131. From Bad Boy to Family Man with Tucker Max

Hi, I'm Natalie Jill, fat loss expert turned high performance coach. When odds are stacked against us, how do we shift and create everything from nothing? How do we level up when we aren't feeling it yet or we've had a big setback. On this podcast, I'll be talking to some of the most inspiring and courageous men and women on this planet who at their worst learned how to achieve success greater than they ever dreamed possible. Leveling up and creating everything from nothing. Tucker Max, he was the ultimate party guy. Now, not in high school or college, but in law school. He figured out early that it was more fun to cut class, party and write about his life than to actually attend class. He was the ultimate bad boy. And he chrono cooled his outings and party life and emails just to friends and and those friends, they loved them. Now after being prompted to publish his chronicles, he sent them out to hundreds of publishers, all who gave him a hard no. So he did what anyone would do that believed in their work that was being rejected. He started a blog and he put it all out there. And that blog, well, it took off. So much so that MTV noticed and all those publishers that rejected him, they came back proposing four New York Times bestsellers later and three that hit number one, which have sold over four and a half million copies worldwide on the very controversial subjects. Tucker decided he had changed. And writing about his days in party world, well, they weren't him anymore. So today Tucker is the opposite of that single party guy. He's married with a family and he's co founded the ever successful scribe media that helps you write, publish and market your own book. He even published the bestselling David Goggins book. Join in today and learn exactly how Tucker Max leveled up and created everything from nothing. Today on leveling up, I've got the one and only Tucker Max who I've been dying to chat with. He is the person that you go to to write and publish a book. Now he owns and created script and that's not always who he was. In fact, he built a pretty significant brand on three books years ago that had somewhat controversial topics. And I wanted to know all the things like how that happened, how he did that, how he shifted away from that, now helps other people write and publish books. So thank you so much for being here, Tucker.

Thanks for having me.

So take us back. Tucker, you were just like the average dude that wrote on topics that other people didn't really think they should be talking about. How did that even happen?

Yeah, pretty much like, well, so after law, I went to Duke Law School, and I had, like, eight friends that were. I was real close to. And we basically, like. The trick to law school is once you realize that your entire grade is based on the exam and that, like, nothing else matters, then you stop going to class and you just party all the time. At least if you're like me and my friends, that's a good thing. Yeah, right. And so. So our last two years of law school were basically, like, ridiculous. It was. We used to joke we were like the fraternity of law school, right? Because, like, everyone else is serious, and we would just be literally going out five nights a week, getting drunk, hooking up with, you know, girls, being idiots. Like, all guys are in their 20s, except most of them in law school, aren't. We were. And so, like, a frat boy, but.

Total frat boy, but in law school.

Yeah, right, exactly. Which is funny because I wasn't actually even in a fraternity in undergrad. But, like. Like, the. The, you know, everyone assumed. Well, obviously you were. It's like, well, no, I wasn't, but you allowed to get drunk and be an idiot and not be in a fraternity. But. So then after law school, we all went to different cities to work, and I went to South Florida, which is like, the armpit of America. It's the worst. And I hated it. And so, like, to deal with my depression, basically, obviously, I drank a lot and hooked up with a lot of girls that I probably shouldn't be. But then I would write about it to my friends, right? I would send them emails, and they thought the emails were hilarious, and they kind of just blew up into this. Well, first, then my dad fired me from the family business, and I got fired from being a lawyer. And so I kind of had nothing else I could do. And so my friends were like, these emails are the only thing you do well. You should maybe do something with this. And then, you know, kind of long. Long story short, like, try to get published. Didn't. No one wanted to publish my stuff. And so I put up a website with all my stories, and this was in 2002. And it kind of blew up. And. And, you know, this is before, like, people could write on the Internet. This is before, you know, MySpace even.

Existed, before blogging was a thing.

Right? Blogging didn't exist as a word then. And so, like, it kind of took off, and then I just kind of ran. Ran with it. And I, like, just. All I did. It never occurred to me that people, like, I didn't think anyone would think my stories were funny. Except my friends.

