Breast Implants… The Decisions, The Regrets, The Issues with Dr. Amie Hornaman

So it's so interesting how this podcast episode came about because we're talking about 12 boob jobs today. Yep, I said it right. 12 boob jobs. Everything we've learned, everything we regret, everything we would do different, what we maybe don't regret. But Dr. Amy Horniman and I, Natalie Jill, here, we were set to interview each other. We had just met recently. She was going to interview me about midlife fat loss. I was going to interview her about thyroid fix. We had just met. We clicked instantly.

And.

And I had to postpone our interview. And when I said, why? She said, oh, my gosh, I have a very similar journey. I said, I have to postpone it because I have a breast implant rupture and it is not my first rodeo with this. This will be my sixth surgery. And she right away left me a message back and said, what did you say when you left me a message right back?

Ah, yeah, that. I get it. Because back in July, I too had a rupture and I was very open about it on social. I'm like, my boob exploded. FYI, this didn't happen, but I had a rupture. I had my sixth surgery as well. So I totally understood what you were going through, and I wanted you to know that I got it. And then that just started a whole back and forth conversation about boobs. It's been wonderful.

And then we thought, you know what? We've been talking on voice note about this. Let's take this on our podcast because there's so much talk now about breast implant illness. There's so much talk about removing implants. And Dr. Amy and I, we are of the generation that it was super common to get implants. I know I'm. You're almost 50, right? And I'm 52. Yep, yep, yep, yep. So when we were in our late teens, early 20s, it was the thing. I mean, everyone really, truly everyone I knew was getting implants. It was. It was the thing. And it was not considered unhealthy. It wasn't considered toxic. It was just, I don't know, it was like, so normalized. Right?

Totally. And because we were both in the fitness realm too, it was even more normalized because you either got implants or you stood out on stages in photo shoots. You kind of stood out as, oh, yeah, the flat one. And when you get in shape, and I'll share that, I'm sure you have a similar story. When you get in shape, you lose your boobs. I mean, they're fat, right? So you start losing weight Getting toned and getting muscular and looking at it, which is awesome, but then you go completely flat.

So today on this episode, we wanted to share our journeys that we're going to both share. Sort of like why we got them, what we've navigated through the years and then our feelings now because. And this is important, if you have them and you've been thinking, I've got to take them out, I think this episode's for you. If you're thinking about getting them, I think this episode's for you. If you think you've got bii, this episode is for you. There's just anything implant oriented. I think you're going to enjoy this episode and we're going to be as authentic as we can and share exactly what we've been through and why and where we stand now with it. And as we record this, I'm about to enter into a six surgery because of a rupture, so. And you just recently had your sixth surgery. So I guess let's start with tell. Tell us the story of what you got, why you got them, what. Tell it. I know it was fitness oriented, but what prompted you to get them? Yeah.

So back in the day, in my early 20s, I started competing in figure shows. Fitness and figure shows. And, you know, you start in. I was always conscious about my body. I always lifted, I always worked out, but I never went that extra step of getting ready for a show where you're standing on stage in a bikini being judged. FYI, for anyone out there, that's. What. What is she talking about?

Yeah.

Yeah. You get down to your most athletic self and you step on stage in a teeny bikini and be judged in front of everybody in the audience. So looking back, it's a little bit crazy to do, but it's what I wanted to do. I wanted that challenge, right? How. How could I make my body the best? And I wanted to go through that whole show prep and that regimen. Well, I got hooked. And I did plenty of shows after that, plenty of photoshoots after that. But I knew after that first show that something wasn't right up top. I just wasn't filling out the bikini top. And because I actually, I have scoliosis, so my rib cage is slightly twisted because my spine is curved and what that does to your chest wall. And I learned this after the fact is it actually kind of indents one side of your. Of your rib cage. And with that indentation, when I lost and I had walked around as a full C my whole life, I mean, that's what I grew up as.

You had already had that. You had them? Yeah, I did.

