098: Why Niching Down can Explode Your Business with James Patrick

Hi, I'm Natalie Jill, fat loss expert turned high performance coach. When odds are stacked against us, how do we shift and create everything from nothing? How do we level up when we aren't feeling it yet or we've had a big setback? On this podcast, I'll be talking to some of the most inspiring and courageous men and women on this planet who at their worst learned how to achieve success greater than they ever dreamed possible. Leveling up and creating everything from nothing. James Patrick today is an award winning and internationally published commercial and editorial photographer. He's a best selling author, founder of the fitposium Conference which is one of the largest conferences for fitness brands and businesses. But this was not who James always was. It was shifting into focusing and specializing that exploded James career. Join in today to learn exactly how James Patrick leveled up and created everything from nothing. Today on Leveling Up, I'm so excited to talk with James Patrick who I met when I was fitness modeling. He was one of the first photographers that I shot with. He is best known for fitness photography, although people that really get to know him know that he's actually a serial entrepreneur, a very smart serial entrepreneur. He is the creator and founder of fitposium Conference, which is a large fitness entrepreneurship conference and he's now venturing into even teaching photographers how to make that their career, how to uplevel like he has. So, James, thank you so much for being here today. I'm dying to jump into how you got started doing what you're doing and then why you've like decided to even shift out of that. So thank you for being here.

Oh, Natalie, thank you so much for having me. I know we reconnected. It was last October. We reconnected after years and it's so amazing to have these conversations going again. So thank you so much for having me on.

It's funny too to reconnect you like total different roles. Like I literally met you as fitness photographer, you met me as fitness model. And like that's not how I would define either one of us right now. So that's sort of fun.

You know what, it's interesting because I find it more concerning where you come across someone, let's just say, we'll just say they're an aspiring fitness model and 10 years later you run into them again and you say, what are you doing? Well, I'm an aspiring fitness model that I'd be more concerned with the fact that you have evolved so much in really a very finite amount of time and just keep it's almost like if you are to look at your LinkedIn profile, just more and more job titles just added to your profile.

Thank you so much. I love it. I love it. Okay, James, so take us back. I got a lot of questions for you. First and foremost, I want to know, like, how did you even get started as a fitness photographer? Like, where did that come from? Were you interested in fitness? How did you get to shoot all these big covers? Like, you've done a ton of covers, worked with a lot of, like, top level people. How did that even start?

It's interesting because, and this might be a common theme throughout this conversation, but photography, period, was not a plan of mine. Actually, very specifically, remember the first time I picked up a camera, I was in junior high and I found my father's 35 millimeter Canon AE1. Any camera nerds know what that camera is because it was such. It was such a workhorse camera for decades. And I thought, oh, it might be interesting to be a photographer. And I remember the words my father said, he said, you know, that's a really expensive hobby. Okay, So I put the camera back down and I went back to doing what I was doing at the time, which was writing. I was a writer, and when I got into college, I was a journalist, and I was working as a journalist when one day I had to go out on assignment and my editor came to me and said, james, I need you to take this staff camera. We're out of staff photographers. They're all out on assignment. I need you to take a staff camera. I need you to start taking photos to go along with your articles. And for me, I looked at like, well, do I get paid more? Yes. Okay, that's two bylines. I'll do it. And the photos were terrible, mind you, they were not good. But the more I did it, the more I started to like, not that I liked it more than writing, but the fact that I can now control more elements of my piece. Like, it wasn't just the written piece, it was now the visual component that was going along with the written piece. And that was really, really vibing with me.

So I love that you just shared that, by the way, James, because actually I see. I don't even know if you see this, but I see a connection with top photographers and storytelling ability. So both the fact that you liked writing and you were journalists makes sense how you evolve photography to be so powerful because a really good photographer knows how to tell a story.

Storytelling, for me is everything in what I do from. And if. If I were to add up all the job titles that I've had through my career, like photographer, writer. I've also been a photo editor, I've been a newspaper editor, I've been a magazine editor, I've been a designer, I've been a creative director, I've been a public speaker, a podcaster, an author, all these things. It's all storytelling. I worked in marketing. I worked in marketing for the better part of a decade. That is storytelling. It's how you craft and how you communicate stories to your intended audience. So that was just. Photography was just another component of that.

Yeah. And then how to get niche into fitness, of all things.

So after college, I resisted photography and I resisted photography out of a really, a subconscious fear of, well, I don't know any professional photographers. And so that must not be a thing. That must not be something that one could do, which is just photography. So right out of college, it was before I graduated, I was offered a job in marketing and it was the safe job. It was the corporate gig, it was the 401k and it was the benefits. And I thought, okay, well, I'm in my early 20s, I have the corporate gig. I guess this is it. I guess this is what I do, which is, you know, and I was making decent money. It's not like the money was bad, but. And the work at first was fun and challenging. I enjoy, I actually enjoyed working in marketing. But after so many years, like I'm still taking photos in all my free time, like every minute of free time, I'm devoting to making pictures or growing this photography business. If I had a one hour lunch break, I'm calling potential clients.

Wow. Like, it was clearly your passion.

Oh, without, without question. Despite how much I was trying to avoid it, because I really tried. I'm like, oh, you know, and this is, this is interesting. Like when I would go to, let's say a networking mixer, which when you're marketing, you're always at a networking mixer. People would come up and say, what do you do? I never said I'm a photographer. Because you say that. It's like, it's like if, if I were to come up to you, Natalie, 10 years ago. So what do you do? You're not going to tell me? Well, I'm a fitness model.

Right.

Like, okay. Because I'm afraid of what people might think. Yeah, well, what does that mean, you're a photographer? I don't, I don't understand that. Yeah.

Like they put you in a lump of like what they believe that Is, uh huh.

Yep. And more important, like, who are you to be a photographer? Like, I don't. I don't even know if I look like a photographer because, you know, it's just like all this uncertainty and fear kind of swelling around what that was. But yet I'm still growing my business until the recession started.

Okay.

And the recession started and I started losing all my freelance clients because they're going out of business.

And what were your freelance clients were? Not necessarily fitness, I'm assuming, Correct?

No. At the time, I did everything as a photographer.

Weddings, anything.

Almost. Almost everything. Yeah. I never did a wedding. I got hired for a wedding once. I got fired the day of the wedding. So it was a sign from the universe not to ever shoot a wedding.

So not to get too sidetracked here, but I'm wondering if this. Because I think people would want to know this too. I'm assum. A little bit of a lesson in specializing in something. It's like just doing everything.

Yep. Because when I did everything, there was no reason to recognize my work from anyone else's work because why just. Just hire the next guy? Just hire the cheaper guy. Because we all shoot the same. So why would you hire me if I cost $1 more? There's no reason.

Got it. So you weren't specializing.

