173: Building Healthy & Thriving Relationships with Scott Milnes

Hi, I'm Natalie Jill, fat loss expert turned high performance coach. When odds are stacked against us, how do we shift and create everything from nothing? How do we level up when we aren't feeling it yet? Or we've had a big setback. On this podcast, I'll be talking to some of the most inspiring and courageous men and women on this planet who at their worst, learned how to achieve success greater than they ever dreamed possible. Leveling up and creating everything from nothing. Scott Mellonis is a communication expert and founder of the Great Relationship Academy. And he's on a mission to help people achieve the healthy and thriving relationships they've always wanted. But surprise, surprise, because we're on Leveling up today, it was not always that way. After a confusing divorce at age 29 and then a crushing breakup eight years later, never wanting to be in that pain again, can you guys relate? I know many of you listening can relate to this relationship pain. Scott embarked on a vision quest to crack the code. Now today, he teaches with heart, humor and an in the trench experience. His leading a national conversation about healing from heartache, dating with clarity and intention, and what real love and connection is. Join in today for a candid discussion with Scott and learn exactly how he leveled up and created everything from nothing in relationships. Today. I've got Scott Milnes here, and I'm really excited to dive into this topic today because we're talking about something that we have not talked about before on this podcast. And this is how to find and keep lasting love. This is a big one because that's what Scott helps people do. And thank you so much for being here today, Scott. I have so many questions for you.

Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm grateful and excited.

So my first question for you, Scott, I'm assuming because you help people find and create lasting love, maybe that was something you struggled with at some point. So can you take us back?

Strangely, I did kind of struggle with this. Yeah, big time. Gosh, where to start? You know, I was. I was married and divorced by age 29. And then, you know, back then, at least in my family, we never really had an open dialogue or a creative conversation about, you know, wow, Scott, you're going through a divorce, so, you know, how do you plan on healing from that? Or, you know, what's your path of recovering and getting stability? There was none of that. And it's nobody's fault. You know, we just. Divorce was never really part of my family's story, so we just. We just didn't talk about it.

I want to interrupt you for one minute because I'm just curious before we even get into like that part, because I think that's such a critical piece, I want to know for people listening that are maybe feeling like they're in a bad marriage right now or they're in that spot, maybe you were before you were getting that divorce. What was going through your mind that you even got to the decision to get a divorce? And I also have been divorced, I'm remarried now. But I'm curious that how you even got to that decision.

Okay, well, of course divorce is, it's all case by case for me. I was completely blindsided by it. I, there were no warning signals or any signs whatsoever as far as I was concerned. I thought we were coactively building something that had duration and longitudity. And so if you want to hear the quick story around that, I'm happy to share it. But me personally, I was completely blindsided by it.

Okay, interesting. Okay, so that's good to know because I know people listening. It could be a decision that's mutual, it could be an either or. But for you, your case, you were happy, you were thinking things are good and it took you off guard.

Oh, completely. Yeah.

Wow. Okay, got it. And I would imagine that's a different path than people, that it's their decision. And I know now you working with so many people on relationships, it's such a different. Do you believe it's a different healing path if it's the person, if it's a mutual thing or one person feels that they've been the victim of or if they're the one making the decision.

Yeah, this, you know, there's going to be divergent paths along the lines whether somebody is initiating or if somebody's on the receiving end of the divorce or whether it's kind of this, this mutual conclusion that they both come to and that kind of resembles like, you know, the whole, the whole concept of conscious uncoupling. And so yeah, the, the, the healing and recovery paths will, will be different for sure.

So you're blindsided, you find out you're getting a divorce. And what was the next step? Did you, do you try to save it first or were you.

I did. So yeah, I mean it was, it was, it was surreal. It was like an out of body experience. You know, she came home from work and we, I could just tell something was off. And so I'm like, hey, you know, you know, how are you? You know, is everything okay? And she said, yeah, everything's Fine. But it was one of those conversations where the words and the tone didn't match. And, you know, I get enough emotional intelligence to know, like, okay, there's something under the surface. And so we did. We just embarked on this conversation. And. And I'd say maybe, I don't know, a couple hours into it, I just asked her. I'm like, hey, you know, like, what do you. What are you telling me? Do you. Do you want a divorce? And it was just dead silence. And, I mean, it turned out that that was indeed what she wanted. She just didn't really know how to say it. And from there, everything just happened super fast. She moved out, like, maybe three days later. And then we filed for divorce five or six days after that. And what made things, well, more challenging for me was this was back in Indiana. But back in Indiana, back then, you could go from filing a divorce to being fully divorced within about 60 days or so.

Wow, that's quick.

And to answer your question, yeah, absolutely. I was like, hey, you know, do we, you know, do we need to work with a counselor or a therapist? Or do we need to go back to the pastor who married us because, you know, he had tried to do some premarital work with us. And I was like, hey, do we need to go on vacation just to block out the busyness of life and reconnect? And due to no fault of her own, because I don't have any blame around any of this, there's no charge remaining, but she just wasn't really open to any of those ideas. She was quite set and certain on her path. And so I just. I chose to, you know, after several pleas and attempts, I just chose to step aside and, yeah, let her go.

Her own way because she had decided. So you.

She. She really had. She had quite decided.

So that makes sense. So then you're in this spot of, like, okay, this just happened to me, so I'm result. As a result, I've got to follow. Follow suit. And at that time, you were not feeling support or an understanding of it or what brought you into that place of, wow, there's something missing here.

Now, you mean, like, there's something missing within the marriage or there's something missing.

In terms of my support system, the recovery of it?