I had natural boobs. But then when I got ready for the show, I lost those. And literally one became. And my. My plastic surgeon actually said this to me. She's like, one is a full a cup kind of perky. This other one is a droopy B. It looks like you've been breastfeeding for about a year. And I mean, it was. It was kind of reality. It was truth right in my face. She wasn't. She wasn't really being mean. She was just being blunt. And I can't falter for that because I was like, you know what? You're kind of right. That's exactly what they look like. So not only was I going in for. For enlargement, I was also going in to be balanced again because I didn't want that. That off balance look. So I went in and that was my first set of implants. They were saline and they balanced me out. So one implant for me always has to be larger than the other. And in order for both to look.

That makes sense. Equal. So for me, mine was a little bit different. I was 19 years old and I was waiting tables at Hooters. Yes, I was. And I had. I was flat as a board. I had. I didn't even have it fully cup. I mean, I was always flat as a board. I was self conscious my whole teens about it. I was one that developed late. I started menstruating late. Like I was 15. I was just really late to everything. And I remember working at Hooters and you know, this is years ago. People were not as politically correct on things. I feel like. Like is we grew up in the world of. My mom was drinking tab soda. We were always talking diets like we. You advertisements to be skinny. Like, it wasn't. There was no body positive movement at the time. It wasn't accept. Like people expected you to look like a Barbie doll and they weren't afraid to talk, to talk about it. I mean, that's what really advertising. You know, you walk into stores now, you see mannequins that represent all types of body sizes. We did not have that. I mean, everything was Barbie doll looking. Skinny, thin, long legs, big boobs, tan, long blonde hair. Like that was that. That was the image, right? And I remember working at Hooters and we. The one I worked at, you couldn't wear the little tank tops and we wore these little orange shorts and you would wear these T shirts that you would Tie in the back. And I remember I was flat as a board. And I remember getting comments from customers over and over again. Oh, you've got some Hooters there, don't you? Like, sarcastic. I mean, this is. I think back at this. If my daughter were to work there, like, would I be okay with that? Absolutely not.

Right.

Whatever reason I was doing this, and I was in college and doing this, and I wanted a boob job. That was the thing. I just. I obsessed over it. I wanted one. And I remember even going to a surgeon for a consult because all the girls at Hooters had them and they told me the price, and that was way out of my budget at that time. And I remember applying for one of those, like, care credit cards to finance them. And I remember begging. Begging my parents to co sign it. Like, and they were like, absolutely not. And I convinced my dad to co sign it. Like, I think back now, like, what? So he. He co signed my loan to get my boobs. And I went and got a first pair, which was silicone. For me, that was my first taste in it. And by the way, I remember waking up because they. They used to put them under the muscle automatically. Yeah. I remember waking up thinking I felt like I had bricks in me and I wanted them out, like, right away. I was like, this doesn't feel right.

Oh, yeah. Oh, 100%. Like an elephant on your chest.

Absolutely.

And I went under the muscle too, with my first one.

But no one, I didn't feel at the time that people judged it in a negative way. It was like. Like an initiation. Like, oh, good, you finally got your boobs. That's how I felt.

Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then the attention afterwards. I mean, you're. You're young. You're 19. I was 21, 22. I mean, we were loving life. We're like, yeah, take a look at these walking down the street. That's right.

Yeah. No, interestingly enough, my. My surgeon that had. And put in a pretty conservative set. They weren't overly big. I was probably a small C. And I want. I always wanted a bigger. I mean, I. I love. They never felt big enough. I don't know if you went through that, but they never felt big enough at the time.

Oh, yeah, yeah. So I too, started off with a moderate C, because that's what I was. So that's what I was used to. I was just going back to what I was used to. And then I can't remember how many years I had those in. Well, my. My first. My Second surgery, my first change up occurred actually, because they did put them under the muscle. And I feel, looking back, I feel like my surgeon didn't really ask me how much I work out. I mean, if you do. If you do push ups, you do not want them under the muscle.

I learned that the hard way, too. Yeah.

So over time, what had happened is my pec muscle literally started compressing the implant, almost pulling it up. So I had the implant high and then breast tissue down below low.

Yeah, it is like. And you could, like, flex and make them look weird. It was like a weird thing. It's bizarre to me that they even put them under the muscle at all, if you. When you think about it that way. But they thought, say it would look more natural, but it doesn't even make sense in my head how it would go under a muscle and look more natural.

More natural, right.

Yeah. So what happened with your. How did you end up in a.