Yep, yep. Just hired the jack of all trades person. And so I looked at this when the. When the economy started to slide and I'm losing all my freelance clients, most of it. Like magazine clients, nonprofit organizations, I mean, all across the board. And a lot of them are going out of business or they're tightening their budgets. And I'm looking at them like I just. I'm not making money anymore as a photographer. Like I was growing it. No, I'm not. So thank God I have this marketing job, my safe job. Thank God I can just focus on that and maybe I'll put my camera up. Maybe. It was fun in college. And that was my flash in the pan, and that's what it was. And now this is my life. Waking up at five in the morning to go into my office wearing a tie and drinking stale coffee. And something about that wasn't sitting well with me. So I said, okay, let me try one last thing. I really want to just give this one last push. And what I ended up doing was I said, well, I really want to just focus on one thing because maybe, just maybe if I became the best at one thing, at least I could get that work. Now I'm a huge, huge nerd. So I read a voracious amount, and I start reading magazines like Entrepreneur Magazine, Forbes Magazine, Inc. Money. And I'm reading about trends in the economy, like, the economy slipping. But there are certain rising industries. One of the rising industries is health, fitness, and wellness. And I'm thinking, okay, well, if I were to look at my portfolio, I absolutely, absolutely love working with athletes. Like, something about athletes resonates with me. It's the individuals who constantly are pushing to pursue perfection, knowing they'll never achieve perfection, but always wanting to get closer, knowing that that time is finite before they. How close can I get to perfection before that time expires? To me, that's amazing. It resonates with me. It vibes with me. I love seeing that. And to be able to creatively capture that and show that, well, those were some of the strongest images in my portfolio. And I said, well, let's give this a try. Because no one else is really saying, I shoot sports and fitness portraiture at that time. Yeah, no, not really. I mean, you have sports photographers who are at the games. But I did that when I worked for a newspaper, and I didn't really like it. So what about creative portraiture of athletes? And then I said, well, if I'm going to do this, I have to build a new book of work. I have to find the clients that are hiring for this. So who are the magazines in my area? Who are the magazines in my region? Who are the magazines nationally, internationally? Who are the commercial clients? Where's the money, basically? And I reverse engineered it. All right, well, here's a list of all the clients that I need to be working with. I wrote it out. Here's a list of all the commercial companies that I could target. And I'm not, you know, I'm in my early 20s. I'm not shooting campaigns for Nike and Reebok. So I'm not listing Nike and Reebok. I'm listing companies that are horizontal to my skill set, horizontal to what I can do. And maybe then one step up, if I. If I'm really hard, okay? And I built a new book of work, intentional new book of work. I found people I wanted to work with. I made the images that I saw in my mind that I needed in my book. And then I started shopping that book around immediately, like, right away, I started shopping it around, and it took off. It took off fast. Because now I'm the one chasing a specific set of clients with a specific set of work, developing a specific style, and no one else is competing against me. And Even when people would start to compete against me. Guess what? I've now been doing it longer, so I now have more specialization than it. Good luck trying to compete against me now. You know, you flash forward the timeline. That was 10 years ago. You flash for the time. 10 years. Yeah, lots of people can compete with me now. But back then, no, no, I was. I was running that.

That's so key. And I hope people are really hearing this and taking that message away, because I think that when you do focus on going deep on one specific avatar, one specific angle, that is where people thrive. And I think too many people get so spread thin. I've been guilty of it, too, with, like, focusing on too many things, like, hoping something's gonna stick, like, oh, if there are enough balls up in the air, something's gonna land right. So I think that's brilliant. So I have a lot of questions around that, though. Like, so when you go focusing deep and it's growing fast and it's working, how did you deal with competition? Because that's inevitable. When competition started popping up, at first, yes, it's like, I own this. But then there's, like, legit, great fitness photographers and sports photographers popping up. How did you stay the course without letting that affect you? How did you handle that? Were you ever thinking, they're copying me? Like, how did you handle that conversation? Because how we handle that, I believe, dictates how we grow and thrive.

Oh, absolutely. So I. Fortunately for me, when it came to competition, I was able to ignore what didn't matter and focus on what did matter. So when I sought out competition, it would be people I would want to compete against, and I would get involved in organizations where I could befriend the people that I would be competing against.

On jobs to team with them instead of against.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I find that some of my best competitors could be some of my closest friends.

That's amazing.

There's one in particular where I had. After I had started as a photographer, I took a step back, and I was still in college at the time. I took a step back, and I decided to intern for another photographer. I'm like, well, maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. Maybe let me intern for this other photographer and learn. And I interned for him for years while still growing my business. So today, now we compete against each other on a lot of clients, but yet we're still the closest of friends. He was at my wedding, and we get together for lunch all the time. And there are times he beats me, and there are times I beat him. But I don't know if there's literally ever, ever been one ounce of ill will towards each other. Like, we're excited when one of us wins because guess what? One of us won. And that's good for us because we're working hard now on that same vein. So getting involved in organizations. I'm a young photographer at the time and I get involved in an organization called the American Society of Media Photographers. And this to me was a big deal at the time because you had to go through this basically gauntlet of challenges. Not really challenges, but like you really had to go through this kind of overdrawn, ego driven application process. Like we are allowing you to be in our presence by getting into this organization. So I finally get into the organization and I'm just brimming with pride and I decided, well, I'm going to join the board of this organization. So I joined the local board and I'm sitting in these meetings and all these photographers are sitting around just bitching and complaining about how terrible the industry is. Oh, clients aren't paying what they used to and rates are disappearing and all these new photographers who are just, they're charging too little and they're ruining the industry. And I'm sitting there thinking, I know you're talking to me, but it really feels like you're talking at me. I really feel like you're talking about me.

Okay.

Because I'm a new photographer, I'm in the city, I'm scooping up all this work and, and I was doing really well. Like at this point I am like thriving in my freelance business where I'm at my full time job. I'm using, literally, if I get eight hours of vacation time or eight hours of sick time, I'm taking a day off and I'm funny.

That's how you know you're in your right thing.

Yeah. And I'm feeling weird and out of place in these meetings with these photographers who have been in the industry for decades before me. And where I live, it's kind of an old brother town. And they're just complaining so much. I'm like, wait, stop. You guys chose to be in this industry. You guys chose to be a part of this. Why are you so freaking cranky about it? And here's my hypothesis on the industry always is changing, ever changing. Any industry always in flux, always in shift. It's when you choose to stop changing with it, that's when you notice it passes you by. That's when you're sitting There just bitching and moaning about how things have gone past you. That's. And I never wanted to be in that role. So I'm always trying to figure out, how do I constantly develop myself as a storyteller, as an artist, as a business owner, how do I learn, how do I grow, how do I expand my skill sets, what I do so that I am not that person who's sitting in the room just complaining about how young people are taking all this business and ruining the industry. I'm like, no, because at one point, you were the young person, and I'm sure people said that about you. And what a terrible mindset to have. Like, we get to make pictures for a living. This is the coolest freaking job in the world. Why are we complaining about it?

Wow. So powerful.

I love that.

