Bone Health, Pain Management, and Lymphatic Drainage Using Vibration Training with Caroline Pearce

Today on Midlife Conversations, we're going to be talking all kinds of fun things. We're talking bone density, we're talking hormone disruption and how to keep that going, strength training, visceral fat, all of these things that we need to navigate in midlife. I've got Carolyn Pierce on today and she's a former international athlete and she's a, was, did bobsled and track and field. Pretty cool. Pretty cool. But she's also a power plate master trainer and she's really, really versed on these topics today. So I want to bring her on because one of the age optimizing, as I call it, I don't know, I don't love the word biohacking, but I love saying age optimizing. One of the age optimizing tools that I've used for years is a power plate, which some of you have seen these in the gym. It's like a vibrating plate. It actually feels really good to stretch on it, work out on it. Even just a sit your butt on it. It feels really good. I love it. I've used it in recovery with my back and all types of things. I now have one in my house and I wanted to go a lot deeper with somebody who's an expert here to explain not just why it feels but why it's doing these great things for us. So thank you so much for being here today.

No, thank you so much, Natalie, and happy to join you all. Thank you for having me.

So I want to back up a minute because bob sledding, you don't hear that much very often. How did you get into that?

I know it's, it's funny. I was a track and field athlete for years, since I was so as a kid and competing for Great Britain in the heptathlon, which is the seven track and field events. And they recruit a lot of track athletes into bobsled and, and in the UK where I'm from, you recognize the accent? We don't have a lot of ice, but we have a university, Bath University, that has a dedicated ice track, so a bobsled ice track where you can practice the push. And I got recruited to come down and do you want to try out, see how it goes? And a month later I was in Calgary in Canada pushing bobsleds for Great Britain. So it was quite a bit of a whirlwind, which I only did for a season as part of the team, sort of like the, the alternate if you like, for, for the Great Britain team. But my, the majority of my Career was, was athletics, track and field. But people always find the bobsled stuff a lot more interesting.

Well, it's not something we normally hear, you know, you don't hear a lot of that.

I know hustling down a track at 80 miles an hour, five GS of force.

It's a. I mean it looks amazing. I just don't, can't say I've ever met a bobsledder. So I think that's super cool. How did you get involved in power plate? Was that something you were using in your training? Like how did you come across that? Where did this become part of what you do?

It was very organic. So I was in the middle of studying sports science, physiology and nutrition as part of my undergraduate and my postgraduate master's degree and I got injured, as a lot of athletes do. And what I had was bone on bone in my left knee. So you don't. The cartilage doesn't have any pain receptors. So it's only when that cartilage wears thin and the bone hits the bone you start realizing you have pain. Yeah, and I was doing, you know, as you physiotherapy, all the different rehab, but I had severe muscle wastage in my adductor, my inner thigh and around the knee where just consciously my body was like protecting that area and not activating the muscles. And at the time I was studying my master's degree at university and a former colleague who I'd worked with in the fitness industry said, have you tried vibration training? Whole body vibration training. And obviously 20 years ago this was my answer was, what's that? No, I don't know anything about that. So brought me along to the Harrod store in the UK where they had a big demonstration model and they were selling the machines. And what I did is I utilized the vibration to replicate all my rehabilitation exercises. So all the single leg balances and the step up to balance and the vibration and I could talk more about the science, but it basically creates these reflex contractions in your muscles. So automatic contractions in the muscles and a much greater number of contractions than you'd get with conventional movement. So it's essentially just activating the muscles that my brain was no longer consciously able to strengthen.

So, okay, this is clicking for me because I didn't really understand this before. So if you have an injury. So like take for example, I have no disc between L5S1 in my lower back and a lot of people listening have degeneration in lower back. So but my. So I'VE really worked hard to in my training, take that lower area out of my, the equation. So like I work to train my core and my glutes because that disc is no longer protecting me and I didn't understand why the vibration felt so good on it or it makes me stronger doing that. So if I hear you correctly, it's activating the areas that I'm no longer able to activate on my own. Is that.