Second surgery so that it started to look weird? So I was just gonna go in and just have that one implant swapped out. But then when I went in for the consultation back with my first doctor, she was talking and she's like, you know, by that time, silicone had been rereleased. When I first got. They must have pulled silicone right after you had.

They did, they did. It was right after. In fact, I actually got back a class action lawsuit, amount of money in the mail because they had just recalled them after I got them in.

Okay. Right.

But I still, you know, this is to be young and naive. Like, I still did not connect the dots that there could be something wrong. I'm thinking like, oh, just somebody was mad. I didn't understand what I had really stepped into.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I mean, I didn't have a choice. So when I got mine done, I didn't even have a choice. But then, well, they. They did study.

So I think.

I mean, what you're saying actually is not wrong. I think maybe a couple people did get mad and sued and attributed their health conditions to the silicone that was out back then. But then they did some studies, and they kind of came all the way around and said, you know what? We're not really seeing a strong connection here. There's not a problem with the silicone versus the saline. We're not seeing a difference between the two types of implants in health outcomes in women. So they reintroduced the silicone back into women's choices.

So with me, what happened with me was I pretty instantly got something called capsular contracture. And for some of you listening, have experienced this, some of you don't even know what that is. But it's basically your body is rejecting the implant and your body is fighting it, and it creates this hardening to almost push it out of your body. Again, dumb and naive. I wasn't connecting the dots that, like, maybe my body doesn't actually want these. So I form this capsular contracture. And that, you know, brings me into a series of surgeries. And when they do them first, like, easy to kind of break it up. And then a surgeon had suggested, you know what, you've got capsular contracture. Let's go into surgery, we'll break this up, and I'm going to replace them with saline, and the problem should go away. And with me, when I went into that surgery, I woke up. I remember. I'll never forget this. I was in my early 20s, and I woke up to my mom standing over me, and she said, I should have told him to take those dang things out. So my mom knew. Apparently, when he went in there, it had the reason. One, it had become a capsular contractor. The other one still felt natural. And the reason it still felt natural is because it completely exploded and ruptured. Now. Now, before you have an augmentation or a redo or anything, they do a mammogram. They do imaging to see if it's intact. They didn't do that then. This is years ago. This is over 25 years ago. So the surgeon goes in unknowingly to cut and to replace, and silicone spills everywhere. The gel, like, still till this day, it's literally in my lymph nodes. And I don't want to fast forward too far ahead, but when people say that, why do I still have them or get. Just get them out or they're toxic or anything. What I. It's hard to explain to them, but I want them to understand I have the worst possible thing that could have happened with silicone. When you have a silicone rupture now, they stay in the capsule. Yes. It does not go into your body. So a lot of people that experience BII or have these problems, it's because they had a rupture or it's intact and their body doesn't like the silicone. My silicone from that implant in my early 20s is in my lymph node still. It is all over my body. I will never be able to get that out. That's. It's just not possible that I know of. It's everywhere. So if, if there is something that I'm going to get from that, there's nothing, there's nothing I can do to avoid it. So me keeping implants down or taking them out or whatever is not going to protect me against that since I already had that rupture.

Right, that's true. It's already in. It's already had the. I had a similar rupture. So I've had two ruptures total. A similar rupture recently, which we'll get to. But that was my July.

Yes.

Change out, swap out. And he had explained to me that the, the silicone did, did kind of leak out even though it was a gummy bear type of implant. Meaning, I mean, you guys know gummy bears. When you pull off the gummy bear's head, it's still basically intact. You just have two pieces. So these implants these days are more gummy like, like that. But I had still, I still had pieces.

Yes.

And, and some liquidized silicone that had traveled outside of my capsule as well. It was actually down near my rib cage and they had to dig that out and then tighten up the capsule again. So just like you and we can get to this. If I was going to react negatively health wise.

Yeah, it will.

It would have happened. I would.

Here's what I don't know, Amy. I have celiac and I got celiac in my early 30s. I'll never. It's an autoimmune, so for all I know that could have been related to that. I'm not to say yes or no. It didn't happen. I don't know. However, what I, what I feel strong and I can keep going through the journey of the implants. What I want people to understand if they're considering getting them. This is, this is really important. Like the most important thing I want to say to people. If you are considering getting them, just know this is a lifelong thing. Like this is a lifelong thing.

