186: Navigating Addiction During Quarantine with Thais Gibson

Hi, I'm Natalie Jill, fat loss expert turned high performance coach. When odds are stacked against us, how do we shift and create everything from nothing? How do we level up when we aren't feeling it yet or we've had a big setback? On this podcast, I'll be talking to some of the most inspiring and courageous men and women on this planet who at their worst, learned how to achieve success greater than they ever dreamed possible. Leveling up and creating everything from nothing. Today on Leveling Up, I've got Thais Gibsons and I'm excited to chat with her today. I met her from a mutual friend and I just thought such a timely story to interview right now because Thais, she is the founder and creator of a personal development school. And many of you listening have ventured into personal development, whether it's attending classes or reading or listening to things. But I wanted somebody on that actually founded a school around this because she founded this after her herself was going through some incredibly tough times in her life. So, Thais, thank you so much for being here today.

Thank you so much for having me. Very excited to be here.

So you have it all together now. You're super attractive, you're successful, you are helping so many people. But I realize that's not always who you were. So take us back. Who were you several years back? What was going on in your life?

Yeah, so for me, I originally started as an athlete and was very determined as a young kid to sort of get a soccer scholarship and honestly to leave home. And the sort of core reasons for this were that there were a lot of underlying unresolved traumas that had sort of gone on in my home space. And I think I was sort of looking for an escape. And in my junior year, just before my junior year of high school, which is sort of your scouting year for these sorts of things, I had a knee surgery and had a bad injury and, you know, started taking painkillers as a result and got really hooked on the painkillers themselves. And I didn't even really understand what addiction was, to be honest. I was so young and. But I just knew, like, wow, life is so much easier to operate when I'm feeling this way.

And so let me ask you. I don't want to. I don't want to. I don't mean to interrupt you or cut you off, but this is really a critical thing here because there's, there's such an epidemic right now with painkillers. Like, it's such a. It's such a thing. But some People never get addicted. Some people really do. Like, how. How did you know you were getting addicted to them?

What?

Because was it just taking away the pain or were you feeling a high from it? What was happening that that even happened?

Yeah, it's a great question. So for me, I first obviously was prescribed them for the surgery, and I started realizing, wow, this makes life easier. And I don't think I realized how much subconscious pain I was carrying the entire time. And, you know, these sorts of realizations came much later, but I sought to refill them. And then I had a girl who was a year older than me come to me and say, oh, well, these are amazing performance enhancers. So, like, when you're trying to get back into your, you know, get back and sort of recoup everything from surgery, this is a great thing to do now, mind you. Like, this person also ended up selling them to me. And so I'm sure there's, like, more to the story, but I was so young and naive, and I just knew they made me feel better. And then I started getting them from her. And so basically, I think. And something I really pushed to sort of share the message about is that it's, you know, the issue, isn't the issue. The painkillers are like a symptom of underlying subconscious, unresolved emotions, traumas, things that we're storing and sort of our perceptual worldview. And so for me, I had no idea about any of this. I just knew these make me feel better, life becomes easier, things are easier to navigate. And it went on for me to be something that started out as just something I was doing because I had them around. And then something I was seeking out and then something I was really connecting to. And for me, I really realized it was an addiction problem when I went through my first set of withdrawals, and I didn't really know what a withdrawal even was at the point. And so all I knew was like, I'm having these flu, like, symptoms, and I'm itchy and I feel uncomfortable. And I realized after doing a little bit of research what was actually going on. And that's when it was horrifying for me. And it was because I had run out. And then I really tried to make this commitment to myself, like, oh, I'm not going to go back there. And I did. And I kept seeking them out, and it was just like, I couldn't stop. And one of the biggest things that I felt was just this war within myself and, like, my conscious mind wanting to stop and not do that and not go down that path. And I'm too young to live like this forever. And then my subconscious mind, obviously having a really different set of motives and research. Sorry, go ahead.

No, no, go. Go ahead. I have so many questions, so I'm.

Just going to say biting my tongue.

But keep going, keep going.

Research ends up showing that your conscious mind can't outwill or overpower your subconscious. And if I knew that at the time, I would have had a different way of trying to approach it, but I didn't. And so that battle with me went on for about seven years before there was any real breakthrough sort of happening.

