206: Navigating Anxiety and Depression with Dr. Leah Katz

Hi, I'm Natalie Jill, fat loss expert turned lifestyle and high performance coach. When odds are stacked against us, how do we shift and create everything from nothing? How do we level up when we aren't feeling it yet or have had a big setback? And how do we adjust quickly when life throws us major curveballs? On this podcast, I do what I do best. Taking complicated information that is relevant to us now and breaking it down simply with actionable steps you can implement to level up your own life. I also regularly interview some of the most inspiring and courageous men and women on the planet who at their worst, learn how to achieve success greater than they ever dreamed possible. Leveling up, creating everything from nothing. If you are new here, I encourage you to go back and listen from episode one for the full transformative experience. Today on Leveling up, I've got Dr. Leah Katz, and she's a clinical psychologist and she's written many articles for Psychology Today, but she currently works in a group practice where she specializes working with teenagers and women with a focus on treating anxiety and depression. And wow, what the perfect time this is to have you as a guest on this show because anxiety and depression is rampant right now with everything going on in the world. Thank you so much for being here today.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

So take us back a little bit before I dive into the millions of questions I have for you. How did you even become a psychologist? Why was that your calling? What was that calling to you? And why? Specializing in teens and women.

Yeah, so, I mean, this, it's going back a ways now, but the beginning of my journey really started in high school when I had a close friend struggle with an eating disorder. And so I was really close to her. And this was something that was very difficult for her. And I witnessed for a long time because we were friends for a long time. And so that planted the seed in me that this is something that I wanted to do to help people with this because I saw how devastating it was to her and to her friends and to her family. So that's where it really started from that little nugget. And actually, when I went to grad school for psychology, I thought that that's what I would do. I thought I was going to specialize in working with people with eating disorders. And my career took a very different path. And that's not what I treat right now. But that's where I did start. I did internships on eating disorders units. And yeah, so that was the beginning of it all. And I think throughout the journey I just developed a passion for different mental health related topics and helping people with different issues.

Why the pivot from eating disorders? Was it because of the underlying cause of that or was that something you just wasn't of interest or. I'm curious where that very specific focus that then moved.

Yeah, I did a year long volunteer position on an eating disorders unit. I was in New York at the time at Columbia. And. And while the work was really rewarding and I liked being there, I felt the frustration. It was just to me and I think that there are some people and some clinicians who feel very invigorated by that work. But to me it felt frustrating in terms of maybe not seeing enough change or seeing people come back in for treatment who had been doing better. So I think that that was kind of where I shifted away from that. And then also like I had mentioned this friend that that was really like what, what spurred me into psychology and you know, like the frustrations, it felt very personal. You know, it was kind of like, yeah, I'm watching her struggle and you know, it's. It still is a battle for her actually. So I kind of, you know, I just wanted to do something that felt really real and passionate to me, but a little bit less personal and maybe something where I can feel like I'm making more of a difference.

Yeah, I get that. So then why the pick of anxiety and depression? Because obviously right now during COVID and lockdowns, this is heavy. But just in general life, what made you pivot towards and focus there?

Yeah, I mean, I think that it's something that's so. It's so out there, it's so prevalent, you know, and it's rampant. Anxiety is the number one most diagnosed mental health disorder in America. And so it's something that, you know, I think some of it probably was intention. I really like treating anxiety. I feel like there's really tight skill sets to be able to help people with anxiety learn so that they can better manage their anxiety. So there was like this really nice rewarding feeling and working with people with anxiety. So there was that. And also like, you know, I think just in terms of like my training and the different places that I've been at, it kind of just came to me because it's so. Because it's so prevalent and because so many of the women that I started off training in my internship years were dealing with some form of anxiety. You know, anxiety is a big umbrella term for many different forms of anxiety. So I just naturally fell into working with a lot of anxiety.

Yeah. Do you find that anxiety and depression typically go hand in hand or are they totally separate things?

I think they can be separate things definitely where, you know, one person might have one presentation versus the other, but oftentimes they come together and actually like what I'm seeing a lot of right now, pandemic related. But even. No, not necessarily pandemic related is oftentimes depression can be secondary to anxiety. So someone might be struggling with anxiety for a long time and it becomes a chronic issue. And that really does take a toll on the psyche and our, even our physical wellbeing. It's just, it's depleting and exhausting and so that can lead to secondary depression.

I want to talk a little bit about anxiety specifically because I believe a lot of people don't even know they have anxiety. I am definitely one of those that didn't know I had anxiety until I remember saying to my OBGYN one day, I said, sometimes I feel like I've had a lot of caffeine when I haven't had caffeine. And she said, that's anxiety. And I was like, what, what.

Can.

We talk about that? Like, how do you know if you have anxiety?

