Sandeep Chennakeshu: YOUR COMPANY IS YOUR CASTLE | The Tyler Warner Show #1091

All right everyone, welcome back to another episode. Today we have Sandeep Channakeshu with us, so welcome to the show, man.

Thank you, Tyler Wagner Wagner. Of course.

Um, so to start us off, can you tell us a little bit more about you and what you do?

Well, I'm 65 and I spent the last 35 years, uh, in the United States and in Europe, um, building businesses and launching cool products, cell phones, cell phone technologies, software for cars, security products, semiconductor chips. And today I work at a startup doing digital radar. And along the way, I had the opportunity of working in 14 different countries. And, you know, I thought I'd write a book I wrote the book, it's about how to build a sustainable business based on my experiences of turning around for nonprofit businesses that were not profitable. And the book is called Your Company Is Your Castle. And I guess one of the reasons I'm on your show is to talk a little bit about the book.

Oh, that's perfect. So wait, one more time. What was the title of the book?

Your Company Is Your Castle.

Ah, your company is your castle. Okay, got it. So, okay, so there was a couple things there. Let me ask you this, with where you are today, and I think for you, this is even more of an interesting question just due to all the different things that you've done in your life. When you were like, let's say like 14, 15, did you foresee yourself where you are now in any way, shape, or form, or like completely different?

Oh, absolutely not. I think at 14 and 15, all I wanted to do was to play cricket. And become a pilot, you know, and I didn't study at all, much to the disappointment of my parents because my siblings were brilliant. And, you know, I used to bring home a bad report card and they'd bring home a really good report card. So no one showed my report card. And I think with time, you know, as time went on, and I did get, you know, I wrote the exam for the National Defense Academy, and got in. But, you know, one thing happened or another, and I wasn't allowed to join. My mother didn't want me to join. And, you know, I had to pick up a second option. And the second option was that, you know, I could go to an engineering school. So, well, I reluctantly went to engineering school, but it turned out to be quite good, because I went on to do a PhD. And then I got one great job after another. And before I could blink my eye too often, I was— I'm 65 and here I am.

Oh, that's awesome. So completely different. And what I will say, though, your siblings have not been on the Tyler Wagner Show.

So that's— that's true.

So that's the biggest difference there.

But that's very true. I should tell them that.

Yeah. Let them know when this goes live, be like, hey, I didn't see you on the guest list. So, okay, very cool. And then so how many— so you said 14 different countries. What was the first business that you were— that you either worked for or that you started? Like where, I guess, where did your like business career start after college and all that stuff?

After I graduated, you know, I had basically specialized in mobile phones. And this is way back between '84 and '88 when mobile phones were not big. And so a number of companies who are embarking on building new technology for mobile phones were interested in hiring a specialist like me. So I got hired into GE Corporate Research in Schenectady, New York. And after 5 years, I built a team and Ericsson, the large telecom giant in Europe, bought my team out and we became Ericsson Research for mobile phones. And one thing led to another and 12 years later, they made me their Chief Technical Officer. And, you know, I was then asked to run a business, it ran well for a few years and then collapsed. So we had to merge with Sony to form Sony Ericsson. I was sent over to help merge the business. And at Sony Ericsson came up with this idea that, hey, you know, everyone's using cheap phones with black and white displays. Why don't we do multimedia phones that can play music, can watch videos, have color screens, can take pictures, et cetera? But nobody knew how to build the technology for that. There was a company in Sweden that was doing it and doing it well, but for every dollar they made, they lost a dollar. So they said, hey, you came up with this lovely idea, why don't you go and go to that company and fix it? So they shipped me off to Sweden, the best 3 years I spent in my life, fantastic country. And well, in about 9 months, we turned the business around, we made it profitable and went on to take 30% market share in the world, huge success. And the company basically grew from, tripled its revenue, and became extremely profitable. And that was my first venture into actually doing business and turning around any enterprise. So that, after that, after that, I got 3 other opportunities. And one thing led to another and the next 20 years flew.

Wow. Yeah. Okay. So I'm curious, you said that I think you said the company Erickson, it collapsed. Can you give a little bit more? And maybe, you know, there might be some knowledge that was inside the business that you're not able to share, but I'm just curious, like, and maybe, I don't know, I'm always just curious how that happens to a business. 'Cause like, obviously it was thriving, right? For a while, it's doing super well and then it just collapses. Like, was it like casual or was it over time or was it really just like everybody woke up one morning And most of the people were like surprised that it had collapsed. Like, how did that work?