Oh, my gosh. Okay. So many questions coming up for me. My first question is. So as I'm interviewing you, literally my arm is in a brace from having a torn bicep. And I have painkillers right now. And I am. I don't have addiction tendencies, but I'm always super scared of those for that reason. Do you believe that anyone can get addicted, or is it only if you've got that, like, what you said, something going on at home that you wanted to cover up? I'm very curious about that, because I do take them sometimes when I really need them, and I've always been frightened of that.

Yeah. So one of the biggest things that I find is that it's that same principle. It's like, the problem isn't the problem. And I think that people can take. I mean, how many people do we know, you know, a grandmother who's had hip surgery or hip replacement or, you know, and how many people in their lives have had to take painkillers for some sort of surgery at some point? And not everybody's getting addicted. And so I think this concept that it's really about the substance is really misleading because it makes us think, oh, you know, it's a substance itself. The substance, if we have a negative relationship to it, it's about what's going on within. Within us first that we're trying to numb and escape from. And because the brain is so wired to avoid pain, if we're in pain emotionally, subconsciously, we take something like a painkiller that's literally going to numb that pain. Your subconscious mind goes, oh, my goodness. And it builds all these positive associations to that substance because it's serving something in a deeper level. And I think until addiction is really approached from that sort of perspective, like, hey, what's going on at the root level that's creating this need for the relationship in the first place? To the substance, then you're just dealing with it at the conscious level, and it's almost impossible to create changes.

That's super powerful. And I've actually never heard it explained that way. And I really. Because you're right, most people address it as it's the substance, but what you're saying is it's the underlying root cause, not the injury. You're not even talking about the injury and the pain there. You're talking about you've got other stuff going on in your life. If that's not being addressed, if you have not learned to emotionally address that, then it doesn't matter what the substance is. Something could come into your life that numbs it and creates that issue. That's pretty powerful. So when you were going through this battle with yourself, like, okay, so obviously, you know, it's now five years later, years down the road. The injury is not the injury there anymore. So what was going on in your mind? Like, you had this big secret. Did you think it was. Did you talk to anybody about it? What was. How was that operating? And were you still doing painkillers or did it escalate to something else?

Yeah, so it sort of escalated into, like, more intense versions of painkillers, going into, like, OxyContin, these sorts of things that were obviously stronger versions. And also the way I was taking them, you know, I wasn't just swallowing them, I was crushing them up and all these sorts of things. So, you know, the relationship obviously evolved. But for me, I think this is such an important point for me to share is that, you know, I was at war with myself. Like, my. I was journaling every night as a kid. Like, how am I going to stop? I'm going to avoid this girl in the hallway. I'm going to go this way. And I had all of these things that I was trying to do. And honestly, the more I tried to resist what was happening, the more I was pushing against myself and warring with myself, the worse it actually got. And I would blame myself and beat up on myself. And I, you know, looking back and what I know now is that my internal dialogue was very critical of myself. I was trying to, like, out will or overpower myself. And it was really the war between my conscious mind and my subconscious mind. And so when I learned, okay, there's actually subconscious things going on here, what. What am I running from? What are the traumas that I have to work through? What are the conversations I have to have? What are these, you know, what meaning did I give to these painful things? That happened in my life earlier on, before the addiction started, that I'm carrying with me as a story of myself and how can I actually work on those underlying factors? And so I actually was in rehab at different points. Those things didn't work for me. But as soon as I learned about the subconscious and working through the emotional components of things, that's when things really transformed for me. And that was the beginning of my real healing process.

Okay, so I want to know, why did rehab not work for you? Because it works for some people. I'm curious about that. Let's go there first. And then I'm wanting to know how you figured out that it's these other things because that I get it on the other side, because I've done a lot of personal development, why that's important. But I know it wasn't easy getting me to that point. So I want to know. I'm curious how you even figured that out. But let's start with why did rehab not work? What was brought, what was broken there?