Yeah.

Because, like, they knew me. And also, it never occurred to me that everyone else wasn't doing the same thing. Like, of course everyone else is getting drunk five nights a week and acting like a. My friends and I are, you know, like, I was. I was young and stupid, right? And so, like, then when the stories really started getting out, I realized, okay, I was wrong. Lots of people love this that don't know me. They think it's hilarious. And now a lot. Like, there are definitely a lot of people who do it, but there's a lot of people who don't as well and who are either shocked by it or offended, or they were titillated or they see it as, aspirational, which was another shocking thing to me. Like, like high school kids, like, dude, you're so cool. I can't wait till, like, I can be like you. I'm like, what are you talking about? Yeah, just go out and drink. But then, of course, to a 16 year old, someone 26 seems like a hero, right?

Yeah. So, yeah, that's so wild. Sue, I want to back up for a minute. So you were you, you said when you were in college or when you were younger, you were you that type of guy? Were you still like the party guy then or that just start evolving in law school?

Yeah, see, I was, but I wasn't. I went to the University of Chicago, which is like, you know, one of the hardest, best undergrads in the country, but it's also full of nerds, okay? Like, I didn't really realize this coming out of high school because, like, even though I was smart, I was an idiot, right? Like, I perfect verbal sats and blah, blah, blah, blah and all that stuff, but I was an idiot. Like, I didn't know anything about life, and so I didn't think. So social life matter that much in college? I'm like, it doesn't matter where I go. It'll all be the same. I can make my social life, which is really one of the dumbest things you could possibly think, but at 18, that's what I thought.

Yeah.

And so I'm like, I'll go to a really good college so I can get a good job or whatever, you know, I still have the dumbass mindset that most kids that age do. And so I got into. I went to the best undergrad I got into, which is University of Chicago. And I got there and it was so crazy the first weekend. Like, I brought like a couple cases of not even Beer. I brought a couple cases of cider with me. Like, hard cider, like apple, you know, alcoholic, but. And I'll never forget this. And of course, I wasn't drinking age. I was 18, and I had it in my room. And I brought a mini fridge, so it's stock. And I'll never forget, like, the first big Friday night of the spirit year. Like, all these people were in my dorm room, including, like, upperclassmen. And I'm like, I feel like this shouldn't. I shouldn't be the cool guy. My first weekend of my freshman year. Like, the cool guy of the upper class. And like, yeah, like, even though I had an inflated opinion of myself, I was like, this can't be right. And it turned out it wasn't. It's a socially retarded school. And so I ended up graduating in three years because I was just like, get me out of here. And then went to law school. And so all my friends at law school were like the smartest people at their state schools. Like, you know, one of my buddies went to Kansas, one went to Pitt, one went to uva. And so they were like the smart, cool kids from their state schools. And I never, like, there were no dudes like that in my college.

Okay.

I was like, oh, these are my people. And so I got there and I kind of made up for in undergrad or in law school what I missed in undergrad. I went to Duke, right? And Duke is right by UNC, which is where, like, it's like 65% girls there and all the dudes are douchebags. So it was like the greatest thing on earth. I'm like the 24 year old cool guy who goes to law school, so all the girls love me there, even though they had no business loving me. I just loved it.

But it's all feeding your ego, I'm sure, even more and just like, putting. Making you more into that character that you were basically being, of course, right?

And like, it's so easy to be. To look cool when your competition are douchey North Carolina frat guys, right? Of course you're gonna look cool. Like, it's not like a competition. And so, yeah, so I just kind of. I law school so easy. Like, and I'm not saying that to brag. Like, anyone in law school will tell you it's really, really easy. And even though they say it's not, it is. And so I just kind of act like an idiot for three years and had a great time. And then that became the basis of My stories.