By the way, this was Ericsson Mobile Phones and not the infrastructure business. Ericsson has been a powerhouse and number one in infrastructure for 150 years. So this is the— there were two businesses, infrastructure and mobile phones. So I'm talking about mobile phones. What happened to us is that we were growing extremely well for 3 years. And then I think we completely missed a technology generation and our competitor leapfrogged us. And as a result, you know, we fell behind and we didn't keep up. And so when we went and became Sony Ericsson and we changed our technology strategy and our strategy on what we wanted to do by building, bringing in content into phones. 'Cause, you know, consumers in those days wanted not just cheap phones, they wanted to do more with phones like we do today. You know, we wanted color displays, you wanted music, you wanted to take pictures with cameras, you wanted to play games, you wanted to surf the internet. So when we changed the strategy, we grew again to be profitable. And this is something I talk about in my book about how to intersect disruptive trends. Because if you don't, they're like massive waves, you know, if you don't basically catch them and ride them, they could crush you.

Absolutely. Okay, so that makes sense. Interesting. Okay, so you actually, so you really got to see all different sides of like a huge business, like rising, well, part of it falling and then merging. And how involved were you in all of that? Like, were you like—

Oh, deeply involved. As the chief technical officer, my job was not only to do the technology strategy and manage engineering, but also to be handle intellectual property, basically provide, you know, advice on manufacturing and supply chain. And overall, advise the company in which direction to go. Now, I wasn't appointed to that position when we crashed, but I learned a lot by observing the mistakes I had made and my colleagues had made. And that was, you know, hindsight is always 20/20. You basically learn and then you ask yourself, what could you have done better? And what should we do to intersect a future trend? And that's what we did. And so when we did that and were able to execute, because it's not only good to have a strategy, you have to be able to execute to it and have the culture in the company to support that strategy, you know, because culture eats strategy for breakfast. Peter Drucker said that. And yeah, you know, so, so it's very important that you have culture, strategy, and execution aligned. And when you do that, you can see a lot of success.

100%. Actually, one of my good friends, and we actually did a book for him because we— I actually run a book publishing and book marketing company. I don't know if you knew that before, but we did his book and his company is called Culture Matters. And that's what he actually does is he goes into like, I'd say medium to large corporations and then it's kind of like a fly on the wall and then he'll like give the owner like a full report of like his thoughts on how the culture is operating, like how employees are treating each other, just like everything, like a full report. So it was like as long as a book. So it's interesting. And I think that more companies are starting to realize how important culture is, especially the larger you get, because, you know, when you're like 5, 10 people, it's still important, but you you know, the owner is still able to communicate directly with everybody. But once it grows past that, there needs to be like a movement or some sort of like cultural alignment, or it just will not function properly.

That's very true because, you know, it's actually a collection of beliefs and behaviors the employees and the leaders have. And I've always maintained that strategy is what you want to get done. But culture determines what you get done. So if culture does not align with strategy, it's near impossible to execute to it. And so in the book, I talk of, I have an entire chapter devoted to it where I call it, there are two parts to it in building culture. One is how do you raise the right army? What sort of behaviors do you encourage? And the second is, how do you lead that army? And that's the leadership qualities that you need to continue to reinforce and build upon what you have imbibed into the company.

So, and I see, and then we can, I want to talk more about your professional career over time then, but I see you have a lot of books behind you. So some of the people are just listening, so they can't see the video, but has there been like one or two particular books that have like impacted you the most?

Yeah, a lot of books have impacted me and I mentioned them quite often in my, in the book that I wrote.

Okay.

One of the books that like if you take and then on different topics, a brilliant book on execution, It's called Execution. It's by Larry Bossidy and Ram Charan.

Okay.

It's a spectacular book. You know, I came across it fortuitously because for many years I used to practice and preach a whole bunch of principles without knowing this book existed. So a friend of mine said, hey, Sandeep, have you read this book? Because everything you say and do seems to be out of this book. So I went and read it.

That's so weird.

That's the coolest thing. So it is the best execution book I read, brilliant book. And another book that I found very interesting is a book on negotiation. It's called Getting to Yes. It's by Fisher, Ury, and Patton. Oh, I haven't heard of that one.

