073: From Stage Fright to Broadway Star with Sandra Joseph

Hi, I'm Natalie Jill, fat loss expert turned high performance coach. When odds are stacked against us, how do we shift and create everything from nothing? How do we level up when we aren't feeling it yet or we've had a big setback? On this podcast, I'll be talking to some of the most inspiring and courageous men and women on this planet who at their worst, learned how to achieve success greater than they ever dreamed possible. Leveling up and Creating Everything from Nothing. How does a young woman with crippling stage fright become a record breaking Broadway star? Sandra Joseph spent nearly a decade playing Christine in the Phantom of the Opera. Now she's on a mission to empower others and their voices through her work as a keynote speaker and author of her new book, Unmasking what Matters. Welcome Sandra to today's episode of Leveling up and learn exactly how she leveled up and created everything from nothing. Today on Leveling Up, I've got Sandra Joseph, who is an author and a very well known keynote speaker. But what's really extra interesting about her is she is the longest running leading lady on the longest running Broadway show in history, Phantom of the Opera. So I am so excited to talk with her today and dive into your story because, Sandra, thanks for being here. I know that's not who you always were. Take us back. Thanks for being here.

Thanks for having me, Natalie. I'm looking forward to the conversation. No, it's certainly not who I always was. I was the kid who didn't want any part of being in the spotlight. I'm a massive introvert. I was terrified to be in the spotlight in front of people. I went out of my way to hide. I really just had a love of musical theater, love of singing, and I started alone in my bedroom singing to my stuffed animals. I never thought I would be able to do it in front of people because I had such crippling stage fright.

So a lot of little girls, you know, for instance, they act and they sing and they dance and they do all that. Now when you say you were an introvert, were you not even doing it for your family? Was it like one of those super private things or were you doing it just with your family?

I have one sister and my sister and I would kind of do little plays with each other in backyard and stuff like that. But not even in front of my family. No, it was a very private thing. And I was this, you know, shy, timid girl, not at all the personality type that wants to be out there in front of people. So it was A real inward battle. And I think so many of us have those where there's something we love or we feel called to do that we want to do, but the fear of putting ourselves out there can hold us back. And it certainly did for me. I chickened out of the first solo I was ever given in the fifth grade. I saw the crowd panic and backed out at the last second. It was a long journey for me to get to Broadway.

Now as a kid, though, like, even before that solo episode that you backed out of, did your family notice that you had a talent? Was it like, did you know you had a talent or was it what. Who picked up that you had this talent to even audition for that first fifth grade play?

Well, music was loved universally in my household, and I loved singing from the time I was very small. So did my sister, but I think I just sort of thought everyone could sing. I didn't think I had anything particularly special and nor did my family, but I felt this urge. When this solo opportunity came up, I knew it was singing was what I loved, so I decided to give it a shot. And my. My fifth grade music teacher, Mrs. Maters, she gave it to me, my big break. I was all excited, and then I was like, nope, this ain't happening, as soon as I saw the people out there.

So you hadn't really even had any training then, I'm assuming. So no coaching, no training. It was just something you did and then auditioned?

Initially, yeah. Oh, no, I had no training. I didn't start taking singing lessons until I was 16. So it was a long road of pushing. But really, honestly, it was that moment of chickening out of that solo that shifted things for me profoundly. It was a major life lesson.

Stage in Chickened out, or was it before you even start? Like, at what point were you chickening out? Like before when they just. When they casted you, or were you literally on stage and you chickened out?

It was right before the concert was about to start. We were lined up outside the gym, you know, the cafetorium thing. And I. And I peeked and took a peek in the doors. I saw the crowd, and I ran to Mrs. Majors and said, I'm out. So she replaced me on the spot. And then I stood back there, you know, in my spot on the risers in the background. And when the moment for my solo came, I watched my classmate go out there and sing those three lines that I had been practicing in my room for weeks. So I understood in a visceral way at a young age the cost there is when we don't give ourselves permission to do the things we love to do, when we let fear stop us.