Yeah, well, yeah, you're right. There's several reasons. So one is whenever you have any joint problems, knee, back, whatever it might be, the best thing you can do is strengthen the muscles around it and get those muscles active around it because then they will activate and take the pressure off the joint. So in your case, and in my case with my knee, the vibrations causing a real intense strengthening around that area that essentially protects it because the muscles activate. But secondly, the power plate, the whole body vibration massively increases our blood flow and our circulation. So you're getting all the good nutrients and oxygen to the muscles. That just helps with recovery and repair as well. And then also when you get a rapid increase in blood circulation, the knock on effect is an increase in lymphatic flow. And that flushes toxins out, it flushes out all the, you know, the crap from our, our body and helps to detoxify as well. Not only that, when it comes to your joints, the power plate platform moves in three different directions. So when you, it's funny when you look at one of these machines in the gym from a distance and it's turned on to the naked eye, you can't really see much happening because the movement is tiny. It's between 1 and 2 millimeters depending on the setting. But because it's moving so rapidly up and down, we can move, it moves up and down between 30 and times per second. So just think about that. We can't even crack that fast. So that's causing these rapid simultaneous muscle contractions at the same speed. Because it's moving up and down so quickly, up and down, you naturally get front and back and side to side movement. So it's a three dimensional movement. Now that means your body has to stabilize against that. So when you stand on a power plate, the first thing you think is, oh, I gotta, I gotta stabilize a little bit. If I stand on one leg or I sit in a core crunch, whatever the exercises you're doing, all of these stabilizers are one, being switched on automatically, reflex contractions, secondly, being challenged to activate far greater than they could ordinarily. Like Typically, even as an athlete, you can only consciously recruit a certain percentage of muscle fibers, and that will depend on your ability, your how well trained you are, and also what exercise you're doing. But power plates causing a much higher number of these muscle fibers, including all the stabilizers to switch on. And that is really protective for our joints. And that means we're going to gain greater muscle strength as well because there's more muscles doing more things for us. So.

Okay, I've got a lot of questions here. I want to unwind, rewind this. So let's just say someone's listening and they have an injury or they have one of the things like their knee, their elbow, their lower back, whatever it is. And maybe they're not an avid workout person.

Yeah.

Is just sitting or standing on the plate helping anything?

So there's two ways you can use it. We typically say just you need to do a little bit more than just stand on it with your leg straight. If you just stand with your leg straight, that vibration roots itself through the body to your head. Not doing any harm, just you feel the vibration in your head. Feels good. It feels good. It feels good, yeah. Essentially what you need to do is create a athletic ready position. So in other words, hold a squat, hold a lunge, hold a push up, or even work through the dynamic movement. So anything you do on the ground, you go to the gym or you're in your home on a yoga mat, anything you would do, whether you're following a workout video or just doing your own thing, if you do those movements with vibration, you're upgrading everything you get from that, from muscle activation that I mentioned, from increased stability, increased blood flow, hormones, which we can exploring in great depth as well. So that's the active use of Power plate. Getting into an athletic ready position and letting the vibration do more for you than you can consciously do. But we can also use it passively. So Power plate is an incredible tool for massage and recovery. So when I say how to massage on it, you're essentially laying your limb, you know, the, any sort of soft tissue, whether it's the hamstring, the tricep, the quads, the butt, the lower back, you're placing it against the vibration platform. You'd usually use the higher settings for this. And that's just create, that's maximizing that blood flow and that lymph flow and essentially creating like that myofascial release, which is getting rid of the tight sticky knots in the muscle as if you're doing like a rather large self Massage. And one of the huge benefits of that as well is pain reduction. So I know as we get older, the aches and pains in our joints, our lower back, and I'm not talking here about an acute pain like you've suddenly injured yourself and you've got tons of inflammation. I'm talking about those daily aches and pains. After we've been talking, I'll stand up from this chair and my hips will probably need a minute to just ease out a little bit, because from being an athlete, I've got sort of tightness in my hips, my hip flexors. So what power plate does is it's essentially. This is the best way I'm going to describe it. If you hit your elbow really hard on the table or the edge of a chair, what's the first thing you do other say ouch.

I mean, you. You grab it and grab it and rub it. You rub it. Right.

