Valerie Patrick: How To Make A Good Leader | The Authors Unite Show #1002

Alright everyone, welcome back to another episode. Today we have Valerie Patrick with us. She is a PhD chemical engineer who founded Fulcrum Connection LLC and just published her first book. Book. So welcome to the show.

Thank you. It's great to be here, Tyler Wagner. Of course.

Thanks for coming on. And I'll mention the book title real quick. And obviously at the end, we can say it again, but it's called When Bad Teams Happen to Good People. So first question, I like to ask this question first most of the time. So when you were younger, did you— and younger, I mean, like middle school, high school, Did you think that you would be a chemical engineer? And I'm assuming it's probably no, could be yes. Either way, what was it that, after you answer that, what was it that led you to becoming a chemical engineer?

Well, when I was really young, I liked drawing and painting and music. And in fact, when I went to college, I still took flute lessons. I played in the band in college. And I actually took an art class my freshman year as part of my chemical engineering curriculum. So I was really into art. But the chemical engineering thing came in high school. It actually came— there was a friend of mine who I thought was a really nice kid. And I didn't know what I wanted to do for college. I knew I wanted to go to college. I just didn't know what I wanted to major in. And so I went up to him and I said, hey, what are you going to major in? And he said, I'm going to Penn State and I'm going to be a chemical engineer. And I said, well, why? And he's like, well, I like math and chemistry. So I was like, okay, I like math and chemistry. I'll be a chemical engineer too. So that was kind of the, that's when I decided on the major and I just went through with it from there. But I would say before that, I got an interest in technical things as a result of the first Take Your Daughters to Work Day that my dad had at his company. And my dad worked for a company called Hamilton Standard. And they took us around to see all the different parts of the company, including the space program. So we went in this room and we saw people dressed up in spacesuits and, you know, a mock-up of a spaceship and stuff. But the thing that I remember from that, Tyler, that sticks with me to this day is we went in this one room, and it must have been like an analytical lab or something like that. But it had all this equipment everywhere, all, all around the room. Everywhere you look, there was different pieces of equipment. And all I could think of was, how, how do those things work? What do they do? So I just— that, I think that spurred my curiosity for all things technical, was that Take Your Daughters to Work Day. And that That was a long time ago. It was probably the very first one ever.

Yeah, that's so interesting. I love how sometimes it can be like an event or like a short time period event that can make all the difference. Um, so that's interesting. Um, and then can you tell like what is Fulcrum Connection LLC? What does that do?

So I'm a subject matter expert in teamwork, innovation, and sustainability. And Fulcrum Connection offers instructional design, training, consulting, speaking, and professional facilitation in those areas, in sustainability and innovation, and in all aspects, aspects of teamwork. So that would include leadership, diversity, and inclusion.

Okay, so what, what makes a good leader? That's a big question.

Well, I think there's a lot of ways to answer that question. I could probably answer more quickly what makes a bad leader.

Okay, we could start there.

That's all right. Um, I— well, I think what makes a, uh— so lead— let's start with what leadership is. Okay, so leadership is about changing things for the better. So leadership is not a position. Sometimes it is, sometimes it comes with a title, sometimes it's not. It's really about changing things for the better. So I would say poor leadership is when someone is making changes that are not for the better, and often this happens when a person doesn't listen to people that they should be listening to, or people who might have more knowledge about the situation. So to— in order to change things for the better, I think a very important part of that is working with others because The world, a group, a team, an organization is a system. A system is when there's interdependencies. Any social system, whether it's your family, take your family. Things happen. I think everyone can point to something that has happened in a family because of the way people act or the way people feel. That no one wanted to have happen. Like, these unintended consequences just happen. And so leaders have to be aware that there's interdependencies, and that's why it's so important to involve other people and understand all the different perspectives and aspects in order to be able to make sure you're changing towards something better and not towards an unintended consequence. So I mean, I don't know if that's what you were looking for.

It's good. One aspect of it, a question for you that would be like, I think an important part of like growing in a sense is trial and error. So like trying different things. So, um, as a leader, I guess you could, as long as the end is a better result, are you, but But like along the way to get there, you could potentially make things worse. Obviously you're not trying to do that, but like sometimes to get to a better place, there's a bunch of negatives on the way.

Oh, absolutely.