Yeah, I mean that's such a good, good point. I'm so glad that you said that because that's so common. It's so common for someone, we call it, I mean it's not actual, like an actual clinical diagnosis or term, but high functioning anxiety where someone would have the different symptoms of anxiety and not really even know that that's what it is. You know, it just feels like I'm like wired up and I feel jittery and I sometimes have a hard time focusing. And I think that there are so many people in that boat. And so, so it's great that we're talking about it. So I think like in the most simple form, the way to answer your question is that it becomes something that's more clinical. And like when I say clinical, it's kind of like treatable, something that we want to maybe get some support for and some tools for to be able to manage when it crosses that line into interfering with our functioning. So that's, you know, and like when you look at the big diagnostic manual, it's called the dsm I don't know if you're familiar with, but it's like this like really big book all full of the different diagnoses. And so to qualify for any one of those, a person, the Symptoms have to interfere with their functioning, you know, like their social, emotional, occupational functioning. And so that's where, like, this. I just feel jittery. And that can just be stress or anxiety. I mean, you know, there is normative anxiety where it's not something diagnosable. We all experience anxiety to some level, but that's where it becomes something more clinical when it's like, I feel jittery and I can't focus and I can't do my work well, and it's interfering with my relationships.

Mm. So I find, because I tend to attract a lot of high level, high functioning, anxious people, I'm imagining that's the new term for it, high functioning anxiety. And that would be me too. And I find when I feel like that, what comes up is the idea of control. Like, if I get this done, I just have to get this done. And this level of feeling, like you have to have control over your schedule and getting stuff done to manage that, like my husband will have said, that would get annoyed with me because I can't, like, shut my head off or go to sleep until it's all done. So can you speak a little into that? Because I do believe a lot of listeners, especially entrepreneurs, listening, this is something that's very real with them. Like, where does that cross the line? I know you said, you mentioned when it starts interfering, but sometimes we don't even know it's interfering.

So how do you know?

Like, this is something I need to manage and look at.

Yeah, yeah. And so you actually just said something that, like, that is interfering. What interferes with our sleep? So that's like, one way. Right? So a lot of people will say this, and nighttime is like the best time for anxiety to pipe up. In my clinical experience, it's like when everything else is calm and we're relaxing and getting ready for bed, the things and the thoughts that we were able to distract ourselves away from become really loud. For a lot of people with anxiety, high functioning anxiety. So that's one way. I mean, there's a lot of different barometers we can look for. But if someone's lying in bed awake at night and they just can't get to sleep, or they fall asleep and then they wake up three hours later and can't get back to sleep because they're worrying and their mind is kind of circling, that can be one manifestation of, like, oh, hold on a second, maybe, like, there's something more going on here. And I said before, like, social, like, so we can kind of break it into broader Categories beyond that, like social if. When it interferes social functioning. So if it interferes with relationships, like you're, you know, being able to be present with your kids or yelling at your kids. Let's say, you know, if someone was experiencing that, that's where we might want to like take a look. Okay, this is really inter, this is bothering me. It's interfering with my relationships or occupational functioning. So like not being able to meet deadlines or procrastinating in a way where it's just interfering and not helpful.

How do you know if you have like, okay, this is a whole other thing. So what, how some people automatically, they say, okay, I've got anxiety, I know I have it. I'm just going to start taking Xanax or a prescription or some people will self medicate themselves with whether it's legalized marijuana or they'll do CBD oil or they'll take their own Ashwagandha supplements. How do you know, like when it's medication or a supplement or it's lifestyle or. You've got to get in and have a psychologist help you.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I honestly feel, and I'm speaking as a psychologist of course, you know, but I would always recommend somebody go the therapy route first. You know, like, it's just, it can be a very empowering experience. And if you seek out somebody who is a specialist in treating anxiety, you'll get a whole bunch of tools, you know, kind of like developing this toolbox with different things that you can pull out to help yourself when it comes up for you. And, and then if that doesn't work and you've tried it, you know, like then maybe exploring other options like medication, you know, whatever else somebody feels comfortable with. But definitely, I mean, I think that there's just so much power in going for your own therapy. Honestly, I'm a big advocate of therapy. But like there's a lot there. There are different therapists who are trained to treat anxiety who come from different modalities, like the cognitive behavioral therapy modality. I don't know if you're familiar with that one that's kind of like old and well researched and the gold standard of treating anxiety and that's not it. Like that's just one modality. But like if you go for cbt, cognitive behavioral therapy, you'll walk away with really concrete things that you can do when it kicks in and greater awareness too.

That's really good to know. So I'm a huge fan of therapy and I think it's great and I also. I like that you said that. Versus, sometimes people go to their general doctor. The general doctor just gives them Xanax all of a sudden.

But.

But they're never really uncovering the root of what's causing it or how to cope with it. So then they're reliant on a medication.

Right.

That's my experience, what I've seen with that.

Right, exactly.

So I like that idea. Okay, talk to me about the differences with teens and adults with anxiety. Like, why is it. Is it sort of the same thing? Is it different? Do we treat it the same?

Yeah, I mean, so the teens that I work with, like, typically are, like, high school and older, sometimes a little bit younger, and it does manifest pretty similarly. I think one of the big differences, and this is more with depression than anxiety, but it can be anxiety, too, is children. Teens tend to manifest it with more irritability. So an adult might be better at masking it. But if your kid is, like, all of a sudden just really lashing out and raging or just irritable with everybody, of course there's other causes for that, too. But that could be something that does differentiate the presentation of a child.

