125: Creating Smart Passive Income with Pat Flynn

Hi, I'm Natalie. Jill, fat loss expert turned high performance coach. When odds are stacked against us, how do we shift and create everything from nothing? How do we level up when we aren't feeling it yet or we've had a big setback? On this podcast, I'll be talking to some of the most inspiring and courageous men and women on this planet who at their worst, learned how to achieve success greater than they ever dreamed possible. Leveling up and creating everything from nothing. Pat Flynn. He graduated school as an A student with an architecture degree, and then he had the job, the fiance, the career he had studied for. And then the recession hit, he was laid off and he fell into a deep depression. After watching Back to the future 60 times. Yep, 60 times. And feeling sorry for himself, he decided he had to get it together and figure things out. Well, he figured out a way to help people. It was a simple process and an even more specific niche. And an online business was born. Today, Pat Flynn helps anyone make more money, save more time, and help more people too. And he does this without the fluff, the facade, and as he says, without the Lamborghinis and giant mansions. He's a family man first and is here to help other people who are in it for more than just themselves. He's leveled up and has built several new passive income businesses and has been publicly sharing everything he has been learning along the way. Join in today and learn exactly how Pat Flynn leveled up and created everything from nothing. I'm so excited today on Leveling up because I've got the one and only Pat Flynn who I've known through mutual friends for years, but I've never really dug into his story and why he created Smart passive Income, which is a huge success and he's helped so many people create smart passive income. So, Pat, thanks for joining me today. I'm dying to dive in and talk with you.

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to chat with you and your audience today.

Yeah. So I know that you do so well now. You can you Google you and you come up everywhere with smart passive income as the expert. But I know that's not always who you were. So you were originally an architect. Can you take us back and let us know who you were before all of this?

Yeah. Gosh. So I went to school for architecture, graduated, got a really good job, probably my dream job right out of college helping build restaurants and hotels in Vegas and all these different places. It was really exciting and I was doing a lot to become a world famous architect. That's really what I wanted. And I passed a number of different exams, and I started to climb the corporate ladder quite quickly. Things were going so well that In March of 2008, I proposed to my girlfriend and we were getting ready to get married and start a family together. And then 2008, this is sort of foreshadowing the story here. Obviously, the recession hit and I was a statistic like many other people during that time, me included. So I got lit up.

Yeah.

And it was tough. And I honestly didn't know what to do because I had done everything the way I was supposed to. Right. I checked off all the tick marks from, you know, 4.0 grade point average and doing a lot more than I was asked of at my. At my job to have this, quote, secure position. And yet I still got let go. So I was quite sad and depressed for a little bit of time. And I discovered podcasts during this time because I had a lot of time to discover my new self potentially. And there was a particular podcast called Internet Business Mastery, which was just really popular at the time. And I heard an episode where they interviewed a guy who was helping people pass the project management exam or the PM exam. It's like an. That was my huge light bulb moment because I had passed many exams that were very difficult for architects. And I was like, whoa, if this guy can do it, because that's not what he went to school for either, maybe I could do it too. So to make a long story short, I set up a website and I just dumped all the information I knew about one particular exam, the hardest one, it was called the Lead exam. Leed, which stands for Leadership and Energy and Environmental Design. It's super boring, super dry. But wouldn't you know, like, that thing changed my entire life because. And it wasn't like I put it up. And then all of a sudden, I started to make money. I worked on it for 16 hours a day, connecting in forums and other communities. I worked my butt off to become the expert in that space. And slowly but surely, people started to ask me for a book. And I was like, I'm not even qualified to write a book. I didn't go to school for any of this stuff. But I ended up spending a month writing a Word document of everything that I knew, putting it into a PDF file and selling that for $19. And in October of 2008, I sold that thing and I made $7,908.55 that month.

I love it.

Which just completely blew my. First of all, I thought The FBI was going to come because I was like, this is unreal. Like, this can't be legal. But it was an ebook.

Pat, say again, Was it an ebook?

It was an ebook, which was done very specifically because I got a lot of inspiration at the time from. From Tim Ferriss. He had just come out with his Four Hour Workweek book. And I was like, I don't believe in this four Hour Workweek thing, but I do believe in what he talks about related to automation and setting up systems. And so I didn't want to have to print out this book and go to the post office. I wanted to see how I could easily deliver this to people immediately and take a lot of the workload off my plate. And so people could come to the website, they could buy the book and then get it delivered to them immediately. And I would often wake up with an extra 300, $400 in my bank account. And I made more money doing that than I was in architecture, which was just incredible. And the income continued to grow. I started to add new products like an audiobook to go along with it and other courses. And then I was making $25,000 a month doing this. And a lot of people were asking me, pat, how did you even figure this out? And how did you manage this? Can you show me? So that's when I built smartpassiveincome.com, which was to show people very transparently and authentically the ins and outs of just how this world of online business works. Because when I was doing research in online business, trying to figure it out, all I came across were these people who were like, hey, I have all the secrets, but you have to pay money to get access to it, or you can get rich quick. You can make a million dollars tomorrow. And I just knew that wasn't true. And I wanted to show people the honest way to do it. And the truth is, number one, it takes a lot of work. There's no such thing as overnight success. Number two, there's no such thing as 100% passive income either. A lot of people hear that, that my brand is smart passive income, and they're like, oh, this guy's just gonna. He's another one of those get rich quick guys. And no, I use those terms specifically on my website to grab people before the snake oil salesman do. And then I say, you know what? This is hard work. It takes a lot of active creation first before you can even think about automating this thing, before you can have other people do the work for you or find software to do it for you. Most of all, it just takes solving people's problems.

Yeah.

And since then, I've built several businesses. Everything from a software company, an iPhone app company, niche websites, and the food truck space and security guard training space, a physical product, and many other different kinds of businesses. Showing everybody how I did it. And it's not always a beautiful path, but it's always a lesson. Which is why they call me the crash test dummy of online business. Because I put myself in that situation so that I can make sure that everybody's safe on the other end.