Well, I honestly, Natalie, I didn't realize the lack of structure until years later. So I embarked on the only type of divorce recovery I'd ever heard of, and that was, you know, spend a bunch of money, chase a bunch of women, and, you know, drink a bunch of Alcohol. And I was just in full flight from anything that looked like reality. Just trying to feel better as fast as possible. And those were. That was my medicine cabinet.

Yeah. You know, it's interesting. That's like a form of numbing out. Why do you think so many people gravitate towards that when newly single?

Because it's fast and easy. I mean, you know, for one, you know, rebound relationships are. It's absolutely the drug of choice in our culture, you know, when somebody goes through a bad breakup or a painful divorce because, you know, two things, nothing will take your mind off of prior heartache faster than a new relationship. And nothing is like, I mean, it's just a beautiful way to avoid the work. Yeah. You know, why work on yourself if you've got this new love interest that's consuming all of your attention? So. And that's what I share, you know, a lot is like, if you're going through a divorce or a bad breakup, for God's sakes, please do not short circuit the amazing personal development journey that lies in front of you. I mean, don't short circuit that with a new relationship.

But I would imagine in that process, that's hard to pill, to swallow. That's all. Because you just want to feel better. You just want to feel better, Right. Then how did you. What took you on that path to figure out that that's not the answer?

Okay, great question. So, yeah, I got divorced back in the late 90s, and for the. For the next eight years of my life, I was. Oh, my gosh, Natalie. I mean, this could be multi. Multiple episodes with all the wreckage that I. That I basically subjected myself to, but you know, just copious amounts of spending, massive debt, you know, sex, drugs, and rock and roll, in and out of all sorts of dysfunctional relationships and situationships. But then about eight years after my divorce, I went through just an absolute crushing breakup that was, I mean, exponentially more painful than that divorce. And that's really where I got my awakening.

What happened there?

So. Oh, gosh, where to start on this one? So there had been this one woman in particular that I had met in my early 20s. I'd met her before I'd even met my first wife. And it was one of those fire and gasoline, on and off again, hot and cold relationships. And she and I had this relational pattern where we would get together, things would be incredible, then we would. Things would shatter, we would break up, we would date other people, and then we would reconnect. And we did this ebb and flow for years. And, well, back in, gosh, 2005, we decided to try it one more time, as many people do. And of course, things were incredible. In the beginning, it was euphoric, but it didn't take too long to figure out that we were. We were still the same people, although we had gotten older, but yet we were still operating with that same limited relational skill set. And so, oh, gosh, maybe about eight months into that relationship, things had gotten so bad for me personally that I did one of the hardest things I'd ever done in my life, and that was to break up with her for what I knew would be the last and final time.

And what you said, it was one of the hardest things for you. Why do you think that was one of the hardest things for you when you had this knowing that that's not the right thing for you?

I think I. Because she and I met when we were in our early 20s and we had been on again, off again for, you know, roughly 15 years. And I think I just had so much hope stacked into this relationship that, you know, oh, my gosh, like, what a beautiful opportunity. We've. We've met later in life. We can do it this time. Like, this time it's gonna. It's going to work. And it just didn't, and it just couldn't. And so I think for me, I was surrendering, like, my ego over to my spirit because the spirit within me knew with total clarity that I could never smash this square peg into a round hole. And again, I wish her all the luck and love in the world, but we just. We just were not a good fit.

So this is interesting, Scott, because I think so many people. I know there's so many people listening that can relate to that. Like, they have a knowing that the relationship they're chasing or that they're in is not the right one.

Yeah.

But they are scared to make that change. Why? What do you think that is? Because it's very common. It's very common. And how do people figure out, is this an actual knowing? Is this my truth that I need to be out of this, or do I need to work on this? Like, how do you figure that out? Because there's so much pull either way that, like, you should work on things and save it at all cost or any. Any guidance on that?

Yeah, I think a couple things are coming to mind. First of all, like, I frequently talk about what I call the three A's.

Okay.

And it's. It's abuse, adultery, and addiction.

Okay.

If either, or heaven forbid, if more than one of those are in place simultaneously, you've got some real problems. I mean, those are huge red flags that you really need to bring in some professional help and get some momentum around. I guess what I'm trying to say is those are not to be taken lightly.

Okay.

Now there's also, like, the issues of, like, temperament and personality and communication and just, you know, how are we. Because, you know, marriage is a lot like a business, and a husband and a wife are kind of like business partners because we're trying to build something beautiful together. And so there's those little minor things that we need to keep ironing out. And so I would say to circle back around and try to answer your question, I think we should. We owe it to ourselves and we owe it to our partners to bring in new tools and bring in new resources and try to work on the relationship. But at some point, you've just got to get gut level honest about the core fundamentals and the basic ingredients that are required to build a healthy relationship. And that's what I had to come face to face with.

I want to ask you about those core fundamentals before I do. As somebody who's been through a divorce before, and I'm married to someone I would consider my soulmate now, but I will share 100%. I've been with my husband for 10 years. We've been married for four. The same things that came up with my first marriage that were now divorced come up in my new marriage. So to me, I question a lot. I don't question how things turned out. I'm glad that I parted that first marriage and with my husband now. But a lot of things come up with, is it really the person, is it the circumstances, is it ourselves that we need to work on? Because literally the same problems that I faced in my first marriage, I see in my second. And I think that's pretty common. I mean, you would know more than me, but I see people repeating patterns.