That makes sense because they've got the hormone swings and all that. So that work, and they don't have the tools that we've had as adults to over the years to learn to cope with it.

Right, right, right, exactly. But otherwise, the teens that I work with who have anxiety, like, really do appear pretty similarly to the adults that I work with.

Got it. Okay. Let's talk about the big C right now. Covid.

Yeah.

Because this has rocked the world, and I. My experience of it is a lot of people are living in high amounts of fear and anxiety, and that's leading to depression. So talk to us about that.

Yeah. And I mean, it's so profound, and it's so important, and I think we're all experiencing it to some degree. Whatever age we are, it's hitting us differently. Whatever circumstances we are, it's hitting us differently. But it is so there. And, like, that's actually been, like, the last series of articles I've written for Psychology Today have been touching on this because, you know, it's on my mind, of course. You know, like, just kind of, like, as an observer and working with people, watching the transformation of how people are responding to what's going on. So, you know, kind of, like how when this all. When it first started in March, there was, like, this really, like, heightened anxiety. It was kind of, like this acute anxiety where it Felt like, what's going on here? And the carpet got pulled out and nobody knew what tomorrow would bring. And then I think as things kind of settled down a little bit and we got to know what to expect and we realized this is going to be a really long call and schools were figuring things out, hopefully. And we're figuring out, you know, childcare and work, hopefully. So like that, that transforms a little bit to like more of like a chronic, a chronic stress slash anxiety. Like it's living with long term anxiety, which is different than that acute response, you know. And that comes together with what we were talking about a little bit earlier. That comes along with like those like depression, you know, like, like low feelings and the loss and the grief. Right. Like that's. I wrote a whole article about grief and I'm seeing it so, so much just all around me, you know.

Like, how do you think when you say grief, do you think that this is almost a grief response? Like people are. They're grieving what once was or their, their other comfort. Do you think that is a similar response that we've got going on?

Yeah, I mean, I really do see that in very, very big ways. And I think the grief is there for everybody and it's hitting them differently, you know. So the teens that I work with, like, there was so much grief as a school year ended. And like the seniors that I work with, like who didn't have a graduation or a prom or, or senior trips and all their friends are going away to college and they don't know when they're gonna see them again. Like that's really heavy stuff, you know, and like that's, that's. There's grief right there. But like, you know, as an adult, it's dealing with a lot like what you were just saying, the loss of normalcy, like what happened to my life, what's going on here. Like all the, all the comforts and my structure and my. All the things that I kind of like build into my life to keep me going and deal with setbacks. Most of them are just not available for me right now. So. So there's a lot of grief in the normalcy. And then on top of that, like job loss and you know, death and I mean there's just so much.

Yeah, then I would imagine you couple it with this easy access to media, social media, traditional media, all of that. I can't imagine you need people. We're getting like 15 hours a day of that types of training going into our subconscious.

Totally. Yes. So it's like, that's, like, a number one recommendation that I'll make to people who are watching the news a lot or who are on social media a lot is to really put strong boundaries around how much you're taking in and how much you're exposing yourself to, because that will affect you. Like, that will. There's, like, some of my favorite. I have a lot of favorite studies, but some of my favorite studies on trauma are that we can. We can develop PTSD just from watching something traumatic. Like, they did studies after the Twin Towers fell, and they found that. Researchers found that the more someone watched that clip of the towers coming down, the more likely they were to develop mental health disorders such as PTSD and depression. And that is just. And even if they lived in across the world, like, it wasn't. Didn't matter.

Powerful, because that makes you really have to be so aware of what you're taking in, because whether you're actually experiencing it or just watching it and hearing it, it sounds like your body is reacting the same.

Yes, Right. You're. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's having, like, the same sort of, like, response, and then the impact that it has on you in terms of thinking about it a lot or, you know, dreaming about it or having, like, a, you know, like, kind of a flashback during the day of something really scary that we saw. So today with watching the news about, you know, what's happening around the world with COVID and, you know, all the scary stuff, like, that's gonna impact mental health. So, you know, and so it's like finding the sweet spot between not burying our heads under the sand if it feels like a value to you to be informed and know what's going on in the world, but then, like, not overexposing either, and then definitely being careful about what we're exposing our kids to, for sure.

So you know what I'm noticing? Just amongst people I know or people I follow, people in my life, I'm watching two extremes. I haven't seen a middle ground. I see either people that are completely staying in their bubble, and they get this, and they're like, I'm not taking it news. I'm not doing any of this. And then I see people. They are completely living it on either side. Like, they could be the person that is, you know, mad at everyone for not wearing masks and looking at the death toll, or they could be the person that's, like, thinks masks is stupid, and then they're really going on. But either of those two categories are in that same group. Of they're almost obsessing over it and it's affecting their work, their life, their everything else.

Right.

So for those people, my first question is how do we help them interrupt it? Because they're so in it. Whether either side, how. That's my first question. How do we help them interrupt it? Like, what are that person listening? What are some tangible things that they can do right now? And then the other extreme, how does that person not attack the other group? How do they keep, what do they do to help facilitate this? Because this is a big problem I see happening.