Yeah. So did you form a belief pattern around that after that happened?

I really did. I made a vow. I made a personal promise to myself that in the future, no matter how afraid I am, if it feels like a yes in my heart, like something I want to do, I am not allowed to say no out of fear.

Wow.

And that that promise to myself has made all the difference because I. I continue to hold myself accountable to that and. And what I'm doing now as a speaker and an author would not have been possible if I didn't stay true to that promise, because I have had to continue. Just say yes. Even when the fearful part of my brain is saying, no, no, no. Turn, run, go the other direction. I keep inching my way forward.

Did you decide that literally on your own from that, or did you have coaching around that? Like, what did your parents say? What did the teacher say to you? What did the classmates say to you after that happened? Because I would imagine, especially, I'm thinking, Picturing you were 10, 11 years old, that, you know, kids could be cruel. Like, what. What happened? Were people encouraging, like, it's okay, or were they reinforcing that? What was going. How did you get to that decision that I'm going to step into fear?

Well, I was fortunate to have parents who were incredibly supportive of whatever I wanted to do, and they helped me. They helped nurture me through my insecurity and build my confidence. My father, in particular, was very encouraging because he loved theater and the arts, and he didn't want to see me give up on that. And God bless them, they paid for my singing lessons. Then I started training eventually and building my skill set to build my confidence. So it was. It really. I didn't do anything until I was a teenager. So it was a long journey from 10, 11 to high school, and I was trembling through those first auditions and those first performances. But once you get one under your belt, then you're empowered by it, and you can keep going. First is worse. But once you do that first one, you go, okay, I didn't die. I didn't die. Maybe I could do it again.

What was the first one you did decide to do, and what was the process, talking yourself through that?

Well, my first show that I ever did was. It was actually the show that I fell in love with as a kid was Annie. And there are many people of my generation for whom Annie was the show that we all sat There going, yes, I wanted to do her. I wanted to be that red headed girl up there so desperately. Well, it took me until I was 16, bit long in the tooth to play the little orphan. But Annie was my first leading role in high school. And it was the scariest thing and the most thrilling thing that I had ever done.

Oh, wow, that's. I mean, that's. I can imagine. And I totally remember Annie. In fact, I did that in elementary school. That was where we must be close in age. I remember that. It was a big. Annie was big.

It was big.

So you did it and did. And you said the first was worse. And so it started getting easier. Did you ever imagine you would then become so amazing on Broadway? Did that ever cross your mind at that point?

I was studying and doing shows all through high school and college, but I did not major in music or theater. I got a communications degree because I knew what the odds were of making it and doing it as a career. I thought that was absolutely ludicrous. But I continued studying with. I had a wonderful voice teacher and wonderful acting coaches. Those were all my elective courses in college and. But when it came time to decide, okay, do I stay home in Michigan and get a sensible job or do I try to actually do this thing that I love, that I'm passionate about? That was when I had to really dig deep and go back to that promise I made to myself, to not let fear hold me back. And my parents encouraged me to just try. You know, they said, my dad said, what if you give yourself a time limit, go for five years. If it doesn't work out, you can always come back home, but at least you won't spend the rest of your life wondering what might have been.

Yeah, no, I, I'm wondering, you know, as I'm listening to you, there's a lot of people that can relate to being scared and then talking themselves into something. But then there's a pattern that I've seen happen a lot of people too where they, they're scared, they talk themselves into it and then they get feedback. They don't like, like rejection or something happens and it could be just one comment or one and it throws them into a tailspin. But did that ever come up? Did you have rejection? And how did you face that?

Oh my gosh. Well, I went to New York with my five year plan and four and a half years in I was rejected all over New York City, living on a friend's sofa. I was in debt, all my credit cards maxed out and they say, you know, it can take 50 to 100 auditions before you get a single job. And I don't know how many I did, but it was brutal. I mean, imagine going to that many job interviews, and I can't even.