They.

Some people have better odds than other. But here you and I have each had. I'll have six surgeries you've had. This is a lifelong thing. So this is not you put them in and you're done. This is. You put them in and you're navigating this every few years. Possibly.

Definitely. And it's recommended that you get them replaced every 10 years anyways. These days I know that they can stretch them out. I know some women that have had them in 15 and 20 years by that time, I mean even just the, the mold, ASP or you know, Things growing around the implant, you just want to get them swapped out just to stay safe.

Yes. Now, I will say once you have capsular contracture. I learned this the hard way, too. The reason I kept getting it, apparently is it's actually a bacterial infection. I didn't know this. So once you actually get capture back capsular contracture, if you do not completely take out that capsule and clear out that and action has your place, that you will keep getting capsular contracture. And I didn't understand that until I had an amazing doctor about 7 years ago fix me. And I never had an issue after that because she closed out, took out that capsule, repaired my muscle, and put them over the muscle, and I never got capsular contracture again.

Oh, that is interesting. Okay, so I did have capsular contracture as well. And the doctor had to go in. I had to go under, and he broke it up. Like it was not a surgery that you would want to be awake for. Like, he got in there and basically. Basically massage so heavily that it broke up the capsule. But it's interesting that you're saying that because my now surgeon, who I love, during the July surgery, he did say something about he had to clean out the capsule and then tighten it down. So I bet that's what he did. Just to prevent.

Yes, to prevent getting it back again. Yeah, so. So what's interesting is the next thing is, why did our implants rupture again? Like, why did mine rupture again recently? And I. And I know that mine actually ruptured a mammogram. I don't know if you know how you're structured.

I don't. I believe. And we've been going round and round of this in. In. In my head and talking to my husband, too. Like, how do you think it. You think you squeeze them too hard? Honey, I don't know. I mean. I mean, to this day, I don't know whether it was, you know, doing a row on a bench with the weight in front of me and having that pressure. I don't know if it was massage, getting a deep tissue massage. You know, there are times when I'm getting a massage that I'm like, okay, a little bit easy there, because you're pushing my boobs into the table. Thank you.

But they're not supposed to be that. They're. So you think about it like they've had things that you're pushing, running a.

Tire over them or whatever.

They're not supposed to be like that. What I know for sure is my Last mammogram really, really hurt. Like she, they pulled, they pinched and I think that's what did it because there was a report on that that showed the rupture. And what I did learn from multiple consultations after is that you've got to be extremely careful with mammograms. And in fact you almost shouldn't do them with implants and instead could ask for a breast, which could still be thorough. So I, moving forward, if I were to choose, to choose to keep them, I'm going to not get a mammogram. I would have a breast mri.

That is smart. And again, now that you're saying that two years ago I had a mammogram and I had actually a questionable one. So I had to go back for more and I still had to do the 3D imaging anyways because of the implants because they can't get a good picture of the tissue anyways with an implant in. So yeah, ladies with implants don't get the mammogram. Yeah, just get the breast imaging. I mean they have the 3D imaging now. They have the ultrasound. I mean they can do so much without squeezing your breast in a very tight machine.

Okay, now I want to talk about the obvious. I know some people are listening, going, well, girls, are you just let's, this is dumb. Why wouldn't you just take them out? And I want to talk about that a little bit because this is more than just let's just take them out. And I want to for, I'll say first this. If I knew that just completely taking them out was going to prevent any problem with silicone down the road, then I would do it despite all the psychological things. That's not an option for me because I already had a massive rupture that's still in me. So I know that. Second thing is what people don't realize, and this might be shallow to some, I'm just going to tell you what goes on in my head. Going from a double D that I've been for 33 years to flat as a board again with scars everywhere, that's a hard pill to swallow for me. I just, I don't know if I'm that strong. I'm just, I'm just saying now if it was like this is a guaranteed healthier step for you, then I would be open minded to it more. But it's not for me because I already had that rupture. That's just where my brain is right now. I'm just being really honest about It.