So you're creating a mechanical action. Now, that mechanical action stimulates blood flow to the site of pain, and it helps increase that blood flow and lymph flow. It removes the chemical signals of pain, and that starts to feel a bit easier. So if you're using Power plate, think of it, a large mechanical action, that platform vibration, which is creating this large mechanical action to the body, which stimulates a massive blood circulation or blood flow around the body, which helps on a daily basis remove the chemical signals of pain. So a lot of people that we work with that might suffer Parkinson's, Mississippi, muscle aches and pains, arthritis, all of those things just find that their pain level is much reduced when they're regularly using vibration. And that could be using it actively or it could use it passively just for recovery and accelerating recovery. We have athletes using it to speed recovery so they can get back on the court, on the pitch the next day in the gym. And then we have people that just day to day, want to be able to recover faster, feel better, be able to train again, or just do their daily activities more regularly without pain. So there's lots of benefits.

Yeah. So I want to. I'm going to ask you about myofascial release and lymph drainage and all that, because that's new to a lot of listeners. And I want to talk about that. But before I do that really quick, when you're talking about holding an active stance or doing a workout on there, and is there a specific amount of time you need to do it to get the benefit? Do you do your whole workout on it? Do you do some. Is it like daily, like help us understand like how frequently you need to be on something like this.

Yeah, good question. So typically a power plate workout can be anywhere from 10 minutes to 30 minutes. You wouldn't typically work longer than 30 minutes. It's not like you've got to get your head around spending an hour in the gym. No, you don't need that amount of time. That's why again, it's so beneficial. It really reduces the workout time. And the reason being what I talked about, your muscles are working so much faster, they're going to fatigue a lot quicker. So the workout times a lot shorter as well. So you're getting, it's like more bang for your buck. You get a lot more effect in a shorter period of time. Not only that, the way that your muscles are contracting so fast is a bit of a, what we call a neurological response. So your body detects the vibration when you're standing in your position. It sends a message through your central nervous system back to that muscle to contract 30 to 40 times per second, whatever you're setting it. So because that's so. Because that's so rapid, you're also requiring your nervous, your neural system to respond quickly as well, so you can get quite neurally fatigued. Now what that looks like, especially when you haven't used vibration before, is just a bit of a feeling, just a little bit of a. But you adapt to that as well, just like your muscles adapt. So you become neurologically more efficient also. So that's the reason the workout times are so short, because you are fatiguing your system a lot faster. But interestingly, at the same time, you're also recovering yourself faster as well, because that increased blood flow and lymph flow is helping the body to recover. So protocol, you could get on in the morning and do five minutes stretching, whatever you need to do. A couple of exercises awakens your mind, your body, everything that vibration does. But if you're doing a full workout on it, like a complete circuit training workout, from your squats to your lunges to your core to your stretches, 30 minutes is a really good amount of time. You can use power plate. Yeah, you can use power plate daily for stretching and massage because that's like I say, the more, the more passive use. If you're using it for an actual workout, think of it like you would weight training or circuit training in the gym. You wouldn't do it every day because your body needs that day to recover, rebuild and regenerate. So three to four times a week is a good guide. And those workouts can be anything from 10 to 30 minutes. But you can definitely stretch and massage on it every day. And I recommend you do because like you said, it just feels amazing. Just feels amazing.

I know if I'm sitting like now that I have it on my house when I'm sitting, working because I, I stand at my desk a lot. But when I'm podcasting or on zooms, I'm typically sitting like right now when I'm talking to you. And it starts not feeling amazing in my back because I don't have that disc. So one of the things I find myself doing is I'll in a break go to the power plate and I just like want to sit on it or lay on it or hold a plank on it.

And it.

Because it relieves that it's pretty, it's pretty cool. That's why I love how that's intuitive.

It just you, you want to get up and I'm the same like in, in my other room there, my power plate sits there. So I'll take regular breaks. I'll usually do like a forward fold, touch my toes that that vibration just travel down the back of my legs into the lower back. Or I'll sit on the edge of the platform in a straddle, just kind of slump forward to allow that vibration to massage the lower back. So there's. Yeah. When people then ask, well, how do I know what to do on it? We have a free app which has all the workouts and exercises. Some of our machines have the inbuilt workouts in the screen and through our social media as well. We have a ton of just go to exercise to try. So it's very, it's not, it's not an intuitive looking piece of equipment. It's not like you look at a bike and you're like, oh, get on there and cycle or a treadmill. I know that I walk or run on that. Some people look at it and say, what do I do with this thing? But it's very simple. Whatever you do on the ground, you do with vibration and you upgrade those results. Yeah.