Yeah. And I think, I mean, just from you explaining that it's so. That's not an uncommon story. That when you think you're just sharing something with friends because you're being so authentic, you're just being real. You're not trying to impress anyone that that's what ends up landing with the masses because they feel like you're talking to them. So I'm assuming I didn't see these emails, but I'm assuming, like, anyone reading it, the cool kid, the not cool kid, whatever, they're looking at it like, oh, they feel like you're their budd. Of course it was going to take off.

Yeah. I mean, so you can read them now, the book or anyone in your listeners. The book that. My first book. I hope they serve beer in hell. Like, half of that book are emails to my friends.

That's so funny.

They're ripped right from the email. And it's funny. Like, you bring that up. I teach writing now. Like, we've helped 1500 people write books, including huge people like David Goggins and Tiffany Haddish and all these people. And we say exactly what you just said. Like, that's really our way that we teach them, is don't stop thinking you're writing to a crowd. There's no such thing as a crowd. You're writing to one person. Like, figure out who your avatar is and write to them. And don't even try and write to them. Talk to them.

Yeah.

If you're teaching something, teach it to them. If you're trying to make them laugh, then make that person laugh. And then you're exact. You nailed it. If you can do that, then the book takes care of itself.

Yeah. And I would say, I know you teach it with books and writing, but I would say that applies to social media. It applies to your interview. Like, anything that you're doing in the public, you have to talk to one person, but imagine.

Exactly, Right.

Yeah. That's incredible. So I love. I love this right now. You did. I want to. I don't want to skip over one thing that you said that was important. You said earlier. Maybe I heard it wrong. You said I was depressed, so I was drinking and doing all these things. What were you depressed about and did. Is that what was feeding into this? Like, then you had this ego hit or what was happening there? Or did I hear that wrong?

No, you heard it right. Absolutely right. So, okay, So I was 25. Okay, 25. And I just left law school. And I hated. I didn't Hate. I liked law school because of my friends, but law school sucked. And being a lawyer was the worst. And I ended up getting fired in literally three weeks. Cause I hated it so much, I kind of acted out and forced them to. And then I went to work for my dad, who owns restaurants in South Florida, and that kind of sucked. I didn't really like the restaurant business that much, and my dad was not a very good boss. And then South Florida is just the cultural armpit of America. Like, if you have a soul or are intelligent or both, there's nothing for you in South Florida. I didn't do drugs, right? I don't do coke. I don't do messages. So, like, I had nothing to relate to anyone in South Florida, you know, because that's basically everyone down there. And I don't speak Spanish. So if I was Cuban, maybe it would be amazing. But, like, there was just, like, the culture down there is just broken and dysfunctional and awful and. Or maybe I guess if you're really old, it's cool, but I was none of those things.

Yeah. I love even just talking to you right now. You're so real. And everybody that's from Florida that's mad right now. Then just be mad.

Okay? If you're. If you're mad at me, just Google Florida, man. Just Google Florida, man. Like, that's. That's the running joke about Florida.

Got it. My husband's from Florida. And I don't. He might. I don't know that he'd say quite the same, but he wouldn't be that far off. But one of my best friends lives in Miami, so she likes it there. But I don't know. I can't speak on the rest of Florida.

It's terrible. Okay, So I, like, I was. I didn't realize, too, how important intelligence in a woman was to me until I got to Florida. And I couldn't meet a girl who was both attractive and not dumb as a bag of rocks.

Okay.

Right. Like, there were plenty of really ugly.

That might have worked out for you when you were in your back, in your day. Like when you were partying and having fun. You maybe didn't care.

No, actually, no. Because, like, my game always worked best on smart girls. Like the cliche that dumb girls are easy. I don't know where that came from, because that's not the way it worked for me. At least. Maybe I'm just not attractive enough. Maybe dumb girls are easy for really hot guys, but I'm not that hot, right? And so I have to Be funny and smart. And funny and smart doesn't work well on dumb girls. It works great on smart girls. Right? And so, like, Florida was just. It was terrible for me in all ways. And so I just hated it. And that's. So basically, I would get drunk and hook up with dumb girls anyway or whatever.