No, I appreciate your honesty on that, and I'm sure everyone does because you're just being real. And really, to stack on top of that honesty, I feel good with my breast implants. Like, I feel more confident. So whenever I hear the argument of, oh, isn't that vain to go get a surgery? You're getting a surgery. You have six surgeries just to have those. I go, well, do you go to the gym? You get your hair colored? Do you put makeup on every day? Do you get your eyebrows done? Do you maybe get a little bit of Botox? You're doing things to make you feel about. Better about yourself. And I am all for that. I have always. I have supported women in doing what they want to do. I'll have patients kind of be like, I think I want to get a tummy tied. I'm like, go for it, girl. Yeah, you do that, because that is going to make you feel better looking at yourself, getting naked with your partner. I don't care what it is. Putting on a bikini, going on vacation, you are going to hold yourself higher day to day because you feel confident rather than wearing big old shirts because you want to hide what you got.

Yeah.

None of that. You do you and do things that make you feel great. And that. That was my choice. So if you told me today, you know, you're going to have to have six surgeries and. And I realize I still have more in my future.

Yeah.

Would you do it? I would say yes, I would.

You would? Okay, so I'm the opposite. I don't think I would do it knowing what I know now. Okay. Yeah. But however, like, if I could go back in time and if I knew this, if I knew I was going to have all this stuff happen and who knows if it caused the celiac not. I would say I wish I had never. However, now that I'm in it, it's very hard to say I'm just going to take them out and be done and have, you know, like just. Just so you guys know what's involved. To take them out is an explant surgery. So they remove the capsule, the full capsule. They do a block surgery. But because if you've gone from a double D and you would zero have zero tissue, you do a full lift. Otherwise you literally have hanging skin. So that involves not only a scar under your breast, it involves a vertical scar from your nipple down, plus around your nipple, so you got multiple scars. And then I will be concave. Like concave, not flat, concave. Like, I will have A hole there. So to me, you know, I've talked to my husband about this numerous times and he's very supportive of whatever I decide. But hearing the clear facts that I already had the rupture that's in my body, that is going to mess me up. So psychologically I don't. You all can think I'm shallow all you want. I'm just telling you it's going to mess with my confidence. To me, I would rather just go a lot smaller and still have something. That's what I've decided. But I do. I would say I regret doing it to begin with. I know why I did it. I just regret that I did it to begin with.

Right, right.

And.

And I will share that. That BII note, I have had, I would say about 10 patients get the breast explant surgery. Five of them said that it was the best decision of their life.

Really.

They felt better the day they walked out of surgery. A hundred percent they would do it again. Five of them felt no difference. Really.

And are.

They're really having a hard time and. And a couple of them are thinking about going back. Really? Yes.

Okay. Because it's interesting.

Thought it would make a difference.

So I. Yeah. And so what I do think, I do believe BII is real. I. I just. But I also am concerned that a lot of people might assume they have it when they don't. Like, there's other things they haven't navigated yet because there's so many other things. I mean, it could be perimenopause, it could be their hormones, it could be an autoimmune that they already. It could be so many other things that aren't breast implant, you know, illness related. Some people do have it, but I don't know that everybody has it. Which, by the way, have you noticed it's a little bit like. I'm just gonna say it. It's a little bit like a cult of people that have, like. There's like. I feel like I get attacked, like, and I'll get attacked on this episode. I already know it. We're gonna have the. Some people, the BII police, like, without knowing our background or story or anything, they're just like, you should take them out. This is toxic. This is like, you know, and I just feel that everybody has a unique situation. So just because that's your journey or your particular situation doesn't mean it's everybody's journey and situation. That's how I feel.

Oh, 100%. And yeah. Yeah. Well, we're Both going to get attacked a little bit. But I think it has to come back to respect of each and every individual's decision.

Yes.

Like I would never tell a patient or a listener who said to me, you know what? I'm really thinking about getting explant surgery because I really, truly believe that all my problems started after I got my implants. And I wouldn't discourage.

That makes sense then, though. That makes sense.

It makes sense. I mean, I would never discourage her at the same time, nor would I encourage someone to go have them out just because they have them in. And we think maybe kind of sort of it might be tied to their autoimmune or their, their health conditions that they're dealing with. I have Hashimoto's too. Now, looking back again, I mean, okay.

Did your Hashimoto come up after? So it's interesting. So yours might be related to that rupture too. We don't know.