Yeah, it is common. It is. So, you know, something I share with, like my clients coming through, you know, my breakup and divorce recovery program that also ascend into my dating after divorce program is really going super deep. And, you know, looking at your own temperament, how you, how you listen. For example, like, we've all heard the phrase he said, she said. Yeah, but kind of in my vernacular, it's. It's always, you know, she said he heard, or that's good, said she heard. Because, you know, we've all got that software program that runs through our minds that Filters and categorizes and compartmentalizes language and then provides meaning towards it. Yeah, I think it's just so important to know who we are, like, at a. Almost like a nucleus level of how we function in relationships, what our triggers are, what our boundaries are. And then also. Let me share this. I think when we talk about communication, it's like, how are we taking our own temperature and monitoring our own pulse when we're in conversation? So that if we spot, like, a yellow flag, we know how to build conversation around it so that we can establish a new agreement so that it never becomes an orange flag, let alone a red flag.

Yeah, that's good.

So these are all just, you know, communication and conversational techniques.

Yeah, I can see that. I can say again, my first marriage, I think about, we'd have a fight, and it was automatically, he's wrong, I'm right, and he would say, I'm wrong. You know, there was never a communication around it or, like, what did we each hear?

Exactly. And one thing I just. Something sparked my memory about your question was like, you know, repeating patterns. You know, one thing I talk a lot about is our type. And I know for me, like, yeah, because when I. When I was given the gift of my spiritual journey, I was 37 years old at the time. And a big part of the work I did was just a massive relationship inventory on all of the key romantic relationships that I'd had over the course of my life this far. And one thing I had to get really honest with was the type, like, physically and also spiritually and emotionally, the type of woman that I historically pursued and what kind of results I was getting. And so I just had to get really honest, like, well, dude, like, if this is your type, and, like, when you do this type of relational inventory that I'm describing, you really do. You get this constellation of data up on the whiteboard, and there it is in black and white. It's like, well, dude, this is the type of woman that you historically pursue. And these are the results. A 100% failure rate. Where'd you get that type? Why do you think you're attached to that type? And so we'll probably touch on it later, but when I reentered the dating pool three years after my spiritual awakening, you know, through my own work and through God's grace, I had completely debugged and rewritten the software program that I used to choose a woman.

I love that. I love that you just said software program, because I feel like so many times we're Trying to take in more information, add more applications, you know, more without upgrading the software. Like, if your computer stops working, you know, we upgrade the software. So. I love that you just said that. Things in different. I still want to ask you about core fundamentals before I do that. You mentioned spiritual awakening. What was that? What was your process for that? Spiritual awakening? Was this religion? Was this, like, working with a shaman? Like, what personal development? What path did you take?

Yeah, yeah.

This is.

This is fun for me to share. Thank you. So, yeah, about. About five weeks after that breakup, I mean, I was a wreck, and. I mean, I was just, like, I missed her. I was trying to find all these ways to get back together with her, even though I was the one that broke up with her. Yeah, I mean, I was just a wreck.

And anyway, that's common with people. They decide they want to break up, and then they feel they made a mistake. They try to control it back.

Oh, yeah. I was all over the place like a ship without a rudder. And so, like I said, about five weeks after the breakup, I called up one of my. He was more of an acquaintance, not really a friend. I was just. I was like. I needed somebody to go out with. So I'm like, hey, dude, let's. Let's go down to the Gas Lamp and let's, you know, let's go run it tonight. He's like, all right, man, let's do it. So we're down in the Gas Lamp, and, you know, we're having a drink here. You know, pay the tab, go to the next place. Pay the tab, go to the next place. We're doing this big bar crawl, and, you know, all the while, you know, like, hey, man, you know, check out those ladies. And, hey, you know, oh, my gosh, she's gorgeous and blah, blah, blah, and we're chatting with these ladies and this and that. And I remember we were at this one club, and I don't know, it was just a little after midnight, and I was out on the dance floor, and I'm dancing with this girl, and I have no idea anything about her. All I know is she's cute. And we're out there dancing, and the music is just pounding. I can't even hear myself think, let alone try to talk to her. And so the song's over. I excuse myself, I walk away, and I go back to the bar where I've got, like, a half a drink left. And I just sat there, and I remember, like, this was, like, five minutes. I remember, like, this was five minutes ago. But it was September 17th at 12:32 in the morning, and I just hit bottom, and I was just like, oh, my God. It's just. I'm just getting really emotional right now. Just. It's been a while since I've talked about it, but I just. I hit bottom and I'm like, God, dude, this. This is your life. Like, you know, you're 37, you're divorced, you've got a string of failed relationships strung behind you, and here you are, it's after midnight, and you're. You're dancing with strangers, looking for love. Like, has this ever worked for you? And in that moment, I literally did. I felt the presence and I heard the voice of a loving God that said, scott, I've got a will and a plan and a purpose for your life. It doesn't involve any of this. I need you to put that drink down and walk out of this bar immediately.

Gosh, you know what, Scott? I just got chills because I can't tell you how many people I've interviewed on this podcast that have shared a very similar story about when they were in their rock bottom perceived moment, they surrendered and asked for help. And whether it was a God or the universe or whatever, they interpret, they heard that. And it's so funny. I literally have the word surrender tattooed on my arm. I've had that same experience. So. And it's to remind me to ask for help, because when we don't ask for it, I personally believe in something greater than us.

Absolutely.

So. And I. And there's. I've literally got 180 interviews. I don't think I've done one interview that somebody didn't bring this up. It's amazing.

Awesome. That's awesome.

Whether it was on the interview or offline, so there is something to asking for help outside of yourself. I believe that.

Yeah, it's. And just to go back to what you shared, I mean, that word surrender, just, like, let go.