You didn't want to deal. You didn't want to move. You didn't want to deal with this. You're just checking out, having fun, and doing that. So pretty much. So how did you even get the idea to, like, start emailing your friends this stuff? And who was the first person that, like, said, turn this into something, because this could go somewhere well.

So, like, if I was doing this now would be a group chat, right? It would be email. But you gotta remember, like, at the time, like, smartphones didn't even really exist. Yeah, no, they didn't, because that would have been 020102.

Okay.

And so, like. Yeah, so instead of smart smartphones or group chats, it was email. And it was like, my friends, because we had always worked in different places over the summer in law school, and the way we. Being a lawyer is boring. And so the way we entertained ourselves was emailing each other, like, funny stories. And, like, all my friends were really smart and good writers. That's why it didn't occur to me that my stuff would, like, excel. Because in my group of eight friends, I wasn't the best writer and I wasn't the funniest.

You just thought it was normal. You're just being funny and sharing. I love it.

Yeah.

So who was the first friend that said. Or do you remember that moment, like, when someone's like, hey, you should get this published, or you should put these together? How did that idea even come about?

Yeah, it was. It was one of my friends, one of the guys from law school. He was like, dude, this is the funniest stuff I've ever read. And, like, you're, like, not good at the things that you think you're good at, so maybe you should try this? And I was like. I mean, I knew my emails were funny, but it just didn't occur to me that it was, like, anything beyond just being funny. And my friends. And when he said that, I was like, all right. And so I sent it to some friends, like, in other social circles, and they loved it. And then it just kind of went from there.

So did you put them all together? How did you even. Like, most people wouldn't even know where to start with something like that. Like, did you find. Send it to a publisher? Did you find an agent? Like, how did you even know where to put it?

Yeah. So, okay, so remember, this is. Oh, two. When this. Right, right. So it's different world. So there's this big book called, like, Agents and Publishers or something like that. It basically has every address of every publishing company agent. And now it's probably pretty small, but at the time it was huge. And so I sent query letters with examples of my writing to like, a thousand.

Okay.

And I was rejected by literally 100%.

So. Okay, so everyone said no. So you put it all on the Internet just for free? Just put it totally out there?

Yeah, I put everything up for free. And then what happened? Two things happened at once. So at first, you know, nothing happened. But then, like, about two or three months after, like, all this stuff blew up. Right. So I got. I got put on this site at the time was huge called. I think it's still pretty big called CollegeHumor. And they put a bunch of my stories up and they blew up. And then, like, MTV came and filmed me for, like, this. This is back when, like, it was super creepy to meet people on the Internet.

Yeah.

And so, like, they. I had this dating application up, like a application women could fill out to go on a date with me, which. Which was a joke, clearly. It was, like, funny, right? But, like, they kind of took it seriously and, like, filmed me. Like, I was actually doing this, and I was like, okay, cool, if that gets me attention. And so they came and filmed it, and then the site blew up. And it's like every day the servers were going down and it was getting all this attention and it was nuts. And then from there, like, all the publishers who rejected me came back and were like, hey, we want to publish your stuff now. You know, and it kind of. It all went from there.

So I have some questions. So why. So when, if you're rejected by a hundred publishers, like, most people would say, okay, no one likes my stuff. I'm done. It sucks, I'm not going to do it. What made you decide? Like, I'm going to go figure out this HTML stuff and put it up there anyway.

So it's a good question. So it was actually more than 100. It was 100% of publishers. It was probably 500 or 1,000. So it was even worse. I know, it's even worse, right? Yeah. So. So here's what happened, though. At the same time that they were rejecting me, my stuff was getting forwarded all around the country. Right. So Like, I would get. My friends from high school would email me my. They would forward my emails back to me, not knowing that I had written it and be like, this is so funny. Right?

That's funny.

So. Right. I was like, okay. It taught me that publishing. It's funny. Like, the whole job of publishers is to find talent and publish them. And I'm like, they're bad at their only job. Like, literally, this is their only job. And I knew they were wrong because I knew when other people are spreading the word about your stuff, it was good, period.