Can you explain lymphatic? And so these are new words to me, by the way. Like, I mean I've heard of lymphatic system, but I wasn't until I had my explant and started really digging into lymphatic massage and like why this is so important. And now like I dry brush and I do a lot of things to help with lymphatic drainage. And then myofat facial release, fascial release is also something new to me. Can you explain from your perspective like what those are and how this actually helps with that?

Yeah, of course. And I followed your journey with explant surgery as well. And thank you for sharing that with everybody. And it is so important to understand the role that toxins can play in our body. So basically your lymphatic system is your body's, It's a one way system. It basically just flushes things out and it's responsible for flushing out toxins, you know, day to day life. We are ingesting or receiving toxins from everything from the chemicals in the products we use in the house to the things that we eat, the environment around us, pollution, everything. So especially in today's day and age, a lot of us can hold a lot of toxins within our body. So that the way to increase your lymph flow, which is to help with your toxin release and flushing out toxins is everything for once. You drink plenty of fluids. That's a great way to get help your lymphatic system. But what vibration does is accelerates that process of lymphatic drainage as well. So it increases your blood circulation and that's what has a knock on effect to your lymphatic drainage. And your lymph system is a one way system. It just pushes the crap out basically. So anything we can do to enhance that. So when you use power plate, it's important you're well hydrated as well because you're trying to support this accelerated release of toxins from your body. And the best way to maximize that lymphatic drainage on power plate is the massage. Okay, so that's one element of massage. And again you're laying your, your outer thigh on the plate, whatever it might be. You could also add a foam roller. A foam roller. We have vibration rollers at power plate as well. Now that's when you really get into that myofascial release. So the fascia surrounds our muscles. It's like a sheath or a tissue that surrounds our muscles. And when you work out or just day to day activities and life we can get, it feels like a knot or stickiness or tightness in that fascia. And it's basically about fascia's clumped and essentially form knots and tension around the muscle. And that's when you start to feel like, oh, maybe one side of my back's pulling or you know, down that one side of my neck or typically our it band the outer part of our Thigh can get very sticky because a lot of us are quad dominant and our adductors, our inner thighs don't work as effectively. Really tight and pulling on the outside of the thigh, which can cause the knees to rotate out and cause problems. So it's all have this sort of knock on effect. So if you can keep your fascia released, myofascial release, it's essentially a process of releasing that tension, tightness and stickiness in the fascia, which relieves any pulling or feeling on the muscles that most of us day to day feel. So foam rolling is excellent for that. But when you add vibration, which is increasing muscle temperature and blood flow and you're rolling or applying pressure onto the platform of just your body weight, that's when you can really effectively get that myofascial release. And fascia loves vibration. So the fascia tissue loves vibration. So when we give it vibration through power plate, it really works to release and smooth out all of that tightness. And that's. You might not have known that's the process, but that's you going, that feels really good.

I think intuitively we do that a lot of times, but we didn't, I didn't know that connection. Talk to me about visceral fat and how this actually, because you is one of the things you mentioned earlier, is that this actually can help tap into visceral fat. How does that happen or how does that work?

Yeah, so to make the distinction, visceral fat is really the invisible fat. It's the fat around our internal, internal organs. And I'm not, I'm not talking necessarily about fat you might feel around your stomach or backs, your arms, your thighs or whatever. That's more that subcutaneous fat, which isn't actually as dangerous. The visceral fat fat is the dangerous fat that's around the midsection. Now in order to remove that it can it. There's a big dietary component obviously. But what we found, and we have a study that shows and all our research can be found on powerplate.com and there are lots of independent peer reviewed studies not done by us, they're all studies on whole body vibration with power plate.

Sure.

And we found that power plate, whole body vibration and the protocol used in the study three times a week using whole body vibration had a significant reduction on visceral fat, which obviously has huge benefits when it comes to our heart health, cholesterol, all of these different things. And the reason being is there's another hormone called irisin. And irisin is stimulated by intense Exercise, high intensity exercise. And essentially it helps to convert this visceral fat into brown fat. And brown fat has a really great impact on our metabolism and cholesterol and blood pressure and all of those things. But a lot of people can't do high enough intensity exercise to stimulate this release of irisin. But what vibration training does, I've told you, it activates your muscles 30 to 40 times per second. It's giving you the benefits of high intensity exercise without the impact of doing high intensity exercise because of that effect it's having on the muscles. So you could just stand in a squat on power plate, make sure those muscles are under tension, you're holding on in a squat position and you're getting in 30 seconds, 900 muscle contractions.

