Nandu and Anuj: Spirit of Humanity | The Authors Unite Show #994

All right everyone, welcome back to another episode. I have two incredible guests with me today to talk about something, uh, really important. So I'm really excited for all of you to hear this, and I'm gonna let them introduce themselves. So, uh, Anuj, why don't you start and then we can go from there?

Yeah, hi, thank you, Tyler. My name is Anuj Naheta. I'm from Mumbai, India, and we come from a traditional business family. But more importantly, we're here to bring to notice what is actually going on in our country. And, and Nandu, after you.

Hi, Tyler. Thank you so much for having us on the show. It's really a pleasure and to get a chance to talk about a very important issue. I'm a social worker, born and brought up in India. I've studied a bunch of different things. Currently, I'm on an NGO board which is to deal with human rights and animal rights and a whole bunch of things. But currently, we're here to talk to you about the crisis happening in India. And yeah, of course, of course.

So I think a good, like, starting point, because as we were, you know, talking before, one of the biggest things is kind of like COVID exhaustion and denial. So a lot of people think like at the end of 2020 that COVID pretty much ended. And obviously, you know, as us three were discussing prior to this podcast, that is definitely not the case. So can you just kind of bring people up to speed, like what is happening in India right now and also, um, in other countries, right? Because this is, um, spreading outward from India as well. So just kind of a background.

Yeah, so, um, so yeah, yeah, sure, you can go ahead.

No, no, continue please, Anuj.

Uh, yeah, so basically, uh, where— what we're seeing is right now it's, um, it's obviously, you know, what, what everybody had kind of assumed, um, as, uh, you know, the end of COVID which, uh, which was actually indicated by, uh, you know, our government at the start of this year. And, and we actually, all of us, were caught, uh, kind of unprepared for what was was to come starting from February, March onwards. Because last year, what we had seen is the impact of COVID was fairly limited in India. And even though it started off quite intensely, it tapered down really fast. And we were able to manage it even though we have a really weak health infrastructure in most of the country. Prior to that, you know, as soon as this year kind of started off and this wave kind of kicked off, because of the nature of the current variant, things were actually extremely, extremely, you know, intense, I would say. And it kind of took us on a journey which, you know, I don't think, you know, most people in India have ever seen in their lives. And this is the reason why we're actually bringing this up because we want the world to know what to be careful of, what to look out for, and how to prepare yourself for what can potentially be a very devastating time ahead. Because what we have seen on the ground in India, I would prefer that nobody in the world goes through that. And we would try to cover as much information as possible to explain to you what the current situation is, where we went wrong, and what sort of information we can give to people outside of India to prepare the country for what is to come.

Tyler, I'd like to give some background also onto this. When COVID first came to India last year, I think there was a generalized panic across the world because we didn't know what we were dealing with. We didn't know what the virus was. We didn't know how it's spreading. We didn't know where the strain originated from, what the cure was, nothing. So there was a very stringent lockdown that was put into place. It was supposed to last for a day, and it went on for a couple of months. What happened was there was a lot of panic, you know, and people, because they didn't know, you know, where is this virus, how are people getting it. And you have to understand, in cities like Mumbai and Delhi, people live in slums. So families live in like 12 to 15 people in like 100 square feet or something like that. Forget about social distancing, is simply not possible. I mean, people who live in slums, they have a public toilet. So like, I would say like a couple of hundred to a thousand people use the same toilet every single day. So how do you sanitize? Like, you're lucky that that toilet even works, firstly. So the panic that happened was, you know, you're supposed to be locked in. How are you supposed to access food? How are you supposed to social distance? How do you, you know, who do you trust at this point? So a lot of people started heading back to their villages on foot, and that was like the first disaster that happened because people were starving, and there was no public transport to take them home. So when things start— I think when that first lockdown happened, you saw the numbers weren't too high at that point, and that's why it was kind of controlled. And also the virus hadn't spread so profusely, or, you know, out so much into India as yet. And people had left for the countryside, and it was a much lighter strain than what is happening at this point. So when things started to ease up and the lockdown started to ease up, I live in sort of a wealthy part of Bombay, and I'm living on the seafront. And I'm telling you, when the lockdown happened, it was like there was never ever lockdown. There were people on the streets, bikes, families. It was like they were just dying to get out because they needed that space. And, you know, they've not worked, they've not gone out. They wanted to restart. Start their lives. You know, they were desperate to do that because they've— 6 months they've gone without work, they've had to shut their businesses, etc. So they really dropped their guard. And, you know, they said, oh, COVID's over. Like, I remember, like, on New Year's 2021, everyone's like, oh, thank God 2020 is gone, you know, COVID is over, the vaccine is coming, it's going to save us from everything. But that's just not the case because there is so much vaccine hesitancy in India. I just saw on the news somewhere that some people jumped into a river and told healthcare workers, please go away, we don't want your vaccine, et cetera. So there's so much unawareness around the subject and people are so hesitant to take it. And like Anuj was very rightly saying, when the second wave finally hit us, the entire country was completely unprepared for it. People, again, when they heard a second wave is coming and they preempted a lockdown like what we had last year, they started fleeing back into their villages and their rural parts of India. And what they, unfortunately what happened was they were taking the second strain along with them, which is a lot more infectious, a lot more deadly, infecting younger people, infecting children, and people dying in a matter of a few days. So it's a completely different situation from last year.