Yeah. Of having to control it all. Of having to control it all.

Yeah, well, because, I mean, clearly the data proved that I had no answers. Like, my best thinking had got me to that situation, so I was very, extremely willing to. To try other methods. Absolutely.

So good. And I. And I would challenge, you know, listeners, if you're not religious, you don't have to necessarily be religious, but try just asking that question even to your subconscious, you know, to ask, like, what. What do I need help? What do I do?

Exactly. It's. I appreciate that as well. Like, if someone's, like, spiritual, if they believe in a higher power, whatever they choose to call that higher power. I try not to get too caught up in labels. I think we, as humans, we have to find our own path and choose our own labels and go from there. But the idea is just we're human. It's impossible. We can't have all the answers. We need to tap into something bigger than us and get those downloads.

Totally true. So you had this awakening, you had this, you heard this voice, whatever that was to you, that there's something greater for you. You know, I recently interviewed Gabby Bernstein on here. She said the exact same thing. She was in. She had a drug problem and she, at the time, and she. Gabby Bernstein's a huge presence online now, lots of books. But she said the same thing. She literally surrendered, asked for help, and she got that same download. Get sober, leave, and there's something bigger for you. I love that you just said that. So you have that awakening and what was next? What was the next step?

Yeah. So the next morning, I mean, the equipping process began immediately for me. The next morning I reached out to a good friend of mine, like a brother, and I described to him what had happened. And he had been following me. Like we've been in constant communication since the breakup and matter of fact, he really helped me. Okay, that's a whole other story. But he was the reason I was strong enough in the moment to perform that breakup.

Okay.

Because the tractor beam of that relationship, the level of co dependence and addiction, you know, on a personal level, it was so huge that, I mean, had it not been for him, I wouldn't have been strong enough to even break up with her, let alone get this deep in.

Okay.

Anyway, the next day I reached out to him. I said, dude, you know, here's what happened. I'm almost, I feel like it's an out of body experience. You know, what should I do next? He's like, man, he's like, you should go to a meeting. And I knew exactly what he was talking about because he had been sober for almost seven years at that point. And again, I was so willing. I'm like, done. I will go to a meeting.

As in an AA meeting?

Absolutely.

Okay.

And so I think for me, I never believed that I was an alcoholic, but I knew that alcohol was definitely a gateway for me into dysfunctional relationships.

Interesting.

I would never, I would never like drink for the sake of drinking. I would always drink in these social environments to get comfortable and be social. But then that always led to very poor choices and bad Decisions, Yeah, that led me into the wrong relationships.

Totally.

So I went to my first meeting like four days later. I did what's called 90 and 90, which is 90 meetings in 90 days. I found a sponsor and I started doing the work. And what I would share to listeners is if you think you've got a roadblock, whether that's alcohol, spending, debt, food, whatever you think that roadblock is, there's help out there for you. And I would just encourage people to disengage from any preconceived notions and just show up and just see like, okay, well now, now all of a sudden I'm in an environment of people that are moving forward because they're not being held back by their roadblock.

I love that. I have a friend that is. Has really felt saved by aa and one thing he shared to me, he said a lot of people get stuck on why they drink or why they do that, do marijuana or why they do the. Whatever the outlet is. And he said, if you ever want to know why you do it, just stop doing it. And whatever comes up for you that you feel that's why you do it. And then do the work.

Do the work. Amen. And so, yeah, so, yeah, you know, just buried myself in aa. I got connected to a good Bible based church. As far as my own personal development, I probably like a lot of people, I just turned into a voracious reader. Just every book I could find, just chewing through them like a shark. Every workshop, seminar and sermon that I could find on what is healthy love, what is it not, how do I tell the difference? And then also went back to school, started working towards my degree on psychology, just taking every class that I could find that I thought might help me and then might eventually help me help others.

So what's interesting to me is I'm assuming it's not that you lost the temptation for alcohol or for women or for whatever the thing is, but you had a bigger vision now that you had made this decision and commitment to yourself. You decided is what I'm hearing.

Yeah, I think it was just, it was a deep intuition that I basically just said to myself, like, if I'm ever going to get over this breakup once and for all and then truly learn how to choose a proper partner and then function at a high level inside that relationship, I've got to change a lot of things. Like, it all starts with me. I'm the common denominator in all of my relationships.

So good, Scott. So good, so good. This is great. So when did it come to you now, so you're working on yourself. When did it now come to you that, hey, this is my calling to help others find love and heal themselves. They're like, did you have to find that first or did you decide that part first? Did you have the vision first or did you the relationship first?

I think that's a great question. Thank you. For me, it was just. I wanted to become healthy and whole myself. And then it just evolved. What was really cool at the church I belonged to at the time, they had this. This ministry. It was called the Care and concern ministry. And part of that was I was trained in biblical counseling. And then they started giving me. Giving me clients, and it was all pro bono. There was, you know, it was all volunteer work. But what was crazy was they kept giving me, quote unquote, clients who. Who were all going through gnarly breakups and full blown divorce. And I mean, they were just in this. Literally, they were just coming out of the same heartbreak that I had just come out of. And like, okay, this is. This is too weird. And so I did that work for maybe a year and a half. And then this was a huge turning point for me. I would. I remember it was kind of like a. I'm trying to remember. We had like a. A meeting at the church for our ministry. And then. Yeah, okay. And then a woman from the divorce recovery ministry came to visit our ministry, and she's like, hey, I'm running this thing. It's forced recovery ministry, and we need help. And I was like, are you kidding me? Like, you have a full ministry devoted to heartbreak and you're looking for help? And I literally couldn't jump out of my seat fast enough. Like, I'm your guy.