So kind of like if you were doing jump squats, but you not, you don't have to do jump squats.

So rather than doing that high intensity HIIT training that you need to elicit certain hormone responses, we can achieve it in a much easier way using.

I even know this about that. That's incredible.

My grandma would use power. My grandma's not lifting weights. She's passed now, but when she was alive, she wasn't lifting weight, but we had one of the small personal power plates and she would just stand on it and she'd do a few little rounds of standing on that and it's got older. We just put her feet on it to help with her blood, you know. So there's huge benefits that either women aren't getting because they're not prepared to do weight training, or people can't do because joint wise, fitness wise, they can't lift that amount of weight or do that intensity of training. So power plates become an incredible source of getting people the benefits of high intensity and heavyweight training without that load.

Talk to me about bone density. And this is a big topic for us. We need to be paying attention to this in midlife. I have not actually had a bone density test yet and I need to do that this year. That's on my list to do. But this is something that is super important for us as we age. Like I always the two things that we've got to protect when we age is muscle. We have to be protecting muscle. So that's why I talk about eating protein and doing resistance training and doing things like this. But then also we have to protect our bone strength. I mean, if we don't look out for these things and that's what makes us not mobile, that's what makes us in pain later. Talk to us about bone density, because I know that was a big reason that you jumped onto the power plate train.

Yeah. In fact, bone density is one of our most researched areas when it comes to whole body vibration. And in fact, the very first use of vibration training was with the Russian cosmonauts back in the 50s, and they used power plate. Well, sorry, it wasn't power. They use vibration. PowerPoint came later, 25 years ago. They used vibration to improve their bone density prior to their space expedition, where in that weightlessness environment, you rapidly lose muscle mass and bone density. And bone mass. So it was proven then that the vibration helped improve their bone density. And they had a much smaller decline than their American counterparts that hadn't used vibration prior to their expedition. So that was the very first use of it. So that kind of sets the scene a little bit, but essentially the way it works and it knocks on a little bit. Well, follows on from what I was just saying. In order to improve your bone density, or at least slow the decline of your bone density, you need a certain amount of tensile and compressive loading on the bone. And that stimulates a deformation reformation process of the bone. Similar to when you work out, you create a stress on the muscle that creates a muscle breakdown. During recovery, the muscles rebuild and become stronger. So it's a similar principle, but in order to create that deformation reformation process, you need quite a significant amount of load. So weight needs to be lifted to achieve that. And as we get older, we can't do that. People can't lift the amount of load necessary to elicit that response in the bone. But what vibration does is creates that same deformation reformation process which stimulates huge amount of bone growth. That's comparable to or more so than weightlifting. And if you use them together, you know, even better. But it's more what we call doable for most people. My grandma, mother, you know, anyone that's. Even from the age of 40 and above, when that bone density can start to decline, especially in women, it can be a really significant way to maintain and even improve your bone density because you don't need to put the stress on your body. The vibration is creating that tensile and compressive loading on the bone without the impact. So it's sort of coming back to that same narrative again. But that's how it really helps with our bone. Not to mention the hormone benefits from vibration training as well. Testosterone, human growth hormone increases and benefits, which all help towards muscle and bone as well.

Yes, there's a lot of different people speaking about vibrational training lately. But I know that Power Plant is different than other types of vibrational training. Do you know much about that and why Power plate versus other types? I only know Power plate. That's the only one that I've worked out with or have.

And we are, we are the leaders in whole body vibration. We're actually medically approved. We have MDD certifications. We're actually considered a medical device product over and above a fitness product. Anyway. So there's not many machines, if any, if I can recall correctly, that have that level of study, support and credibility if you like. But not only that, there's the word. Power plates becomes synonymous with vibration training. But not all machines are the same. Powerplay is the 3D movement that I talked about. And it's that primarily that up and down movement, that vertical displacement that's creating and not to get too science based, but that ground, the ground reaction forces that stimulate muscle growth. Okay. Muscle activation and growth. A lot of these machines are what we call teeter totter. They're really just sort of moving from side to side or when you look at them you see them rapidly moving. So they're not causing those tiny little rapid muscle contractions in the way Power Plate is now. Are they creating an instability that we have to work against? Yes, you know, do they have that benefit? But a lot of other machines don't work within the same frequencies and have the same medical backing and research backing that we have. So we pride ourselves on having all that research and study and achieving those levels of medical certification. But of course there's others on the market. But we very much claimed our place as the most tested, researched and credible in terms of whole body vibration.