Yeah. So, or sorry, go ahead. So also, I want to add that, for example, last year we were seeing in every household, assuming there's a 4 to 5 person household, we had maximum maybe 1 to 2 people that could fall sick at that time. It was never more than 1 or 2. This year, most of the households, especially in the rural areas, are having 80% to 90% of the people in that household which are being infected, which means that this strain is nothing like the previous one. It behaves differently. It spreads differently. And it reacts differently. And what we're seeing is the kind The kind of infrastructure you need to handle this current strain is going to be more than the previous one because the impact is much, much more devastating. One of the primary factors I would say that is really concerning about this new strain is that what we have seen in our experiences as well, that this kind of strain creeps up to you after the first week. Like, you know, you will have a week of where you'll have minimal symptoms. You feel like you're recovering well, everything is going fine. and then suddenly on day 7, day 8, day 9, bam, you know, it'll come and hit you hard. Your oxygen levels will drop and you'll descend into complete chaos. By, you know, kind of, it will be, it'll be as sudden as, as anything you can possibly imagine. And this is something which, which people, uh, people did not, uh, you know, kind of estimate, right? Because when you, when you get sick, you get gradually sick, you know, it just doesn't come to you one fine day and bam, you know, your oxygen drops below a certain level. So this is something that we also kind of need to need to really, really watch out for and kind of, you know, explain to people that, you know, there has to be regular testing every single day. You have to monitor your oxygen levels because there's something called happy hypoxia where your body doesn't even realize that, you know, that your oxygen levels are going down. You feel absolutely normal, you feel good. And that is extremely concerning because, you know, that is something that one of our close relatives has as well experienced and unfortunately didn't make it, you know. So this is something I would like to also kind of stress on.

Yes, so that was, um, a few questions are coming to mind. So one, you just mentioned a close relative. Any, like, personal stories, I think would be just, you know, I'm saying, I'm very sorry to hear that. But what you're willing to share, I think would be good for our listeners to hear. And then after that, I'm also curious, why, why do you think there is like a hesitation with the vaccine? You know, because that seems maybe that's kind of part of the problem, because it seems to me what, from what you're telling me, it's very hard for people to isolate, right? Because it's very crowded in these specific areas. So without isolating, it seems like there's really no way to avoid if somebody gets it, you know, everybody around them is going to get it. So the vaccine seems to be the only solution, but if people are hesitant to get it, You know, that's a problem. So either way, I know that was kind of a lot, but to start, how has it personally affected you guys? And then I would love to lead into why you think people are hesitating with the vaccine.

Yeah, well, so just to highlight a couple of personal things, I mean, I, on a very personal note, this is the first time, I mean, I lost almost, I would say, 7 family members of my extended family, including 2 who were extremely, extremely close to us, which is why, you know, people like us, you know, just ordinary citizens, cousins and the commoners kind of left all our businesses and everything to kind of, you know, help people around us because this is the first time it hit every single family. And every time we would try to start and mourn for someone's death, you know, it's just that something else would come up. You know, I still remember I was mourning for my maternal grandfather. And then, like, you know, at the same time, I'm getting calls on my phone that, you know, that my aunt is dying, I need oxygen, my sister's in trouble, can you help me with this? And it was just that, you know, It gives you like also faith in the kind of, you know, people that are around that are willing to help you. But at the same time, you know, it's so overwhelming that, you know, when you need to mourn, you're not getting the time to mourn because it's everywhere. It's every single one of my friends, my extended family, my— even my helpers, all the people in our houses who work for us and their families. Everybody has gone through pain. And this is not— and this is the first time I've seen, you know, everybody kind of come together to actually help each other out and, you know, kind of really take care of each other because, you know, in in such a situation, I mean, I pray it doesn't fall onto pretty much anybody else, but it is something where it became very real to us. It became, it started affecting people that we never thought in our lives would have happened. And I'll just give you a small example. My uncle was only 56 years old and he doesn't drink, he doesn't smoke, he only eats home food, he's extremely healthy. And his was kind of a happy hypoxia case where after a week, suddenly of just purely just coughing. After that, it just descended into a space where within 24 hours he lost— basically, his oxygen levels went down from 95 to 36. And basically, his lung damage was between 70% to 80%. And this is something which we have never come across in pretty much most diseases that at least we have seen and people around us have seen. So in terms of personal stories, you will hear hundreds and thousands of them. Because everybody, single Indian, has been affected. And we're a very large country, as you know. And honestly, most of the stories won't even come out. And there are some horror stories, like, you know, like kids and, you know, young children all the way from the age of, like, you know, 10 months, 20 months, all the way up to the age of 30 years old have lost, you know, both all their families, their parents. And right now, it's leading to 10 other problems as to where we're going to house these children, where, you know, how we're going to actually take care of them. Because, I mean, The infrastructure is so poor that the suffering does not stop only at COVID. It actually goes beyond. Just my two bits on the vaccine as well. I would say that also apart from— like you've seen in America as well, America is not— not the entire United States is receptive to the idea of a vaccine as well, purely because it's been also created in such a short period of time. Which is quite unusual, right? But it's obviously a need of the hour. And we are also lacking enough vaccine supply as well and the infrastructure to distribute it. Now, you know, all the vaccine centers are crowded. It is still another risk going to even get the vaccine as well. So I mean, there's a variety of problems that govern the vaccine distribution as well. I'll let Nandu speak more about it.