Yeah. Did you have to keep talking yourself into, like, it's not me? Like, how did you not quit with that?

Oh, it was hard. And there were plenty of times that I was, you know, under the covers in tears and thinking that I'm a joke, and this is the stupidest decision I've ever made. What was I thinking? Who do you think you are? You know, all those voices were so loud. And there were plenty of times when I felt like gonna have to go back home with my tail between my legs and admit that, you know, I'm a huge failure. And even once I was getting some traction, getting, like, my first Phantom audition, I did not get the job. It took me three tries before I landed the role that finally changed my life. But that was after years of rejection and struggle and almost quitting and giving up.

Why didn't you give up, I'm wondering? Because that, like, you said that you. There's somebody that had that voice in their head before, and now you've got all of this, like, four and a half years of evidence that it's not working so far. Like, I'm. I wouldn't curious about that, because I know someone listening is like, but how do you get to that? Like, how do you get through that?

Yeah. Yeah. You know, Natalie, I think about that a lot. I try to go back to who was I at that age? You know, I'm in my early 20s. I'm. I'm just out of college. Number one. Being in New York was incredibly exciting and thrilling. Even though I was failing, I had friends, and that support was helpful. But also, I think I would get just enough. Every once in a while. I would get, like, a singing and acting job on a cruise ship for six months. Then I would do a small show where I'm paid $200 a week and still to have a survival job. But I loved it so much. And I think that's what kept me going is like, I feel like if you love something and you feel that pull from your heart, the love outweighs the fear. And something in me intuition. I don't know what. It felt bigger than me and something. A larger voice. Then my ego said, don't give up yet. Keep. Keep moving forward. Just the next step. The next step. You can't see what might be coming around the corner. I just had that faith. I don't know, I just, I kept believing in it.

That's so powerful. And I know people listening can really, because there's a lot of people listening that it's like they, they wonder, is my year of failure too much? Is my two year like. Like it's like, when do you give up? And here I'm listening to you, you're saying four and a half years in, you're getting, not making a lot of headway. And you just kept going. And it's just. And it was on the other side of that.

Yes, it was on the other side of that. And I will tell you, I'm having a parallel journey in this second career as an author and speaker. It's almost an exact replica of what I went through the first time where it began with this intuition, this love, this pull, what felt like a calling. And then it took a heck of a lot of faith and failure and rejection and really going through all the same stuff of this was a mistake. What was I thinking? And it took far longer than I. Than I wanted it to. Than I thought it might for me to find my way. But when we had those downloads, I mean, I. I think it for me, both becoming an actress and moving towards becoming a messenger, they were both callings. They felt bigger than me.

Yeah.

And when we feel that, you know, it could be a whisper, an inkling, it doesn't have to be where you hit over the head, but when you have that inner knowing, I think that's enough to keep you inching your way forward.

I love that inner knowing. And it sounds like you had a nice support system too.

Of.

And I'm talking even like about the first experience too support system. Because I think sometimes when people go into the self beat up of this is not working, and then if they have other people validating that it's not working, you should quit, you know, then you've got that double whammy. It sounds like you had a good support system, at least believing in you.

Yes, as a kid I had it with my parents. As an adult, I've found it with. Well, certainly with my husband, but also with coaching and mentoring and that the role of other people cannot be overstated. You need somebody in your corner. I mean, I remember when I was in those early years in New York and failing and being broke, one of my voice teachers kept. I went to him finally one day and I said, I have to stop taking lessons because I am flat broke. Like I was not eating. And he Said, I believe in you so much that I'm gonna. And it makes me cry. He said, I'm gonna keep teaching you because I know you're gonna make it, and once you do, you'll pay me back. And he taught me on credit until I got my big break, which was right around the corner. So, yeah, the role of people supporting us is huge.

Yeah, I just got chilled. That is amazing. And I believe so wholeheartedly that somebody else believing in you that powerfully makes us believe in ourselves even more.