That's so funny.

And it was fantastic. And so I eventually became the leader of that ministry and did that work for the better part of five years.

Isn't it amazing when you get clear on where you want to shift your focus, like, what comes up in your life? Like, it's like they always say, when the student's ready, the teacher appears.

It's so true every time. Yeah. And so, yeah, that was an amazing part of the journey. So grateful for that experience. And it, in fact, it catalyzed and catapulted me into my career. Now.

That'S amazing. That's amazing. So did you know that this would be your career, though? Like, what was that? What was that inkling? Or did you. Did you. Was that like a dream of yours? Like, I'm always curious, like, how did people get into their calling? Like, where did that come from?

Yeah, I think that's a good question. I think early on, the seed was planted because, you know, like I said, I'm going back to school, I'm reading all these books and classes and workshops, and I knew I wasn't going to just. I think I knew instinctively it wasn't all for me. Like, hey, I'm just going to fill my mind with all this great information and, oh, thank you. Have a nice day. I always knew that I was going to carry the message somewhere somehow. And I think it just snowballed, and then it just became abundantly obvious, like, like, dude, this is your calling. Like. Like, you're really good at this. You have a gift for it. And then more and more people just kind of step forward, like, hey, I heard you help people with this. I'd like to learn more. And it just. It just snowballed.

Gosh, that's so powerful, because I think so many people get so stuck on, like, what is my calling? What am I going to do? But, like, you literally just were searching and fixing yourself and being open with your declaration of what you were doing. You attracted it.

Yeah, it's just. It's totally a God thing, how it all just came together and snapped into focus and. Yeah, I mean, it's. It's. It's a blessing beyond words.

Yeah, that's wild. Okay, so back to that first thing you brought up a while ago, and I got completely off track here. Those core fundamentals.

Yeah. So let's. Let's cover. We'll cover these. These are what I call the big four. And so they are love, trust, respect. And then there's a fourth one that doesn't get quite as much airplay, but I think it really should. And that's safety.

I think that's a critical one.

It's critical. And like I said, it just doesn't get as much airtime as I think it should. Your relationships have to be safe. Safe to be yourself, safe to be vulnerable, safe to be perfect. And we'll talk more about it later, I'm sure. But, you know, I've been with my wife now for almost 11 years. We've been married almost nine. And when I was in the dating phase, when I was looking for a woman like her, I just put a high value on love, trust, respect, and safety.

I would concur, I'll say, in my relationship with my husband, those four things are really present and big. And if any of those ever feel rattled, that's what Creates the tension or.

Stress a hundred percent. It's almost like four legs on a table. You have to have them. They're not optional. It's not a luxury. They are fundamental. You have to have them in, not just in small quantities or some diluted amount. I mean, they have to be strong. They are pillars that support your relationship.

So how does one figure out if these things are intact?

So that's. I personally. A couple answers are coming to mind. The first one that immediately jumps up is, I think they come into focus when you engage in a proper courtship. So something I talk a lot about in my Dating After Divorce program is pacing. And so a lot of people. And I get it, like, you meet somebody and there's that attraction, there's that spark. And, you know, things accelerate. Well, we all know the faster you go, the more you miss. Whether you're taking a country drive, you know, out to Julian. I mean, if you do that drive at 200 miles an hour, you're not going to see anything. Chill. And if you just go the speed limit, you'll be like, oh, man, check out those trees. Oh, wow, that's beautiful. Oh, well, hey, let's pull over here. And, you know, it's been. It's more of an adventure and a process.

Yeah.

But I think a lot of people, they get into these very accelerated courtships, and then they get in too deep too fast. They've already made commitments, et cetera, and then they start to learn who they're dating.

Yeah.

Or they start to learn who they're living with, or they start to learn who they're married to. And, you know, one thing I just try to really teach on is just like, you know, you want to collect all that data before you go too deep.

Gosh, that's so funny. You know what? You're so right, too, because I. And I'm guilty of this. On my first marriage, I saw a vision of what I thought I wanted it to be before I saw him. So. And when it wasn't matching my vision, I was in torment, you know, So I think people, like, they want to get married, or they want the wedding, or they want the ideal, they want the idea of it, versus, like, I'm going to get to know this person and fall in love with them.

You. Oh, God. I want to. I want to echo what you just said. They fall in love with the idea of it versus the reality of the work required.

Yes.

And again, I need to pause here as well. Like, everything that I'm sharing today, I've made The opposite mistake more times than I care to admit. Like this, you know, my mission, my programs, it's all based on, like, how I learned how to do it right. But it's based on all the. All the ways I screwed it up and all my personal records.

Yeah, no, I get it. And I think that's why your stuff works, because you've walked through. Through it. If you walked. If you were a single guy in the party scene right now, I don't know that we would. We would take to your programs. So, you know, it's. It's. You've walked through it, and that's what makes it so powerful. So love, truck, respect, and safety, those are the big four, that four pillars, I would imagine, that are the method to a successful relationship and marriage. What are the things that are the wrong things that people are focusing on? They shouldn't be.

Well, okay, so let's talk about this. I think a lot of people, they. Okay, so let's. Let's back up a little bit. So there's this one thing that I'll share with you, and it's attraction, personality, and temperament. And so a lot of people, like, when they're in the dating phase, they'll focus. And again, I'm guilty of this as well, but they'll focus almost 100% on attraction. And we know who we're attracted to instantly. It's biological. It's also based largely on our type, our attachment styles, et cetera. But we make that conclusion pretty doggone fast. Within a matter of seconds, we're like, yeah, attracted to that person. Check. We've checked that box.