So what I wanted to sort of add on to what Anuj was saying was firstly, people in the rural parts of India, they don't have access to hospitals. There's not a hospital for hundreds of kilometers or miles, you know, in your terms. Even when they get over there, they don't have testing. They don't have proper testing to check, do I have COVID or not? They don't have the rapid antigen test. They don't have the PCR tests. They don't have enough laboratories to test. I've also heard from some of the NGOs I've been speaking to and some of the rural districts, they said, look, even if there is a laboratory, you're not going to get the test result for 3 to 4 days. In that 3 to 4 days, you may have contracted COVID. So because the testing facilities are not even available, a lot of people are being misdiagnosed. A lot of doctors are telling people, oh, you just have typhoid, or it's just the flu, just go home and rest. What's happening is they may be going back home and they may be spreading it to, you know, within their village, within their families, because they think, oh, you know, it's just the weather's changed, or, you know, it's a common cough and cold or whatever, because they're also not very educated on what is COVID. I will say the government has— every time you call, call anybody on the phone, they're like, wear a mask and wash your hands and sanitize and take the vaccine. But, you know, people should at least have that. People don't have masks, they don't have sanitizers, they can't get tested, the vaccine is not available. I know my best My husband's mother stood in line. She's above— so the vaccinations opened up for above 45 people, age of 45, and she stood in line for about 4 hours at one center and they ran out. And then she said, I'm good, now I'm going to the next center and I'm going to wait for another 4 hours and pray to God that I get the vaccine. So even for the people who want the vaccine, there simply isn't a vaccine. It's not available. In my house, my father's unwell and we have a nurse. She's around— how old is she? She's in her 30s, but she's a healthcare worker and she hasn't got the vaccine as yet, and healthcare workers are supposed to be the first in line. So there simply isn't enough vaccines going around at the moment, firstly. The hesitancy and everything is the second chapter. Even for the people who want to take the vaccine, it's not there. And there's a misdiagnosis happening because there's simply not enough testing happening. There's not enough awareness on it. People don't even necessarily— they don't even have doctors to go to. In rural parts, there might not even be a primary healthcare center. There may not even be a clinic. And on top of that, in the hospitals, nurses and doctors are falling sick. So can you imagine how crippling this is tomorrow if you don't even have a proper healthcare system? And whatever healthcare system you have, the shoddy healthcare system you have, if the doctors are falling sick, if they are overworked It's, it's, it's, it's— I, I have no words.

Yeah, so I'd also like to add one more thing, uh, Tyler, what, what Nandu said regarding, um, especially regarding misdiagnosis. So, uh, this is a person— so my, my own help, uh, he comes from a village in, in the state called Jharkhand, and it's a village of around 6,500 people. And, um, and obviously he, he cried out to me for help, and we were kind of assembling all NGOs to send them out to various rural areas so, you know, they can kind of get get the most basic of the basic, including fruits, vegetables, beds, oxygen, anything that they could possibly get their hands on, because there was only a 20-person COVID center, you know, so it's only for 20 beds, and how are 7,000? And then I was asking him that, that please go to your main head of the village and give me the, and give him the phone. So I went and spoke to him and I asked him, I was like, you know, explain to me what is the current status? And he told me, look, we're between, we're a little over 6,500 people, we have a 20-bed hospital, there is basically COVID in every single household. That each household has an average of 4 to 5 people and 90% of the households are infected. And when they actually go to the doctors, because the doctors have no experience, have diagnosed the entire village to have typhoid, you know, and that was really concerning because, you know, typhoid doesn't spread like an airborne disease and especially COVID. And we knew what the problem is, but You know, it's just unfortunate because they don't have enough medicines to even treat those. So if they diagnose them with COVID you know, people are just going to be on the streets and not have any medicines and die anyways.

So that is one of the problems. I want to add on to that. I spoke to one NGO and they were in touch with a family in a rural part of India, somewhere in the north. And they said, look, even if these people have, say, a fever or something like that, they don't have something as simple as paracetamol. Like they don't even have access to that. So for somebody from the city to pack a COVID test for them, to a COVID kit for them, excuse me, like with a mask, with an oximeter, with the basic of medicines, even if they put all that together, that's a— that's not an issue. To send it to those rural parts will take 3 to 4 days. By then, if that person has COVID and they're not getting any kind of help, they're gone. Like it's over for them.