Yeah, yeah. And I know, I see it too. I know exactly what you're talking about. And so I mean, I really think that there's a lot of personal responsibility going on here. Like that we all need to take our own responsibility. And like the flip of that, the flip of that word is finding our power, right? So where's my power in all of this? And also like what is happening for me right now? So like doing a check in. Am I, am I happy? Am I stressed? Am I anxious? Am I, is what I'm doing working for me? You know, and if the answer is no, then it's like, okay, well what, what am I doing that's contributing to this and where can I find my power? Right? So like the two, those two opposite polarized camps or maybe like three different kind of camps over there. I really think that as adults we need to take our own responsibility, do some self reflection. So carve out some time. Looking for some practical advice here. Carve out some time and just do a check in. My favorite check in is kind of like a triangle check in where we check in about our thoughts. Where are my thoughts right now? Where are my feelings right now? How am I feeling and how's my body feeling?

Right, where are my thoughts, where are my feelings? And what's my body feeling?

And how's my body feeling? So it's kind of like we're coming at self awareness from those three angles. And it's actually really amazing how many of us don't even spend any time with ourselves in this kind of way. And then we get into these loops and these spirals and we're like writing hateful things on social media and you know, like kind of not feeling happy and it's interfering with functioning. So it's just press pause and like, just like kind of a check in. Like, where are my thoughts, how's my body feeling? And what am I feeling? You know, like what feelings am I having? And if it's if there's something off kilter, then it's taking a step back and it's okay, well, what can I do differently here? You know, am I, am I getting really sucked into this and I, am I spending too much time, you know, like debating people and getting into it?

Yeah, I love that personal responsibility piece because I think it's very easy to get into victim, into what's, what's happening to us. And then there's also, it's very, also very easy to go, well, there's nothing I can do about it. But what you can do about it. Yeah, none of us are going to actually like cure the virus or outsmart it. But what we can do is focus what, what we're taking in and what our intentions are with things. So what you just said that about thoughts, feelings and what's my body feeling. I love that. I think what I've been doing a lot of is asking myself, what's my intention? So like before I go scroll social media, like, what's my intention for scrolling social media right now? Is it just to like kill boredom? Because that's not gonna do that. That's gonna put me down a rabbit hole of feeling or am I actually like logging on to post something that's gonna help people? Or like that question helps me get back into, check into thoughts, feeling and my body.

That's amazing. And I love that, I love that like what's my intention here? And maybe like the flip of that question could be, is there something I'm trying to avoid by doing this? Because oftentimes and like, and I see this in my own life and also with like in my co clinical work. Well, like go the social media route if we're trying to avoid something uncomfortable inside of us, like maybe I'm feeling really anxious and so pick up the phone, it's an easy thing to do and scroll or get into something with someone. So what's my intention? And am I avoiding some uncomfortable sensation inside of me that's making me pick up or is this like. No, I actually like, it's time for social media and I want to check in and see how things are going and I'm going to put a limit on it. And this feels nice and relaxing. That's different.

Yeah, yeah. And no rabbit holes of fighting with people in comment threads because last I checked, no one ever changes someone's mind in a comment thread. Does not work that way. Okay, so now I have another question because this is what's coming up for me. So I have found over the years that a big way out of anxiety and depression is human connection, connecting with others. That's with your therapist, with a friend, with your spouse. Like, that connection takes you outside of yourself sometimes. And it, like, it's a. It helps navigate those. Right now there's a lot of limitations on connection, especially for teens. Like, camps are closed schools, so people do turn to the computer for that. So what are some healthy ways that we could do that? Because connection is so important.

And I agree with you completely. You know, like, that's something that, like, I, you know, when someone's coming in and they're not feeling good or their mood is taking a dip or they're feeling more anxious, like, I always kind of do a little bit of a, like a, like check in. Like, and that's one of the questions. Like, are you seeing people? Are you talking to people? Because that is so important. And it is so important for teenagers. Right? It's important for us always, but it's more important when they're teens. And so this is really difficult for them because the natural ways that they connect and see their peers is just. It's not there. Like, you know, like school and camp and all the things that you were talking about. So how. I mean, I guess the question was, how do we get that right now? Yeah.

Like, what's an appropriate way to get that without. Because, like, I'll own it. My teenage daughter, like, I was guilty of letting her be on the computer or phone too much. And that goes down some really bad rabbit holes because then she's falling into the fear and anxiety like adults do.

Yeah.

What's a healthy way to let people connect versus, like an unhealthy. Because I think we actually, I think a lot of us need instruction. Like, what is the right way to navigate it for us and also our. To our teens, how do we do that?