I think for me, it was like this. It's really personal. I think rehab can definitely work for certain people. I think for me, a lot of the core wounds I was carrying in my own subconscious mind were things about being trapped, confined, not having freedom, these sorts of things in different situations and traumas I'd been through. So I think just the concept of rehab and being there and being trapped and confined, and I think it almost just added to that. And so right away, I went into this sort of fight or flight mode. I don't think I was present and able to take away from things what I was able to. And I also think. And you. There are tremendous things about our healthcare system. Absolutely. But I think that generally the western model at this current time has a lot to do with let's target our behavioral patterns. Let's target basically the conscious mind. And it's a lot more coping than going underneath and finding the root causes to certain things. And so when I was there, I mean, I was also diagnosed with depression and anxiety. And one of the big sort of realizations. And I'll go to how I started learning about this. But, you know, we're taught like, oh, depression, anxiety, chemical imbalance. And, you know, that's great, and that's absolutely true. And we can have certain genetic predispositions towards these things. But at the root level, nobody. You don't see children born with depression or anxiety. You don't see an infant. So what actually happens over time is people collect imprints on Their subconscious belief patterns about themselves because of painful experiences that they couldn't emotionally process. And then we learn to walk around with these. And these belief patterns create patterns of thought. So if I believe, for example, I'm not good enough or I'm not loved, then I'm going to go into other relationships on a daily basis thinking thoughts that relate to these core beliefs I carry in my perception at a deep level of myself. These thought patterns create emotional output. Thoughts are constantly producing emotions, even at the micro level. And these emotions are made up of neurochemical reactions. So where does the chemical imbalance come from? Really? It's at the belief level, our subconscious eliciting these patterns of thought emotion which impact our neurochemical levels. If we have painful beliefs, eventually we have painful neurochemicals like cortisol, norepinephrine, and vice versa. And so for me, deconstructing that, and that actually only happened to me because I came across this amazing mentor in my life at like an absolute rock bottom. I think he was sort of an angel in a way, like to MySpace. And he introduced me a little bit to the subconscious and to spirituality and meditation. And it pivoted like I was really passionate about getting better and healing and all these different things, but I just, I was losing the battle every day to myself. And so he introduced me to these things. And it just. I remember feeling all the time I'm at war with myself. I'm at war with myself. And. And I understood, oh, it's like there's two parts of myself. And so then I got extreme interested in the subconscious and things evolved from there.

Okay, so the rock bottom, what was that? What was the rock bottom you were feeling? Because I personally get that. I've been there before where you have this. You feel like you're battling yourself. Like it feels fake. Almost like, okay, people are seeing me this one way, I'm putting out this, but inside I'm being torn up with that. That is definitely how I would describe my rock bottom 12 years ago. So what was your rock bottom? How did you know you were in Rock Bot? Did you feel that way, like it was fake to others?

Yeah, I mean, my rock bottom was pretty rock bottom. I mean, the long and short of it is that I was married to somebody who got married really young at 19. They were also struggling with addiction. And I was in the process of getting paperwork and staying in the US and trying to finish my education and work out my life and basically caught him cheating. And because we were living in his home that his parents owned. I sort of all in one fell swoop, like lost my relationship, lost my papers and sort of was unable to work because I was on a work permit, dependent on those papers. And so I just sort of found myself, I'm a Canadian citizen in the US like absolutely losing everything and trying to map out like where I am as a human being and how to heal from this. And I was still enrolled in part time school at the time. And that's actually how I got introduced to somebody who was that mentor and sort of person for me. And I was lucky to have one really, really amazingly supportive friend. And she sort of took me in and I was able to sort of transition long term. But the rock bottom was like basically life blew up and I was forced to really face myself and really tough time. But also probably one of the most beautiful chapters of my life because of the learning and healing I was doing.

So when you were going through that, were you using substances more when that was happening? Was a tendency to go and numb out and like get more oxy, get more of that. And you mentioned crushing it. I don't know much about what that means, but so I'm assuming that makes it stronger or something happened. There was was a tendency to go and do more when that happened. And how did this person interrupt you?

Yeah, so the tendency was absolute. I mean that's the go to, right Is the first thing that you're moving in the direction of. But so that was a huge thing. But I also was really out of resources and so it was sort of this like back and forth sort of thing. Whereas in the past it was more consistent and low level, like just I was pretty functional when I was doing all this stuff. To a certain degree I knew how to sort of COVID the tracks and do all the things I needed to do. So I think definitely the tendency was there more. I know I ended up drinking a lot more during that time, but these things are expensive and when you're out of resources and all these different things and that changes the dynamic as well. So it kind of set me ahead on the healing journey to a certain degree because it was like I don't have the same options and it forced me to face a lot of these things a step further. But absolutely, I mean at the time, and I was still really young, you know, 20, 21 years old. And at the time that was the coping skill that I had developed and I had patterned into my subconscious for years.

Did you one, what was your parents, your family involved? Did they know what was going on, and did it ever escalate to street drugs, like, hair? Like, a lot of times people will say, well, I couldn't afford this anymore, so now they're using heroin. Did it get worse like that?