So it seems to me, and I'd like to expand anything you guys know, I'm kind of like tracking like what the core issues are. And then I want to see like, maybe we could start to discuss like what, like what solutions potentially we're looking at, and then also to help other countries that this, you know, obviously is going to be spreading outward to, but But this new variant seems to be a very big issue. And like, just, I can just speak for myself being in the United States, specifically in like Florida. It's here, it almost seems like things are back to normal, right? So I'm guessing this new variant hasn't hit here yet. And so the question is like, what do you guys know about this new variant? Obviously, I know it's spreading much more and it's more deadly. Do you know like the— like where did it come from and like what do they know about it, I guess scientifically? Like is it best to be treated in a different way? I guess I'll let you guys expand on that a little. I'm just curious anything you guys know about it.

Tyler, every year the flu mutates. That's why every year you have a new flu vaccine because the one from last year may not be as effective. So like this, this is similar to the flu, like a virus, it's going to continue to mutate just because this is exactly what we're trying to say over here. We, we have been slapped in the face so hard, you know, and our infrastructure is just so not prepared for this. And at least the United States mostly has a good healthcare system. You know, you have hospitals, but can you imagine if you're just completely overwhelmed And you know, where you're trying to get to the hospital, you know, one hospital says we're full, go to the next one. You have to drive, you know, 2 hours to the next hospital. You don't have oxygen. I've actually seen a video on the news where a man is breathing into his wife's mouth trying to give her air.

Wow.

Till they can reach the next hospital. And even if they reach that hospital, there's a queue of 40 and 50 people outside trying to get into that hospital. And people are crying and they're saying, please just send the doctor, let them look at my wife or my, my, my husband or my child or whatever. Somebody help us. And that person just dies in a taxi going from hospital to hospital. And this is all over India. This is just all over. There's places that are not even being put on the radar right now that we don't even know about. And what we're just trying, what the purpose of this conversation is, is to let everyone know, please don't let your guard down. You know, just because you think, you know, everything is hunky-dory and we're all safe and all of that, you're not, because things mutate like the flu. And we're even more concerned about other countries such as Indonesia and Thailand, which I'll let Anuj elaborate on, because they are just as unprepared as India is. I also spoke to a friend in Indonesia and she said, "Nandini, it is spreading." And exactly what's happening in India where, you know, the rural communities or the poorer communities are not equipped and they do not have the healthcare system is going to hit them the worst. And it's now coming up, it's now showing. So, and this variant will change whichever country it goes to, it's going to adapt to everybody's different immune system. We all have different immune systems. Yeah, so we're seeing, we're seeing an issue with the black fungus right now. They're saying it's not related to COVID, but it's related to, you know, the pipes and the machinery and the oxygen or whatever. There's going to be other issues that crop up with this. So I think the point is, don't, don't think everyone is safe. Don't, you know, we understand what exactly you said. There is COVID exhaustion. We get it. But COVID exhaustion is better than no life whatsoever, is better than losing someone.

Yeah, and what we've seen also is, say for example, Florida. I spent, you know, all of December I was in Miami, and it felt completely an opposite world than it was from India, even at that time. And then when I came back here, COVID was pretty much, you know, it was over in India at that time. And we also thought that, okay, you know, it's— and America, I mean, wasn't really affected beyond the point. So everybody generally did take things for granted. But as you know, vaccination, even though your entire country is vaccinated, vaccination does not prevent transmission. And until your entire, every single person in your country is vaccinated, the risk for mortality is still there for that, because at the end of the day, there's so many vulnerable people as well that are not currently vaccinated, that are, you know, only in the first dose of vaccinations. And what we have seen in this, especially with the vaccines in India, is that if you have even one dose, it's still as risky as having no doses. But if you're fully vaccinated and a period of time has passed, then it does help you, kind of save you from near death, you know, essentially. But The damage to your lungs and other parts of your body and other systems are so much that it just makes you think that you'd rather be cautious about it. Just act as if you don't even have the vaccine. Keep your mask on. Keep social distancing. It's just that, like I said, some people have a great immunity to it. And even though this is a virus which affects— the mortality rate is extremely high. Extremely, extremely low. But if you just go to it in absolute numbers, it's, uh, it's something that we need to worry about. But what I would also say is that the new variant, uh, because of the lack of health infrastructure in our countries, um, we should be worried about countries like Nepal, like Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, you know, Malaysia, Philippines, Vietnam, you know, and Indonesia. These are the primary Southeast Asian countries. And then following that, South America and Africa, which have have very similar health infrastructure to us. And I can guarantee you that once it leaves here and it reaches, which it probably might have already, but once it starts spreading, none of these countries are going to be able to handle the load beyond the point. And, and their health system is going to crumble and the mortality rate is going to increase. So it's, it's just a point where, you know, we have, we just thought, you know, it is a fiduciary responsibility of ours to make sure that every single person knows that what's happening in India and what they're seeing in the media is only a fraction of what the actual problem is over here, especially in the rural and underdeveloped areas, you know. And that's what we need to be cautious about.