Yeah. Yeah. And so I think, like, you know, I like what you said before, like, that intention, like an intention goes beyond why am I doing this? It's more like, well, how long am I going to spend doing this? So finding a balance, you know, And I think that I was actually just reading an interesting study today and like, a little research digest that. I get that said, it's not phone use that's linked to anxiety and depression and increases. It's phone addiction. So when we're on it for too much and becomes excessive, that's when it gets detrimental to our mental health, you know, so finding a balance, like, it's not bad all the time. You know, but finding a little bit of a balance. Why am I doing this? What is this serving me? Am I using this to connect with my friends in a healthy way? I think that that's important right now. That really is important, you know, for. Especially for all of us. For teens especially, like to kind of. They're using a lot of social media and to contact with each other, you know, talk with each other, text with each other, FaceTime with each other. I think that's good. But again, like, not letting it be too excessive. And I think that this idea of, like, connection is important with the people close to us and the people that we know. But I think it goes beyond that. Like, I think there's something really powerful about going for a walk outside and just like, smiling at people you don't know.

Yeah.

You know, like, you're wearing your mask, but you can tell. You can still see if someone's smiling at you by their eyes and just connecting with people in that way as well. Like, there's, you know, there's more to humanity than just the people that I have in my. My inner circle. Yeah.

I will share and I'll. I'm kind of careful how I share this because I know I don't want to ever embarrass my daughter, ever mad at me later. But there was just as any mother of a teen can probably relate, we had an issue and I. We taken her electronics for a few weeks. And I will tell you that my daughter off electronics is a new child. Like, watching her taking the phone and having her. As much as she was fighting me initially, going for walks with me, walking the dog, like doing. She just went horseback riding, like just doing actual stuff versus being on the phone. She's a happy teenager again.

Wow. That's incredible.

So I'm going to encourage any parent listening to really pay attention to that because a lot of times we're thinking, wow, this mood, everything going on, and a lot of it is that addiction.

Yeah. Yeah, right. And it's so easy to fall into that now because there's very little else to do, you know. So I think in terms of that parenting piece, if you're noticing that your teen is spending too much time on the phone or is seeming sullen or withdrawn, and you kind of take a step back and you notice that they are spending so much time on their phone, it's sitting down with them and having heart to heart, you know, like, even so it's not a blaming or, you know, you're spending too much time on the phone. And this is bad for you, but it's more of like this generalized thing. Like, this is like what science shows us. It's not healthy for us.

You know what's interesting? When we took her phone, because there wasn't a reason we took it, but when we took her phone, I found my mind going to, what's she going to do? Like, literally, like, if I'm not letting her have TV or phone or what is she going to do? Because that's how our adult minds are trained now, like, to never be bored. Right, right. And I. It, like, took a lot in me to be like, well, here's a journal and a pen and here's the ukulele.

And it's like. And.

But how creative she got. Like, I was actually amazed at the creativity that came out of her. So it's not our job, I think, to solve boredom for kids.

No, no. Actually, boredom is a really, really healthy thing for them. Because it gets. Talk about that, though.

Because I thought, you know, I was in that trap of I have to keep her not bored.

No, yeah. No, I think it's like the boredom is good for them. Like, taking a step back, you know, being available as a parent, but especially as they get older, taking a little bit of a step back so they know that you're available and you're dropping little nuggets like, hey, I'm here for you. Or. And letting them figure things out that they can is so healthy for them. It helps them build resiliency and it helps them develop this script about themselves. Like, I can do hard things. I can figure this out. I can be bored and look at what. I can figure out what to do. I think it's great. And I think that's so great that you provided her with the journal.

She literally, her first reaction was, I don't like to write or read. It's like, okay, well, here's a pen and a journal. And. But she is very. She loves music, but she's gotten so into, you know, making TikToks versus, like, she wrote a song on our ukulele. It's like, taught her. And I was like, I was so impressed. And I'm thinking I would have never said, go write a song. But it's like, so I think having walked through that, it was really eye opening for me that we as kids didn't have all those things, so. And we figured out a way so we can be open to that. But it's our need almost as adults to not be bored that we think that kids have to be entertained to 24 7, for sure.

And I think it's also like, this. Fix it. Part of our parenting brain that is uncomfortable seeing our child uncomfortable. So it's like that kicks in. It's like, okay, let me help you figure this out and try this and try that. So that's a part of it, too. And kids. And I know that this is kind of like a cliche thing, but it's so true. And I see it over and over and over again. Like, they're so resilient kids and teens. And, like, I am seeing some of the teenagers that I work with do, like, amazing things, like open Etsy shops and redecorate their rooms and, like, really amazing things that they're discovering about themselves and that they're doing all on their own. Yeah.

Wow. Speaking of that, do you have any feelings on social media, specifically with kids and our teenagers?

Yeah. You mean like, just thoughts on.

Yeah, like, thoughts on. Like, should they be on it, not be on it? Is it dangerous? Is it. I'm just. I'm curious your thoughts as a psychologist for teenagers and social media.

I know it's such a. I mean, it's such a slippery slope. Right? So if we lived in a vacuum, like, I think that probably a lot of us psychologists or not psychologists would agree, like, it's not. It's not cool. Great for your mental health. You know, like, just, like, watching how the kids that are growing up today are so aware of what their peers are doing and what they're being invited to and not invited to. And people. You know, cyber bullying is a very real thing. So there's a lot of negatives that come along with it. However, we're not living in a vacuum, and it's available and all their friends are on it. And so it's hard to have, like, the one. You know, you don't want your. This is my personal belief. You don't want your kid to be the one kid who doesn't have a phone, who can't connect with friends, and then is missing out on things because of that, you know, So I really. I think that maybe, like, the answer is, you know, when they get older and they're responsible and they're more mature, allowing them some form of social media access with a phone or whatever, but having limits. And I think a lot of times parents don't realize their power in this. Like, they're giving them the phone, they're paying for the phone. They can set limits and do it in a really gentle, kind way, but Giving them the phone doesn't give them free access to social media all the time.