Oh my gosh. I have so many questions now. And I don't know if you know this about me because we've never really chatted about ourselves stories, but my story started exactly the Same way in 2008. Same thing, stock market, housing market crash. My very first product was an ebook on something very different. Seven Day Jumpstart, which is now a best selling book in stores. But Same thing changed my life through an ebook, through that same experience. So I didn't know we had that same background, which is, which is crazy to me. But there's a big difference. And that's what I want to dive into, is that you kept going and as you were mastering something, you were then teaching people how you did it. I did not do that. So now I've got a million questions on how, like, what made you go that angle versus like, okay, this ebook worked. I should create another ebook on the next problem or take me through that.

Yeah, I mean, the big thought process was after the success with greenexamacademy.com, a number of my friends and people who I saw who were in architecture with me, I saw them struggling and I said, well, if I could figure this out, anybody could figure it out, because I am not the smartest person in the world and I didn't go to business school. And as long as you're creating something that serves people, then you can make it work. And we all have these superpowers or special experiences that we could offer the world. And so that was my thinking. I felt like it was a way for me to help more people in a much deeper way. Because when people would pass this exam, it's like there was no need for me to ever chat with them again. And who knows what they did with this exam and this credential versus I could take somebody who's tired of their nine to five or who had just gotten laid off, and I can truly see a transformation in their lives when they start building something and seeing even just a couple dollars come in that were seemingly made out of nowhere. Nothing is made out of nowhere. But I remember my first income online was a result of this website that I was building in the architecture space before I had an ebook. I put Google Adsense on the website. And Google Adsense is a way for you to make money through sort of ads that Google places on your website. And I remember the moment I put that up, I woke up the next morning and I saw $1.18, $1.18 in my account. And it was the most incredible feeling in the world. Yes, I could find that, like at the bottom of my car. But to know that I created something and then I had money come at the same time, I was like, wow, this is incredible. And that kept me going too. So my goal is to help people get their first dollars online to really something happens in the brain in terms of motivation and just belief when you have those small, little quick wins. And so, you know, for me, my strategy is, you know, I'm not here and I can't even promise that you'll make a million dollars from what I teach you, but I can promise that you will have your first customers and you will see some money come in. And that often is motivation to get people those bigger goals down the road.

Totally. So some questions here. So when you did this back in 2008, when this first happened, this was newer. So not everybody had ebooks. And you and I lucked out in that way where we were cutting edge with that, really, now everybody's got that. Is it too late for people? Can people jumping in now still create that smart passive income online? And is it only online that you teach or is it really just. Is it in any different area? All different areas.

The truth is, you'll only run out of opportunities if nobody ever has problems. And as we all know, there are so many different problems that certain groups of people are always having. And so I think it always starts with selecting a market or a niche or a group of people and truly honing in on what their pains, their problems, their needs, their issues are. And so whenever anybody asks me, pat, okay, you're uber successful. This is crazy. I'm so inspired, but I don't even know where to start. Is it too late? And I say no, what you need to do is pick a group of people that you have an interest in or a passion for. Maybe it's something that you already do, and you can go out and do research by having real life conversations. I can't tell you how many people want to do an online business but never have a real life conversation. They think online means I can kind of just do this behind the scenes and do keyword research and kind of game the system that way. But truly, if you want to help people, talk to them, ask them questions like, what's your biggest challenge right now? What are you struggling with? What have you purchased that you thought was going to solve your problems and why didn't it? And that combined with a lot of the forums that are out there where people are having discussions in that niche, to the product reviews on Amazon, for example, which is a great place to do research, you can look at the three star reviews to literally see people go, hey, I have this problem. I bought this because of it. And this product is great because of these reasons, but not so great because of these reasons. You actually have an advantage coming in later because you can see and read the label from the outside. Everybody else who's doing it can't see the label because we're all, we're all on the inside. We're in the inside of the bottle. So you have an advantage. And the other advantage that, and this is really, this relates to my latest book that just came out, Super Fans, is that when you're starting out and you're small, you have the opportunity to create a real connection with somebody, much more than a big giant company can with an individual. So your superpower is the ability for you to connect with a larger portion of your audience. So you might think, oh, I only have an email list of 25 people. Well, that's your opportunity to get to know exactly who those 25 people are. What are their names, what are their likes, dislikes, what's their life like? And how can you inject some solution into that where it becomes a win for everybody? And that's how I like to do and teach business, where the things that you offer and serve your audience with, it's a win for everybody. Yes, you're making money too, but you're also helping that person with something that they're dealing with, making something more convenient. And as I always say, your earnings are a byproduct of how well you serve your audience.

Yeah. And I, what you just said is so brilliant. And I hope people really heard that because people do get really stuck on that number. Like, oh, I don't have a big social media, I don't have a big email list. And I, what you just said is so true. It's almost. And I. And I can speak from my own experience that a smaller number I had, the more I was able to go deeper and reach people, really connect with them, I think the larger number gets muddied down. And like you said, you can't fully connect with everybody.

Right? Right. And at the same time, let's say you have just 25 people on your email list, but they get to know you and they love you. It's similar to how business used to be done way back in the day, before all that we have now. Right. You would go to. This is the example that my good friend Chris uses all the time. You go to Bob the baker, not just because he has good bread, but because when you walk in, Bob goes, hey, Natalie, how are you? How are the kids? How's your family? How's your husband doing? Like, how was that festival you went to last weekend? You feel a real connection there. And even if a supermarket were to open between you and Bob's bakery, you would still make the extra trek because you have this relationship with Bob. And Bob is going to talk about you, Bob. If you help him, he's going to offer you to everybody else that he has a connection with. So you can have those 25 people only, but serve them so well that they will serve you back. Not just by perhaps paying you for whatever you offer or getting your coaching service or whatever, but they're going to recommend you like it's their job.