It was years after, though. So I can't, I can't think about the. I, I don't know, the timing of the first rupture and the Hashi diagnosis. I've never pieced that together. I'd have to go back and look. Okay, but after my first set of implants, I mean, it was a good, gosh, six, seven, eight years after that that I was diagnosed. So I can't really say there's a direct correlation between having the implants in my body and even with saline, they still have a silicone exterior.

That's true. The other thing is. So here's the interesting thing about autoimmune and collect chronic. Correct me if I'm wrong because you, you're very knowledgeable on this. But with autoimmune you have to have the gene to get the autoimmune to begin with. You have to be predisist, predisposition to get an autoimmune. And then your body needs a stress or trauma to bring that on. So the implants could be one thing that brings that on, but it doesn't guarantee that you're not going to get an autoimmune by taking them out or not having implants. Because any stressor could create an autoimmune. Is that correct?

Oh, 100. Pregnancy, perimenopause, menopause, hormonal changes can turn on.

Getting a virus, getting mono, getting anything like that could do that. Getting, getting Covid could have done that for people.

Yep.

Any auto, any autoimmune is always triggered by a stressor. That's my understanding of it. And there's lots of autoimmune disorders that are. That are. That. So that. So that's interesting that you actually had patients. Some feel better, some don't. So what is your thought on somebody that has them? They don't have symptoms and they're thinking, I just should take them out because.

Well, you know, I would. I would go through that thought process like you did. How are you going to feel? What is the surgery? What does it involve? What is the cost and what is the healing time emotionally and mentally, mentally and physically afterwards? Because you are going to go through that morning, you are going to look different in all of your clothes. Like you said, it could be a concave. Maybe it will be.

Mine would have been concave for sure.

That's. That's a heavy.

It's a.

That's a heavy load. Yeah. That's a lot to do.

Yeah. And I don't know if someone could tell me they're shallow. I'm shallow all they want. I'm just telling you what's real for me. It's gonna affect me. It honestly would really affect me to be. I mean, I don't mind going a lot smaller, and I will go a lot smaller. That's. That's true. But just completely removing is. Is very intimidating to me right now.

That's a big step. I mean, think about the emotional trauma that a woman goes through when she gets a breast cancer diagnosis and told she needs to have a mastectomy. I mean, that is. That is a very similar surgery to breast explant, except with mastectomy, they can do the rebuild, but they're, they're doing it with implants.

So that's the other thing. So see, implants have gotten so villainized. But, like, that has actually been a lifeline for a lot of women that have had mastectomies. Yes. And silicone in general. If you think about. There's all types of body parts that. That helps with. It's not just implants. If you have an elbow replacement, a knee replacement that's all made from silicone. So it's interesting. There's this big push about breast implants. Bad. But what about silicone for other body parts?

Yeah. You wouldn't say, like, hey, I don't really want that knee to be redone. I'm just gonna just chop it off.

Yeah.

Just cut it off at the, at the knee and I'll just be a peg leg. Like, no, you're going to have that done for quality of life. Course we don't need implants for quality of life or do we. I don't know. For confidence of life? Yeah, maybe there is some quality of life mixed in there.

What I will say is I do think that women in their 20s and 30s right now are a little bit luckier because they don't have that as much of the body image comparison that we did. I mean, I know they still see it on social media, but it's not like it was with us growing up. I know it's not. Every role model for us was a Barbie doll. I mean, everything was that. So it was really ingrained in us that you had to look a certain. You had to look that way. I feel that all body types are so accepted now, and that was not the case.

And that's an interesting perspective because when I think back, you're right. It was literally. We played with Barbies. We looked at Glamour and Cosmo magazines, and back then things were still photoshopped and. And airbrushed. So you're right. We had a different level of pressure. We didn't have the right. On your phone, right at your fingertips, social media pressure.

But it was.

It was way different because it was very much streamlined, like you said. I mean, the 80s and 90s, my gosh, that was all about, you're skinny as you possibly can be.

Yep.

Big boobs, lawn, one hair.