Yeah, I know. I want to add on to exactly what you said. So Tyler, another thing is that the deaths are highly, highly underreported. Highly underreported. People in fact don't even want to say there is a death because they're fearing if the authorities find out that somebody in their family has died of COVID they will not be able to perform the last rites for that person. So therefore, they do not even want to say, you know, somebody has died in the family because then the body will be picked up and, you know, it'll be put in a funeral pyre somewhere where the family cannot do the last rites. So the numbers are highly underreported.

So the last rites, what does that mean? You mean to actually have like a proper like ceremony? Noon, right?

Yes. Oh yes.

Yeah. So usually, uh, like after every— like, you know, like I said, there's a morning time, you know, and, and there's a morning way, like when you actually go and cremate a person, right? But like, for example, like when my uncle passed away for COVID, uh, we couldn't go and actually perform his last rites. But my, my, my maternal grandfather who passed away without COVID, we were allowed to actually, you know, um, you know, do the actual ceremonies. And, and that was, like I said, you know, to a lot of people that might seem like a small thing, but, you know, this is when it comes to the end of life, to a lot of people, for their closest people, you know, you will understand that you, you want to do justice to them, otherwise you will never get closure, you know. And, and that was one of the things that we, we personally kind of experienced. And, and I would say that, you know, it is devastating to, you know, more, more than us, it is devastating to the people who were the closest to them, you know, and weren't able to say their final goodbyes because of, you know, these particular issues.

I think Tyler Wagner Wagner, also going along with what he's saying, it's devastating to just not even be able to be there for your family when they're in ICU and taking their last breath. Now, this is not only affecting older people or people with comorbidities, it's affecting younger people. I know somebody from our own family company, she was the head of HR. She had no issues, health issues, anything. She was 30 years old and she died in a few days. Now, can you imagine? It's, it's affecting the next generation, it's affecting the workforce, and it's affecting children. Can you imagine if your child is sitting in ICU and you cannot be there for your child? No, you cannot buy your child.

Yeah, I, I can't even fathom it, honestly.

No, and just one last, one more thing as well. Like, just in the state of Maharashtra, right, which is the largest kind of state where Mumbai is located, they just announced that 10% of all mortalities were the age of 20 and below, you know, which is extremely concerning because last year we didn't see— we saw pretty much like, you know, very, very limited number of underage or like, you know, children who time, you know, being affected by this. But this time I have personal friends who have lost their lives and who are, you know, I'm in the age in the 30s as well. So, and it's not even the oldest. You know, we've seen all the way from the age of 10, 12 years old all the way up to 20, 25. And this age group is supposed to have the best immune systems, are supposed to be, you know, kind of able to handle, you know, these sort of issues, you know. And it's just, it's just very concerning that they weren't able to. So that's just another point I want to highlight.

This, this strain and this virus is just not a joke. I think that's what we're trying to say in a nutshell. It's just not a joke. And please don't treat it like it's gone away.

Of course. Of course. So I want to— I'm curious to hear, like, what is like the media over there? And I'm assuming they're interviewing doctors and doctors are saying like What are they telling the people over there to do to try to, I guess, avoid this worsening? So over in the US, they were saying masks and 6 feet apart and things along those lines. Now that it is where it is, have they attempted to lay out kind of like a plan to try to lessen what is happening? And if so, what are they saying?

So I, I don't— I think hospitals are so overwhelmed, Tyler, they don't even have like time to do interviews at this point. I do know the head of one of Bombay's best hospitals, Breach Candy Hospital, did do an interview. I don't know if it was with the BBC or— but you know, he was just so overwhelmed. He said, you know, he like— it's gone beyond like telling people to wear masks, like I don't know how to explain it. They are just, they're trying to cope at this point, and they're like, and they've been saying the same thing, this is just not a joke.

So what they are more than anything, yeah, yeah, more than anything, the healthcare, uh, system, as you said, is very overwhelmed because a lot of the frontliners are falling ill, right? And that's what happens is when the frontliners fall ill, the kind of diagnosis, the kind of treatments that are given by the junior doctors might not be as effective. Now that is leading to a variety of other problems, you know, because of just mishandling of patients, you know, which is, according to me, you know, these sort of negligence— I wouldn't say negligence, but it's just that because your doctors are short-staffed, you know, and you're not able to monitor patients properly, even your current doses are not able to see the completion. And if you like, assuming that you started those for steroids, steroids you know, have to be administered and have to be tapered off in the right manner for them to have, you know, the desirable effect. You know, otherwise they can affect other parts of your body.

Correct.