That's amazing. I love that. I love that. Okay, so when you paint the picture of what you sort of evolved, how it started, you were an architecture, you started this sort of by accident, but you wanted to help people, and you kept growing from there. And you do so many things now, I'm assuming not everything was just perfect. Hit, jackpot, worked. Can you talk us through that? Because on the outside, it always looks like everything's so perfect for people.

But the.

But for many listening, it's like, oh, but it doesn't work for me, or it didn't work for me. And I want to know from you, was it all perfect? Did you have failures? And how did you learn from those?

I love this question because we often get jaded by other people's highlight reels. We compare our whole life to other people's highlight reels. So I really love that you're asking this question and I would love to ask you, do we have five to ten hours to talk about all the problems?

I love it.

Probably not, but I'll go over some. And yes, it definitely was not all unicorns and Rainbows along the way. I mean, even immediately after I started, there were so many sort of demons in my head and voices telling me that I couldn't do this. That was number one. So it wasn't like I had this confidence from day one to get things started. I was. I was going into a world that I never stepped into before. And as a result, all this fear and just everything from, am I even qualified to do this? Like the sort of imposter syndrome to didn't. Feeling like I was. I was good enough to. What were my parents going to think since they paid my way through architecture school? Am I letting them down by choosing this new career? So those were the initial battles, but then there were other things. Like, a few months after I started, I got this letter from the United States Green Building Council, which is the company and organization that puts on this exam. And it basically said, hey, stop what you're doing or else we're going to sue you. Oh. I was like, okay. I freaked out. I started crying because I was like, okay, this is proof. Like, this is showing me that I was just way over my head. And eventually I found an attorney. And they said, well, all you're doing is you're using the word lead in your domain name. You just can't. You can't use a trademark in your domain name. And I was like, oh, I guess that makes sense. But I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm just kind of taking it day by day. And he's like, just change the domain name and everything will be fine. So that's what I did. And the United States Green Building Council has been very favorable of the work that I do.

That's amazing right there. Because I think so many people would have quit at that threat. Because, like, just when you said that, I'm thinking, okay, you made $7,000 on the C book and now they're going to sue you. My head would have gone to. It's going to cost me that to get an attorney and, you know, the whole thing.

Right.

How did you keep going versus, like, quitting? Because I think a lot of people will get in their head around that.

I was so determined to help people. That's what got me through it. I was like, okay, like, this thing that I'm creating is serving so many people that are also taking your exam. Like, I'm actually helping you, too. So let's talk about this. And that got me through it. Plus, just connecting with people and realizing that, you know, if you want to build a business you have to have other people in your corner as well to wear some of the other hats, especially legally or with accounting and things like that, which I'm not really great at. So eventually I just changed the domain name and everything was fine and we've been good partners ever since. So that's one example.

I love that you just said that, Pat, by the way, because people listening will pick this up. But like so many people, they're so centered on them making money and what's in it for them that that feels the setback. But what you just said is I was so focused on that vision of helping people, like you were creating a win win. I'm helping people and yes, I'm going to get paid for it. But I believe that's why you persevered over that is because your vision was that 100%, 100%.

I think that'll keep you going no matter what. Because business and life is not a straight line. It's a roller coaster, right? And oftentimes the best moments are happening right after the lowest moments. Seth Godin wrote this book called the Dip, where there's patterns in life where the most amazing things happen right after the most terrible things happen often. And think about my journey. It's like I got laid off and it was terrible. And then that led to all these amazing things and these opportunities I did. However, after finding success there and getting a lot of people to follow me at Smart Passive Income, I did go down a wrong direction just to what happened, honest and upfront with Everybody. So in 2010, a few of my friends who are also doing online businesses who had smaller audiences than I did, I had a bigger email list, not that those numbers are important, but I was just comparing. And they launched their own WordPress WordPress as a blogging platform, their own WordPress Premium plugins. They were selling them for anywhere between 60 to $90 to do some things on a person's website. And they had each made. They were in different spaces within the WordPress space, but they each made over a hundred thousand dollars over a weekend. And I was just like, whoa, okay, hold the phone. I have a much bigger list. I have this audience who I've built trust with. I can create some plugins too and probably make a good amount of money as well. So I found a developer. I had this idea in my head for a plugin. I gave him the idea. And what was supposed to take six weeks and about $6,000 of investment to get this thing done took six months and over $15,000 Whoa. And in the end, I never even launched the product.

Oh, wow.

So I made a lot of mistakes there. The biggest mistake was I was chasing the money. I was doing this just for the money. I didn't start with solving people's problems. I started with, okay, what can I create with this audience that I've built to monetize? And that was mistake number one. Mistake number two was I didn't fully flesh out what this idea for the plugin was. I had an idea of the end result, but I didn't have truly. I didn't wireframe or quite understand how it was gonna work. So I just gave it to a person and basically gave them freedom to fill in those gaps. And what I've learned in the software space is you need to be very, very clear with what's happening, what things look like, and where people go, or else it's just gonna be a mess. And there was just so much back and forth, and developer was getting upset at me because I wasn't giving him enough detail, but I was getting upset at him because I had figured that he should know the way things should work. And again, it just was a complete mess. And the saddest part of the story was at the end, I shared this plugin before I launched it. I shared it with a few of my colleagues and friends, and they were just like, it's okay, I guess. And I was like, what do you mean? Like, this is like, I kept it a secret the whole time, and then I was going to launch it and have this big deal about it, but I shared it with my friends, and I thought they were going to be blown away, and they weren't, but they started to go, oh, well, what if it did this instead? Oh, maybe it should do this. Yeah, this is a good start. But what if it did this? And I was like, I don't have any more money to make this anything else than what it is, and it's not worth selling anymore. So what I realized is that as you're creating your businesses or creating solutions for people, you must share them ahead of time. And I think a lot of people go, well, aren't people gonna steal my idea? The benefits of sharing your idea and having people poke holes in it is so much more than the off chance that a person will steal. I mean, you're the one working on it. You're the one. We all say, we're gonna start things, or, oh, that's a good idea. Maybe I should do that too. Most people aren't gonna copy your idea and they don't have your energy or passion to help people. But what they will tell you is, oh, it should do this instead. Or oh, I like that, but maybe you don't need that. And then you can save a lot of money and time upfront learning the mistakes before you put things into place. And this relates to why I wrote my book in 2016 called Will it fly how to test your next business idea so you don't waste your time and money. Because this has literally happened to me a couple times and it happens to people all the time who go, oh, I have this idea. I'm going to create this course or program and I'm going to sell it. And then here it is, now I'm going to announce it and they're shouting from the rooftops like, buy my thing. And then nobody's buying. It's because you just thought you guessed. You don't have to guess. You connect with your audience and they will tell you what they need and you build it for them.