Yeah. So great question. So, number one, my parents said no. Did they know the full extent? I don't think so. They did help me in terms of financially supporting rehab when I went. So they knew what was going on, and we're in the loop. You know, I have an amazing relationship to both my parents now, and I'm very grateful for both of them. But at the time, they were also going through this really tumultuous divorce, and all these things were happening. So basically, they just weren't able to really reach out and be there. And I think they just didn't know what to do, and they were overwhelmed. So I was really. I was. They were in Canada, I was in Florida. And, you know, sort of. I wasn't in contact very much on a regular basis. And more of what was happening was just me having to figure these things out for myself. But I think that was one of the most powerful lessons I got is, like, if nobody's around, you're forced to really, truly look and take accountability. And I think, honestly, before that point in my life, I had been bailed out at different. At different points by them. And I think that bailing out was preventing me from really having to be like, I am truly alone to figure this out. And again, like, that was sort of what developed the spiritual relationship for me, like, and all these other wonderful things that came out.

So I want to hear about the interruption, because obviously this person came into your life and started doing you to the subconscious mind and emotions and all of these things. How was this person able to get through to you and interrupt? Because a lot of people right now listening that are struggling with this themselves, but also people that have a child or a best friend or a family member that is going through this, and. And I want to be able to support them. Like, how did they interrupt this conversation? How do they interrupt the conversation? And how were you interrupted?

Yeah, it's a beautiful question. You know, I think truly, you know, this person was amazing and definitely going to be a great mentor to other people and all these wonder things. But I think that one of the really strong points of addiction is it's really easy to form those codependent relationships with the addicts in your life and to go, I have to fix their pain. I don't want to see them in pain. You know, I can be out of pain if I know that they're okay. And sometimes we can get too involved. And I think, you know, one of the really big points there is, I think if it was two years before that, I may not have been ready. And I think because I was at such a rock bottom, I remember being like, God, if you exist, I'm here. Like, I'm ready. And it was soon after. It's like that when the student is ready, the teacher appears, type of. And so I think that that was the catalyst is actually being at a rock bottom. So I would say, like, you know, if you're trying to get through to people, one of the best things you can do is show up. But show up in a way that does not enable the person and forces that person to take accountability. Because I think any movement beyond that can create a lot of suffering for more people. And then we're really spreading that pain and spreading that. Maybe not addiction to the codependent person, but, you know, a lot more pain and suffering that might be unnecessary. And. And honestly, I don't think that it always helps to be there too much for people who are going through that. I think that accountability is key. And even though you're an addict, you are still equally responsible to help yourself. And it's a hard message to give. And there's a lot of helplessness in it. And there's a lot of, like, you definitely need to receive support, but that support has to tread a very careful line because otherwise it's an enabling. And honestly, the addict mind looks at things through like, how can we, okay, how can this help me get closer to what I need? How can this help me? And it's so unfortunate because, you know, you can take really good people who are just that wounded and that's. They're so consumed. And that's all you can think about at the time. But, you know, you should be careful with anybody in that space. At the same time, what do you.

Want the person to know that's dealing with this right now? Especially with what's going on in the world? Because right now as we're recording this, we, you know, everybody's quarantined. People are dealing with huge losses of their income. They have friends getting sick. There's the fear. Anxiety is at an all time high with people. So the tendency to cave into an addiction is very, very strong right now. Help me help listeners right now. Like, what do you want them to know? Because I get it, the tendency is to numb out.

Yes. So it's a beautiful question. Number one, addiction is not your fault. You didn't ask for painful programs. You didn't ask every single person, in my opinion, that I've ever worked with, seen, done workshops with, classes, anything, anybody who's struggling with addiction. It's, you know, in Dr. Gabor Mate's words, it's not why the addiction, it's why the pain. And so, really like those pain, we didn't ask for these painful programs and all these different things. So it's not your fault, but it is your responsibility. Because truly, the only person that can help the addict at the root level is themselves. And so that's message number one. And message number two, is that the reason that these things still exist when I know that, you know, if people are in that situation right now, you don't want that. You don't want that. Maybe it's just food addiction and overeating or television. You're just numbing out, watching hours of tv or just things you're doing that you don't like. At whatever level that's occurring, that's because there's underlying issues, and it's the subconscious mind. And until you target that, research conclusively has proven for years that the conscious mind cannot overpower the subconscious. And so try to find what those root sources are of what's going wrong and what you're carrying. And this really occurs in the unmet needs in your life and the painful belief patterns that you might be carrying about yourself and all the thoughts and emotional patterns that sort of are the offshoot of that. And if you can really tune into those things and start correcting those, what you'll notice is that the symptoms being the addiction really of these underlying problems start to naturally fall away to a certain degree. And then obviously, you can do some targeted things around that, but that's one of the most important things you can do and realize. And I'll say one third message, because this is very close to my heart, but I would say the third thing is the more you beat yourself up for who you are and what you're doing, the closer you're moving to the problem instead of the solution. And healing from this truly requires a certain amount of compassion for yourself and gentleness towards yourself.