It absolutely does. And we can all find that kind of support, you know, and one of my jobs on this earth now is to support other people. I don't do it through coaching. I'm not a coach. But I. I hope that by hearing my story, you know, where someone's hearing this for a reason right now, and I hope that they will feel that support coming from you, coming from me. I mean, we need one another's stories and to share our honest experience and say, you've got this. Don't give up on yourself too soon. Don't let the first no or the first 50 no's you.

So tell me about then. Okay, so when you actually got the big break, when it happened, did it feel like a big break? What was going on through your mind? What did it feel like then and how did it continue so long?

Great question. So well, it did feel like a big break because I was, as I said, living on a friend's couch like the flat broke. And I got the chance to audition for Christine and Phantom, which my teachers had been telling me for some time that I was the right type for, you know, it was a perfect fit for me. And I went into audition and still I was so terrified that I kind of froze. I didn't really give a strong audition, so I didn't get the part the first time. But they put me in the ensemble, in the chorus on the national tour. So I began in a smaller role. I did that for an entire year, at which time the actress who was playing the lead, Christine, gave her notice and they. She was doing another show. She left and they were looking for a replacement. So I got to audition a second time and kind of got in my own way again and this time went over the top. Do you ever, like over prepared for something and you're trying so hard to be perfect and over deliver that you come across as was pushy and too much. That's what I did in the second audition and I went back to the chorus. I did not get it. Luckily, they decided to give me one more shot. And I really, I went to the supervisors of the show, I talked to them. I owned up to the fact that I was getting in my own way. And really out of the fear of not being good enough, you know, if we believe we're really not worthy, then it's very easy to trip over our own two feet. So I said, you know, if I'm ever given another shot, I'm gonna just stop all this nonsense and just go in there and be real. And it really, you know, the mindset shift for me was after I failed the second time, and I thought, okay, I've hit the glass ceiling now. This is as far as I'm ever going to get. I'm going to be in the chorus on a tour. And I had to really come to terms with that and say, you know what? I can look at that one of two ways. I can say, well, woe is me. I'm never going to be the star of the show. Or I can realize, you know what, a year ago, I was busting my butt in the mail room at the bank of Tokyo for 200 bucks a week, not making any money. And a lot of people would trade places with me to be in the chorus of this success, successful show. So I, I went in when they gave me the third chance. I went in from a place of gratitude and sufficiency. I wasn't as needy, you know, that grasping, clinging, drivenness that was getting in my way. So I went in and space of surrender where it was like, you know what, God, if this is meant to be, this will be, and if it's not, it's not. And I will be okay. And I was able to just focus on what I love to do. Just go in there, stand on this Broadway stage, sing this beautiful song and enjoy it. Be present for it. Be in the moment. Be in the energy of love and abundance and gratitude. And that shifted the way I showed up. There's so many completely different.

Yeah, I just wrote down so many just bullets from that that you said that really, I want people to really hear. Because these things are a theme with people that overcome hardships and create success. And you said it several times. But gratitude, being appreciative and having gratitude for the moment and where you are, the belief that it's possible, being accountable. You didn't blame anyone. I love that, like a lot of people would go into victim mode and blame. You didn't blame anyone. You were fully account. And the surrender was huge. And then being present that's another thing that I think people tend to overlook. We're so focused on what didn't work or in the past or what we don't have in the future or what we want. We're not actually being present. And you just named all those things, which is, I believe, your formula for your recipe right there.

Yes. Wow. Thank you for that reflection. That's it. Those were all. That was the recipe. That's absolutely accurate. Yeah.

So then 17 years in that role. That's incredible. I mean, you're the first and only one that's done it that long, right?

It was 10 years. I was in it for 10 years.

Okay. I don't know where else.