Yeah. Yes. Yes. All the regrets. So, so interesting. So I guess this. So our journey continues on this. And this is why we wanted to share. We just wanted to share both of our stories because, number one, if you're considering it, you should know that they are a lifelong situation. But I also hope if you are the person that has judged people that have them, that you maybe have a little bit of an understanding because it's so easy to judge people right now and go, that's so fake. Or that. But just know we're all raised so differently. We all have our own stories, our own background, our own limiting beliefs, our own. Not everybody is walking the same path. So it's what you choose for you might be a very different path than what somebody else chooses for them. And I think that's okay. You know, I. I hope for people to have a little bit more compassion and not be so, like, I can't. I don't know why people are so mean about it. To me, like, I get some of the messages about bi. They're just downright mean, like, why. Why? They don't even know my journey. Why are they so mean? They don't know.

You know, I think if we Just look at human nature. You know, misery does love company. And I think if we can judge the people who might be happy and we're miserable with whatever we're dealing with. And I, I, believe me, I mean, I'm, I'm open about this on my podcast. Like I, I walk the walk of being 25 pounds overweight. Self loathing depression, I mean, full blown depression in my 20s, being judged at the gym because I was overweight. And it all stemmed from this undiagnosed thyroid condition. But still, I mean, I was really, really down and out and I felt horrible. So that when you're in that misery state, you don't want to see other people happy. Like, you look at happy people and you're like, I hate them. And it's just, it's that human nature. But what I would encourage instead is to get to know that person and get to know their struggle and their story because there might be a lot more behind it than what meets the eye. I mean, my audience really has never heard the fact that my rib cage was twisted and one boob was small and one boob was saggy and, and I was, you know, misshapen. And of course that's going to screw with your head, you know, especially in your 20s, that's going to screw with your comp.

You know, as you're talking, I was just thinking how you almost can't win because think about it. So like I said, I was made fun of for having a flat chest. You were made fun of for being so. Then you're mayfound for getting a flat chest. Then you're judged for not having a boob job in your early 20s or whatever you get. We get a boob job, then it's like, okay, you finally fit in. Now we're almost judged for having that. Like, look at that. That's so dumb. You had that like, you literally cannot win. So you have to do things for yourself because doing them for anyone else's approval is never a good plan. It's never a good plan. No, it's never going to work. We're going to get judged no matter what.

You're going to get judged no matter what. Exactly. So, yeah, you do you. And don't worry about the rest of the world and what they, what they say or what they think. Hold your head high.

I do want to talk a little bit about surgeon advice. Like if you are looking for. Because I've had we both having the number of implant surgeries we've had, had bad and good procedures yes. What I want to share is, number one, a surgeon should absolutely recognize all the things that we're talking about. If anyone tries to gaslight and say none of this is real, then that's a problem. Like a good surgeon is going to acknowledge that BII exists for people. They're going to acknowledge that this is not the only time you're going to have a surgery. They're going to acknowledge that they're not permanent, that you can have capsular contracture. All I feel like that's fair. And they're going to give you realistic expectations for removing them or putting them in or any of that. That's, that's what I feel about a good surgeon.

Yes, 100%. And a good surgeon, just like you experienced the other day, will spend time with you. This is not a factory where you're pushed in and out and you get a 20 minute consultation. Your surgeon spent two hours with you. My surgeon spent an hour and a half, two hours with me. And really, I mean, stayed in the room until a decision was made, until all of your. And my questions were answ. And that is the key to a good surgeon.

Yes. And doing background checks, not just on real self or Google, like really understanding and knowing somebody else that went to that surgeon that had that experience. Because I've heard horror stories about that, in fact, that one of the situations I had before my last one was completely botched and terrible and I didn't do my research on it, not like I should have. And it was, it was awful. So just really important because it is your body and you want to make sure you're, you're doing your research there for sure and not trying to cut corners because of a discount or whatever it is.

Oh my goodness. Yeah, please don't go to Mexico to have your, to have your breast surgery done or any surgery done. Just, you really do want to do that research and, and you're looking for the perfectionist. You're looking for that man or woman that is looking at you and really talking to you about what's going to look good on you, not just doing the surgery for money. And a good surgeon will tell you, you know what, what you're thinking of, I don't think will work. How about we do this instead? Because they can see your anatomy. If they've done enough of these and they're skilled, then they're going to look at your anatomy and they're going to say, listen, I know. Like, I know will look good, but they're also listening to you. So My. My surgeon, actually, I told you this story off air. I was so impressed when I heard after I woke up that my surgeon had had the implants, you know, that he thought would work in the or. And he got in there, and he's like, no, I know what she wants. I know what we're going for.