Yeah.

Next we'll go out to coffee or maybe grab a drink or grab lunch. And then we start to discover their personality. And that's like, oh, wow. Oh, my gosh. We laugh at the same things. We. We share the same hobbies. We're both extroverts.

It's personality based, but it's an initial personality. It's an impression personality. It's not actually the person. It's like who they're trying to be for that date, don't you think?

100%. And so the third layer is temperament, and that takes longer to bear out. We really need to walk with a person through a variety of seasons of life and see, okay, well, this is how they respond when everything's going well for them. And, okay, this is how they respond when they're going through a storm or a trial. We need to vet that out and really focus on the temperament. And that was something that when, kind of when I did my own work before I reentered the dating pool was I got really clear on what I was going to. What I was going to look for and what I was going to run from. And I share this a lot. I'm like, I don't care how hot, successful, handsome, connected a person is. That doesn't matter. I want to know what's their heart.

Yeah. So powerful.

What's their heart? And unfortunately, you know, Natalie, we live in this culture where we want it now. We won it yesterday. It's microwave culture, where, you know, which is, like, if. If it takes five minutes, that's too long. We're very impatient. But when we're going about the very real business of choosing a life partner, we need, like, we need patience.

Yeah.

We need discernment and discretion. It's because, like, again, we're not buying a car. If you buy the wrong car, you just sell it, trade it back in. We're going about the business of choosing a life partner. It's a big deal.

Yeah, it is. I've got some kind of burning buckets of questions that I want to ask because I'm just thinking ahead to listeners and what they're walking through. So question one would be the bucket of person who has feeling like that there is no one for them. Like, I can't find. There's no good men. There's no good women. I'm just not meant to be in a relationship. Love is hard. They have a whole story around that. What would advice if you were to give them, like, kind of some quick things to start changing their thought process there? What would you advise that bucket of person?

Okay, so what I would first say is fall in love with yourself. And I know. I hope that doesn't sound cliche, and maybe it sounds corny, but it's true. Because the deeper and more connected the relationship you have with yourself is, you're just going to become a magnet. You know, one thing I did in my relational journey because, like, I was. I was single, celibate, and sober for almost three years before I reentered the dating pool. And I had gotten myself to a position where I still wanted a relationship. I still wanted a relationship, but I didn't need one.

Yeah.

And I had built. I had built this satisfyingly healthy life, like my career, you know, my friends, my social connections, my health, you know, my health and wellness and my fitness was just all, like, I was doing great. So I am like, yeah, I want a relationship, but I'm not desperate for One. And I'm willing to be very patient and I'd much rather, and I know this is hard, it's hard to talk about, but I know I'd much rather be single forever than be in the throes of a dysfunctional relationship. So I was very committed to that path. I'm like, I've built this healthy, awesome life for myself. I'm going to be very selective about who I invite into it.

Now, Scott, I'm certainly not a therapist and I'm certainly not a love coach or any of the credentials you have around this. But in my observation, a lot of my experience of people that are looking for love is they're so focused on lack on what they don't have. Like I'm missing this. There's no good men. I'm like, they're so on that lack that they're doing the opposite of being focused on loving themselves. That's my experience. And I think we attract more of what we're focused on.

Amen. A million percent. So like, in addition, I guess as an adjunct or a tool to help someone focus and love themselves and keep building themselves, you know, I'm huge into affirmations and you know, within my courses we've got, you know, kind of like a blueprint of affirmations. And then I encourage, you know, you know, anyone listening to make your own relation, make your own affirmations. Whatever negative self talk that's, that's circulating in your mind, write down the opposite. It's funny, they're, I think they're over. I'm in my office, they're back there. But like I've got this generic stack of 3 by 5 index cards where I've made my own affirmations that I use to combat the crappy. Because nobody's immune to this. I don't care how much personal development you do or what level of self realization. We're human, it's just, it's part of the human condition. So I craft with my own hand, with my own Sharpie, my own affirmations that combat those negative thoughts.

So good, so good, so good. Okay, so next bucket of person. The person in the relationship that is blaming their spouse or partner for everything.

The person in a relationship who is blaming their spouse for everything.

And the person listening knows who that is. Like they're, they're like they think if my husband would just be this or if my wife would just do this, like they're banking that person changing on their happiness.

Okay, so what I would share with that person and It's So. Can I just pause for a second? Yeah. These are, these are really good questions and they're challenging in the sense that I want to give a thorough answer. But I also, I don't want to take the whole show to get.

No, I get it. And I also get that it's an. It depends. So I guess I'm just looking for like the little. The thing that they should first start looking at the starting point for these things.

Sure. So what I would do is. So a conversational technique is. Give me a second here. The person who is blaming their.

So if I'm talking with you, I'm working with you, and I'm like, gosh, if my husband, if he would just like make more money or if he would just like appreciate me more, if he would just stop whatever it's like, then I would be happy. Or we would be. If he would just have this. That type of person. Because I see a lot of that, like not owning it on themselves. Blaming, waiting for the external to change.

Yeah. So, okay, let's. Let's dive in. So I think it's a, it's a situation where the person who is doing the blaming needs to. First of all, I think gratitude is an incredibly powerful tool to be grateful for the money that your spouse is making and also be grateful for the effort that he or she is employing to make that money. Even though it's not what you. It's almost like our perspective generates the feelings which creates the thoughts.

So good.