Yes, yes, 10 years. It was a long time, though. Yes. I played Christine all across the country on the national tour for two years. After a year of being in the chorus, then I went on to Broadway, got the big promotion, and I stayed there for almost a decade. And it changed my life in ways I could never have imagined. I married my co star, the Phantom is my husband. Crazy. And that whole journey gave me a platform for what I'm doing now, which to me is. Is actually even more rewarding.

So tell me about making that decision, to leave that and start your own journey.

It was a crisis really for me. I mean, first of all, Christine's supposed to be a teenager, so that was no longer going to happen to me. You know, when they did the movie, Emmy Rossum was the actress who played Christine. She was 16 when she was cast in the role. Now, I was not 16 when I was cast and I stayed for a decade. So TikTok, it was time to go. But the real crisis was I had been feeling for quite some time that I was complete with the whole Phantom journey, my whole Broadway journey. And this had been the only thing I had loved and really wanted to do my entire life. So when I felt like, oh, oh dear, I'm done with like. I felt like I wanted to wrap it up in a bow and surrender it and move on to what was next, but I had no idea what that would look like. And that one, you know. A year after I left the show, I was diagnosed with a tumor on my brain stem which threatened to take away my ability to sing.

Wow.

And that was the moment when I really got real with myself about being clear about what I wanted. As it turned out, the tumor was. Did not need treatment and it has not grown. It's still there, but they're just watching it and it's fine. It's been A long time now, and it's fine. But when I found out about that, I was like, okay, it's time to really own how you want to use your voice. And I wanted to do something else. I did. And it was a download moment again, where I had been praying and journaling and meditating and asking for guidance from the truest place within me about what the heck I was gonna do. I'm telling you, I was looking into getting a real estate license or opening up a little clothing boutique. I mean, I just was. Everything was on the table, and I prayed, use my life. Just use my life. And one night, I would imagine any.

Kind of internal battle because, like, sometimes you fell into this identity. Now, you were. You had this one identity. You were Christine, Phantom of the Opera.

Yeah.

That's what you were. And did you go through that battle at all? Like, okay, so especially when singing is being threatened and your age is threatening it, everything. It's like, okay, well, who am I? Did you have that conversation at all going on?

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's so easy to get trapped inside of an identity and the roles that we play and to feel like, okay, who am I without this? And that was a real crisis. When I was told that I might lose my ability to sing because of this tumor, I thought, well, who am I without my voice? That's the thing. We all have our thing that we think defines us in some way that makes us us. And there was a moment from Phantom that became a profound teacher for me when I was going through that. If you think about the journey of my character in the show, what her role is, that she first sees the Phantom without his mask, this flawed person, and she runs away in fear. But by the end of the play, she looks at. Directly at him in his most vulnerable state, and she feels such love and compassion for him. And what I got was that I would play that scene night after night for 10 years, but I would go home. And I wasn't able to give that same kind of compassion and acceptance to the flawed person I saw in the mirror.

Wow.

Until I was facing the possibility of losing everything. My father died the year after I left the show, and he was my person. I had this tumor diagnosis. Now everything's gone. My starring role is gone. My voice might be gone. The person who sees the best in me is gone. Who am I without any of those roles?

Yeah.

And what I. What I got to was, I'm still worthy. There's someone worthy of love and acceptance. It was, again, a huge moment of surrender and A profound shift in my identity because I no longer.

Yeah. How did you get to that? Because I know there's. I love that you did get to that, and that's amazing, and it is the truth. But how did you get to that? Did you. Was it personal development? Was your own reflection? Like, what did you do to get to that point?

I've been on the personal development path and spiritual journey for my most of my life, certainly all of my adult life and therapy and, you know, all of it. But there really was a moment that I recall when, you know, sometimes we have those moments where it's like the veil is lifted and we can see more clearly. And it was in the midst of the diagnosis, I was waiting for the decision from a tumor review board at Mount Sinai in New York that they were going to decide whether or not I was going to have to have radiation. And if the decision was yes, then within days, potentially, I would no longer be able to sing, and I would have a speech impediment the rest of my life.