I've read a bunch of sales and like negotiation psychology and stuff. I haven't heard of that one. I'm gonna check that out.

Brilliant, absolutely. You know, they teach you about things like, Separate the personality from the problem. Too often when two people are negotiating, there really, there's a lot of ego that comes into play. You need to park your ego at the gate. You know, when you come into a negotiation, focus on the problem, not the personality. Yeah. And then, you know, focus on outcomes, not positions. So don't get stuck and dig into positions, you know, focus on the outcome. And like this, they have a lot of beautiful ways to negotiate. And, you know, I found in negotiating, of course, I've built upon it, and I have, of course, a different set of criteria that building upon what Fisher, Ury, and Patton taught me. Well, talking about other books, Clayton Christensen's book, The Innovator's Dilemma, is brilliant. I know that, you know, there's a very book, another book which I like a lot called The Discipline of Market Leaders. It talks about focus. So, you know, it is by Tracy and Wiersma, very, very good book like this. So there are a few, a large number of books that have been very influential. There are a lot of financial books that, you know, I found, but more than books, I've also found that many mentors who I worked with, leaders who I really respected, I learned the most from them. Yeah, you know, so it's a combination of both books as well as, you know, great people that I've admired and tried to emulate. I've never been good enough to emulate, but it was really good.

How many? I mean, maybe you have no idea, but if you were to guess, like, how many books do you think you've— whether it's audio or physical or Kindle, how many do you think you've read in your lifetime?

Oh, a very, very large number. I cannot, I cannot.

It's like over 1,000 or 10,000 or what do you think?

Nobody also read a lot of articles, right? Sometimes a whole book because, you know, there's, I read fairly heavily, I read at least 10 to 15 articles a week. And so you read a lot. And usually the way it goes is that, you know, I'm in some meeting or I'm with people and I find that they say a number of things that jog my memory and say, well, I think I need to look into this a little deeper. And then I go and search for it and I start looking at articles and that article leads to another article and that article leads to another article. And so, you know, constantly learning and has kind of been able to fill the gaps in my knowledge over time. And this spans— it spans technology, it spans finance, it spans operations, economics, a whole bunch of topics.

Yeah, I think there's, at least with reading or like knowledge absorption, I think there's a balance between just like books in general, but then also like recent events, if you will. And then you like mix the knowledge of like, you know, kind of like knowledge that is true over like forever almost, and then recent of— because, you know, the world's always changing. So then you combine that and then you kind of make the best decisions you can based off a combination of knowing those two things, right?

And it's also very contextual, you know, because you can, you can write, you can read a lot of things, but how do you apply it in context? That's very important because it's— there's no cookie cutter approach to anything, you know, you have to basically adapt it in your context.

True, that makes sense. Okay, so then after that, you know, business collapse, merger, and all that, then like, because you said multiple businesses, so you've also started your own companies?

Yeah, no, actually, I, for what, for almost 30 years, I worked in public companies. I was appointed to one position after another, either to turn the company around or to grow its profitability. So when I finished the stint in Sweden, you know, I could stay in Sweden only for 3 years because of taxation issues. You get an expat status for maximum 3 years. So I came back to the United States, the family wanted to come back. And, you know, I joined a company which the owners sold for $17.5 billion to private equity. It was a good event. But then we took so much, we raised so much money in debt that we had to service the debt. And the debt was a very significant amount, close to a billion dollars. So we had to squeeze pretty much every part of the business to produce cash in order to service the debt. And that was an interesting experience in itself. It makes you think out of the box how to improve gross margin, how to improve operating earnings, how to service the debt. So that was another very, very interesting experience which taught us about fiscal prudence and how to basically get— increase your operating leverage. So that was a really great experience. And after that, even though I was promised a very, very senior role, I decided, hey, you know, why not go off and try something on my own? Because I said, I've always worked in a big company, and I've had large armies of people helping me. Maybe it's time to prove and get out of my comfort zone like I've done in the past and said, go and try something on my own. So I went off on my own and started a consulting company. And I had a blast for 5 years. I was overbooked. I made a tremendous amount of money. And I did fun things. You know, it was, I traveled a lot. I traveled almost 35-40 weeks in the year. And because I was given problems I'd never thought of before, because looking outside in is very different from looking inside out. So very, very different problems, but I was also able to come up with much more creative solutions because I didn't have the same constraints as when I was inside and running a business. So a few years later, the last business I helped restructure, they hired me and gave me 5 of their small businesses that were making no money. It was about 5 or 10% of the company's revenue. And within 5 years, I made it 50% of the company's revenue and generated a lot of cash. So that was a fun experience in itself. How to take the 5 smallest parts of a business and make them the biggest. And so, so after that, I just, you know, said, okay, it's time to do something new again. And I wrote the book, the book took me 3 years.