And it's interesting that you just said this happened a few times to you. So it's almost like it happened a few times. So you would get that. Like you weren't seeing that connection there right away, right?

I wasn't. And again, the big mistake, however, was just chasing the money. I think if you chase the solution and chase giving results to people, the money will come.

I fully agree with you. But what I want to ask you, because this happens too. What do you tell somebody or maybe you've been there, that is feeling like they're forced to chase the money because of a situation. And let me, let me explain. So there's two situations I see happen. Either people are in their personal rock bottom financial starting like maybe what happened to you in 2008, or they were successful and now they're not successful. So something didn't work. They're struggling and they need the money. So that that word is need. Because they're feeling that that way. So they make decisions out of desperation. Can you speak into that? Because that's critical. And I think why a lot of people do chase money, right?

And I think that chasing money is not a terrible thing. I think it's how that motivates you that really matters.

Okay.

If you are in need of money, for example, you can use that energy and motivation for good to get to the bottom of people's problems sooner to find those solutions.

I like that.

If that makes sense. So, you know, the quickest way to generate money would be to potentially coach Somebody and help them with something that you can give them an immediate result from. And that's something that you can just pitch and create sort of on the spot if you'd like and help your friends, family, your network, what have you. The way that I teach it in my book, Will It Fly? Is you do the research to get to the bottom of people's problems or pick a particular niche and then you can pre sell whatever it is that you're creating, whether it is an online course or coaching program to say. And basically. And you're honest with it too, because Tim Ferriss, in his book Four Hour Work Week, he did a pre selling strategy, but it was like set up this webpage to pretend like your product exists but just say you're out of stock or something. That way you can gauge whether or not people would even click the buy now button. And that was pretty cool. But what I recommend for pre selling is letting everybody know, hey guys, I'm thinking of creating a boot camp for nutrition. And those of you who are struggling with your diets, I want to hold you accountable for the next eight weeks. And I'm going to teach you this, this and this. And If I get 10 people to sign up, I'm going to do it. If not, then I'll just give you your money back. So here, vote with your dollars. You let me know if this is something you want or if you have any questions, let me know and I'll talk to you on a dm.

Brilliant.

And that's a quick way to just pre sell something, get a little bit of influx of cash, but then have people vote with their dollars versus what a lot of people do is go, hey, I have this idea. Is that something you'd be interested in? And they go, well, yeah, totally. Like let me know when it comes out and then by the time it comes out, yeah. Oh, I was just being nice to you.

I love that concept of vote with your dollars because you're right, there's too many people pleasers out there and they're saying that just to be nice and then we think that our thing's gonna fly and it's not. I love that.

Right? Tim Ferriss says don't ask them if they would buy, ask them to buy ahead of time again, have them vote with their dollars and you can give them like a special deal. You can also let them know this is like the only time it's going to be at this price. And since, you know, you call it like your beta group or your charter members or Your champion early goers or whatever funding you want to offer to your community.

I do that. Pat, I love that you're saying this. I do that. I did that with my aging and reverse community. I did a founding member offer first. So we had people do that. And then even now that it's opened, I do a trial membership. So it's super, like inexpensive. $10 just to try it. And I find what you're saying works so much better because then I know people are interested, they're committing with $10, they check it out. It's a win win all the way around.

Right, right. And to make it even more simple, let's just get one customer to get one result, because that'll do some things to you mentally that are just game changing for your future business. And what that gives you is confidence. Because a lot of times, especially if you're just starting out, you're like, I don't know if this is going to work or not. So why would you launch it to thousands of people wondering if it's gonna work or not? Versus let's find and connect with one person who I know truly has this problem. Let me serve them, and let's just see if this works. Let's see if this is. Let's even see if it's something I want to do, because I don't know if this is gonna work for me personally, let alone the person I'm doing this for. So you can kind of like a little petri dish that you can test in. If it gets out of control or doesn't work, then at least you have it in that control dish totally in the lab that you're in versus just out there in the world to spread maybe in a way that you didn't want. So the beauty of this is when you get that result, even if it's just one person, it inspires you, it motivates you, because where there's one, there's many. And you'll also have a testimonial from somebody that's real that you've actually helped. So then when you pitch it to somebody else, you can go, oh, here's, you know, here's Gillian, who I helped. And she is just like you before. She had these issues and problems, and she worked with me over the last eight weeks. Look at her now. And if this is something that you want to do too, like, you can ask her questions. And obviously Jillian's going to be thrilled with the results and would likely want to help you sell this thing and help others too.

So good. So good. How did you. I'm assuming that because you did that a few times initially where you realized you were chasing the money and that was the wrong thing, and then you kind of got regrounded to who you are and wanting to help people. Do you find yourself fighting that now? Does that come up or, like, you'll hear an idea or so. And so is doing this, and I want to do that. And how do you talk yourself through that?