For sure.

So that's how I knew for sure.

So who finally turned around and said, okay, we're going to publish this? And did you expect it to take off the way that it did?

Yeah. So, I mean, after the MTV thing and after the. I also got sued by this girl who, you know, and it became a big First Amendment thing. And so the New York Times wrote about it. And, like, I was pretty good at generating a lot of, like, what people call viral, you know, attention now. Yeah. And so I had. Pretty much all the publishers came back to me and wanted to do the book. And I, like, I knew, like, I knew it was going to be a hit because. And it wasn't even an arrogant thing. It's just like. It's sort of like, imagine if you sell, I don't know, soap, and you take it to a flea market and you sell out every day in an hour, right? Then you know your soaps gonna blow up if you can get distribution, Right? Because you've already seen the evidence. It's the same thing. It was the exact same thing. Like, I saw the evidence and it wasn't like, my friends were telling me it was great. I mean, I was. At that point, I was getting hundreds of emails a day from people, like, and not all of them were positive. Like, don't get me wrong, like, at least 20% were negative. But that's like the 80% positive. 20% negative is like the perfect ratio because it means it's engaging.

Plus, it seems like. I think if people are like, one of that the type of person that's just people pleasing everybody, like, that's. They. They're not the ones that blow up. Like, you can't. You have to have some type of controversy or have these differences of opinions and all that. So I think it's. It just this caught this perfect storm for it to blow up with the topic and everything.

Yep. It's exactly what it was.

So, okay, so you do this and then where is it getting to it, all the negative controversy. And how are you handling that? Because a lot. That's the other thing that would stop people, like, okay, I've got this stuff I'm putting out here. It's my life. But now I'm getting like, this woman's trying to sue me, and there's controversy and people don't like me. Like, did that ever get in your head at all? And how did you keep going through that? Did you not care?

It's. It's hard. Okay. So the. I can tell you what I did at the time, which now that I'm older and wiser, more mature, I understand, wasn't, you know, was fairly dysfunctional. But it's what I did at the time. I was basically just like, I don't give a fuck.

Right?

Like, I was total. Like, I don't care what anyone else thinks. It doesn't matter. They don't matter. Blah, blah, blah. Like, now, I would approach it differently, you know, but like. And not necessarily caring what everyone think, I would just approach it. Like, I had a very defensive stance then, right. Whereas now I would just be very detached from, like, you know, all those opinions. Whereas then it was more like I was like, you know, like, you know, the kid who's like, they can't do something, so they say they don't want to do it. It's sort of the same thing. Right. But the basic idea was I'm. I'm not going to engage. I had enough positive attention and enough positive. And I mean, the majority of people who, you know, were fans, so I was like, okay, I know this has something. So I'm just going to go with that. I'm not going to worry about people who don't like it. And in fact, I liked that because most of the people who hated it were, like, people I didn't care about, you know? And so I was like, all right, this is great. Having haters means I'm making an impact.

Yeah.

And so, like, I kind of approached it that way.

So now, at this point, were you making money and. Because I know you're getting a lot of exposure and stuff, but were you. Did you get an advance from your publisher? Did you. Was MTV paying? Like, did you get. Were you making money and were you seeing this is going to be your career now?

Yeah, I mean, pretty much.

Okay, okay. So then. So then you sort of start evolving. I mean, you make two more books, and then you have all three books as bestsellers at the same time.

Yeah. So when my third one came out, all three were on the list. So my first one came out in 2006. My third one came out in 2012, and they were all on the list at the same time.

It's like, unheard of, by the way, for those.

Right? It's like, it's like me, Malcolm Gladwell, like, Michael Lewis and Brene Brown are the only people that ever do that.

So did you know how big that was when that was happening? Because it's like, not even like you were setting out to make that happen.

Yeah, I mean, I knew, like, I. It's. It's one of those things where you think it's a big deal from the outside, but after you've done all the work to get there, it's like, not a big deal anymore. You know, it's like, it's cool, but I'm not. Like, I don't sit around, like, I don't go to my wife and be like, hey, you know, I had three books on the New York Times list at once.