And I'll say as a parent who's learning the trickery of teenagers, that even when we give them permission on some things, they can get sneaky on other things. Just like we as kids got sneaky on things even without that. And the more parents I've been talking to with teenagers story after story. So like, just because we've told them no to something doesn't mean they're not doing it right.

Exactly. And so I think like some of those boundaries that we set with them are very concrete. Like I'm taking your phone at night, it's not charging it in your room at night. You know, things like that. Or there are some apps, I can't think of them offhand right now that you could install Bark.

I heard about Bark. Yeah, yeah, I can install. And it knows if anything they've done exactly right.

And like letting them know in a very respectful conversation. I'm going to be doing phone checks, just so you know, like, here's your phone. Have fun with it. Use it appropriately. But as your parent and someone who needs to keep you safe. And I know that there's a lot out there that's unsafe with social media. We're going to be checking in on you every so often. And you know, not because I don't trust you or not, you know, like, be careful, like not to frame it like that. But this is something that we just feel we need to do to be responsible parents.

Be warned, because I'm walking through this. I've heard like these crazy stories now. Not only that I'm seeing teen after teen, what they're, what they're doing. And as much as I've dove into this research now where teens will download apps and then delete them at night like so their parents won't see. And then also this idea of burner phones, have you seen this where they parents are taking phones. But kids, a kid could walk into Target and buy a phone. Like you could buy a phone that has limited you to any age could do it. So you could have your 14 year old go into Target, buy a phone that has like limited. And they're like, they hide these from their parents at night. So there's a lot of sneakiness going around.

Yeah. Wow. I haven't actually seen that in my practice yet, but thank you for telling me. I'm hearing it from my friends, but I will. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I've become an FBI. FBI agent in my own home. Detective here.

Yeah, yeah. And I think though, that's why like that conversation and like a respectful conversation becomes important and these things can happen even if that's happening too, you know. But like to, you know, I've seen like kids where, whose parents have framed it as like, well, we don't trust you and we don't end like those kids who wouldn't otherwise sneak around get a little bit sneakier because they feel like, okay, well my parent doesn't trust me.

So, ah, so what's the right way to handle that? That's a great point. So how do you say that without saying I don't trust you?

Yeah, yeah. And so I would, I would make it about the behavior and not about you. Like I don't trust you, but like this thing that you did, it's making me feel worried and concerned that you're not being honest with me. And we value honesty, right? Something like that. So it's never about. You're not. Because I think kids will hear, and I know parents don't mean it this way, but they'll hear the statement, I just can't trust you. And then they'll, they'll internalize it and personalize it and feel like, okay, I guess I'm just, you know, not trustworthy and I'm not a good kid. And so those kids sometimes will sneak around even more. Then it becomes like this vicious cycle. And so how do we fix that?

Because I think a lot of parents do actually say, I don't trust this behavior is making, but kids will still hear the other thing. So what do we there?

Yeah, and I think like it's how it's ongoing conversations. It's not just one conversation. It's, you know, like it's building up that relationship and having quality time with each other or even doing weekly check ins with each other. Like, how's life? How are you doing? How's that phone going? So we're talking with them not just about the issues that come up, but we're building the relationship, you know, outside of those issues so that when things do come up, we have more of a solid ground to come back to. And so that I think that piece is important, like just kind of like this, this reminder to them that they know that we're here, you know, obviously in an age appropriate way. Because teens don't want their, you know, don't want or need their parents as much as younger ones do. But just that is important, you know, not shying away from the hard conversations. You know, I think sometimes I see this, like, with parents being afraid to confront their kids with something that's going on. And so, like, it'll go through me, the therapist, and I'll be like to do. Tell them that, you know, that, you know. And I always have them have that conversation, which is usually pretty liberating for both parent and child, you know, to be able to talk about the hard thing in a way that's not accusatory and not, you know, blaming. But. Yeah, I mean, I think it's. It's a complex issue. It really is, you know, like this. The phone issue and sneaking around, I think, is just like one piece of the pie. So we don't only want to focus on that piece. Even if something, you know, we want to kind of focus on all the other pieces. And that will help with that piece.

Okay, how do we. I have another big question. This is a little bit of a pivot here, but this is coming up a lot with everyone wearing masks right now, because that's. In most states. It's the law right now. It's. So whether somebody believes that masks are the right thing or the wrong thing, that's not the point of my question right now. My question is with not seeing anyone's experience. Expression anymore, how does that affect people?

Yeah.

And mental health and what do we do there?