Yeah, and it legit is talking myself through it, because I, you know, we as humans, we just can't help but play that comparison game. And I think that that's fine that it exists, but like, with chasing the money, you have to understand, well, what are the motivations? How is that going to motivate you? So for me, when I see my friends and my colleagues do some amazing things, and I go, oh, I should do that too. I'm gonna go, well, I'm going to opt out of that. You know, there's. Have you ever heard of fomo? Fear of missing out?

Of course I have it every day.

Right. I think that's a big issue. And why we do certain things or say yes to things when we shouldn't. The hard thing about that is, especially if you have a family and you have other obligations, when you say yes to something, you're also saying no to something else. And so that's really important to think about. But I think that the joy of opting out is something we should all be thrilled with. And what that means is seeing somebody else do something, but not just, like, pretending to be okay with it, but actually being confident in your decision that that's not for you right now and staying in your lane. So, hey, you know what? I'm opting out of that, and I am proud of that. And because I have these other things that I've already said yes to. And I think that's a difficult thing to do, but I've been training myself to do that. And the other thing is just realizing that, you know, I have my lane that I'm in right now, and how might that add or subtract to the lane that I'm in? And if it. If it might add to it, then I'll do a little bit more research. But in most cases, I am now at that point where I can more easily say no? And, you know, again, it always comes down to, how does this serve my audience? I think that's the ultimate question. And if it doesn't, then it's a. It's an easy no.

Do you ever miss architecture because that was your passion, that's what you got into, that's what you did. Or do you feel you still kind of do that, but like, not in buildings now you're basically architecture for businesses.

What I loved about architecture, I get a little bit of what I do now because I can spend a lot of time researching and building something for other people to use. But instead of like walking through it and sleeping in it or participating inside that space, now they're learning from me with another creation. So I still get those feelings of working hard on something and being patient with the creation of it. But also design is really important to me as well. And that finds its way through a lot of the stuff that I touch, which is great. There are obviously parts of architecture that I'm so happy and thankful that I don't have to deal with anymore, like the 60 hour work weeks or the lack of appreciation for that work, because honestly, architects are severely underpaid for what they do and they get no recognition. If I were to ask any listener who's with us right now, who built the house that they live in, you likely don't even know. You probably wouldn't even know the architecture builder unless it was like your grandfather, right? And you're on your farm or something.

Totally.

So it's like, you know, now that I can, you know, I helped people pass an exam, like, that's nothing compared to, you know, building a building that people slept sleep in. However, people send me emails like, pat, you've helped me get a raise, you've helped me get a promotion. You've helped me, you know, and they call me by name and they recognize me and they share me, even though I'm just helping people in this little tiny space. So this idea of becoming somebody's favorite in a micro way, in a micro space, microcosm is really real. And I think that for those of you who, you know, want to go back to that question that we, you had asked earlier, which is, is it too late? Or, you know, how can we compete? I mean, that's how it is. You become somebody's favorite and you can niche down the niches or in the riches are in the niches, as I often say, and you can build from there.

So good. So good. How did you go? Okay, I want to, I want to pivot a little bit because I know you also have a top performing podcast and I, I want to. I'm curious how you started that because you said you originally learned a podcast in 2008, when nobody else was really doing them there, it was really a brand new thing. What made you want to start one? And was that being tied to what you do with Smart Passive Income? Were you starting it for your own knowledge? What? Tell us, Take us through that and what it took to start that.

So my first experience with listening to a podcast was 2007. It was with that group, Internet Business Mastery, and they changed my life. I mean, I became friends with them even though I didn't know them, because I was listening to them religiously kind of every single day. So when I started my business and then found success there, and then was encouraged to create smartpassiveincome.com I always knew that I wanted to start a podcast because the podcast changed my life. And I knew that a podcast would be a great way to connect with an audience there as well. So December of 2008, just a couple months after starting Smart Passive Income, I. What I did was I bought all this podcasting equipment, and then I actually recorded a sample recording to let everybody know that my podcast was coming early the next year in 2009. And it was like, it's the most ridiculous recording. It's still online, but it's just. I don't sound confident at all in what I'm doing. But I put it out there and I was proud of myself. My first episode didn't come out until July of 2010, a year later.

Why? Why so long?

Because I was so scared. I was so scared, Natalie, of just what people would say about my voice and what people would think about it. Would people even listen? The technology was a lot harder back then also. Just so every time I tried to figure it out, I was just like, blogging is easier. Let me go back to doing that. But then I finally got the first episode out, and it was interesting because I was only podcasting every other week because that's all I could kind of figure out and do at the time. And then I went to this conference at the end of the year in 2010, and it was called New Media Expo or Blog World Expo back in the day. And I went there, and even though I was blogging three times a week and podcasting every other week, every person who came up to me who said, you know, thank you for what you do, they all mentioned the podcast. I love that story you told about this, or, oh, that. That guest you had on the show was amazing. And I'm like, okay, that's great. But what about my blog? I'm blogging way More like, somebody say something about that, please. And nobody was saying it, but it makes sense because on a podcast, right, people are telling stories and they're sharing information in a. In context that we can all relate to versus top five tips for running Facebook ads. Right? Like, we don't remember that. We remember the stories and the person and the voice on the other end. So that's when I switched from bi weekly to weekly. And then fast forward a couple years later, I added another show called Ask Pat, which was sort of like a coaching call with my audience on top of my other show, Smart Passive Income. And now, you know, we're close to 20, 20. 68 million downloads later combined across all podcasts that I have over 1300 episodes recorded. And I've now had. I now have a mission to help other people start their podcast too, because it's been absolutely game changing in so many ways. Not just with growing my audience and building my brand and authority, but number one, the connections with people who are on my show, just like you and I are connecting right now. We're building a friendship here in our conversation. We've had mutual friends for so long, and now we finally get to chat. But also the audience is a fly on the wall listening in, and hopefully they're having a great time and they're building a relationship with us, too. Some of my best friends have come as a result of just an initial conversation on a podcast. Yeah, I now have students who are like. Because I asked my students, like, why do you want to start a podcast? Many of them go, well, I just want to connect with industry leaders. Right. It doesn't even matter how many downloads they have. It's just a great asset to have to go, hey, Tim Ferriss, do you want to come to my show? I'll help you. That's how I was able to get access to Tim Ferriss and Gary Vaynerchuk and Donald Miller from storybrand and all these other people who I would never. Who would normally never give me the light of day. Right. So that's number one. Number two, it's also given me a platform that has been very impressive for other companies who want to get in front of it, including publishers or conferences who want to have me speak. When you have two people and they're the exact same, but one has a podcast and the other doesn't, the one with the podcast is always going to outshine because they have that platform and people know the kind of trust that you could build with your audience. So book publishers are coming at me and conference directors want to have me speak because they're hearing a preview of it on the podcast. Right. And if you have anything to sell, what better way to sort of warm people up than with your voice ahead of time pre a sale or an offer of some kind? I mean, it's just a beautiful platform that I highly recommend for everybody.