I love that. I also want to share, just from a different perspective, one of the things that I think made you so great as a photographer especially, I want everyone to hear, too, you built this in a recession. You built this during a recession, so people did not have money to spend. That's why you had lost things. But what's interesting is where the niche I see, aside from you loving the fitness and sports and being attracted to that, is you were really good at capturing people at their best. And if people are in a recession, feeling depressed, they're now seeing themselves at their best. You're providing an experience for them that's almost like a separation from reality. So I think that's a key thing that helped you grow. Like, instead of people like, hide from a recession or hide from a downtime, you leaned into it.

I love that you brought up the word experience. Something that occurred to me just this week. I was asked to give a presentation to a group of high school students from, we'll just say, not the best high schools from our surrounding area, but there's this grant that brings them all together to be at the university here to learn the essence of storytelling for a week. So they put them up in the dorms, and over an entire week, they have all these instructors teaching them how to interview, how to write stories, how to take photos, how to, you know, whatever, like, podcasts, how to post a website, how to put together a newspaper. And they asked me to come out, and I'm thinking, oh, they're going to have me present on photography, sure. And they said, no, can you present on how to interview people? I was like, oh, okay. I mean, the short answer is yes, but I don't know how to because I've never Deconstructed that. And so I sat down, I thought of. I said, wait, I've been interviewing people since I was 16 years old. Like, that was my first time I had a published article in a newspaper. And that was what I did as a beat reporter, was I interviewed people. And then all I did as a podcast was I interview people. And I thought, well, how does that translate to photography? And I realized, oh, my God, all I do as a photographer is interview people. It's the same thing.

Wow.

That is what I realized. One of, like, something that I've had as a skill set of mine, which, by the way, is. Is when I say skill set, it is a learned skill set. This was not a gift. This was not something I was born with. This is not something that was just bestowed upon. It was something I earned by developing it, which was, I can interview people and get them to feel comfortable on set. Which that, to me, is what separates a photographer who takes pictures versus a photographer who makes images. And I always want to be the latter. I want to make images. And making images, to me, means it's images that work. So an example would be, I work with a lot of professional athletes. They're professional athletes. They are not professional models. Their job is not to be on camera. Their job is to play whatever sport it is. But I have to make it look like they're a professional on camera. This would be the best thing they've ever done. And this is compounded with stress when you have a publicist breathing down your neck saying, you have 15 minutes. 15 minutes, and I'm pulling this athlete, so good luck.

That's funny.

So If I have 15 minutes with an athlete, and this is a real story, the athlete walks on set, and they are nervous. They are terrified nervous, because just the week before, they were blasted online for having one of the worst media photos ever taken. And so this athlete, insanely nervous, and he walks on set, and I have 15 minutes that I have to shoot a cover and an interior spread, which is something I would normally want 90 minutes for. I have 15. Well, guess what I did. I spent the first over five to seven minutes just talking to him and just getting him to feel comfortable. I didn't even have the camera in my hands. I literally was just standing and talking. The art director is getting really nervous. Like, you know, james, time's half up now. I'm like, I got this. You know? And you just make him feel like. Like, you are the most important person right now. You deserve to be here. You get them to Buy into this concept. You get them to believe in what we're creating. And I would rather make five minutes of the best photos ever than make 15 minutes of mediocre photos. But that comes with being able to communicate with the subject. And when I see young photographers trying to grow a portfolio, and I watch when they're working with a subject, it's like one statue photographing another statue. Nothing is said, nothing's communicated. We use the example of when you were on set with me, Natalie, and I'm taking your photo, and I take your photo, and then I don't say anything, but I just quietly look at the back of my camera. And you see the gears turning in my head. What I'm thinking about is lighting composition. I'm thinking about my shutter speed. I'm thinking about my aperture. I'm thinking about my ISO. I'm thinking about my light ratios. But you don't know that. You think, oh, my God, he doesn't think I look good on camera. Maybe I'm wearing the wrong outfits. Maybe there's something's wrong with my hair and makeup. Maybe. Maybe he's judging me. Because guess what? That's what every person thinks when they're gonna step in front of a camera.

That's funny.

That's true. I can't let them think that because I'm not. Because they don't. Like, they look amazing. Like, I have the best people in the world stepping in front of my camera. They look amazing, and I need to communicate with them to get them to buy into the process.

That's funny. Yeah. And you're great at that. You're great at that. So, okay, so. So this is. Obviously, you realize this is, like, somewhat of a gift and a calling to you, and you're growing this, and it's doing well. Why expand from that? Why not stay laser focused on that? And did you have setbacks that made you want to expand? Like, talk to me more about that.

That's such an interesting question. You know setbacks, yes, but everything is subjective because there was a year. And this blows my mind when I say it. I don't believe it, but it is there. I have it in my books. I had a year where I had 500 separate photo projects in one year. That's just under two projects a day. And I don't know how that was possible. I truly do not know how I got through that year. But I remember that year, and I remember the end of the year being sick. I was always getting sick. I'm going to the Doctor and the doctors tell me how fatigued I am and I'm very unhealthy at this point. I've ballooned up to £230. I don't feel.

While you're shooting fitness people.

Exactly. Yeah. I'm just not happy. I'm not like my business is thriving. I'm like, okay, I should feel fortunate because I'm doing what so many people have not figured out. Like I'm running a multiple six figure photography business and I talk to other and I don't know how to even spend my money. I don't even have time to spend my money because I'm just working. Yeah. I don't have many friends. I don't have any relationships. And the friends I do have have stopped inviting me to do things. Because you're always busy.

Photography. Yeah.

I say no. So this is not something I want for myself. So I decided to make a pivot there specifically in my photography business, which is let's not chase more work, let's chase better work. That was a huge push for me. Stop chasing low hanging fruit. Chase better work. And I'd rather spend 80% of my time chasing the best work and then fill the other 20% of my time with lower tier work. Now when I started to do this, my work went down. Like my overall bookings went down. My time opened up a lot, but my work went down. There was a low because I stopped taking low projects. I raised my rates, which was one thing. But after about half a year, all of a sudden it started to swing back up where I'm not working as much in regards to the number of projects I'm shooting. But I'm making more money because I've chased bigger work and I've put the time in to chase big work. And if you never put the time in, you're not going to get it. That dip is scary as hell. It's scary to see your billings go down. It's scary to realize I'm not making as much this month as I made this month last year.

Okay. So right there, this is a really key because I know people listening can relate to this. They're maybe stuck in that right now. Like they know they need to. They get that by the way you described it, but they're still stuck in it. How did you convince yourself to stay that course? Like how did you not go backwards? Because that would be very easy. Like you see your bank account dipping, that gets stressful. You start losing some clients. Maybe the lower hanging fruit. Like how do you Stay that course when, like, it's very real that you have to make income.

I'm gonna be honest with you. I slipped all the time.

Okay.

All the time. Out of fear. I would take jobs out of fear 100%.

And, like, so someone would come along, but, like, somebody said no to a bigger job. So you just did it anyway.

Yep.