So is that—

I think that, I think it's an excellent point. And I think that points to another aspect that's very important to leadership, which is mindsets, right? So if, as long as you have the mindset that when you make a mistake, it's an opportunity for you to learn and grow and get better moving forward, that is a quality of a good leader. However, if you have the mindset that when you make a mistake, it makes you look weak, or it takes away from your status, or other people aren't going to look up to you, then you're not going to learn from that situation. And you're going to maybe behave in ways that aren't productive for moving forward. So that would be a sign of a not good leader. So that gets to the very important point is it also takes— good leadership takes having mindsets that help you move forward. And of course, there's always going to be setbacks. We're humans. We're always going to make mistakes. But it's how you react to those mistakes that distinguishes the really good leaders from the less effective leaders.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. And also, it's like, I would think almost promoting— I feel like a lot of companies are doing this now, is they're like kind of promoting more risk in the corporation instead of as before. I feel like it used to be more like just follow the— but it's almost, they call it like an intrapreneur now.

Yeah.

Right? Have you heard this term?

Yes.

And I feel like that's a good leader would, and again, this is all within reason, right? Like you don't want people taking like risks that could like take the company down necessarily, but like, you know, calculated risks.

You know, absolutely. You need to look at the potential upside versus the potential downside and make sure it's a smart risk. But But I'm so glad to hear that because that also is a very important aspect or a foundation for creativity and innovation. You can't change things for the better. You can't do things better unless you change something. And just change in and of itself is taking a risk. So yeah, risk is a very important part of it.

So the title of your book, I want to talk a little bit more about your book.

All right.

It really, uh, strikes a chord with me because it's funny, when I was younger in college, in like high school, yeah, actually everything up to dropping out of college and after. Now, you know, because I run multiple companies, I think I'm a very good person to have on a team. But when I was younger, I was the, the person, uh, on the team that would kind of just wait, you know, to see like who's the— and I— it was typically a girl for some reason. That's who it was. I don't know why. And it would be a group of 4, and there would be this one really smart girl that would end up picking up all of our slack, especially mine, because I just, I just did— had no drive at all when I was younger for school. So is that kind of my point to mention? Is that kind of what the title is, is talking about? Like, yes. Okay.

And your, in your example, it's for that poor girl who was doing all the work. She was the one experiencing the bad team.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I don't know why I was like that, but either way, so that, that is kind of the title. That's what it's meaning.

Yes, exactly. Exactly. There are strategies, there are tactics that anyone on a team can do to improve their lot on the team, whether you're the team leader, whether you're just a member of the team, so on and so forth. Yeah.

So if, let's just say this fake, or persona, this girl, is there any, does the book at all teach how maybe she could have convinced me or other members on the team to be motivated and work just as hard as her? Or—

Yeah. Yeah, that, I do get into that. That's a very important part of teamwork. It starts with motivation. And it needs to be intrinsic motivation. So you need to understand enough about your teammates and what kind of gets them excited. There's this great book by Donna Markova and Angie MacArthur called Collaborative Intelligence, and one of the things that they talk about in the book is something they call thinking talents. And thinking talents are different ways of thinking, and as they describe it, a thinking talent is something that gets you excited, gets you up in the morning, you wanna go and do it. And we each have our own unique set of thinking talents, the types of thinking that we really like to do, that we tend to be good at. And so one of the things that that woman could have done is through a few simple questions, interviews like what we're doing here, could sort of tease out the thinking talents of the different team members And then try to align the work, divide up the work in a way that would tap into what would be your thinking talent. I mean, that's one way to do it, but there's other ways as well. Yeah.

I feel like asking the right questions is kind of the root of a lot of what you want in life in a sense. Meaning like, I just did, for a lot of the people that work for me, I had another company come in and they helped us, they gave us these like questionnaires. Yeah, and it was— and, and I don't know why it seems like such a simple concept, but I didn't think to like send a questionnaire. Because the thing is, this is when you have— when you interview an employee, like there's a— there's face to face, and I feel like it's, uh, it's like avoiding conflict. They don't always want to answer honestly because they feel like you might react in a negative way. Whereas if you give them a questionnaire by themselves, like the honesty that was written I like— it was almost as if I don't know if they knew that I was going to be reading them or something. Like, I was like, like, but it was just overpouringly honest of like, I really don't like doing this, I really like doing this. And then it was able to allow me to kind of steer each of their ships and stay in their lane of genius. Yeah, I mean, it's made all the difference.