What I love about you too, and this is really standing out for me, is, you know, people, if you were to Google your name right now, it looks like you have it all together. Like you've got this big empire, this super successful podcast, this great programs, books, all those things. But what I love is everything you started, you started messy. You started messy. Like your very first book was an ebook you did on a Word document, which is how I started mine too. You started a podcast just recording, not knowing how to do it, but you just did it. You, like, went for it anyway. And I love that. How. How can people tap into that? Because that's a gift that you have. It's a gift that I have too, that we just go for it anyway, despite the conversations in our head. What would you tell somebody listening to just to get them to get started without being in their head around that?

Yeah, I mean, you have to be a disaster before you become the master. It's just how anybody starts anything. I got that quote from John Lee Demons, by the way. Just credit to where credit's due. But for me, when I grew up, this is the interesting thing. I would come home with a 97% on my math test, and my parents would be like, well, what happened to the other 3%? And we would work for four or five hours just getting all the little things that I got wrong so that I could be perfect. And that's how I grew up. And so I was perfect. I felt I got a 4.22 grade point average. I was like mastering everything that I was touching. But then when I got laid off, it was a big wake up call for me because it made me realize that, wow, even if you do everything correctly, things may not go the way you want.

That's huge.

And that was a big moment for me to realize that I have to take control. And I have to realize that messing up is a part of the process. And sometimes, even though you're perfect, things may go not the way you want, therefore, you must be okay with it. And as long as you learn from those situations, then you can grow and be better. You know, fall forward is what they say, because as long as you're falling forward, you're actually still making progress. Right. So what I always recommend people do, especially if you're in your own head and you have these demons in your voice that are perfectionism or procrastination or, you know, all these things are getting in the way. What serves me now is understanding that, am I gonna let perfectionism or my perfectionist and procrastination, am I gonna let that get in the way of me helping people? Like, if I. And this is the analogy I love to use, you're on a boat, right? And there's a person in your target audience who's swimming in the water. They're drowning. Are you gonna go, you know, I'm too scared to help you. The water is kind of cold? No, you would absolutely reach over. Are you gonna say, just going to wait till tomorrow to help you? No, you wouldn't do that. Or are you going to say, well, the boat is not perfectly stable. If I were to reach over and it has to be perfect. No, you would go and help that person like a good human being would. And so this is what you're building online. You're building this platform like a boat, and there's people out there drowning that need you. So how could you possibly be so selfish to let your own fear, your own perfectionism, procrastination, Procrastination get in the way?

That's so good, Pat, how did you. I'm curious how you got to that point, because. Did you. Was it personal development work? Did you have, like. How did you get such an amazing awareness? Because it's interesting, like, you and I have totally different backgrounds there. Like, you. You had the 97%, your parents asking about the 3%. I had the parents that, like, I was basically failing out of school. They're like, oh, you don't care about school anyway, just work and make money. So it was, like, completely opposite. So my gap is I need to work on more details and perfection, all those things. So how did you break through that? Because that holds so many people back. Like, was it a therapist? Was it personal development? Was it literally just your own failures? I'm curious how you got that awareness.

It was a lot of awareness from other people who were more successful than me. And some of those people I had direct access to because I joined their programs or I got. You know, I saw them at events and whatnot and learned from them. And I saw that they all sort of behaved in a very similar way of just, you know, ready, fire, aim. Sometimes.

Yeah.

And mostly just learning from that process that they. That they do. And hearing all their origin stories was very encouraging because we all kind of start from zero and so did they. And it made me realize that there was a path already laid out in front of me. And if I just pick a person that I really believe in who has a future similar to what I want, then I can just follow through his tracks. He had the machete going through the forest and has already cleared a track for us. So that's number one. And number two, I can't tell you how important connecting with other colleagues and friends has been in the space. Ones who will beat me up a little bit if I need it, or be truthful with me if I don't see everything the way it actually is. So Mastermind.

So getting feedback from people, actually giving you feedback like, this is what's in your gap, this is what's not working right.

Or when I get to that point where I am fearful or I am procrastinating a reminder from the outside, because it's like we're inside the bottle, we can't read the label. The other people in my life can read that label for me. And these are people that I trust. And I'm in two mastermind groups that have met every week consistently for the last seven years, and then another every.

Week for seven years. Wow.

These are my. I mean, the top of my list is my family, right. My wife, kids, and God. And then underneath that is my mastermind. Then my best friends. Like, it literally is.

Wow.

And some of them are my best friends, too. But I mean, it's so important to have this sort of circle of trust where we can be brutally honest, where we will not take those things personally because we need those things from people who are in the same space. Now, my wife, for example, she's amazing and she's so supportive, but I can't talk to her about my upcoming launch and how I'm feeling like I can't do it. She'll give me some good, like, encouragement, but she hasn't gone through a launch of her own either. So it's like I need people who are in this space with me to kind of show me the light where I can't see it. So that's, that's been really important for me too. So that, that, that's been really encouraging because then I see them go through issues and have problems and I, you know, I'm reading their label, they're inside their own bottle, and I can see it perfectly.