And was it, like, something you started catching yourself with and then you were like, okay, yes.

Oh, yes. And. And I. It was. You know, what was the biggest thing for me? It was. I feel people make movements when they get uncomfortable enough. Because if you're not uncomfortable, why are you going to change anything? You just. You're comfortable.

So what got you uncomfortable enough to make the change?

Bad projects. Bad projects with bad clients. And there was one in particular that was one of the biggest turning points for me. One of the things I've always disliked photographing is events I do not like. Going to events I don't like because I'm the one having to walk around the camera. Everyone else is drinking, having a time. Everyone is wildly inebriated and making jokes at me. And then I have to try to capture them, and I have to try. Try to joke back, and it bothers me so much.

And they're handing you their cell phone right after. Can you take one? On my cell phone?

Yes. So I get hired to photograph this corporate event. They rented out the entire Ritz Carlton here in Arizona. And I don't want to do it, but the money is so good. So I'm like, well, I'm just going to do it. I'm getting paid a ridiculous amount of money. So I hired my best friend who's also a photographer, and I said, can you do this with me? Because at least I can be miserable with a friend there. Because it's two and a half days of just me being miserable, walking around taking boring photos of a boring event. And so he agrees to do it. I split the money with him, and I'm still ecstatic. Like, the money was that good. And we go through the first day, and it is miserably boring. But I'm thinking, well, at least I'm getting paid. That's fine. This is my mortgage for the next three months, so just do it. So at the end of the day, we have to turn in our memory cards to our contact with the company. He downloads all the photos, and the next morning, we pick up our memory cards again. So for another full day of shooting. But that next morning, he pulled me and my friend into an office and said, we need to talk about the photos. And I'm like, oh, and to be clear, this was not the person who hired me, so it was just the person that I was tasked with working with on site. And he says, you know, we have a problem with some of these photos, and I'm going to show you what I mean. So he says, here. Here's an example. And he brings up a photo, and of course, it's one of my photos. And it's this photo of this. This wine glass in the foreground. There's a fire pit behind the wine glass. There's two people talking behind the fire pit and the sunsets behind them. It's this very artistic shot of, you know, this gorgeous wine glass at sunset and these people networking. Okay, okay. And I looked at him like, oh, this is a really great shot. Maybe this is going to be a compliment. And he says, do you see this photo with the wine glass? And I'm like, yeah, yeah. He says, I can't use this. I'm like, oh, okay. And then there's this other photo where I had these two people talking, and I framed them under this tree, and we have this great twilight of these lights in the tree, and it's this beautiful, beautiful shot, like, capturing the essence of this event. Says, do you see this? I'm like, yes, I can't use this. And he brings up another photo, and photo after photo after photo. All mine, by the way. Not my friends, all my photos. He's just telling me why he can't use them. Because they're too unique or they're too artistic or they're too, you know. Oh, you put a Dutch angle on this one. I can't use that, you know? Or all he wanted was people standing side by side, no drinks in hand, just standing side by side, smiling at the camera. That's all he wanted for 10 hours a day. And I'm just like, why was I hired to do this? And I was. That there crushed me. In the entire rest of the weekend, every time I went to put the camera to my eye to take a photo, I just heard his voice in the back of my head, this I cannot use. Because he kept saying that, This I cannot use. This I cannot use. And I heard that voice in the back of my head, and I ended up taking next to no photos the rest of the weekend because I'm just like, every photo I want to take, he's just gonna say, this I cannot use. And it was such a creatively crushing experience. Like, all right. And that was Literally the last time I ever photographed an event.

I love that. So I love that story. I love that that happened to you because it happened for you, actually. And it really, it just like if that. Nobody should spend time in a place that takes them out of their creative zone. Nobody should spend time in a place where they're not appreciated. So I love that you realized that you had taken this because of a scarcity mindset. Like, you need the money, which I get, people do, but at the cost of what? Because now you not only have two days of hating what you're doing, but you have days that follow of you questioning what you're doing.

Yep, exactly. And what also helped to contrast that was when the work did benefit in the sense of when I put in the work and I got the big client, when I got that big magazine project or when I remember when I landed my first, this was a five figure photo job. And to me that was like, I can't believe I just booked a five figure photo job. Like, this is insane. Yeah, like, that was like. And it took, by the way, that five figure photo job took eight months to get eight months of campaigning. And I was proud of those eight months because once we did that campaign, I remember like, and I had a full team there and we had, I mean, our expense list on that was, it was also five figures. And I was just like, I was so proud of everything and the creative. And it was just like the client was so ecstatic. And I remember just like, this is it, this is what, this is like, let's keep replicating this. Let's chase the next.

Now, James, if that had gone a different way, if you had spent those months focusing on this to get that bid and you had lost it, would you have kept going? What would have, what would you have made up? Because I want people to hear that too, because I think sometimes people, they focus on that long stretch or whatever and then it doesn't work. And they take it as a failure. And they take it as their failure.

So let's talk about failure. In a given year, I'll do. On a slow year, I'll do about 40 to 50 bids. And on a good year, I'll do about 100 to 120 bids. Bids to understand the scope of the photography industry. There's individual projects, which is you, Natalie, need to hire me. So you hire me. That's an project, an editorial project. A magazine wants to hire me, they'll tell me what they're going to pay. That's just what it is. Here's our rate. And then I say yes or no. A commercial project shooting for advertisements, I have to bid on it. So they go out. Usually it's a three photographer bid, sometimes it's through an ad agency or sometimes it's directly to the client. And they'll say, here's the project, here's the details, here's the scope. Turn in a bid and you have.

No idea what the others are bidding or what they're looking for.

No clue. You might not even know who the other photographers are.

And you don't even have a chance to understand what they're looking for because they're just telling you what, like, it's not like you can get in their brain, I would imagine.

Like, yeah, I mean sometimes they'll allow you to do an interview like where you can ask questions and I've had it where I'll even do like, you know, if it requires us to be on site, where I'll do a site visit with a client to walk through a site. So. But they might not tell you who the other photographers are. And I can ask, but they might not tell me what their, their budget in mind is. But I, I will ask. So, Anna, let's just say I have a year, it's a busy year and I do a hundred bids, I'm going to lose 90 of them.

Wow, that's important to know. So how did you first navigate that? Because did you take it as rejection at first?

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Because I'm like, when you get rejected, you think they don't. I cannot do this as a photographer. This is not going to work. I was rejected. No one wants me. Not just they don't want me, no one wants me. And what I. Fortunately, I have some things in hindsight that I can pull into this for perspective, which, you know, one example is when I worked my marketing job. All I did in my marketing job was this was corporate bids. And in a year I could do hundreds of bids and we'd lose at that job, we'd lose about 80%. And that was average 80%. And what I learned through there is relationships trump everything else. Everything else. Relationships are the pinnacle. So if, and I can take that in my photo business, I look at, well, I lost this bid. Why? Probably because the person who won had a better relationship.