Okay, so I'm hearing you. I want help on if you can do this, on how we start to do it, because that's the. The big question. So if I'm listening right now and I'm struggling with this, and I hear you, it's making sense. But gosh it feels good just to numb out, you know, it feels good. What do I do? I got it that it's not my fault. I got it that I need compassion for myself. That there's an underlying thing. How do I start? Help me help that question. Like, how do. Because I know that's what people want to know. How do they start? What do they do?

Yes, absolutely. So, number one, there's always two things that are causing emotional pain, and there are not more than two. And these two things are the unmet needs and then those belief patterns we carry about ourselves and the thoughts and emotions that come with them accordingly. So your emotions are a feedback mechanism. They're like a beauty. They're your guides. They're beautiful, and they're supportive of you. But our relationship to our emotions has been taught the wrong way. So, you know we're going to have negative emotional output when we have unmet needs. And that's helpful. That's how we've evolved for this long as a species. Right. That's there to serve us. And then we are also going to have pain when we start having negative internal dialogue in the relationship to ourselves. So, oh, you're an idiot for doing this, you're stupid for doing that. Or these painful. And those are the result of painful beliefs we've collected because of hard things we've been through at different points in our lives. So what we really need to do to get to the root, root cause is identify what stories do we tell about ourselves that are painful and what unmet needs are there in our lives. And a really good place to start. And I can just share some core beliefs. In my experience, there's 18 to 22 core beliefs, and these include things like, I'm not good enough. I'm unloved, I'm disrespected, I'm not smart enough. Okay. Which is really sort of the core belief. I am stupid, I am alone, I am abandoned, I am disliked, I am excluded. And as we collect more beliefs like this, these are very common. I am unworthy. All these beliefs start to form this deep underlying perception of ourselves, and we either go out of our way to compensate for these things and can fall into sort of addictive patterns of behavior. For example, maybe somebody thinks they're not good enough, and so they overcompensate all the time and become a workaholic. Right. And even that can sort of have this offshoot. So we have to correct these underlying belief patterns. And if you'd like, I'll send a little worksheet that people can grab with identical.

Yeah, that'd be great.

Yeah. And then the other thing is our needs and everything is also an offshoot. And Tony Robbins talks about this, but it's our base, our six basic human needs. And when these things are unmet in any form, this starts to cause pain as well. And so we want to be able to identify, like, what needs. So these are certainty, which is like safety, uncertainty, which is like novelty, variety, exploration, significance, which is sort of the meaning in our lives. Right. It can be relationship to God, relationship to others, feeling important, needed, like we matter, etc. So we've got certainty, uncertainty, significance. We've got growth, which when we're not growing, we do not feel good. So it's an important piece. We've got love and connection and we've got contribution. And whenever there's an imbalance in any of these areas of our lives, we will also start to feel pain. And that pain again. It's there to support you and let you know. Know what's going on. And so normally I find with addicts, the needs are actually somewhat secondary because they're so consumed with their thinking. And so it's really important to start with the stories of yourself first and start correcting those things and reprogramming those things and really questioning them and working to change the patterns of internal dialogue and the way that you speak to yourself throughout the day. And then it's really about harvesting, getting those needs met after that step is taken care of.

Mm. Now do you believe, because you've obviously evolved yourself so much. I mean, you have got a school now with. With this and personal development, and you help so many others. Do you yourself find yourself, especially in hard times like this, being tempted? Does that addiction pop back up? How do you fight that now?