Yeah, I would say that to my husband every single day if I had that. Like, hey, you know, I had three. That's funny. But, you know, just as someone that's had two bestselling books myself that have neither one have ever hit New York Times, like, for me, that was frustrating. So, like, to me, it's like, wow, how did you do that? That's pretty cool. So I think it's a pretty cool thing.

It's cool. It is like. And if you, you know, if or when it happens to you, you'll like it a lot. But you'll. You'll see what I mean, man. Like, after. After a month or six months or whatever, it's like the novelty of it wears off and it's just like. It's like, it doesn't. There's a great saying in Buddhism. Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. You know, you realize that it, like, it doesn't. It doesn't actually matter that much. It's just a cool thing that you've worked hard for and got.

Yeah, it's another accolade. I get it. I get it. Okay, so that. So then things totally pivot and you stop doing that and you create your own company. Can you walk us through that? Like, what made you decide to not continue writing in that method? And what changed?

Well, I mean, all my stories were about drinking and hooking up and being an idiot. Like, 29 year old. I just wasn't that person anymore, you know, Like, I just didn't I. Look, I could have traveled the world and kept. I could have milked that for a long time.

Yeah.

But, like, I just didn't. It wasn't interesting to me anymore, you know?

Like, I just feeling, like, disconnected. Like, I have to be this character or. What was the conversation you were having?

Yeah, it was a little bit that. It was just like. It was. It was. I just didn't want to do it anymore. And then I didn't want to get to that point where I felt like I was disconnected and pretending to be someone I wasn't, you know?

Yeah.

Like, I wanted to, like, do other things and be other things. And, like, my fans just wanted more drunken tales of revelry. I'm like, I just. And so. And nothing against that. That's cool. I'm like, you just have to get that from somebody else now. And so I retired at the end of the last book and said, I'm never writing anything like this again. I'm moving on.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. But it's. You know, you really think back, like, you built it on such authenticity, like, that's who you were. So if it's not who you are, we're anymore. It wasn't going to make sense. That makes sense. So how did you get the idea to start teaching others, like, how to write and get public instead of saying, like, hey, I'm going to show you how to get a publisher or get an agent? Like, what made you go this other direction of start it yourself where you're teaching them?

Well, I mean, I wish I could tell you the story about how I'm, like, a business genius and I planned it all out, but that's not reality at all. What actually happened was actually, I'm an idiot. I had people. No, seriously. Basically, from the moment I published a book, I had people asking me, how could they write their book?

Okay.

And I would always, like, give them stupid answers. Like the snobby writer answer, which is like, you know, I think work hard, right? You have to work hard. You have to find the agent. You have to. Blood, sweat and tears, whatever. All the nonsense shit. And then eventually, like, this woman called me out. She's like, look, that's a bullshit answer. Like, it was an entrepreneur dinner. She's like, I'm an entrepreneur. You say you're an entrepreneur. If you're actually an entrepreneur, you'd help me figure out how to get this book out of my head without having to do all that stuff.

Wow.

I know. And I was like, fuck, she's totally right.

Yeah.

And so I became obsessed with that. How do I help? And how do you take a normal person who has a book in them, but they don't know how to write and they don't have the time to learn how to be a writer? How do you get it out of their head? Right. In a way that's totally authentic? It's their book, not just ghostwriting. It's got to be their book. And so I kind of worked through the process. I just did it as a project with her, and it worked really well. We did this amazing book. And I'm such an idiot. I was like, oh, that's a cool project. And that's it. And then she's like, no, I'm going to refer people to you. I'm like, why? She's like, because they all want the same thing. Okay. She's like, in ypo, New York or whatever. Whatever. And then she just started pushing people to me. And so, like, I literally had to hire, like, a friend of mine who, like, it helped me on other things. I'm like, can you do this work for me? He's like, what do you mean? And I showed him what to do, and he's a writer, and so he started doing it. And then, like, before I knew it, we'd done, like, a quarter million dollars in sales. And it's like. He's like, we need to hire more people. I'm like, do you think this is a business? And he's like, you're an idiot. Yeah. He's like, you don't even have a website and you've sold a quarter quarter million dollars worth of this stuff. Yes. This is a business.