So if we like, if we're focused on like, man, you know, if my guy would just. Or if my spouse just made as much as I did, or if together we made this. Or it's like, I think when we start to right size our condition, like, you know, you know, most, most people are way more blessed than they acknowledge or give themselves credit for. And it's so easy, especially in our culture, to focus on what we don't have versus getting back into gratitude and be like, okay, hold on, I'm blessed beyond measure. Like, let's have a conversation with the ego and get this thing right sized and keep the main things. The main things. So I think that's an internal process that somebody could go through to kind of calm and soothe their own self. Self talk, but that they're not catastrophizing or making something small, much bigger than it has to be.

I love that. And I'll tell you, my husband and I, We've been together 10 years. We almost got a divorce a couple years ago. And the reason we didn't is that shift. We were so focused on making the other wrong all the time. Like, you could have asked him. At any given moment, he would give you a list of complaints about me. Could have asked me. I would have given you a list of complaints about him. As soon as we shifted to, to what we loved about each other and the gratitude within it, our whole relationship changed.

Yeah. And I love that you shared that. It's a mindset thing. And I go through this with my wife because, well, you know what? My wife is not perfect. And my wife is just not like, she's not just like me, thank God. But there are times when we'll be having like an interpersonal, like a conversation, and I'll catch my. That little voice in my head that's like, man, you know, she's not doing it the way I would do it. And it's all that egoic mind structure. One thing that was shared with me years ago because my wife and I, we did a form of like pre engagement counseling. And it was a great experience. But one thing that the guy shared with me, and I never forgot it and I share it quite often as well, is he's like, Scott, you realize that if she was more like you, you wouldn't have no problems. You'd have different problems.

Yeah. Whole new set.

Whole new set. And I was like, I was, I was speechless. I'm like, oh, my gosh. And so I remind myself of that all the freaking time. That my wife has superpowers that I can't even touch and I have superpowers that she can't touch.

Yeah.

And that's why together we make something. Such a beautiful partnership and a team. And I just have to check myself and be like, dude, she's not like you.

So good. So, gosh, I hope. I mean, just even with our little banter in here, I hope people are noticing a theme that, like, there is no perfect relationship. It's always going to be work in perspective. It's always like, how are you looking at it and how are you working on it?

Yeah. And just one thing I also wanted to share is I think for those who are in a relationship currently, you've just got to keep gently working on your verbal and emotional fluency of asking for what you want. So here's a technique that my wife and I use is instead of complaining about what we're not seeing, we reaffirm what we want to see. So here's a fun example. One of my wife's key love language is acts of service.

Mine too.

And it's not a language that I speak fluently, although I've gotten much better at it. And so sometimes I'll get. Because I work from home and I get busy, I get distracted. And she'll come home and there'll be dishes in the sink, which. It's so funny. When she comes home, it's like the first place she goes, and it's the first thing she looks at. The sink is clean. She's like, ah.

And if it's not clean, it's simple.

Yeah. And so what she'll do is, instead of complaining about the dishes, she'll say, honey, I really love it when I come home and the place is tidy and the dishes are done. And those words wash over my heart in such a healthy way that all she. I. I don't get defensive. I don't get reflexive. I'm just like, wow, my sweet, loving wife is just reminding me of what she needs.

So good. So good.

Yeah, It's a blessing.

So good. I love that. What? You know, it's funny that you just said that, because my husband and I love to speak into vision, like what you said about, like, what you want for things. So we'll talk about, like, our. Like, as if it's happened. Like it's three years from now and this is what's happening. And we started not just talking about our vision, but what we saw with the other person, how they're supporting us. So it's almost like what you're saying. And I said to Brooks, and he started laughing. We were doing one of those exercises, and I said, my husband makes the bed every day. And he started laughing. But what was funny about it is he never even occurred to him that that's something that would make me feel supported. But I'm an active service person, too. I think there is a lack of communication with couples and saying what they actually need. Instead. We just build up what we're resentful for, and then we blow up on them. But we never told them what we needed.

We never told them what we needed. And it's because it's scary. It's vulnerable to put it out there and ask for what you need, even though it might be this very innocent or innocuous request. We just. Well, I think a lot of people, they just assume that our partners are incredible mind readers and they should just know and they should just do it. And that's not reality.

It's not reality. And our one love language is not the same for us. As it is for our spouse, necessarily.

Oh, gosh. It's not. It's hilarious. One thing I want to speak about that is. And by the way, I love Dr. Gary Chapman, big fan of the Five Love Languages. But one thing that I like to share with people is there's actually dozens of love languages. And when you really kind of start to sit with some exercises, you can see like it's not just those five, although I think those five are incredible. It's a very powerful and effective tool. But we can start to also get into, like the sub modalities and these nuanced love languages that are very specialized. And when we start learning through self awareness what those are and then articulating those to our partner, oh, my goodness, magic starts to happen.

So good. I'm going to. I want to know, what are those 12? Do you know them off the top of your head?

Oh, I'm just. I'm just using dozens as an example.

Oh, dozens as an example. Got it. Okay.

They're typically different. Well, they're invariably. They're almost always different for each person in each couple.

Yeah, that's. That's really good. Gosh, I could ask you so many. I feel like I'm asking you a million questions here. I do have one final question before I ask where people can find you and learn about your programs and more. But what? This is a question I've always asked every guest, but I'm going to tweak it a little bit for yours. I usually ask, if someone's in their own personal rock bottom and they want to shift out of it, what's some advice you would give for them to shift and create everything from nothing. But with you, I want to specifically ask if someone is going through a breakup or a divorce and they feel like they are in their rock bottom, if you were to give them a few steps right now to start shifting out of that and stepping into something new, what would you tell them?