Oh, my gosh, how scary.

Yeah. I would imagine it was. It was January in New York. It was snowy and cold. And I was walking my dogs through our condominium complex in New Jersey, and I saw this elderly woman just down a hill watching television. And something about just seeing this woman alone there made me reflect on my own journey. I kept looking at her and wondering what she has lived through, and. And I thought, will I get the privilege of being her age? Because it wasn't just about the potential of losing my voice. When you have a tumor on your brain stem, you're thinking about losing your life. Yeah, that's where my head was going. And I recognized so much of my life has been spent striving to become this perfect, idealized image I have of myself. And if I don't get the privilege of time, I would have to accept myself just as I am. Like, I was still holding out, that someday maybe I'll get to this perfect version of Sandra.

Wow.

But that was the shift was when I got that, you know, what if I may not get. I might not have those older, wiser years to become the person I think I should be. So what if I had to just drop the idealization? And it's like a mask that I was putting on myself. The idealized image that we want to present to the world or to present even to ourselves. And so I thought, if I don't have the time to lose another pound, to gain another achievement, to become this perfect version of myself, I will have to accept who I am as I am. And when I thought about that, it was like the shackles were removed from me and I suddenly got that, oh my God, I was okay all along. I never had to be that perfect version of myself. Because all of us as we are, and it doesn't mean we stop striving, but we can accept and love ourselves as we are. And that again, changes our whole orientation to what we're becoming. We come from gratitude, appreciation, surrender, presence, all the things we've been talking about. So it was a relearning all over again in a much deeper way that's so incredibly powerful.

And it's so. I love that you're sharing this and that you had so much wisdom, because many people listening do not have that wisdom yet. But what's so interesting is if you think about. And anyone listening, if you think about anyone that you love or that you care about you, you love them for them, not for who they are, the role that they're playing, you know, or the image that they're holding, or the mask, as you call it. And if you think about like a parent loving their child, even like you love them for them, who they are. But it's crazy that we all on our own selves don't love ourselves for just being that we feel that we have.

Absolutely. That's it. That's absolutely it. And having reached the pinnacle of my profession and achieved this dream that I never thought was possible for me, the biggest takeaway from that for me too was the confidence that you think is there, it ain't there. The view from the top is rarely what we think it's going to be. So we can spend a lifetime trying to climb higher and do better and be more. And the research is so clear on this that success does not bring us a sense of self worth. It's a shift in identity that gives us what we're really looking for. It's a journey inward, not so much the journey upward, but once we've embraced that we're enough as we are and we're able to love ourselves as we are and befriend ourselves, then it just becomes fun. Then you can strive, you can go for it, you can be full out without trying to gain a sense of who you are from that. Because who you are is profoundly enough. We were born profoundly enough.

Wow, that's so profound and it's so insightful. Just everything you're saying. I love this now when you had that moment and you had that thought, did you have a Feeling after that of like you felt that safety or was it a process after that, or what gave you, after that moment, that permission to sort of step into whatever it is that you wanted.

It was still a process, and it continues to be a process. But that profound shift in who I think I am has lasted and I've grown into it more and more over the years. But it's certainly a process of shedding the old identities and the old ego stuff. And it doesn't mean that I don't still come up against my own insecurities and self doubt and all of those things that we all as humans come up against from time to time. But it was an incredibly powerful shift and something I continue to return to. And I think we can all find practices that help us return to who we really are. Whether it's meditation, just getting away from the noise, finding a moment of peace and recognizing, you know, when I feel most whole, most alive. It's not necessarily when I'm doing the things I'm, you know, out in the world. It might be sitting alone in nature, looking at the trees, when all of a sudden my heart is so full.

Yes.

And I remember who I am.

It's amazing how nature can do that. It's like it's such a simple thing and I feel it's lacking from a lot of people's life. But you're right. Just being outside in nature and just connecting to that is so powerful, it's.