I love that perspective shift because that's something and I want people to hear that too. Like we have the ability at any time to shift our perspective and the story we make up about something. So like we can say it's rejection because it's me. Or it's rejection because they probably know somebody that they had a relationship with or they got a better whatever it is and it's not meant to be. So I love that you were able to recognize that and shift that. That's incredible.

Yeah. Or someone had a better price and that it was just price. Like, maybe had nothing to do with anything but price and I was just too expensive. I've had that, too. And here's another story of.

And James, real quick, before I want to hear your other story, but on that expensive thing, who defines expensive? And how did you not go to, like, quickly giving them a lower price? How did you make yourself stick to that?

The photographer I interned with had this beautiful saying. He said, beauty is in the eye of the checkbook holder.

I love it. That's great.

And it always has stuck with me, which is okay. The person with the checkbook is going to decide what they want. Like, I'll see. Even in the fitness industry, I'll see, you know, some of the creatives who get hired, and it will cause me to scratch my head. Oh, yeah, that's an interesting choice. That's maybe not the choice I would have made, but hey, I'm not the one writing the check. When I'm the one writing the check, I'll make a different decision.

Yeah.

And that's just. That's just what it is. And listen, there are times where there are clients who refuse to hire anyone else than me. Like, that's just what it is.

Yeah.

Because. Because of my look, my style, my. Our relationship. Like, I've had editors tell me, I cannot imagine working with anyone but you, period. And then I've had. I have this one art director who told me, you know, I've never worked with a photographer as long as I've worked with you. Yeah, that was a compliment, but also a threat.

And it's also a lesson in what, how people make decisions. And shoes. And I'll think, like, just on my end, I've shifted from doing, like, fitness modeling for people to, like, using photographers or hiring photographers for what I want for my brand. And it's like, I would say the same thing. Like, it. I don't know who could come into my life that would make me shift who I work with right now. Like, I have a relationship with the people that I work with, and it has nothing to do with rate or somebody new is starting, whatever. Like, there'd be. It have to take them having a relationship with me and having their being like A really compelling reason, you know, so it really doesn't have to do with price or it has to do with the relationship. And like what you just said, beauty's in the eye of the checkbook holder. That's really good.

My goal is to earn relationships, like, across the board. That's what I do. And if it's not right now, guess what? If I'm chasing a client, my goal is to be on deck. My goal is to be the next person in line. Like, you got your three photographers right now. Absolutely. I respect that. Let me know when they're not available, because I'm going to be ready. And.

And there always is a time you're right and then you're going to go to the relationship person. Yep, you're right.

It takes time. And you have to have the foresight to know that's going to take time. And what I was going to tell you earlier is I was chasing this one magazine client and what I decided to do was to send them to do trickle marketing, where every month I'd send them a new piece of content and collateral.

Okay.

They were these physical postcards that I created. I was so proud of them. And I'm just. I have these, like, imaginations of, you know, like, people get my postcard and they just. Tears well up in their eyes. You know, maybe they fall to their knees and they start praying for the opportunity to work with me. Obviously, it didn't work that way. So I'm pursuing this one client. So every month they get a new postcard from me. Now, nine months in, I've heard nothing, okay? Nothing. And I'm like, and. And I'm mortified. I'm like, soul crushing mortified. I'm like, I. Apparently. Because by the way, they're in my genre. Like, this is what I do. They're the perfect client. And I'm their perfect. I'm the perfect person for this client. Like, no one could be better. And I'm just thinking, okay, well, maybe I suck as a photographer. Maybe I need to quit. Maybe I need to do anything else but this. Because obviously the client that I need to be getting, I'm not getting right now. And I was looking at the photo editor of the magazine. I was looking at their Instagram one day and there was a photo of them working at their desk late one night. And something about this photo of them working at their desk was catching me. And it took me a second to actually realize what it was. On the wall behind them, there was this big open wall and there was Only one thing on the wall tacked to the wall. And that one thing was one of my postcards. It was the only thing on this wall. In fact, it was the very first postcard I sent them, because I went back and checked. It was the very first postcard I sent them back in January. It's now September. So they've had this on their wall, theoretically, for up to nine months. Nine months. This could have been on their wall, looking at it every single day. But I've heard nothing from that. And that was that big light bulb moment of, oh, they just don't need me right now.

Yeah, yeah.

That's really pushing. And eventually I did. I did secure them as a client.

That's awesome. Okay, so you mentioned to me before we started interviewing that you had a big shift from realizing I'm a freelancer to I'm a business owner and I'm an entrepreneur. Tell me about that and what that meant to you and how you shifted that.

That it's interesting because when I left my marketing job to just do photography full time, it was still in the bottom of the recession. But I'm doing so well, that business is going tremendously well. But working as a freelancer, and when you're a photographer, you're a freelancer, you're not an entrepreneur in the sense of, the only way I get paid is if I'm on set taking photos. That's it. And that can be very addicting, which is how I got to that point of booking 500 jobs in a year. So maybe not the best path. But I'm not an entrepreneur. Like, I'm limited to what time I have, and if I get sick, there's no business. If I want a vacation, which I never took one, there's no business. That's it. I am a freelancer. And at that same time, there was something kind of bubbling beneath the surface for me, which is a desire to do than just create imagery. Because my imagery, when I create it for a client, it helps that client, and I know it helps that client. If I'm shooting for a magazine, my goal is to make that the best selling issue they've had. That's what I want to do. And I've had that a few times where a magazine will come back and say, we just broke a record. This was our best selling issue. That to me, means that I didn't take a photo. I made an image that works. When I see my image on a billboard, I'm like, that image is working right now. When I see my Image in a magazine ad, that image is working right now. When an individual hires me and they end up on a cover, that image worked. So the idea of creating stuff that helps people was tying to kind of a bigger need that I had. And I didn't really understand why I was having this desire until years later in life. But when I pulled the camera back in the sense of the scope, and I looked at the timeline of my personal trajectory, I realized that there was a very pivotal turning point within my own life in college, where I had spent a lot of time doing the absolute wrong thing, doing what I thought I needed to do to be successful as a young aspiring artist, entrepreneur, slash photographer, whatever title I was giving myself at the time, which meant that maybe I was too braggadocious. Maybe that meant I didn't treat people so well. Maybe that meant that I took advantage of situations because I did all the above. And what it ended up for me, what the sum of this, this kind of spiral was, I had nothing. I had no business to show for it. I had no friends. Like, my family was upset. I was just, I was by myself. And that to me was a. Was a pretty dark rock bottom.

Yeah.