I think it's hard. And honestly, like, I haven't. That's something that hasn't come up a lot with the people that I work with, because where I'm in Oregon right now, and everybody's like, pretty much staying to themselves still. So there. I don't know. I know it varies state by state, so people are wearing masks when they go out, but it's mostly adults. A lot of kids are, like, still really staying home. And the ones that seeing people, maybe you're seeing, like, one or two friends. And I don't. I don't know if they're wearing masks, but I definitely hear the issue. I mean, that's. You know, we were talking about loss before. That's a loss, right? Like, the loss of, like, really feeling connected to the people that we see when we go outside and not being able to see their faces. And that does, you know, that does affect us, I think. Like I said this before, something that I do that helps me is, like, I just, you know, I notice people's eyes. So I'm shopping in Trader Joe's, and, you know, you can still, like, you can still see a smile through the eyes, and you can still connect with people that way. And so it's, you know, it's like holding this balance. Like, it's not whitewashing the sadness of it. Acknowledging the sadness of it and, like, that word. And. And how can we kind of create some perspective? How can we still tap into that connection?

Yeah. I'm waiting for somebody to. To develop, like, see through clear mass, because I feel like that would make a big difference.

Yeah, and they have. I've seen, like, some people have, like, the face shields, like, not. Have you seen the face shield?

Yeah, yeah. Those don't work as well, so I don't know, but I just. I thought if you could just see people's expressions, it would not. Because right now what happens. It happens to me. I go out, I see all these people on mask. It, like, makes it feel like there's a war, there's fear.

Yeah.

And I think smiles.

Yeah, yeah, totally, totally, totally. And I get that, too. I mean, like, I used to love going grocery shopping by myself, you know, as a mom with two small kids, like, it was a treat. Now the groceries are. And now it feels. It's a different experience, but I think if we can know. So again, it's like noticing the thoughts. Oh, gosh, my mind is going there. And, like, this feels hard and uncomfortable. Okay, let me hold that. And also, what else? You know, like. And also, like, we're still out here. We're okay. We'll get through this. This will pass. You know, so to kind of, like, notice that thinking and then maybe create some other kind of thinking, too, that helps us rebound. Yeah. All right.

This is super helpful. So I want to. I want to circle around to just some actual, like, things that people can do. And on two specific things. Like, let's start with. Since we're talking about teenagers right now, if you are a parent, what do you recommend if you were to give, like, a few things for a parent to make sure they're asking or doing to help facilitate and navigate this with their teens? What would you suggest?

I would really suggest just checking. Check. Making a point and checking in with your teen every so often, and you can let them know to expect that so they don't think, like, what's going on with mom or dad. But you can say, like, you know, I know we're all going through a lot, and this is hitting us all differently. And maybe we're not, you know, And. And some families maybe are talking about. And some families not as much, but if you're not talking about it with them, say, like, I want to start talking about this more with you. You know, let's do weekly check ins. Like let's have tea, like create some ritual around it. Right? Like at the end of the day, like let's just check in. I want to hear how life is for you right now. And so it's practicing curiosity about how they're doing in a really open ended way where you don't have an agenda. See, like that's I think where a lot of parents get tripped, get tripped up a little bit or it gets a little tricky where we kind of ask the question, but then our teen or child will respond and then we want to fix it maybe. Or we have some like really wise answer that we want to give them to help. We think it'll help, you know, coach them. But just the listening. The listening is the most powerful thing we can give our kids, especially when they're under distress. Like I see it over and over and over again, just hearing them reflecting back. Oh, wow. So I hear that you're feeling really sad or you really miss your friends.

Dang lei. I am so guilty of this. I'm so guilty of asking the question and then wanting to fix.

Yeah. And it's not just you, right? So any parent hearing this, I don't want want you to judge your parenting style because this is so typical. We all do it. We all do it because we love our kids and we want to fix it for them. And we do have more life experience that we can offer them. So it's not coming from a bad place. But then it does really quiet them. Like it kind of like, you know, they're like, okay, I guess like mom doesn't really want to hear me, you know, like that's what I hear from the other side.

So how do we stop ourselves from doing that? Is it just like more active listening? Is it asking more questions? Okay, yes.

Yeah. Open ended questions and active listening.

Right.

Like pairing the two. So how, you know, how's life for you? How are you feeling about quarantine if you're, you know, ourselves. Social distancing or missing that big trip you were supposed to do this summer? I'm like, I've been thinking about it. Can we talk about it? And then if they, you know what, whatever they say, just follow that. You know, don't have your own agenda where you want to take the conversation, but follow what they're putting out there. Oh, wow. So it sounds like that was really hard for you. Is there more you want to tell me about this? You know, like. So however that would sound for you with your child. But that sort of questioning.

I like that. So. And then how much should parents be? Because especially with teens, they're in this age of wanting more privacy. So where is there a boundary cross there? So, like, if we want to know what's going on and, like, but they also want to be in their rooms, not talking to, like, how do. What's the proper balance there?