So, oh yeah, and I, you know, you're talking about power dynamic, right? If you try to have a one-on-one with an employee, there's a power dynamic there. You can make life really miserable for them. Yeah. Or really great for them. And so they're in this, they're like, okay, I don't want to say anything that's going to trigger something that's going to make life really bad for me. But I want to impress because I want him to do good things for me. So that just, that changes the dynamic of the conversation right there. And unless you have a way to disarm that power differential, that's a really tough— that's a really tough conversation to have and have the honesty that you talked about that you're looking for.

So do you think though, like psychologically, I guess, I mean, they had to have known I was going to read it. I said that I was kidding there, but like, I For some reason, I feel like there was an anonymous or— No, no, it wasn't anonymous either. Yeah, yeah, it was basically like, I mean, there's multiple questions, but the overall premise of it, I believe, kind of the core that we were trying to get information on was what do they like about their current role and what don't they like, right? And that's it. But yeah, But it wasn't just so direct like that. It was like 20 questions that kind of like—

Yeah, yeah, tease it out.

Yeah.

You know, it could be something as simple as a difference of a personality trait, right? If you look at introverts versus extroverts, okay? Extroverts do really well in one-on-one conversations because extroverts think on their feet. They get energized when they're talking live with someone. And I suspect that you, Tyler, are an extrovert.

I think I might be.

Technical people like me tend to be introverts. Now, I tend to be like 60% extrovert, 40% introvert. So I understand both tendencies. But introverts need time to think. They don't think on their feet. They need quiet time to process and think. So one-on-one conversations can be really difficult for them.

I see. Yeah. And that's probably why. So they would go to thinking and then they would probably be like, all right, this is hard. Let me just say what I think he wants to hear real quick.

Yeah.

And move on, which is not the goal of it.

So yeah, that could be— that could play into it. Yeah.

Yeah, that makes sense. And I am like, Definitely the type with like, if I got a form and it asked me to like fill out a bunch of info, I'm the one that types back a one-sentence response because I'm like, I don't want to like think fully. I just want to be like, you know, do you like this? I'm like, yeah, I like it.

Don't ask me why.

All right, it's just, it is what it is. So maybe that's another extrovert thing. Um, so I, I want to ask, because I know in your book too you talk about productivity. So any— the thing about productivity that I think is so interesting, we published a lot of books, um, for people on productivity, and it's one of those topics that like never will go out of style until like robots run our entire lives, I guess. Then maybe it will. Yeah, until then though. Um, so yeah, do you have any productivity tips that you could share? And I'm assuming it's in like a more of a team format is what we'd be looking at.

Yeah, so one of my favorite quotes when it comes to teams are, uh, plans are nothing, planning is everything. And so that talks about it's very important to plan going into a team meeting or an interaction with someone. You know, you want to plan in terms of what is it that— what's the outcome you're looking for? What's the purpose of it? What are the objectives? You know, getting those things clear in your head going into it. And then you also want to think about how am I going to get there? What kind of process do I need? What kind of input do I need from this person? Or do we need to brainstorm? Do we need to— is there a problem we need to identify? You know, those types of things. And then you go into the meeting. But now once you're in an interaction, as we talked about earlier, things could come up that you hadn't anticipated. And you're— it's great to have that plan going in, to do the planning. But if things start not going according to plan, you have to go with it. You have to go where it leads. You might have to say, okay, timeout. This is some new information. I need to think about this. I need to, you know, go away and come back, especially if you're an introvert. Or, you know, maybe you had it wrong. Maybe the outcomes you were looking for, and you realize talking to the other person that you were off base, like, oh yeah, you're right, we need to go in that direction. So, so in terms of productivity, I think the planning piece really helps with productivity. But you need to go, you need to be flexible, that once you're collaborating, if things go in a different direction, to go with it, because that's also going to enhance productivity at the end of the day, that's going to lead to greater impact. You'll get some greater impact faster, let's put it that way.

For sure. So I wanted to ask you too, because I think stories like help, um, people learn a lot. So with like your clients, and maybe you can't share names, but, um, could you share, uh, a story or a couple of like, you know, where they were as far as like maybe their organization, their team, and then, um, kind of what you you saw was wrong and then how you and them together, because it would be a collaborative effort, right? And then the transformation that happened.