And there's a lot of steroid-based illnesses we are seeing coming up right now, which we never thought would have come up. And especially even last year, we didn't see that problem because there was still ample number of doctors. There was still, you know, it just wasn't the same variant, you know, and this time You know, because of obviously, you know, the nastiness of this variant, we have to make sure, we have to kind of like, you know, look at all the ancillary, like all the additional problems that are coming as a result of this. And like I said, you know, mucormycosis, you know, there's all the different kinds of, so right now there's white fungus, yellow fungus, black fungus. There's, you know, like I said, as a result of this particular disease, and then there's post-COVID heart attacks, There's blindness coming in. There's people are losing their ability to walk as well. I mean, it's a variety of, I would say, results that we have never seen with any disease, you know, as per se, which is, you know, which is really like, you know, kind of making this something more unique than the others.

And it seems to me, so it seems to me the biggest issue, and it's not, I'm not trying to put blame on anybody or anything, thing, but the biggest issue was like lack of preparation. So I think, um, like we talked about before we hopped on this interview too, is one of the biggest points of doing this is also to prepare or help to prepare other countries. So I guess if you were to give advice to other countries where this, um, will be going to, I guess inevitably, like, should they be like staffing more doctors potentially? Um, you know, I guess building more hospitals. Obviously these things can't happen overnight, But if you were to be recommending things so that they are more prepared than, you know, you guys were in India, what would you tell them?

Yeah. So firstly, firstly, I would go with obviously, you know, your basic healthcare infrastructure, because what the first few problems we faced were oxygen, medicines, and beds within the hospitals itself, which means that we do not have enough oxygen. Which is something which is, like I said, you know, and we imported the amount of concentrators India has imported already. I'm not even sure what's going to go on down the line because, you know, like other countries are not going to have access to this oxygen, which we have kind of taken in because of the problems in our country, you know. And that is something which is what we have seen would be the, you know, the kind of first point would be to stock yourself with ample number of oxygen plants and oxygen cylinders and oxygen concentrators, because these are 3 of the most important things that we have seen, which were completely, like I said, the most urgent needs. Secondly, what I would say is the hospitals, obviously, because you can always— like what China did, they're able to construct hospitals overnight. I'm not saying that most other countries can do that, but at least they can have makeshift hospitals already prepared within a few days, you know, kind of the, you know, like you said, the portable ones essentially, and at least have some basic infrastructure spread out so that when this comes, you're actually even, you know, mildly prepared for it. You know, it doesn't come as a complete shock to you and, and with your complete unpreparedness. You know, the point of us to get on this and, you know, we're all new to this world. We're just, you know, already like the first time we've actually spoken on, on, on any, any public, you know, platform. And honestly, it was a point where it just that we had to because people need to seriously, seriously prepare for it. Otherwise, what's going to happen is, for example, last time when the Italians warned the Brits, you know, it's just, you know, just taking the advice lightly had led to an absolute, absolute disaster beyond a point. You know, and what we are going to see is this time that ignorance of that warning is going to have a 10 times worse impact than the last wave could have been. So what we would encourage is that, you know, at least from our side, you know, just number one would be to maintain all your basic things, you know, be as, you know, kind of wash your hands, sanitize your hands, wear your mask, maintain your social distance, try to keep as, you know, guard yourself, get vaccinated, and obviously at the same time, you know, kind of be as mindful as you can about people next to you. And that's the only Primary thing I would say, because travel is opening up and you're not going to be able to stop people mingling in, people, those who are not vaccinated and people who have the variant, you know, and that is going to lead to further loss of life, which we are trying to avoid.

Tyler, I would like to add that I think the very basic hospitals need to be well equipped. They need to have their oxygen in place, whether it's a small hospital, a government hospital, whatever it is. I heard from one of the NGOs in one of the rural parts of India they were working with. I think the population was about 6,000 people. There was 2 government hospitals and not one of them had a CT scan machine. So for any poor person, and especially if the entire family of 5 or 6 or 7 or whatever it was, was infected with COVID and the hospitals or the doctor said, please go get a CT scan. they had to, you know, travel 200-300 kilometers to a private hospital. The CT scan over there costs ₹7,000, which is well beyond their means. It might be, you know, a person's salary for an entire month, which means not everybody can get it. That means maybe only one member of the family can afford to get that CT scan, and that means the— probably the woman and the children will be left out. Because it's more important for the primary breadwinner to get that scan, and you know, that's what they can afford. Number 2, I would say, is please continue testing. Test, test, test, test, test. Make tests mandatory. At least know what is going on. That's what a lot of NGOs on the ground are trying to do, is to just just get testing in order, whether it's a rapid antigen or whatever it is. At least they know what the situation is. At least they know what they're dealing with. At least you know whether you have COVID or not. So I would say yes, absolutely, you know, if you're going to a public place, wear a mask, sanitize, all that, but test yourself. In my household, we test ourselves every week, every 10 days. Because one staff member may need to go to the market and buy something. That staff member, God forbid, you know, gets into contact with a COVID person, they'll bring it back to the house and the house is on fire. So stop it in its tracks and do not let your guard down on testing.