Yeah, so I would tell them. I would tell them four things, if I may. One is don't make any big moves. You know, don't like, for example, like, don't move to a new city. Don't move to a new town. Don't. Don't just sit with it like, now is not the time for big moves. Who knows? Maybe a career change is in your future. I'd be careful about that right now. I would seek stability in as many places you can. So just no big moves.

Wait, before you go on with number two and three, I was about to ask you why? And then my head started going because I went through a big breakup. I moved from D.C. to San Diego, did exactly that. And I thought that was great. But I met my husband that I'm now divorced from and was married within three months. So maybe that's why you mean that.

It is. It's a version of an outside solution to an inside problem. And that's something I just try to keep all my students really conscious of, is we need to sit in this thing long enough for it to do its work. A divorce or bad breakup is a powerful catalysts for tremendous personal growth. And we don't want to do anything to short circuit that amazing process. And again, these all kind of fall into outside solutions to inside problems. We just want to be really careful with that.

That makes sense. Because moving and our voice is just another way of avoiding and numbing out. Not feeling.

Yeah, that's what it's.

You're not processing it precisely. Okay, so number two. So that's number two. Don't make any big moves. Number.

Yeah, number two would be no new relationships.

Dad, nab it. You're getting me on all these. I did that too.

Hey, you know what? I'm getting myself on all these. I've made all these freaking, like, break.

Up, you're with someone new a week later. Oh, yeah, I did that too.

Me too. So, yeah, just no new relationships. I think when you're going through a divorce or a bad breakup, that's a season. You just really need to embrace a season of singlehood and really just reaffirm the relationship with yourself. Do some deep work, very strong relational inventory. Find out what your patterns and habits are. Do all that work before you dive in to a new relationship. And it's just going to increase your odds of success if you take that journey.

Got it.

No big moves, no new relationships. I would also. Number three would be no big purchases. Especially in our culture. I think retail therapy is another powerful drug of choice. I know this is hilarious, but when I went through my divorce, it was 13 days exactly after the divorce, and I went out and bought a motorcycle. And it was so funny. I bought that bike and I rode it around and I'm like, ah, this. This really is. It's not doing it for me. It's not enough. I want something bigger, better, faster. And I think I had that bike for two weeks and then traded it in and bought another motorcycle. So my point is, here I am 30 days out of my divorce and I bought two motorcycles. And it's a powerful distraction. And it's that temporary dopamine hit. Yeah. It's another outside solution to an inside problem.

All right, what's number four, Scott?

Number four is don't go it alone. Let your need be known. Start building a support system, a pit crew, if you will. You know, work with somebody who has successfully navigated a divorce, you know, and can show you the fastest and easy, easiest way out.

I love that. I love that. This has been really, really insightful, Scott. Tell us about your programs. Where can people find you? Where do they start with you if they want to learn more?

Yeah. Thank you. So you can find me easily enough@thegreatrelationshipacademy.com and that's where it all starts. They can also find me@healingfromheartache.com and that's my site where the podcast lives, and that is completely 100% all about divorce and breakup recovery.

I love that. Thank you so much, Scott.

Yeah, you're welcome. Hey, if I may, I want to just touch on one last thing, because I think it's valid to share this. I frequently talk about hitting the reset button on different areas of your life. And earlier on in our chat today, we talked about my journey into sobriety and for me personally, and I know this is different for everybody, but I embraced a season of sobriety. So I was sober and participating in AA and really tapping into that amazing resource, which I would encourage. Well, I would encourage pretty much anybody to investigate it, but I did that for about two and a half years. That was my season. And I remember I spoke with my sponsor. I said, dude, I really never thought I was an alcoholic, but I needed this program on an emotional level to really help me get through that breakup, because I never could have got through that breakup if I was still partying on the weekends. And he looked at me, he's like, scott, I always knew you weren't an alcoholic. And I was like. I went, really? You knew? You knew this whole time? He's like, dude, I wasn't going to say anything because you were doing so well. You were embracing the program. You were doing the work. You were growing like crazy. The last thing I was going to do was interrupt that by labeling you.

That's amazing.

I'm still really good friends with him today. My point is, I hit the reset button on my relationship with partying and alcohol. And now today, I'll have a glass of wine here with friends or a beer there over dinner. It's been completely reset, as I accomplished also with my season of CELIBACY my season of singlehood. These were all examples of hitting the reset button on certain well, I could also like, I also did like a season of minimalism where I ended up hitting the reset button on my attitudes towards consumer wow.

Lots of powerful work there. But the commonality with all of that is you let yourself walk through it, you let yourself feel it, you let yourself take it on without numbing out and avoiding. And I love that.

And I just, I just, I wanted to add that in at the end because I want your listeners to know that like you can embrace seasons. It doesn't have to be permanent. It's not forever. You don't have to like, if you want to investigate a program, well, investigate that program or that way of living for a season, hit the reset button. You'll recalibrate and then see if there's a more moderate approach that might be better for you personally.

So good. Thank you so much, Scott.

Thank you. Natalie. This was, this was fantastic. Thank you.

Thanks for leveling up with us today. Please share this episode if you found it helpful so others can join in. And don't forget to hit that subscribe so you don't miss out on future show shows. And if you would leave me a five star review, I appreciate those so much. I read all of them and it's how I know that I'm giving you information that you find valuable and come interact with me over on Instagram @nataliejofit. I read all the direct messages and comments over there. Make it a great day. Creating everything from nothing.

Sa.