So important, is vital for me. And I travel a great deal and being in airports and on air, on, you know, environments are not filled with nature. It's just. I need it. Like food.

Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you on that. I believe it's like a full connecting to the source. Like just being out in nature is connecting to that again and realizing that we are.

Natalie. Yes. And I think there's something about the beauty of nature and being exactly as it is. You know, nothing in nature, nothing in the natural world apologizes for itself. Nothing in nature is trying to be other than what it is. Yeah. It just stands in it in its glory. And it's such a powerful example. And mirror.

Yep. I was walking this morning and there's a. There's two swans at a lake that I live at. And I was watch this one swan had disappeared for a few weeks and I didn't know where it was. And I was worried about the swan, thinking it's. Did a coyote eat it? Like, what's going on? Where's the swan? And Then all of a sudden the other day, I see both swans together, but there's a little swan. I don't know if it's a duckling, what it was a baby swan called. And it was so pure and cute and I just remember, I just thought, God, okay, so the swan went away to the hatchet say, you know, to have the baby swan to watch that and. But like just watching the swan and the baby swan and like how simple and how I'm like, that is a reminder of what it's all about. Like, that's was such a simple thing and just watching this pure like love just for being the baby swan and being a swan, it was such a reminder. And that might sound wacky, but it's those little things that bring me back and maybe you too, to like what really matters and being present and surrendering.

Absolutely. That's absolutely it. And you know, that's, that's why I call my book Unmasking what Matters. I could have written a book that was about, you know, go for your dreams and move through your fears and that's all part of it. But at the end of the day, it really is those moments like you seeing the swans and recognizing what really matters about life and about how am I going to show up for it and what kind of experience do I want to have in this life? How can I stay connected to what really matters?

Yeah. So tell us about the book. Where was it born from, what it's about? I love that and I love that you said you could have written it because there's enough books on do more strategy. Like I love that your book is not that. Tell us about that and where it came from.

And yeah, well, that's the book took me forever to write. I knew that I wanted to write a book for probably 10 years before I actually rolled up my sleeves and got busy. And then it took another five, six, seven years to get it. Actually part of the struggle, part of the struggle of it was exactly what we're talking about. You know, I recognized that I had a lot to share about things like peak performance and achieving dreams that feel out of reach to you. But I also could not be in integrity and only say that because my own experience showed me that as I said, the journey up is nothing without the journey in. And I needed to find a way to say, yes, let's go for it. Let's play full out in life, but let's also make sure we're coming from a sense of authentic self worth and self love. Because without that you're going to get. You might get the dream, but you still won't be fulfilled and you'll still be unhappy. You might be more unhappy. You'll get there and you go, this is the thing I always thought was going to make everything okay. And I'm here and I recognize, oh, no, I'm no different. So I still have. I still have problems. Now I have a whole new set of problems because the stakes are so much higher and other people are counting on me. And what's that pressure like? Yeah. So I had to find a way right now.

Are you reading my life? Everything you're saying is so spot on.

Yeah. You know, achieving the success we want and then sustaining. Sustaining it year after year.

Yeah.

It is not for the faint of heart. You get bigger problems. How can we support each other? Yeah, the problems get bigger.

The bigger the problems.

Yep, that's right. And the higher you climb, the farther you fall. So what do we do about that? So I'm really unmasking, in a way, what is behind quote, unquote, success. And I want us to have real success, authentic success, which without staying close to what matters to us and aligned with our own values, we can have, you know, all the money, all the external masks of success, but be really unfulfilled and unhappy. So in the book, I aim to explore what we have been talking about, both the upward journey and the deep inward journey, so that we can really know who we are behind the mask and recognize our worth and value and go for whatever it is that wants to be expressed through us while we're here. I love this.

It's incredible. And how do you define success now?