And okay, that's, oh, yeah. So let's dive in deeper to the book. And sorry to cut you off there. But because I didn't tell you this before, but because of the business that I run, a lot of our audience are authors or want to be like, want to be authors. So I would like to actually go behind the scenes. So not just about the book content, but like how you created it and your strategy, marketing, everything. So, so first off though, 3 years, can you tell us about that? Because I don't know, I feel like 3 years to me, that's almost like perfect. Like that's on the longer end. Uh, and some people have said their books have taken 10 years, right? So some people it's very long, but I think nowadays, people are doing it in like 6 months to a year is kind of maybe an average. So 3 years, what did that look like?

So when I started it, I wrote the book, it took me about 6 to 8 months to write the book. And then I decided to send it to a number of professors, CEOs, and domain experts. And they all gave me feedback. And when I first got the feedback, I was a little upset. The feedback, you know, and but it was cathartic because I said, wait, this is actually— after I got over being upset, because I normally don't get upset for long. So after a couple of weeks, I looked back and said, I said, you know, they're right. I have to not please myself. I have to be able to please someone who's reading it. So I rewrote major portions of it, and then I sent it to a new bunch of reviewers and editors, and they gave me a lot of feedback too. And so I did this 3 times, and then I finally went to the select set of CEOs and university professors that I have deep respect for and said, look— and most of them I didn't know. So I said, okay, they give me a thumbs up, then I'm done. So when they said this is absolutely fantastic, one of the CEOs who runs a $37 billion company said this is the best operational leadership book I've read. Another senior Japanese chairman of one of the biggest Japanese businesses said, wow, you have to have actually done something serious for 30 years if you have to write a book like this. And so, and so that's when I decided, okay, now it's time to basically get the finishing touches, you know, do the COVID design. And the final thing I did is I sent it to a very well-known editor of one of the biggest publishing houses. And he gave me 14 pages of single-spaced comments, nothing about content, but how to do little things to fine-tune things. Like he said, your castle analogies are really nice, but add some intrigue into it. Tell us a little more about these castles. And so I added those little things that added great flavor. And he also said, hey, you've got so many tech examples, can you give us examples of non-tech companies? And so I basically added 125 companies. And so it took me actually about 600 hours of research to add all these things and about 2,500 hours of writing. And so, you know, so actually by the time I sent it for my final edit, I was pretty happy and so were the editors. And so we said, okay, time to go, dude.

That's awesome. Okay. So that, okay, that makes a lot of sense. And that is, I wanna actually break that down for a second because 6 to 8 months to finish the rough draft, right? So that was the initial writing, but then the actual like editing process, if you will, or review process, that was like, over a year. That was like 2 years.

And it was about a year. It was a year to year and then another 6 months for the final edit. So it took about a little over, a little over 2 years to get everything and then 1 year for the entire publishing process, you know, because that's the, you just have to wait, right? Because it takes about 6 months even to print the book because of shortage of paper and things like that.

Yeah, traditional takes, because, and you might be aware of this, there's self-publishing, hybrid, and traditional. Traditional And there's kind of like pros to all 3 of them. There's different sets of pros. Like, for example, a pro for self-publishing over traditional would be the speed. Like, you can do it a lot quicker. But, you know, traditional has different distribution channels that self-publishing might not have. So, you know, pro and con, just, you know, pick whichever one you prefer. But so who was— who is your publisher?

So it's called— they're Fed Books. It's a small boutique company. They've done about 55 bestsellers.

Oh, great.

They're run by Esther Fedorkevich. Esther has, you know, she was, when I went to her, she said, hey, you know what, I just don't take books, I've got to read your book first. She read the book and she told me it is absolute dynamite. But look, I'm going to give you some, she first thought I wasn't coachable, which is funny. So, but I took every bit of advice she said, and she said, wow, you're really coachable. And then it took time and she published the book. It's an agent-published book. He's also my literary agent.