So I you, you all listening. I am going to continue to keep sharing as I learn more about these age optimizing. I've renamed it. I don't like it sounds very masculine and very, I mean nothing against that but I don't know what really hacking but age optimizing is something I can really get behind. Like we, we don't. I know we can't actually reverse age and we can't age in reverse like truly, but we can definitely optimize ourselves as we age. So you know, I, I'm just this year really getting on board with like what are things to really help with this. So vibrational training was something I was doing for years without really even understanding why. I think it was what you said. It was kind of like that intuitive feeling.

It felt good.

Especially after my disc rupture and then I only knew of them in the gyms. Like a lot of your gyms, if you're listening, have these and it's like you could see it. It's like it looks like a plate you stand on and it has a handle. But now they have them that you can put in your home. So I have one actually in my home now. It's, it's, it's not like light to move, but you can't. I have the move outside.

The move machine. The move machine. Do you have the home basement? Yeah. Without the console?

Yeah. Yes, without the console. And then so I can't personally like lift it. I mean I probably could but my husband like he'll move it outside for me sometimes if I want to work out outside with it.

But you.

It's small enough that you can put it like in any room. So I, I'm really liking it. And it's one of those things like your whole family can use. So it's not just about working out. Like you said your grandmother would put her feet on it. It, I mean you could literally. I'm. This is, I mean I'm sure this is not the best use of it, but you can totally do this. You could be watching TV or reading and put your feet on it and it feels like a massage.

Yeah.

You can sit like I go sit on it sometimes and it just feels good on my back or I'll lay on it but like lately I'll do things like glute bridges on it or planks where I'll put my hands or my feet on it and just to get that vibration or even like you said, just doing some standing squats and I haven't yet done like this whole 30 minute workout. I think I did like once and did a video about it, but I don't. That's not been. I'm going to start moving towards a lot more of that. But, but just so you all know, even if you just have five minutes in a day to go work on a plank and do it there, or just five minutes to go quick squats, it actually feels really good and you're doing a lot of good for your body. So just a quick place if you all want to learn more about it. If you go to powerplate.com forward/natalie jill so powerplate.com forward slash natalie jill. And if you use coupon Power. I'm sorry, if you use coupon Natalie Jill they were super generous with you and you get 20% off. Off. So coupon Natalie Jill gets 20 off. Where can they find you if they want to follow you and learn more?

Yeah, absolutely. So you can, you can find me on Instagram at. Caroline Pierce and I put a lot of my power plate workouts. I mean, we've even done some stuff recently about what to do on power play at different points in your cycle, if you're still menstruating as well. So, you know, interesting as to how you can adapt it according to that. So, yeah, I put a lot of videos, particularly with power play and ground based as well, that you can follow along on my Instagram. But I love that you talked about the different models there because. Yeah, just to make people aware, if you see one in the gym, you're probably going to see a very large platform with a big console that you can hold on to. But we have the ones for the home like you have, which, yeah, two people can move it. We even have a smaller one called the personal power plate that I've lifted in a pair of heels at an event.

Oh, that's great.

To the other side of the room.

I didn't know about that.

But they're all the same, you know, incredible vibration. And just to, to make people feel reassured as well, because some people think, oh, vibration, is it going to harm me? What if I've got a bad back? What about this? That and the other? Vibration is a completely natural phenomena. The fact we are hearing one another is due to vibration waves. Seeing one another is due to vibration waves. And if you are medically cleared to exercise, obviously consult with your doctor always. But you can use power play and vibration and you will benefit from that because the frequencies we use do not resonate with any of the frequencies within the body. So it's, it's basically just making everything better, just making it feel better. And it's, it's what we call call a very smooth harmonic vibration. So it's a very pleasant experience as you've, as you've reported as well. I love this.

Yeah. Thank you so much. Okay, so everyone go follow Caroline. And if you want to check out powerplate, powerplate.com Natalie Jill or Natalie Jill is the Coupon to get 20% off. Thank you so much. Thank you.

My pleasure. Thank you for having me on.