So were you, like, consulting with him, like, kind of teaching her, like, how to do it, or were you doing it for her? Like, what was that? What was that looking like?

Right. So. So there are plenty of people who teach people how to write books, right? Pretty much all of them are terrible at it.

Okay.

Which I can say with authority now because after five years in this space, I like, we're very good at teaching people this stuff. And I see what other people do. They're not good. But at the time, I was not teaching what I was doing. We were. We were. We were. We basically figured out a new way to ghostwrite a book. Right?

Okay.

So, like, we would. We. I figured out a very structured way to position an outline, a book, and then we figured out a way to interview somebody to get the book out of them, but it's entirely their words and their ideas and their Content, we just turn it into a book. But we're not ghost writing it. Like, I'm not doing research and, and thinking up my own ideas.

You basically have somebody interviewing and turning it into flow, like into writing it, but they're not, they're not taking the topic and going and doing the research like a traditional ghostwriter. I get what you're saying.

Yeah, that's basically it. Right. And so we started, we started there and then that was all we did for the first two, two and a half years. And then as we got bigger, a bunch of people were like, hey, I want to write it myself, but I want you guys to like coach me through and then publish it when it's done. And so now we have that option where like we have a two day workshop in Austin that I still lead personally and I take you through the whole process. You do it in the room right there with us. We give you feedback and then you go home and write it yourself. You know, you do weekly calls and we, you know, we accountability and all that stuff. And then when you're done, we do a full edit and publishing. We have that, we have those, those are our two main products. And then also some people who just write the book entirely themselves and need us to publish it, we can do that.

But. So you are. But are you more like a traditional publisher now though too, because your books go into stores now or does that only happen for certain people?

It only happens for certain people. I mean, we've done 1500 books. They're not all in stores. We probably have 20 in stores. Right.

So the advantage that I always saw with a. This is why I'm asking too. It's new to me. Like, so I've done books, I've done them on my own where it's just like an ebook or Amazon or I've done them through publisher. And the advantage that I've always seen with a publisher is one that they. There's like a. They pay you up front. So you get, you know, you get an advance on that and they help you. Some, some very small amount, but some on the marketing side are getting the store placement.

Yeah. So very small amount of marketing, usually basic. Basically none. They can help you with store placement. It's not guaranteed, but it's. Your chances are much, much better.

Yeah.

Here's the thing. In 2019, something like 20% of book sales are in stores. Like, they don't. It doesn't matter. It's not a channel that matters very much unless you're writing. If you're writing a huge, like if you're a big novelist. Right. If you're, if you're selling to the type of people who go into bookstores, which is like, you know, not that many times. I mean I'm, I have 3,000 books in my house. I run a publishing company. I can't remember the last time I went to a bookstore.

Yeah, we go to Amazon or of course.

And so like for most people, being in a bookstore doesn't matter. And then the advance can be nice. But like the reality is most people aren't getting a traditional deal to begin with. But even those who are like most of them are better off owning the rights and royalty. Like that's the reason that most of our authors work with us is because they pay us a service fee. Like they pay us and then we do an amazing job on the book. But then they own the book. Right. So like David Goggins, you know, his book Can't Hurt Me was one of the best selling books last year in the entire world.

Yes.

And he sold like over a million copies. He worked with us start to finish and I mean his book sold over a million copies. So he made five or six million dollars instead of. He would have made maybe a million bucks if he'd gone with traditional.

Yeah. Because you would get such a small percent after the advance.

Exactly, exactly. Yep.

Got it. So people pay you to get the help on it, but you have the system down and then they're going to profit on the end, on the back end, because they're going to make a lot more.

Yep.