Oh, dude, that's awesome. And I think maybe that's actually something for the audience to look deeper at too, is if the publishers just right away, like, yeah, we'll take it. Maybe that's not the best sign.

You know, actually, just to make sure, you know, no one was blowing smoke up my face, I basically went to 3 independent houses. And everyone said, can we publish the book? They said, this is really good. And then I said, okay, then I said, let me go to someone I trust and who's nearby and, you know, would give me honest advice. And my whole purpose was to impart knowledge. It was nothing else.

Gotcha. Yeah, like it wasn't like you weren't doing it to like get rich off book royalties.

No, no, no, I, no, I, In fact, I've been very fortunate that 2 universities took it for all their MBA students, and 5 or 6 companies have taken it for all their leadership teams and for a larger set of employees. So it's moving, it's beyond my expectations. And even on Amazon, I'm very pleased that I've got 55 reviews and every one of them is 5-star. And what is more, forget the 5-star or 3-star, whatever reviews there are, What's important is what do people write about it? And they've written such long reviews, that means they actually read it and appreciated it. And that means more to me than the number of stars.

Agreed. And actually, I'll tell you this, and take it for what it is. I actually think things start to get really interesting when you get your first 1 star. That's when, you know, you're like, all right, now it's reached like an audience that maybe doesn't even understand it. Like it's outside of like, the audience? So you said like colleges and some of these corporations, and it's obviously spreading further than that. But once, like on my book, I have like 270 or something reviews, and I wrote this 12 years ago. It's— I was 19.

I—

it's not the best book in the world, honestly. I don't think it is. But somebody— it's very skinny— and somebody wrote, uh, on it, uh, saying like, this book is terrible, it's not even good enough to be like a door stand. Like, because it's sexy. And that's when I was like, okay, it is now like, in my opinion, that means it's like, it's kind of reached outside of the target audience, if that makes sense. And which, that's kind of cool. Like, you kind of, I don't know. So I think it'll be interesting. Maybe we'll have you back on once you get your first, uh, 1 star, and then we can talk.

And, you know, the thing is, the more important thing is that, uh, it's not the stars, right? It's, it's I agree, the feedback. It's this feedback I got, like, you know, when I wrote it for aspiring business people and aspiring leaders, you know, trying to impart what I had learned over 35 years through my mentors and reading and experiences. And if somebody could take that and build further upon it, of course, when they're able to do it, like one person wrote to me and said they were going for an interview, and they said, can I use your stakeholder confidence chapter? And they said, well, they got the job as a VP. And another person basically said, hey, can I— I'm going to go to a board presentation, can I use your criteria for how to design winning products? And another person said, you know, I just got a strategy job and I didn't know how to formulate a strategy. And your chapter really helped me. Those are the things that matter more.

I agree. I think what's interesting is, so, and it's perfect for you to say this because you did 5 years of consulting, right? So those 5 years, I mean, you're making a ton of impact and, you know, you're like face to face. Sometimes maybe it's over the computer, but you said you traveled a lot, so I'm assuming you were actually seeing a lot of these companies or people face to face. But a book it travels beyond what you can do yourself, right? Because the book, like, you can only physically be so many places or do so many interviews like this. So a book though, it's like, it even after you, after your kids, like, it's something that has a life of its own. And I think that's what's super cool about a book.

Yeah, I agree. But actually, to me, the best part of the book really for me, in writing it. As I said, I used the word, it was cathartic, because I had to dig deep to actually tell stories of my failures. Yeah, because, you know, most of the time you can brag about successes, but I had a lot of failures. What did I learn from them? How did every stumbling block, every stumbling block become a stepping stone for success? That was the story that I wanted to also share because, you know, nobody, you know, starts some business and says, okay, they're going to get a home run straight away. Business is complex. And so, you know, for me, that was the best part because it allowed me to say how I failed and what did I learn from these failures in order to actually improve. The toolkit that I had in order to run a business.

So it was like a reflection, like a year of reflection in a sense. Like it's a—

2 years. 3 years.