Which, and I understand, like, it's college, a lot of people go through a transformational period in college. So I'm not trying to say that, that my story was more impactful or powerful than others, but it was important to me because at some point I realized this isn't me and this is not the value set I was raised with. This is not who I want to be known for. Like, I don't want to be known as the person who you can't trust. I don't want to be known as the person who is not going to do good work, who's not reliable. And so I said, I need to humble myself here. I need to bunker down a little bit. And what I ended up doing was I just reinvested myself back into school because at the time I was, I had dropped out of university, I was back at community college. And I was just floundering. I had no direction. And I said, you know what? I need to go back to university. I need to get focused. I need to get my degree, I need to get a job. I just need to get focused. And I ended up meeting this professor, and I'm so glad I met him at this time when I transferred back to university. And he was this very wily professor who, he was a big guy and he kind of, he didn't, he didn't walk so well, so he kind of lumbered around the department, and he only had one good eye, which most of the girls thought he was kind of just glaring at him, which he probably was. But most people would ignore this professor as just this weird professor. And there was something about him that when he talked, these stories would just get interwoven in his lectures. And his lectures weren't really lectures. They were just more of a stream of conscious spewing of memories. And all of a sudden, I realized this guy's had kind of an amazing life. Like, he was a photographer his entire career, and now he's this educator, and he's insanely well connected. Like, he would never brag about it, but he's insanely well connected. And for some reason, he saw something in me. And I don't know what that was, but he was the one who. He managed a newspaper. And I started at his newspaper, and I started as a staff reporter. And he said, no, you're going to be a staff photographer. I'm going to shift you over. And so a couple issues in, I became a staff photographer. And then it was a couple issues after that. He said, okay, there's an opening as the photo editor. You're now the photo editor. I've never done this before. He says, well, you're now the photo editor. And I remember the first, you know, to go back a little bit, I remember the first assignment I got sent out on as a staff photographer. I took it very seriously. I went out and I made this portrait of the new marshal that was just hired in the town that the newspaper was based in. I was very proud of it. And I remember the postmortem, which is just a debrief you do after every issue. He held up the front page of the paper. And I remember specifically what he said. He says, front page photo, James Patrick. Excellent photo, James. Excellent. It was the first time I'd ever really gotten genuine praise. And this is. After all this crap that I'd gone through. I'm like, oh, my God, I earned that. Like, I just earned that. Like. And he's compliment like, okay, this is it. Hard work, being, like, doing the right thing. Like, you know, dedicating myself, devoting myself. This. This is it. This is what it feels. And it felt amazing. The very next issue, I got sent out to do this project, and I mailed it in. I totally mailed it. And I was. I was lazy with it. And postmortem comes around. He holds up the paper, and it was a page six photo. It definitely was it was buried too. It's like, page. He said, page six photo, James Patrick. It was the first thing he said. Page six photo, James Patrick. I'm like, oh, maybe you liked it. Terrible photo, James. Terrible. And that was it. It was like, oh, I earn it, but I can also lose it.

Wow.

And so I became very close with this professor to the extent that I became one of his TAs, and I'm helping him teach his class and like, I'll give an example. Like, I'm helping him grade assignments. It was photo assignments. And I show him. I show him a photo that student turned in and he says, oh, this is good. Let's. Let's give it a. Let's give it an A minus. And before I write down A minus, wait, wait, who shot it? And I flip it over and say the name, he says, c. Oh. And what that was was it was not an attack on that student. What it was is this student has more to give us. We need to challenge them. He didn't look at, at anyone's life or their body of work as a single piece. He looked at it as this timeline. And his job, his mission was to help people over the course of their entire timeline that they were connected with them. And he'd be the person who a student would be coming up on graduation and he would just randomly, in conversation, be like, well, where do you want to go after this? And I remember one student says, thinking about moving to la. Maybe I can work for the LA Times. Well, guess what? The professor knows the photo at the LA Times. So without the student ever knowing, he goes and calls a photo at the LA Times and says, I'm going to give you the name, the email address and the phone number of this student, and I want you to give him a call. That student's hired how I got my marketing job. He came up to me one day and he said, I need your resume. I said, what do you need my resume for? He says, don't ask, I just need your resume. And I get a call from a company that has been basically hardwired this job for me that I worked for seven years. And he would just do this again and again and again. And what it was was he helped me at a time when I needed that help, when I didn't know what to do. He was a person that was like, I'm going to push you.

That's amazing. And it sounds like he's a true coach too. Like how you said he would look at their potential. I think amazing leaders and coaches they see people in their potential, and they hold them high there versus, like, just stroking their ego right now.

Yes. Yes. Because it went both ways. So that's it for me when I. It wasn't until, like, the last year or so that I realized, oh, this is why I want to help people. This was it. Because someone helped me. And, like, I knew I wanted to help people. Like, I knew that was part of it, but I didn't. I didn't fully understand the scope. And so I was doing the work without understanding the why of the work. And then when I understood the why of the work, that was. That changed everything. And that's what allowed this expansion from being a freelancer into being an entrepreneur.

I love your whole journey, and I love the different lessons within. Tell me about how you got the idea to do this. Fit Posium. Where did that come from? And then now even leveling up and helping other photographers.

Fitposium was born out of a natural evolution, which is we were helping so many people. When I say we, I mean my team and I were helping so many people create imagery that would grow their career or help them grow their career, help them get in front of the right clients or into magazines. But what I was seeing was they weren't knowing what to do with it. And we had. We have clients who would get on these amazing magazine covers. I had this one client. We got her on three magazine covers in a single year. Wow. I mean, just think, like, most people can go their career without one. She got three in a year, but had no idea what to do with it and was out of business within a year. And I was, oh, my God, how are you not capitalizing? And the reality is, I've been fortunate in my. In my journey to be a journalist, to be a storyteller, to work in marketing, to work in business development, because I've been able to entrench that into my personal business. But not everyone looks at it that way. So let's start having these conversations. Let's start helping people understand what are the next steps or what are the steps you can't take, or people who have insane amounts of potential, but no one has ever said to them, them, yeah, here's your permission slip. Go do this. Not that they need it, but they think they do. So here it is. Go do something. So we created, and it honestly started with. I was blogging for 10 years, and then that turned into podcasting. But what was missing was a community, because as when you. When you kind of chart off on doing Something you might feel like you're in it alone, and you might feel isolated, and you might feel like no one understands because maybe your friends don't understand, or maybe you're. Maybe your family doesn't support this because they don't get it, or they're afraid for you. Okay. Like that fear might have the best intentions, but you feel alone. Well, we need a community, then we need a tribe. We need people who are willing to band together, support one another, and say, listen, we're all in this together. Let's take this step now. And we're going to learn from each other's experiences, mistakes, and best practices. That's how the conference was created. We created it back in 2015, and it was really just predicated on three things. How do you build a brand? How do you market that brand, and then how do you profit from that brand in connected to the health and fitness space? And it doesn't matter what you do. I don't care if you're a personal trainer, you're a coach, you're a nutritionist, you're a blogger. It does not matter.

And you've had some great speakers at this. I know. So it's incredible. It's an incredible opportunity for people.

I've been so lucky with the speakers we've had because it's. We just. This is our mission. We're not this big corporate event.

Yeah, no, it's great.