And too, I wanted to, to touch on one last thing and then open the floor to you guys to share anything else you'd like to share, but But I think it is worth noting, and this is one of the points that we had discussed, like children that are being orphaned because, you know, obviously in my opinion, you know, dying from this is the worst thing. But it's, it like, what people don't realize I think sometimes is things like this, they spread and affect other areas of life too. So for instance, like, this many people are getting it and it's affecting their health health, then children are losing their parents and being orphans. And then I know, you know, sometimes they're sold into the trade and like it connects to more bad things. So I just want people to realize that it's— this disease leads to other things that lead to other things. So like, can you speak on what's happening there? And then I just want to open the floor to you guys if there's anything else that you think you'd like to share, please do. The floor is truly yours.

Yeah, um, after you, okay.

So, um, like, you know, I work with a human rights NGO, as I told you in the beginning. And so what happens is if a child has been orphaned, they will be picked up by the child welfare services in India and they will be put into a government home. It's already traumatic enough that you have lost your family. You, you know, and then you're being picked out of your community, you've been picked out of the place where your traditions are, where, you know, you, you know, you, you have an aunt, an uncle, a grandparent, whatever it is, you're being picked out of that and you're putting into child welfare services with, you know, hundreds and thousands of other children. And there isn't care, there isn't monitoring. Any child who's been an orphan or who's been through, um, any kind of orphanage or halfway home knows how traumatizing that where you don't have your family in your structure. So there are a few NGOs in India that are trying to not hand the child over to child welfare services, but rather you reunite them within the community. It's not always easy, but yes, there are children who are going into that system. There are children who are also vulnerable, and somebody may say, oh, and there's also in India we have a a thing called a panchayat system. So if, uh, how do I say panchayat? It's like, um, it's like the elders in the community. And if they feel a girl child is better off married to an older man and into his family, you know, then let's do that. Or if, you know, a mother's lost the, the, her husband and she doesn't know how to care for the girl child, she's not going to send— the school is out of the question. So you can't feed one more belly in the lose. So the best thing to do is get that child off married, because in any case, girls in our society become a burden. Um, I mean, this is just a long-standing problem. So a lot of, a lot of the time, I mean, the trade and everything is a completely different chapter. It's horrible. You don't know who you're selling your children to. You don't know, you know, where your children are going to go. Um, it's absolutely heartbreaking. But it is one of the repercussions of what is happening in India due to COVID, because people are starving. If people aren't— they are not at work, if members of their family are sick, they cannot get the help. If the primary breadwinner has died and you cannot put food on the plate, if you have 3 children or 5 children, you're a mother, your only option is Well, you know, we'll sell the daughter. And this is unfortunately, I'm sad to say, a practice that's gone on for many years, has been exacerbated in COVID.

And I don't know, Anuj, if you wanted to speak on that?

Yeah, so I mean, in terms of the problems that are coming up, as Nandu's already covered, that we're seeing a lot of infants like Like I said, right, anywhere, children from a few months old all the way up to the age of 20, 25, 30, which have lost both their parents. And honestly, it just descends into complete anarchy. And I have, again, I have a young cousin, 21 years of age, and she lost her father. And it was just, it's just very heartbreaking to see that, that, you know, when it comes and hits you close to home, that's when you realize how serious the problem is, you know, because even until last year, it was only hitting like this, this this variant was sticking to like, you know, kind of pockets of people and it was affecting people which are not within our circle, you know. And what happened this time, obviously, that it kind of, you know, affected all aspects of life, you know, all kind of, I would say, all sex of people in every single part of the country from the northeast to the west, down south to the islands, which are around the country as well. And from what we have seen is that, you know, and And, you know, something I would say is that this is something which every single person on this planet should take very, very seriously because life is something which is so precious and can never be brought back. And it's only once that happens, then you realize the value of it once it's gone. And our only purpose today literally is to, number one, bring notice to what is happening in our country. And have anybody in any other country be an, you know, kind of take this as an example on how to prepare the infrastructure for that country to withstand the onslaught of this new wave, which is inevitably going to penetrate. And what I would say is also, I mean, this is just something which I hope, you know, can affect, can kind of reach every, you know, as many people as possible. Because I feel that, you know, it's— this has just started. The second wave has just started, you know, in India. And it's— I think within the next 2 months, because of all the free-flowing travel between Europe, you know, and North America primarily, it will spread to other countries. It is without a doubt going to have a major impact. And just like I said, one thing positive that has come out of this is that it's the first time in my life I have seen seeing people like us, just ordinary citizens coming together from around the world, extend a helping hand, you know, send in donations, really help coordinate doctors from internationally providing their advice, their help. I mean, this is the first time I've truly seen the power of people around the world, the power of good people who are generally philanthropic. And that is something which, you know, gives us, you know, the white light, I would say, you know, that doesn't matter what happens. We're all here together. We support each other, and we're here to get all this together, you know, and that's the beauty of humanity and human beings as a race in itself, and that's basically what I would like to say towards the end.