Beautiful question. Thank you for asking. I actually do not. I remember going into AA meetings and NA meetings and sitting there and being like, oh, my gosh. Watching people stand up and sort of have these, like, tokens you get for day 100 or whatever day people are on. And I remember thinking, I am so young. How am I going to live like this forever? Like, warring and being in this position. And one of the things I am probably most grateful for in my life is that that really has gone away from me. And it's gone away for years now, Many, many years. But it's. It's. There is no. I just had a tooth surgery not too long ago, and I had painkillers in my home. And I just remember thinking to myself, like, wow, what an amazing thing that this is here. And I don't even think about it. It's not even a second thought. The reason for this and really, truly is that if you can resolve those big underlying pain points and meet your needs and have a balanced life, you are resolving things at the core, root level. I can definitely safely say that I don't think I will ever have an addiction problem again in my life and whatever happen. And so I am definitely grateful to be at that point. And it's possible for people.

So, you know what's interesting about that? I don't know much about AA other than a few things from interviewing people. One of the things that I believe AA does and correct me if I'm wrong, is they. You state, I'm powerless with this substance. Isn't that correct that you say that I'm powerless to this substance? So if I'm hearing you correct, we really are not powerless to it.

It's.

You really do have that responsibility, and you really. So is that. Would you agree? Or maybe I'm missing this, but that. That messaging is basically keeping you powerless to it.

Yeah. So it's. It's honestly that we are powerless to our subconscious mind, if you could put that in really technical terms. It's that we are powerless to these deeper parts of ourselves that are running the show. And that once we start to understand what those things are and sort of deconstruct them and dive in there, we really can take our power back. And so, absolutely, it's important to recognize that there's a certain degree of certainty that needs to be there and a certain degree of patience and understanding. But it's the powerlessness that people experience because it's such a big thing in addiction is really this powerlessness to the deeper programs within themselves that until they discover. Yes, they will stay usually feeling powerless too.

Wow. So. So powerful here. Okay, tell us about the school. How did you end up forming the school and where does it. What do you do with it? How do people go to it or find it?

Yeah. So. So basically it started because I. So after this sort of happened, I probably became a little bit addicted to, like, personal development and personal growth. And. And so I went back and. And was able to sort of heal myself and then go and do a master's degree in transpersonal psychology. And then I did about 13 different certifications in, like, everything. And I was still just planning on learning for a while because I was still pretty young and wasn't planning on starting a practice right away. But I just wanted to share with people. So I did a few workshops and my practice filled up, up like basically overnight and had a wait list and all these things. So I was really trying to find a way to like give back. Like it was, it's so close to my heart. And one of the things that I remember saying so many times to myself when I was about to do what I was doing is, you know, I don't want anybody else to ever feel this alone. And I used to think that all the time. And so I think that's sort of this deep internal driver for me is to sort of share with others and put that information out there. So I started teaching classes to help support the people I couldn't see in practice. And then I was just working so much and I was like, okay, this is a little too much work. And I actually got in touch with Giovanni, who I think you had sort of had as a guest and he said you need to be putting this stuff online because then you're not just trading your time for money. And I had about a year long wait list in my practice and all these things. And so we decided to do that and put some content on YouTube and developed the school launched it October 2019 and it's been extremely, went way better than I ever would have expected. And we've seen amazing transformations in there. And we have about 28 courses in there on everything from depression, anxiety, addiction, you name it, attachment theory, relationships, all different types of things. And I just, I create two courses new a month and we have two live webinars that I do every week and it's a beautiful community and that's sort of what's happened and it's almost like it was happening and I was just trying to keep up with what was going on the entire time. But it's been an amazing blessing and yeah, we're just hoping to share. It's all about the subconscious mind. All the information people got is about dealing with things at the subconscious level. And that's what I really hope that people can come to understand.

So incredible. How do people find this?

So they can find it at www.personaldevelopmentschool.com and I also have a whole bunch of free content that I put on YouTube. So it's personal developmentschool Thais Gibson and there's free content for people there as well. Or of course we would love to have you and come in and join and enter the courses.

That's amazing. And just so if you all are listening, we'll put this in the show notes, but just in case you spell her name Tyee T H A I S and then her last name is Gibsons G I B S O N S yeah. Thank you. T H A I S yeah.

Yes, we got it.

Thank you so much for being here today.

Thank you so much for having me and thank you for the amazing work that you're doing and bringing all this information out there.

Thanks for leveling up with us today. Please share this episode episode if you found it helpful so others can join in. And don't forget to hit that subscribe so you don't miss out on future shows. And if you would leave me a five star review. I appreciate those so much. I read all of them and it's how I know that I'm giving you information that you find valuable and come interact with me over on Instagram @nataliejofit. I read all the direct messages and comments over there. Make it a great day. Create Creating everything from nothing.