Yeah.

When it comes back to me, I'm reminded of when I saw it in them. And I can just kind of take my own medicine at that point.

Pat, I feel compelled to ask you this because you've been so honest with so many other things. How does one navigate. And I know people, there's a lot of people listening now that are not in masterminds. They keep hearing that because so many guests I've had mentioned masterminds. How does one navigate that? Because it seems like you log on to Facebook and everyone that does anything online now has a mastermind for X amount of dollars. And it's three times a year. It's like the same formula. How do people know like what's real, what's fluff? Do they create their own like any advice there?

Yeah, I mean the masterminds that we see often because we are retargeted in ads are those paid groups and are the ones that. And those are fantastic too. I've joined those as well because those give you direct access to a particular leader and the community that they have of like minded people. And that's, that's one way to go about of joining a group of people in that way. However, I know a lot of us just can't afford that or we just don't have access to those groups. And so these two groups that I mentioned, these are not paid groups, these are friends who I've developed relationships with over time. And those relationships started honestly at events. So we get to meet each other in, you know, we're in the same sort of industry or online business space and you know, you meet people there and you kind of get a vibe for who you know, you know, you connect with and then you can sort of continue those conversations away from the conference. And that this is sort of what they've been molded into. And we've invited other people since then so that they all, they've all been created from scratch.

How many people approximately do you have in something like that? I'm just, I'm wondering.

Ideally you'd want to have four to five maps in my opinion. However, you can just have one other buddy to be honest and just start and have a regular call where you're holding each other accountable. You're sort of sharing quite openly what you are dealing with and what you might need help with. And you know, you're brutally honest with the person when they need it. But four or five people works because then you can get in what's called the hot seat. What I've learned about these masterminds because I've been in several is that they need to be formally structured. Because I've been in masterminds before where you're just like, let's get on a call and then we just talk about, you know, life and kids and family and then all of a sudden the hours over and it's just we got nothing done. Fun to catch up, but it didn't really help us with what we need help with right now. So formally structured. And the way that my mastermind calls are structured and many others is y' all get on a call, they don't even have to be in person. Actually one of them meet on freeconference call.com on Mondays. The one on Wednesdays meets on like gotomeeting. So something so you can all be.

Room or something that's like remote. You don't have to be in person.

Correct, correct. And we do try to meet in person once a year at least just because there's something magical that happens when you do meet in person. But the way these calls are structured, it's like this one hour total, the first 10 minutes. Every person just shares a big win from the last week. And that kind of sets everybody up for success. It helps us kind of rally for each other. And since we've known where we came from, we can all sort of celebrate together. And it really puts us in a positive mood. Into the hot seat. The hot seat is a 40 minute conversation. One person is in the hot seat and they are there to sort of present a situation or an issue or a concept or topic that they need help. And these other brain people, these other people, this brain trust to kind of support them with. And then you just chat for 40 minutes and sometimes it goes shorter, but usually it's about 40 minutes. And then the last 10 minutes each person goes around and says, hey, here's what I'm going to accomplish by next week. And by pronouncing that out loud, you're sort of having the other group members hold you accountable. And you kind of know that next week if you don't do it, somebody's going to go, well, why didn't you do it? And then it's good. You don't want to be.

This is really brilliant. And I love that I asked you this question right now and like literally I just took like 10 pages of notes and But I'm like, this is happening today. All my friends are getting a call that are in the space about doing that same type of mastermind.

I think, oh cool. Yeah, I mean, and it's great because this, you know, Next week is your hot seat, and you can kind of think about a little bit of what you'd like the group and, you know, it's. It's an amazing time.

I love that. I love that. What would you tell somebody that's listening right now if they're in their own personal. They're in their head, and they're in their rock bottom. Because we know, we all know a lot of that is in our heads, the stories that we're making up about that. But they're in that place right now where they're thinking, I'm not perfect enough or it's not good enough, or whatever's not working in their life right now they're stuck on. If you were going to help, give them some advice on how they can start shifting and creating everything from nothing, because you're the master at that. What would you tell them?

Well, I would tell them a story about when I got laid off, which I told you already. But the part that I didn't tell you was when I had gotten laid off, I went home and I escaped reality by watching my favorite movie 60 times in a row.

What's your favorite movie?

It's called Back to the Future.

You watched it 60 times in a row?

I did. It's my absolute favorite movie. And the reason why I watched it was because it made me believe that maybe there was this thing called a time machine that would actually be created one day where I could go back in the time and get a different job or work a little bit harder or change things so I wasn't going through that depressed state that I was in. But after the 1 hour, 37 minutes and 18 seconds, the movie would end and I'd come back to reality. There was no time machine. But after watching it 60 times and literally just, like, eating junk food and being depressed, I eventually realized that, okay, this is a fictional story. It is not true. There is no time machine. But there is some truth to the story. And that truth is. And I don't know if you've seen the movie, but Marty McFly, the main character, right, 1985, he goes back in time to when his parents were kids, and he meets them and things change a little bit, and events happen such that when he goes back to where he came from in the future, everything's different, right? So, no, we don't have a time machine to go back and change things and come back to where we are now, and things will be different. But we are in our own time machine right now because we are riding Our future at this very moment. And so how you choose to behave, how you choose to take action or no action now, writing your story for the future, such that if you were to take a time machine into the future, things would be based on what you do right now. So we have every ability to write our story from this very moment. And so I eventually realized in that time that I had to get up and figure things out. And I'm very thankful that I had the lead of Jason and Jeremy from Internet business masteries to sort of give me inspiration and show me that there was a path. I think it's really important to find a path, meaning you have to really get clear with, okay, well, although things may not be the way you want now, how would you want things to be? And then sort of reverse engineer, okay, well, what would help me get there? Who would help me get there? And then. And then take the steps, the baby steps to make that happen and realize that, you know, I think that it all comes down to, especially if it comes down to, you know, building a business, if that's. If that's what you'd like to do. Building a business is simply finding out the best way to solve a problem, making it easy for yourself to do that, to do that, versus overcomplicating things like we always do. So you have the opportunity to write your story right now. What's that story gonna be? How is that ending gonna pan out for you?