Of course, of course. And what I'd like to say too is my assumption, you know, people listening to this, they're probably wondering now, like, you know, how can I help? What can I do if I'm— I'll just use— if I'm in the United States, like, what can I do to actually help over there and other countries? So are there— I know we'll put some links below for people, but how can people help the most? I'll let you guys speak on that.

So yeah, so there's a few things. Obviously, you know, every country will need help. And I appeal not only for India, but I do appeal for other, you know, really backward countries around us as well, you know, such as Nepal, Bangladesh, you know, and, you know, surrounding countries which are facing similar issues. You know, we know of a lot of charities which are working on ground and doing doing some incredible work. For example, one of the organizations we really trust and support in India is called Art of Living. It is, you know, it is the organization of Sri Sri Ravi Shankar. And it is absolutely, you know, they have done a commendable job on the ground. And there's, like, you know, there's quite a few organizations like them. So if there's anything, you know, in terms of donations, you know, helping with masks, with sanitizers, with pretty much anything today, because I can tell you one thing, that this country is going to need every single resource however small or big it is, in the next few months. And so will the countries around us. So I request, I will give you all the information and, you know, please, whoever can help would be much appreciated. And more importantly, please also keep vigilant yourselves and try to, you know, get over this as soon as possible.

Tyler, I'd like to add what I said to you just before we started this conversation. The best thing you can do to help is not to get sick yourself, because you are one less person who needs oxygen, you are one less person in an ICU bed, you're one less person who a healthcare worker has to attend to, and they're already exhausted. So the best thing you possibly can do is to stay safe yourself. Please mask up, please be careful. Do not panic, because I would like to add one problem I think in India is because people were panicking, you know, when things were on fire, people were also calling for, you know, a cylinder when they didn't quite need it, or they thought, or they didn't know, like, you know, like if they could home treat themselves or how severe the symptoms are going to be. So don't panic. Make. But please take care, please test, and yes, please support as well. Um, I remember I got a call from a girl in America, and her uncle was in India in an ICU bed. And she said, look, I'm trying to get oxygen for him. I spent an entire day, I spent 6 hours, I must have made 80 to 90 phone calls before I found one oxygen cylinder to send her uncle. And was through one network and another network and another network, and we finally got the gentleman an oxygen cylinder. He finally didn't survive. The saddest part is he didn't, he didn't make it.

Um, just imagine— yeah, sorry, just to add to your point, Tyler, you can imagine this is, this is people like us who live very, I would say, very decent lives compared to the poor and the rural people. You know, if we are finding it tough to keep people alive, you can just imagine what's going on in the rural areas of the country, you know. And that is what is absolutely heartbreaking for us, and that's why we have— we are actually—

Anuj, I love what you're saying about the spirit of humanity and people coming together. So I would also say, please come together by just keeping yourself safe, you know. Don't let your guard down because you don't know if you're a carrier. At least think about other people. And like I said, get yourself tested regularly because you don't want to do that to somebody else. You don't want to know that you suddenly have COVID and you've passed it on to, you know, you've been foolish one day and you've gone out and now 10 other people have it because of you. So don't do that. And, and, you know, in India it's not just the beds and anything like— it's also going to affect the GDP if people are not able work if people are sick. You have to support like an entire nation this way. That's why people today are going hungry, they don't have work. The entire system collapses along with it. So please be sensible, don't— you don't think that this is over until we as an entire planet, you know, have gotten over COVID. COVID is not going away.

Well, uh, and Anousha, if you want to add anything, please do. But I, I want to thank you both for, for coming on. I think this is, you know, one of the most important episodes I've, I've ever done. Um, and yeah, I know we'll, we'll put links below. Um, and again, yeah, I just want to thank you both for, for sharing your stories. And I think this is going to help people really see what is happening and help prevent this from worsening around the world. So I really do appreciate it, guys.

My pleasure. Thank you so much, Tyler Wagner Wagner. I think, I think we've covered most of like this. There's so many things that we could talk for hours and hours about it. But as much as we told you over here, I mean, we would not be on this call if the situation was, was not serious. You know, we are only here because we are safe right now as, as a family, like as, as friends, like around us in the urban areas, everybody's safe. Right, but the devastation has just started. The actual loss of life is in the rural areas and the underdeveloped places, you know. So I would really encourage everybody, every people from these sort of countries, you know, which don't have the health infrastructure, to be extremely, you know, to be more, 10 times more cautious, because it is going to hit, you know, and that is a time where, you know, we're going to realize that, you know, unpreparedness can can lead to, you know, the devastation because of that can be beyond imagination.

Yeah, Tyler, thank you so much for this platform. We really appreciate it, and we would really like to just tell the world, guys, be safe, take care, you know, don't let your guard down, and please continue to be, you know, human and help your neighbor, help your friend, help everybody. Thank you.