Yeah, yeah. And you can. So I think, like, it's so powerful to just put those things on the table with them. Like, if I say something that you don't appreciate, just tell me. And, like, I want to respect your privacy. You know, I think sometimes we just don't talk about the underlying process behind the. Behind our intention or the conversation. And then our teens misinterpret what we're doing as, like, mom's so nosy when that's not it at all. So just, like, saying that up front, like, I don't. You know, this. I'm not. This isn't me trying to be nosy or wanting to. This is me loving you and caring about you. And, like, this is hard for me too. And I want to hear about what this is like for you. So let me know if you're not, you know, and I will. And then you respect that. Right. Like, if they say, I don't want to talk about this, and you say, sure, you know, just know that I'm here for you if you do.

Okay. Now, us as adults, because teens are watching us too. How do we navigate our own anxieties? You gave us some tips, but I want to kind of summarize that back up. So we've got takeaways, like, what are some things that we should be doing right now to manage our fear, our anxiety?

Yeah. I mean, and I think that there's so much that typically grounds us that's not available right now. So some of this, like, might sound simplistic, but it's amazing how during this time, a lot of us have been. Have let go of some of these simple ideas because we're working from home and means we don't have to wake up as early and we can go to bed later. Like, things are really thrown off. So I would just say, like, in its very most basic way, like, taking a step back from your life and, like, really getting yourself back in some sort of, like, some really consistent structure and routine. Watching your sleep. Right. So another triangle that I really like is the one of, like, the three things that we really need to keep us mentally well. And that's eating well, eating nutritious food and making sure that we're eating enough, sleeping well. So really like monitoring that sleep and exercise. Right. So ok, like those three things are always important and when we're all undergoing chronic stress, they become even more important. So, so helpful.

This is so good today. Gosh, you've answered so much for me. I'm just, I'm like, what did I miss? What did I miss while I've got you here? This is so good. Where can you. They do you share these types of tips on social media? Like, do you keep this going? Like, where can people find you and follow you?

Yeah, so the best, the best place for people to find me right now is Instagram.

Okay.

Instagram account is at drleacatz.

Okay. I'm following her now. You all too. So you go to mine, you can, if you go to Natalie Jill Fit, you can look up Dr. Aleya on mine. You'll be able to find her easily.

Thank you. Yeah, so I'm there every day. I post different helpful tips about how to get through Covid and just beyond that, anxiety management. We didn't talk a lot about mindfulness today, but that's another big thing that I'm a huge believer in and I have training in and I practice a lot from a mindfulness based approach so that you'll find that on my Instagram as well.

That's amazing. Can you give us one, like, just kind of an example of that? Because now you've piqued interest on that. Like when you say mindfulness, like, give us what is something that relates to that.

Yeah, sure. So mindfulness means that the capacity to be present for whatever is unfolding for you in the moment in a really compassionate way. Like, that's kind of mindfulness in a nutshell. It's a beautiful statement and it's complex in terms of how we practice that. So there's many ways of practicing mindfulness meditation. You know, practicing a little form of meditation every day is one way of getting there where we can just notice one of our senses to bring our attention back to as our mind wanders. Let's say you're breathing, so you just kind of like pay attention to your breathing, the in and out, not changing your breath in any way. And then you notice your mind wandering and then you bring your attention back to your breath and you do that over and over again. And so like this really creates the quality of being able to be with yourself, with whatever's unfolding. And it's. Yeah, it's a Beautiful.

I have a random question about that because I totally practice that myself. And I notice when I. Any moms listening can probably relate to this. I'll say to my daughter something like that, and she'll take. Roll her eyes at me, like, it's cheesy.

Yeah. Yeah.

How do we manage that?

Yeah. And so I. Yeah, I get you with that too, like, in my own home. But I think that. And what I found is that the best way to impart those, like, really beautiful mindfulness messages is to practice it yourself. Like, no, you know, like, don't give advice. You know, and we're all. We all kind of. We, like, found something amazing. We might, like, want to share it with everybody. We want to. All our. Our whole family to practice it, but it's really not doing that because people don't usually like unsolicited advice. Especially, like, the mindfulness kind. People are just like, okay, like, that's not for me. And like.

Like when someone says, take a deep breath and calm down.

Right. No, it's, like, not what I need to hear right now. But yeah. So I think that, like, if your kids and, like, practice in a. In a place where she sees you, you know, like, not in a way where like, oh, look at what I'm doing. But it's more like, oh, no, I'm just gonna go meditate, like, outside for five minutes. You know, she'll notice that. She'll see that I like that. Yeah. Okay.

So people can find you on Instagram. Dr. Leah Katz. And then. And that's Leah L E A H. Cats will put it also in the show notes. And then website.

Do you have my. Yeah, My website is Dr. Leia Katz dot com.

Terrific. Thank you so much for today. This was.

Thank you. This was so great.

Thank you for taking the time out of your day to listen in. At least my guest today. If you found this episode valuable, please share it with friends and on social media. I don't advertise this show, so I rely on word of mouth and reviews to get it out in the world. The biggest thank you that you can give me is leaving me a review. And a nice one, I hope, by the way, this is how others find these episodes. If you do leave me a review, be sure to Message me@supportataliejofitness.com with a screenshot of your review, because I would love to send you a free digital download of my DSR journal as a thank you. And please don't forget to connect with me on social media. Natalie Jill, Fit on Instagram and Facebook.