I love it. I love it. And I love how you're. This all came about like literally from your own accidental experience writing books. And then you, you're so, you, you're so good at that, like living in it. Has this. So this is now what you do. This is your main thing. This is what you. And it's so funny because I'm assuming when you went to law school you never thought in a million years you'd be end up running a publishing company.

No. Never.

Yeah. That's crazy. So when you. So has your, has that law background come in handy though? I'm going to imagine it has now a little bit.

Not really, No. I mean, a little bit, I guess here and there, but like not worth spending three years. I mean like, I liked it because I had a lot of fun with my friends, but otherwise, like intellectually it was a huge waste of time.

Yeah. Any regrets to those initial books that you wrote or those topics? How do you feel about those now?

Great. I mean, I live in. I live in a 7,000 square foot house on an acre in Austin with a pool and a wine cellar, and I've got an amazing wife and kids and all this stuff. And I mean, like, it's who I was at the time. I definitely did things that I regret. Like stupid things I shouldn't have done. No doubt. But I definitely.

Everybody has.

I definitely don't regret being honest about it in a book.

Yeah.

I may regret some of the things I did, but not the books.

Yeah. That's really cool. I love that story. I love that story. What would you tell somebody that's listening right now that is maybe in that depressed state that you were in, or they're in their own personal rock bottom or whatever it is, and they're trying to get out of that and level up and create everything or nothing. What advice would you give them?

It's hard to know without knowing the person. Right. Because it really is different for each person. But the one thing I think that is common for almost everyone who's in a depressed state is that they have, in some form or another, they have a victim mindset. And what I would tell them. And this is painful to hear. And I say this because I heard this when I was at that state and people told it to me and I didn't want to hear it. I pushed it away. Right?

Yeah.

So if you're in this state and you don't want to hear this, I get it, I'm sympathetic. But it's the thing you need to actually embrace that if you wake up tomorrow and assume that everything in your life is your fault and your responsibility, then everything changes immediately. You'll feel. At the very beginning, you'll feel. First off, you'll feel defensive. No, it's not true. I didn't. Everything's not my fault. I wasn't born short or whatever. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. So you can feel all that, let all that nonsense go, then just assume everything's your fault and your responsibility and then just move forward like that. You're going to realize almost immediately that you actually embrace that, that you can create profound change in your life.

It's so good. I love that.

You know what I'm saying?

Yeah. My dad, when I was little, I'll never forget the one thing he said to me that, like, I've always stuck with me is he told me when I was little, it's no one else's fault. And that always stuck with me. And it's so powerful. And I totally agree with what you're saying and we've all been in that victim mindset at times, but there's no change or hope when you're there.

Yep.

Yeah. I love that. Tucker, this was so good. Can anyone work with Scribe?

I mean, yeah, of course. Like, so here's like our services started ten grand. So we're not cheap to work with. Like, we're kind of the premium provider in the space. But. But we. All of our information, like, exactly. All of our templates, how we do our. Everything we do, we actually give all of that away for free. Like, we could sell that for thousands of dollars for classes, but we don't. So any of your readers who can't afford us, go to scribebookschool.com and you'll see, like videos and everything that we do. You can learn step by step exactly how to write a book. It's the same process we use with our clients. You just have to do it yourself. So.

Got it. And I think it's how. I mean, I don't. I've not used your service, but I can speak on behalf of like, it's very helpful to work with somebody because then they help pull it out of you and help keep you accountable.

Yep.

Yeah. This is awesome. Thank you so much, so much for doing this today. I think it was super helpful for people too.

Of course. My pleasure.

Thanks for leveling up with us today. Please share this out episode if you found it helpful so others can join in. And don't forget to hit that subscribe so you don't miss out on future shows. And if you would leave me a five star review. I appreciate those so much. I read all of them and it's how I know that I'm giving you information that you find valuable. And come interact with me over on Instagram at Natalie Jill Fit. I read all the direct messages and comments over there. Make it a great day.

Crack.

Creating everything from nothing.