Yeah. So I'll have to make it like really abstract, if that's okay. But I remember, you know, as you know, networking often leads to business opportunities. And I happened to be at a dinner with my husband at a university. And met this gentleman who mentioned that this initiative that he was leading was really struggling. They were trying to have their first big meeting with all their stakeholders. It was going to involve hundreds of stakeholders, and they were really struggling, like they were spinning their wheels. And I said, oh, I'm a professional facilitator, like that's kind of what I do. Like, why don't I, you know, if you want, I'm happy to talk to the people involved. So I got on a phone call with, like, the chief operations officer and some other people, and they were in frantic mode, okay? The meeting was 3 weeks away. They were having, like, 200 people coming, and they still didn't know how they were going to get the outcome that they were looking for. And I could just hear the panic in their voice. I mean, they were just going in circles, and we got to do this, we got to do this, we got to do this. And I listened for a while. And at the end of all of the— all of what they had to say, I stopped and I said, it sounds to me like what you need to do is problem finding. And the guy just stopped and said, what? I'm like, yeah, you're at that point in this initiative where you're trying to identify the problems that you want to go after. And he's like, oh my God, that's right. That's exactly what we're trying to do. And I said, well, now that I understand that, I can come up with a meeting design for you to do just that. So it's sometimes it's just cutting through all of the— like they knew what they wanted to do. They were just with so many people coming, they just didn't know what to do. And just to be able to focus on, oh yeah, that is the outcome we're looking for. Maybe they were just getting too far ahead of themselves. And the meeting ended up going great. They got the kind of input they were looking for. But it was just that one simple thing of listening to 3 different people. And they were all actually on alignment of that's what they were trying to do. Yeah.

Got it. So I want to, towards the end of this, I want to ask you more about you, like personally. So we've talked about the professional. So Do you have one?

You're putting a pin in that?

What did you say?

You're putting a pin in that? That you want to come back to me?

Yeah, no, no, I want to talk about more about you as like a person.

Okay.

So like, do you have a, are you pretty rigid with a morning routine or do you not have one at all? And if you do have one, what is it?

I tend to have a morning routine, so I like to listen to Start Here first thing. Uh, it's a podcast by ABC to get, get news. And then I'll have my best day if I get my workout in, um, right after I listen to my podcast and get up and wake up a little bit. So I like to get my workout in, in the morning. I do cardio and strength training, but both very important to me. And, and then I like to watch the weather on NPR because I live in a beautiful area and I want to know how much time I could spend outside. Yeah. And then I pretty much get my breakfast and get to work.

Got it. Okay. Yeah, no, I found— so I'm similar to the cardio every morning. And so do you notice, cause you said your best days are when you work out in the morning. So do you notice a pretty big difference if you skip the workout?

Yes.

How big of a difference?

Like less energy. My brain doesn't connect as well. There's plenty of research studies that tie particularly cardiovascular activity to brain health. And I do notice it. I just feel sluggish. I can't do as many creative things on those days. Um, yeah, I definitely notice it.

Now, if you miss it, then what's the reason? Because I'm at a point where like I can't miss it because it is so much work. Like the day is so much worse that like it would be better for me to like cancel a meeting to get it in. Yeah, you know, like it's that bad. Like it's so dramatic.

So yeah, I— well, you know, I learned a little trick Yeah, from Tony Robbins.

Okay.

And so if I don't get it in, and I have, let's say, an important meeting to go to, or a client I have to talk to, one of the things that he recommends is that you actually jump up and down, like just find a private place someplace and get your blood pumping, jump up and down and be like, arms in the air, I got this, I got this. And it is amazing. It just, it, I mean, it's not the same as the workout, but I do find that that gives me a shot of energy and it does tend to help. So that's a little, that's a little hack I use if I don't get my cardio in, but I get it in. I mean, I have, I don't do, I don't do cardio 7 days a week now. I'm older and I, my, the body just can't take it. I do 5 days a week. And so I have some flexibility. I can, if I have a particularly busy week, I'll push it off to the weekend. I don't like to do that 'cause I like to have my weekends, you know, to do what I want, but.

[Speaker] For sure.

[Speaker] So that helps me too.