Actually, yeah, you're right. 3 years technically, like initial reflection for 6 to 8 months, but then a lot more like on top added to it. So now that you just said that, so 2 questions I have. Let's go to the failure thing first. Like, do you think a lot of your success in your life has to do with— and maybe there's a deeper question in here. So do you think it has a lot to do with the fact that you've been able to deal and be okay with failure? And then secondarily, why do you think you are that way? Like, was it the way you were raised? Because like so many people are afraid of failure and like you said, you failed so many times. How are you even capable, I guess, like, you know?

So I'll tell you, I'll tell you, I've got 3 favorite sayings that have guided my life. And, you know, I've taken a lot of comfort in following that very, very thoroughly. Okay, the first one is by Bertrand Russell. And I think it goes like this, it says, to conquer fear is the first step to wisdom.

Hmm, okay, I like that.

Okay, the second one is by Lord Thomas Dewar. It says, the mind is like a parachute, it only functions when open.

Hmm, okay.

And the third is by Benjamin Disraeli, and he said, success is a product of unremitting attention to purpose. So, you know, you work hard, you work hard, you keep an open mind, be able to relate to people, you know, and empathize, be perceptive, and be ready to change, and constantly move out of your comfort zone to test yourself, you know, conquer that fear so you can do something better. And to be honest, I attribute, like I do in the book, in the opening credit for the book, I say that literally all my success has come because of the people I worked with. They were phenomenal. If I was not able to muster their support, I would not have been able to do the difficult things I did. So I think to a large extent, it's the ability, and that's true for any leader, you know, because leaders lead between paradigms, managers manage within a paradigm. This is by Joel Arthur Barker, it's not my saying. If you want to lead between paradigms, it means you're leading between paradigm shifts. And you have to make big changes and you can't do that by yourself, you need teams. And if you cannot hire the right people and lead them, and for them to do great things, you will not succeed. So I credited the book to all the people I worked with and to my wife of 33 years.

Got it. Um, and then that— so my last question, and then I want to leave the floor to you. If there is one thing you'd want, and maybe it's what we just talked about, but if there's one thing you want people to get out of the book, what, what would you say it is?

Well, I think there are two things that I wrote the book to communicate. You know, I said if you want to build a successful business, you cannot opt for speed and unstructured way of working. It invariably leads to failure because we always think there's not enough time to do something right. But we always have time to do it again. And, you know, and sometimes common sense is not common practice. So the whole idea is if you follow the structured way in which you build a business, and I talk about 8 elements of a business that are interlocked. And if you follow a structured business, the probability of success is very high. I tried the same model in 4 very different businesses in 4 different countries. And it has always produced results. The second part is the last chapter of my book. I said, once you learn how to build a company that can last, how do you build yourself to run the company? And I talk about 7 beliefs that are very fundamental to building leadership and building yourself to be able to run and to manage both the complexity and the pressure of running a business.

Gotcha. So yeah, those two things. And I think that's the good cliffhanger right there is what are those 7 beliefs? And to find out, you're going to have to read the book. So that's it. So last thing I want to do, I want to leave the floor to you. And if there's anything we didn't cover that you want to share, please do. And then obviously let people know how to stay in touch with you and where to get the book. So like website, social media, all that stuff.

Yeah. So I mean, you can get the book on Amazon. It's available as a Kindle version. And it's also available as a hardcover. And the audiobook is coming out this week. At the end of this week, I'll have an audiobook. Oh, perfect.

I was just gonna ask that. I was like, do you have audio? Okay, cool.

Yes, I'm getting an audiobook. I had to find the right reader. You know, and I wanted an accent from which would be universally acceptable. So, the audiobook's coming out. And my website is www, my full name, it's a long name, sandeepchennakeshu.com. And you can find, and if you type it, as you start typing my name, it'll probably give you prompts. And you can find out where the website is. I'm also available on LinkedIn and my contact information is there. I do a lot of posts and things like that. So I'm not super socially active. I've never really tried to build my brand. I don't think I have one. So, but I'm trying to actually slowly building, you know, people I can connect with and share various things because I love writing and I write a lot. I write on a variety of topics, especially technologies, especially new technologies, financial and market information, and economics. I'm not a qualified analyst or economist, but I read a lot, so I send my work over to a number of people, a select audience. That's awesome.

Perfect. Well, thank you again for coming on. It was super insightful, and I appreciate it. And who knows, maybe you'll come out with another book, we'll have you on again, and And thanks again for coming on, man.

Thank you so much, Tyler. It's been a pleasure. And thank you again.