It's so good. And I think a lot of people try to escape through that depression. They don't wanna feel those feels and be there. But just as you said, I mean, and I've been there, and so many other people I've interviewed have been there, like you, you have to almost walk through that because there is something good on the other side. And if you try to just numb that out and ignore it, or some people turn to substances or just. They just sleep it out. They don't ever actually feel that feels and process it.

Yeah. I think that with great pain comes great gain, as we often hear in strength training and whatnot. But I think it's true in life. And so you can choose to use this pain that you're in for motivation, for growth, for a better life on the other end. And I've gone through some stuff with my layoff. I know some people who've gone through terrible things related to other people in their life. And, you know, many people have come out of those situations much better, much more fulfilled, much happier person. So although you might be down in the, in the darkness right now, there are people and there are things out there that will help bring you back to an amazing lighted area.

So, Pat, if everything fell apart for you right now, again, like, smart, passive income is gone. Instagram, Facebook, podcast, disappear, like it's all gone tomorrow, what would you do? How would you, would you go back to those same basics? What would you do?

Well, my follow up question would be, do I still have the people who know me? And the reason why I'm asking that is because throughout my business, and this is what I teach others to do, I want you to build for superfans, the people who will love you for you. Like we love Bob the baker, like in that example I talked about earlier. Because even if Bob's bakery burnt down, right, his fans, his people will build a new bakery for him, right? So if I still have access to my people, even if I didn't have an email list, you know, and I could just set up something new online, I know that I would be okay. And that's the beauty of building fans, is that no matter what happens, no matter what technology does, no matter what algorithms get in the way of you reaching your audience, like your audience is going to find you and support you, right? So that's why I tend to go one inch wide, a mile deep with my audience versus, you know, a mile wide, one inch deep, if that makes sense. However, if I literally was starting from scratch and I didn't have any connections whatsoever, what I would really get in tune with would be, well, who do I want to serve and why and how might I be able to help them? And it really comes down again to those conversations and talking to as many people as possible. This is hard because I'm an introvert. Also, going up to somebody I don't know or who have just built a relationship with and asking sort of personal, probing questions is difficult. But you can do it in a way that is through serving and just curiosity where you can then on the other end, serve them and give them a result. And that's what's always driving me to muster through that sort of anxiety that might come with speaking to people. Because if I go, well, and again, it goes back to the boat analogy, if I see somebody drowning and I'm just like, oh, I'm too afraid to talk to that person, well, then that's not how I would actually behave in real life. So realizing that online, especially with business, that there are human beings on the other end of the podcast, there's human beings on the other End of your email list, there's human beings on the other end of that social media account that you have. Then it just makes everything so much easier. Everything for service.

And I can speak. I mean, you probably don't even remember this, but when I met you years ago, I think we were at a, it was at a San Diego, some kind of convention, Internet marketing something. But we had a lot of mutual friends in common. And I remember the conversation with you so specifically because you asked me a lot of questions about me and my business and what I was struggling with. And you, even then, when I just met you, were looking for that connection and that offering of help and solution. And you gave me your number right then and there and said, if I ever can support you in these things, it's like you were very solution oriented. So I believe if everything went away for you, you would do exactly that. You would connect with people, you'd have real conversations and you would figure out how you could help. And that's what's basically how you described in this whole podcast. You've really built your whole business. Yeah.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, if I was literally starting from scratch, here's what I would do. That would be very simple that maybe other people listening could do right now. And thank you for that and reminding me of that story. I remember meeting you and your husband and you guys are fantastic. But I would just go to social media or anybody who I knew and just go, hey, I am looking to help people and earn a little bit of extra cash. What do you need help with?

I love it.

Right? And it's interesting because a lot of times just simply you're reaching out and.

Asking the world, being authentic, no hidden agenda. I'm looking to help people and earn a little extra cash. What do you help with? So you're there, you're not hiding. It's not a bait and switch.

No, not at all. Just always be upfront, always be honest and that, that, that will serve you very well.

That's so awesome, Pat. This has just been fantastic. Where can people find you? Where can they get your programs? Where, where are you most prevalent on social media? Where do you want them to follow you?

Thank you so much. I'm Pat Flynn. On most places, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube as well. But smartpassiveincome.com is my main website and if you'd like to learn how to podcast and do it right and get people to follow you, even on day one, I'm here to help you with that too. It's kind of been My big jam lately is helping people start their podcast and so I don't know if you'll have a link for example on your show notes page or whatever down there.

For sure we'll make sure everyone can.

Find all that, hook you up as an affiliate as well and would love to serve your audience in there who want to get their voice.

Amazing. I will be an affiliate for his podcast program and I will tell you hey, he is a stand up quality guy and everything that you've shared is truly the authentic you when I've met you in person and I love it and I support everything you're doing and I can't wait to see what you even create down the road. Thank you Pat.

Thank you so much. I appreciate you. Thank you everybody.

Thanks for leveling up with us today. Please share this episode if you found it helpful so others can join in. And don't forget to hit that subscribe you don't miss out on future shows and if you would leave me a five star review. I appreciate those so much. I read all of them and it's how I know that I'm giving you information that you find valuable and come interact with me over on Instagram at nataliejelfit. I read all the direct messages and comments over there. Make it a great day. Creating everything from nothing.

Sam.