[Speaker] Got it. Is that kind of, are you talking, I think he calls them like incantations or something? Like I've tried that where, 'cause I've listened to some of his books and I've actually gone through one of his events. I think it was Date with Destiny. I can't remember which one, but it was an online one. And he talks about how like in the mornings or something or on the way to events, he'll just like scream like at the top of his lungs. Yeah, I'm going to do it. And like, yeah, you do that. It definitely— like, I could have— I've done it, but like, um, I'm just trying to recall. Like, I think cardio for an hour is definitely better, but that can vibrate through you and it definitely picks up your energy.

Yeah, this was, this was at a live event, uh, I want to say maybe 3 or 4 years ago. He talked about it and it was tied to some research around He was working with, I think, athletes, you know, really high-end athletes. And that was something had to do with your emotional state. I think the jumping up and down and saying, I can do this, I can do this, is about charging up your positive emotions and probably some endorphins too, which exercise does great. But it was more about that as I remember.

Got it. So you said, um, you like to do what you want to do on the weekends. So what is that? What do you like to do?

Well, depends on the season. In the winter, I love to downhill ski. In the summer, I live on Lake Champlain, so it's, uh, beautiful clear water to swim in and to boat in. So we do that in the summer. I love to bike, not like, you know, an actual pedal, pedal bike, not electric bike or motorbike, and hike and walk and just about anything I can do outside is what I like to do.

I love it. Yeah, that's what I like. It seems like a cool place. I haven't been. You said Lake Champlain? That's how you say it?

Lake Champlain. At one point it was a Great Lake, but they got kicked out. Why?

Got kicked out of the club?

Got kicked out of the club. Yep. Not quite big enough, I guess. I don't know. It's a beautiful lake. Few people know that the US Coast Guard is situated on Lake Champlain in Burlington because the lake is bordered by two states and two countries. So you've got New York State and Vermont, plus you have Canada and the US.

So, okay, got it. And when would be the— I feel like you're letting out a secret of an amazing place that a lot of people, or maybe I just don't know about it, I don't know. But, um, when would be the best time to visit? Like, oh wow, I'm not a cold person. I like—

fall is, fall is fantastic because, uh, lots of maple trees and the color of the maple trees is, is very well known in Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, that, that whole area. So fall is really beautiful. Lots of different festivals to go to, lots of great beer in Vermont and, and ciders in Vermont, very well known for that. I also, I love spring and summer. Spring, there's so many wildflowers in Vermont that grow everywhere. And summers don't get too hot. So summers are pretty nice as well. But winters are cold. So if you don't like the cold, you should stay away from the winter.

Okay, got it. Now this is good. I, I love lakes. I actually, when I went to college in South Carolina, at the time a girl I was seeing, she lived on Lake Norman in North Carolina. Have you ever heard of Lake Norman?

No.

It's pretty like there. So I live in Miami Beach now. Like, I like the beach life, but I think I like the lake life better. Like, the lake life is, um, it's just a different energy. It's a different. I think what it is, more private, you know, like the beach.

It's more private. Yes, it is more private. And one of the nice, really nice things about Lake Champlain, it has a slate bottom. It's, it's so it's all stone on the bottom, which is one of the reasons it's so clear. And you, I'd recommend you wear water shoes because you can, you know, if you catch like the edge of a stone, that could be bad. But it's not like, you know, on the beach, it's just sand, you know, it's It's not that. So you do have to be a little careful.

As long as they clean up. Sometimes in South Beach, Miami, there's, um, well, there's things you don't know what they are. They're, they're new to the world.

I don't know how they look.

Um, but okay, so I wanna, I wanna leave, uh, the end to you. Like, is there anything that we didn't cover that you want to share? And then after that, um, is, uh, make sure to share, like, where people can get the book, website, and all— and your social medias and stuff.

Uh, I don't know that there's anything we didn't cover. I, I thought it was a really great conversation, so thank you for that.

All right, well, I did my job then. I'll—

you did. You're, you're good. You're very good at interviewing, I'll give you that.

Thank you. I, I would hope so at this point. I'm on that. I need to stop doing this. But where can people stay in touch with you though?

So they can follow me on Twitter @FulcrumConnect. Also have a website, www.fulcrumconnection.com. Those are probably the best ways. And I'm on LinkedIn as myself, Valerie Patrick.

Perfect. Thank you again for coming on the show.

Thank you, Tyler Wagner Wagner. I've really enjoyed it.