You know, we talked to some speakers and like, well, I spoke at, at and T, and I got paid $50,000. I'm like, okay, well, we're not that. But what we are is we're a tribe of people who are willing to take risks. We're a tribe of people willing to do things together. And we've been blessed by the speakers who. That resonated with them, and they're like, yeah, I want to be on that stage.

That's so good. So good. Talk to me a little bit about. And I mean, I know we're going to share how people can learn more about the. I did not forget that. I'm going to come back to that in one second. I'm just curious about your wanting to help other photographers now, what that is.

That's right. So the funny thing is, I've worked in the health and fitness industry for the better part, actually, more than a decade now. 12 years. 12 years I've been working specifically within health and wellness, but I'm not a health and wellness professional. I can come to it from the angle of I'm a photographer. In this industry, I can come to it from the angle of I have marketing experience, I have sales experience, I have business development experience, I have storytelling experiences. So I can hit upon all these things. But at the, at the core, I'm a creative, I'm a photographer, I'm a writer, I'm, I'm a producer, I'm a creative director. And I see so many creatives struggling to get the first steps going in their career. Doing all the same mistakes I did. Yeah, like, like chasing the low hanging fruit. Like trying to be the jack of all trades. Like, I remember early in my career I went to interview at a photo agency. Much like a model can have an agency, photographers can also. The difference being is that there's far less of them and their rosters are far smaller. Like a photo agency might have a roster of under 10 photographers. That's it. And you might have only half a dozen good agencies in a country so very finite. And I remember I was interviewing at this big one and I thought it was going to be a one on one interview. It was not a one on one interview because there's 25 people interviewing. The person interviewing decided to put all of our websites and up on a presentation slide and interview us in front of the rest of the photographers. It was, I mean, just sweat inducing. And I remember he pulled up my website and he put it up on the board and he said, all right, well what do you shoot? I said, well, I shoot sports and fitness portraiture. I said, okay, why is there architecture on your website? I was like, I sometimes get hired for architecture. Okay, why are there events on your website? Do you like shooting events? And I'm like, oh God, no, no, no, I don't. He says, all right, I want you to go delete half your website and then come back to me.

Oh my gosh.

And I did, and I did, and I did. And it was. And it actually helped my career. But it required someone just throwing that really hard truth at me for me to actually see. And so what I decided to do is, all right, well, let's, let's start helping some creative, creative entrepreneurs, some creative freelancers. Let's help them scale their business and their career. So I started, well with a podcast, it's called the beyond the Image podcast, where I can interview photo editors from magazines, I can interview creative directors, I can interview photo agents, and I can interview artists about their journey, their trajectory, the lessons they've learned. So to help offer insights to people trying to grow their creative career. And then we started doing Some live events. We did a live event for lighting, like how you light portraiture. And we just did a marketing and sales event for photographers where we talked about the essence of how you build a brand, how you market that brand, and how you increase your profits as.

A creative so good and being the background that you have and what you've learned, I think, why wouldn't they want to learn this from you? Save themselves a lot of trouble. Go to the source.

You know, it's interesting because it's been selling like, you know, we've released some online courses they've been selling, but it wasn't selling to the level that I thought it would. And, and I was thinking about that and I'm kind of looking at, I'm like, okay, so we do. We have fitposium. We have the fitposium podcast, we have my book and our digital downloads, everything through fitposium and that it's just like, it just keeps churning. It's doing so well. Everything's growing. But then I have this other thing and I'm just like, I'm really kind of having to push this along. What's going on here? And then I realized, oh, my God, that's it. I've been in the fitness industry for 12 years. That's my audience. It is the audience I've had for 12 years. So that is a very mature audience. I'm trying to foster this entirely new vertical, build this entirely new audience that might not know me yet, they might not trust me yet, they might not be warm enough to me for them to actually do purchases. So that's why we decided, you know what, let's double down on the podcast. Let's just give value. Give great value. Because if we give great value before we start asking for things in return, people are going to feel like they're a part of it. People are going to feel like they're invested in it.

Yes, I believe in that. Great shares, James. Okay, I have one more question for you that I ask everybody. Then I'm going to jump into, like, where people can find out more. I know people want to probably figure out how they can work with you on a photography level, but also how to attend Fit Posium, all of that. So before I go to that there real quick, this is a question I ask every guest. If somebody's listening right now and they're in their own personal rock bottom, whatever that means to them, them, maybe it's their. The turn down on the bids, or maybe they're financially like, you dealt with in the recession, whatever it is to them that they're dealing with, which is their own personal rock bottom. If you were to give them free pieces of advice on how they can start shifting their mindset and leveling up and creating everything from nothing, what would you tell them?

Okay, so there's actually a couple. Because this is something that I've been so obsessed with over the last year, which is creating change within our lives. Because anything in our lives, life, anything can be changed. We are built to change. We are built to adapt. Like when I told you earlier that when I got really unhealthy and I ballooned up to £230, I can change that. I can change that. I could change my health, I can change my wellness, my mindset, I can change. Okay. I think so much of it. It starts with the habits we keep. A lot of us, especially entrepreneurs, are guilty of thinking, I'm going to work on my business. And once I get my business to a certain level, like maybe, let's just say you're a new entrepreneur, that level for you is six figures. Once I get to six figures, everything else will be figured out. Then I'll have time for my body, Then I'll have time for relationships, Then I'll have time to take care of my mind. Nope. Because guess what? When you hit six figures, you're going to do exactly what I did, which is you're going to push the finish line to multiple six figures. Then when you hit that, you're going to push the finish line again. You'll never let yourself cross the finish line. So true. You'll always put yourself last. So the advice is, if you're in a place and you feel stuck and you're not liking where you're at, the good news is you can change it. And for me, it starts with habits. Because when you entrench a habit, the habit itself is not what changes you. It's the act of doing the habit over time which will change you. So, like we'll say meditation. Meditation, I don't believe is going to change your life, but if you're the person who devotes time to meditation, you will change.

You're right.

I think that's what it is. So for me, it starts with your body honoring yourself, honoring your physical well being. Every day I sweat every single day. Even if it's, I'm just going to take the dog for a walk, okay? So I'm in movement every single day. The second thing I do every day is I fuel myself properly. Because what you put in is what you get out. Okay? Now don't get me wrong. There are days I'll go and crush a pizza and some beers, and I love it. But if on that day, maybe I drink a green juice, I do something to take care of the nutrients I'm putting in my body. Okay. So that's a habit I can do for my mind. I meditate every single day, and I didn't used to. And it's interesting because meditation, it's a slippery thing where you. It's so easy to skip. And when you skip it, the results of skipping it throw you off. Yes, totally.

Same with my. I feel that way about gratitude journals, too.

Yes, that's the next thing. I journal. So meditate. Journal. So so far we have. I move, I fuel, I meditate, I journal. So we're up to four things. I can do all these within an hour before I even start my day. I can do all this within a half hour. Like, this is so easy. Like, my meditation does not need to be a long hour long meditation. I can meditate in five minutes. I can journal in 10 minutes. Like, that's 15 minutes. Everyone has 15 minutes. And this whole thing of, oh, I don't have time. Guess what? The most successful people in the world have the exact same amount of time you do to the second.

