have to have a gajillion followers to write a great book and publish a great book. That's a common myth, and that's part of, you know, our big idea for our book and for our work. And that's a debatable argument. That's a debatable thing. People will argue us about it, and we love to have that debate, which is why we're here. But it has to be something like that that you are so passionate about and that you've got some data behind and you've got a case to prove and you've kind of put the work into that idea to say, I believe this thing so strongly. And I'm going to either write an amazing story to prove it or I'm going to teach you how to, to do this thing and prove it that way. I would say that's what, that's what you need.

Got it. And I actually, now that I remember when I was on your guys' show, like how I grew my company through partnerships, if there's a good argument and a good enough plan, like let's just say that my social medias were super low or Let's just say I didn't even have social medias, but I had a good argument. And then in my plan, I said, look, we did the research. There's 40,000 people that service millions of these people, and these are our direct readers. My plan is I'm going to do 100 phone calls a week with these partners and get in front of— and I don't know if that would get the deal, but I mean, it would be pretty compelling. And as long as I followed through, even without a platform, it should. It should work to some extent, assuming the work is, you know, the book's written well and all that. Cool. This is actually eye-opening. This is pretty sweet. So, I don't know. I want to leave. We're a little bit over time, which is no problem. That's why if you saw me on my phone, I was just texting the person I'm going to be late. But I want to leave the floor to you guys. I think this has been incredibly valuable, but is there anything we didn't share that you want to share? And then let people know, you know, how to find you guys and your platform.

Well, I mean, we do just want to make the point that like platform is great. Like we are building a platform, that's why we're here, you know. Like, I mean, we do social media. Like we never, you know, whenever we get on somewhere and we talk about like you don't have to have a platform, we get like comments back and they're like, yeah, but I emailed this agent and they said I did have to have a platform. Like Yeah, like, platform is great. Like, build a platform. Like, if you believe in your message and you book— in your book, you should be doing that anyway. We just really don't believe that, like, that has to be the obstacle to you getting your book out into the world and writing a really good book. Um, because it's hard to acquire 100,000 Instagram followers, you know, and it takes forever, and writers probably don't want to do that. And another thing is, platform doesn't just mean social media. Like, start a Substack. Start speaking, start doing webinars, get bylines, pitch articles. Like, there's a lot of different things by platform. Platform just means like you have distribution for your book network, like your platform. I know, Tyler, you have a big social media, but the most valuable asset you have isn't really social media. It's these— the network of people that you know. That's part of your platform. That's part of your distribution channel of how you sell books, you know. Um, and so, and that's what Ariel and I, like, when we got our book deal, we don't have, you know, you go to Hunger Authors Instagram, it's like not that many people, but we have a huge network of people that we know who will endorse us. And, you know, we have the podcast. Anyway, my point is you've got to get creative and think bigger than just social media, you know. Um, and also not, not let that stop you. Like, don't wait years growing your social media and not write the book that you were supposed to be writing, you know. Um, yeah, I'm gonna think really hard about that, Ogden. Like, what do you need, uh, besides platform? Because that's really, really good. I love Ariel's answer of big idea, an argument, a good book, a unique point of view, you know, something to say, something that hasn't been said before, you know. Yeah.

And also, um, and then obviously Ariel, I want to, um, uh, let you, uh, speak to— I just wanted to say this real quick because I just thought of this, like Also, like, what is a platform? Because I actually realized that I just caught myself thinking that Instagram is like the only platform because— no, but in reality, like, you're right. Like, my partnerships and network are way more valuable than my Instagram and LinkedIn. There's all these other things. It's not just your IG following.

No, you don't have to. If you're, if you're introverted, you don't have to be on video. You don't have to be liking and commenting on everything. There's lots of different ways to build a platform that feels authentic to you. Um, yeah. And we encourage people to do that and we say you don't have to do it. You can also get a book deal without it if that's what you want to do. Ariel, Ariel, you get the last word.

I don't know if I have anything to add after that. That was so well said. That was, those were all the things that I would have added. So great job. I'll just say, uh, where to find us. So you can follow Hungry Authors on Instagram. You can go to our website, hungryauthors.com, to sign up for our email list. And you can listen to our podcast. We are on a break for the summer right now, but we are coming back with season 2 in September. And our entire podcast is having publishing conversations with industry professionals. Sometimes it's just the two of us, you know, offering advice on and thoughts about whatever is kind of timely at the moment. Um, but we really want to help people realize all of this in their lives. We want to help aspiring nonfiction authors write incredible books and, you know, hone their big ideas so that they can get a book deal if that's what they want, or moreover, so that they can just write and publish a fantastic book.

Yep. That's right. All right.

Thank you, uh, both for coming on. And what I wanna say is, uh, I'll have you both on again after that opt-in is created.

Yeah. And then we'll start that.

So I look forward to it. And yeah, thank you again. This was awesome.

Awesome.

Thanks, Tyler.

Thanks, Tyler. See ya.