Oh, I love that question. There's a quote. Was it EB White? I may be getting that wrong, but that I think about a lot. It says every day I wake up torn between the desire to save the world and to savor it. And it makes planning, he says it makes planning the day difficult. I certainly don't have the answers here to how we do this, but I recognize the need in my own life for a balance between doing and being. And what that looks like may change on a daily basis. But I think fundamentally what we all want is to be who we are and use what we've got to make an impact. To leave Bishop Desmond Tutu said, do your little bit of good where you are, those little bits of good that together overwhelm the world. So that's success to me, is to do my little bit of good while not becoming overwhelmed myself and so busy that I end up staring at a screen all day instead of being present in the world and taking the time to look at the swans and notice when one is missing. And to be with my husband, really be with him and my family and the people I love, my friends not constantly distracted by my to do list. And how do we work that out? I don't know. I'm still trying every day.

Yeah, but you're doing it because you've got the awareness and you have a book that talks into this. And I, and I love this and I, I love the importance of this message and it is what it's all about, that surrendering and being present. And I don't know that I've ever interviewed somebody that's uber successful that hasn't noticed that. They need that in their life. They need that, you know, like they'll look at somebody with a simple job working for somebody and fantasize about that. Like what would it be like just to have that? Just to go show up for a few hours and not have any stress or worry. So I love that you have this reflection and I can't wait to read the book. So it's, it sounds.

Oh, thank you.

Yeah. So now, so now your book, You've got your book. Where can people find your book anywhere?

Oh, it's everywhere. It's on Amazon, it's on my website, sandrajoseph.com and all the online places, ibooks and Kindle and all that good stuff. Yeah, thank you. Thanks for asking. And there is a companion journal that you can get on my website. I have a lot of exercises in the book practices and the journal helps you unpack those and that's available@sandrajoseph.com unmasking.

Oh, sounds amazing. And where are you active on social Sandra? So where people can find you on there?

I'm in all the usual places at Sandra Joseph. I'm not the most active. I'm working on it.

That's okay.

You're out being honest about that.

You're out being present. You don't need to be.

It really is true. It's hard for me to be on screen.

I love that. I do have a final question that I ask every guest and I can't wait to hear your answer. So if somebody is listening right now and they're in their own personal rock bottom spot, whatever that is, maybe they've been told to know many times. They're on their last, you know, they can't put money together to eat or whatever, their own Personal rock bottom. May be they've got that tumor diagnosis and it's not, they're not, they don't have the best news on that. What would you give them as far as advice? If you were to give them three things they can start doing right now to start shifting and leveling up and creating everything from nothing, what would you tell them?

The first I would think I would offer would be to really practice self compassion, to be your own best friend in these moments. Because the negative voices can be loud, the fearful voices can take over. So to really practice treating yourself the way you would treat a friend who is going through a similar struggle, speak to yourself in that kind, gentle voice and, and treat yourself with the same care that you would treat someone you love who's going through something similar. I think we don't put enough emphasis on really taking care of ourselves and we're really good at taking care of other people. But when it comes to nurturing ourselves, most of us have a long way to go. Yeah. And to recognize that you're not alone, you're not alone. So many people have been where you are and have come out the other side. And sometimes a short term negative can turn into a long term positive. And the final thing I would say is what is this here to teach you? We can always ask of our most difficult circumstances. What can I learn? What can I learn from this that's going to help me get through it and it's going to empower me on the other side. And you will get to the other side. I am here to testify that some of my darkest, worst moments of loss, of anguish, of disappointment have become my most powerful and most empowering teachers over time.

Yes. Oh, that's so powerful. Thank you so much for this today.

Thank you, Natalie. It's just a privilege to be here with you. Thank you.

Thanks for leveling up with us today. Please share this episode if you found it helpful so others can join in. And don't forget to hit that subscribe so you don't miss out on future shows. And if you would leave me a five star review. I appreciate those so much. I read all of them and it's how I know that I'm giving you information that you find valuable. And come interact with me over on Instagram at nataliejofit. I read all the direct messages and comments over there. Make it a great day. Creating everything from nothing.

Sam.