You're right.

Right. It's what they choose to do at that time. So what you choose to do with your time is important. So then. So that's my body, that's my mind. Now let's talk about relationships, because relationships are important. I struggled when I was isolated. I struggled when I was on my own. So you mentioned gratitude. I give gratitude to people. So my wife gets a note. Maybe it's on her. Maybe it's on the whiteboard in her office. Maybe it's on a little sticky note that I put on her coffee. Maybe it's. I flip to an empty page in her journal and I write her a little secret note.

Note.

Like, she will get a note and then usually I'll give another note to someone on my team or one of my clients. Like, I will give notes every day to people expressing gratitude.

So good.

Then I can focus on my. And by the way, now I'm up to six things and I'm still under an hour of time.

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, that's simple.

Make it easy. Because if you make it too complicated, you're not going to do it.

Totally.

And then for myself as a business owner, I learn every day. Every day I Have to learn. Learning could be a conversation with someone, a podcast. I read voraciously. So however you want to take information. And then I share what I learned. And you can share what you learned in social media. You can share what you learn on a podcast, in an article, on a blog. You write, or you're just talking to someone, you share a piece of information that could change for them. So all of this, you honor your body, you honor your mind. This is really good relationships. And then you honor your business.

And I love that part you said about share what you learn, because that's a missing link with people. Like, if you learn something, you hear it. It's one level to hear it. It's another level to then journal about it. But then when you actually teach it or share it to someone else, it really sticks.

Well, think about all these tools. I mean, what are we doing right now? We are using these tools off the shelf tools to create content, to create value. Someone could listen to your podcast and this could be the thing that changes everything for them. And I guarantee you've had that because you've had some amazing guests on your show talking about their transformations. When you talk about your own transformation. When you came and I saw you present last October and you shared about your transformation over the last 10 years, I was freaking touched to my heart because I was like, oh, my God, this is so freaking vulnerable and real. And this is addressing everything that I'm thinking right now. But it's because you made the decision to share it.

Yeah.

That is so critically important. I had this boss when I worked at my marketing job, and he said, hey, you want to succeed at life? Do three things. Be seen, be heard, be read. You handle those three things, you're taken care of.

Being heard and read. I love it. Can people tell us more? Tell us about Fitposium. Where can they find it? You mentioned you had even like a coupon code for people that are interested.

Absolutely. So we are running into our fifth annual fitposium. It's going to be October 3 through 6. It's in Scottsdale, Arizona. And like I was saying earlier, it does not matter what you choose to do within health, fitness, wellness. This is about how you grow your brand, how you grow your business. So we, we even have photographers who attend this event. You want to be a photographer in the health and fitness space? Guess what? You're going to be surrounded by 400 of your clients.

That's amazing. Like, that's 400. Wow. That's amazing.

Oh, yeah, it's it's, we've grown it every year, We've sold it out every year. It's incredible. The conference is broken into three components. We have education and we have a mate like Chris Harder's on our stage this year. Danny, Jill Coleman. We booked some others we've been targeting for years, but I can't say who they are. Like, we'll be announcing them in the next few weeks and just like some of the biggest names we've ever had on our stage.

That's amazing.

Our all star year. And then information is one part of it. But I'm going to be honest, information at scale is free. You can go to YouTube and learn all of this if you want it. Like, like, let's just. That's any conference. You can get information for free. So the other two things are critically important. The second one is connection. It's that tribe set up. It's, it's that, it's that connecting with people who are going through the same crap you are at the same time, who can help you and you can help them. Why do it alone? We have people who, they sign up, they join our private Facebook group and I challenge them. I say go to the group, share who you are and share what you're doing and see what happens. And every single time other attendees jump up to say, I love what you're doing, I got your back. Here's some advice, here's some, here's ways that I can help. Can I share this with my audience? You instantly grow your tribe. It's like just add water. And the third thing which is so special to what we do at our event is opportunity. So what we do is we create opportunities for our attendees to share their brand story. And the way we do that is by partnering with the media. So just to give an example, at our last year's conference, our 2018 conference, Strong Fitness magazine was there, Oxygen Magazine magazine was there, Fitness Magazine was there, Golf magazine was there, scottsa Health magazine was there, Women's Health and Fitness Magazine Defined. Fitness magazine was involved, Max Force and Fitness Magazine was involved, Modern Fitness. And they were all there, taking one on one face to face meetings with attendees to hear their story, to hear their pitches. And we also had podcasters there too.

That's great.

And all of them booked people to appear in their magazines, on the COVID of their magazines, to book them for their podcast, to book them for TV features, to book them for radio sports. So like dozens of people are getting booked the day of the events.

That's incredible. Something I definitely Wish I had had when I was doing all of that years ago. Great. Fast forward.

It's what I wanted. Like, I'm thinking, if I'm someone who wants to grow their business, what do I want? I want opportunities.

Yeah.

Okay, let's do it. So I just started using all my connections to bring these editors out to be at the event in person. So you could be the person, let's say Strong Fitness magazine who's returning for the third year in a row. You could be the person who's trying to slide into their DMs or trying to send a thousand emails to get their 10 attention. Or you could be the person who sits across the table from them, shakes their hand and says, here's my story.

How do they find it?

The website is fitposium.com okay. As of when we're recording this, we're, I think, just shy of being 50% sold out. So we've been selling it faster this year than any year before. But for your listeners, what we're going to do is we're going to give them 25% off.

That's so nice. That's amazing.

So you could do a general pass. You could do a VIP pass. The 25% off the top comes off. Whatever pass you want.

Okay.

And it's just, it's, it's one word, Natalie. 25. So just easy.

So you like I'm 25 years old. I love it.

That's, that's why we did it. 25. So 25 off in honor of your 20s.

I'm definitely not 25 years old, but, but we'll pretend I am for a podcast. So I Love it. So fitposium.com 25 off. Love that idea. Like a chance to go to Phoenix to meet, meet James, to get to experience all these great things. Where can they find you online, too?

So my website is james patrick.com super easy. And then my Instagram is @jpatrickphoto.

I love it. Thank you so much today, Natalie.

Thank you so much. Not just, I mean, I am very appreciative and gracious to have this conversation with you, but honestly, for the fact that you've created this platform for individuals to share these stories of love, struggle, transformation, and overcoming obstacles. Because I, I know, and I know your listeners can attest to this is so important to have these conversations and it means a lot that you've created this.

I love doing it. Thank you. Thanks for leveling up with us today. Please share this episode if you found it helpful so others can join in. And don't forget to hit that subscribe so you don't miss out on future shows. And if you would leave me a five star review. I appreciate appreciate those so much. I read all of them and it's how I know that I'm giving you information that you find valuable. And come interact with me over on Instagram at Natalie Jill Fit. I read all the direct messages and comments over there. Make it a great day. Creating everything from nothing.