Yeah.

He called the Allergan rep and was like, I need you to bring me this and this to the hospital, to the er and my friend's like, yeah, you were just in there under. And he's meeting the Allergan rep to get your implants because he knew that's what you'd want.

Yeah.

And I was impressed.

I was. Yeah. I like that. I like that. Well, gosh, this is fascinating. To be continued on this topic, but I'm so glad we share this. I do want to ask a question. I'm just so curious. Your opinion on this. So a lot of times, especially if you search bii, you'll see these before and after pictures of people's faces. They're like, my eyes are white. After what I want to know because you are the doctor. Like, I'm just so curious. You just came out of surgery. You just had a bunch of anesthesia and drugs in you. How is that possible? That we are. That somebody's instantly better? Or am I just missing something here?

You know, I don't know about the instant. I mean, is it. Is it that day? Is it the day after? Is it after you, you know, come out of anesthesia? I mean, who really knows? I know. You know, the placebo effect is real, too. I think there's that when. When women go into the breast explant surgery and they are so sick, like, they have never felt this bad in their life. There's also that. That kind of relief that what I believe is making me sick is now out.

Yes.

And it's like, okay, let's start this over again. So I think it's a combination of, you know, possibly you are. Your body isn't battling that thing that is in you, and there's that mental relief that. That weight that's been lifted off.

Gosh, I love this. Oh, God, Amy, thanks for having this. This candid talk with me. I'm glad we did this because we were voice zoning back and forth, and I'm like, let's share this.

Yeah, absolutely. So I guess the. The summary we'll give. We'll give a big old summary for everyone. Not now. Jill and I did not respond to the ruptures.

We were.

Okay. No, Real health concerns that would put us down, put us in bed, make us say, oh my gosh, we've never felt this way in our entire life. So I think the, the, the message is. And then I'm going to hand it over to you to give your final thoughts.

Thoughts.

I think the message that I really want to drive home too. And I talk about this on the podcast. I don't care whether it's mold, heavy metals, Lyme disease, Babesia, we're all exposed to these crazy things. Yes, I've been exposed to mold, we've all been exposed to heavy metals. If you live and breathe, you've been exposed to heavy metals. If you had amalgam feelings, you've been exposed to mercury your entire life. We've all been exposed. It's how shored up is your body at that time of exposure and that could be exposure to an implant going in. How shored up is your body to be able to handle it. If you are in a state of a heavy. I say a stressor, but that means all kinds of things that could mean an illness, a sickness, an autoimmune condition, stress in your life. If, if you're under that heavy stress burden and you put one more thing on it, it's like that, the, the cards that fall, like the little feather comes down and boom, the rest of the deck falls down. If your body is shored up and you are exposed to different stressors, it doesn't react. It's, it's non reactive. It can handle that stressor, it can process it, it can deal with it. And I think that's what you really have to look at going into surgery so that you're not faced with that decision. Do I get them out because now I'm sick? Make sure that you're doing all the hormone balancing, the eating properly, get your lifestyle in check, get your body shored up before you go into surgery. And I believe that process will definitely protect you from reacting to that implant.

I, everything you said I completely align with and it's, it's interesting. I think about, I've had so much thrown at me the last several years. So I think about. I had multiple injuries, I had a torn bicep, I had a broken foot, I had a ruptured disc. So multiple surgeries with anesthesia. Then I had a whole blood sugar issue that turned out to be a parasite. So random. So although I do think parasites are more common than people realize. I was living in a house that had mold, learned the hard way that we had black mold and left. Then I learned I have this rupture. And I got to tell you all, I feel healthier than I have ever felt. Like there's. I've had strike, strike, strike, strike, strike. Why do I feel healthier? Because I think I eat on point, I balance my hormones, I take care of my. I work out, I get natural sunlight every day. I do red light therapy. I have an oxygen chamber. Like, I do all the things I just. Like you said, I shorted up. So could I feel a lot better maybe if I. But I feel honestly great for. I'm 52. I feel fantastic. So I. I don't know. I'm not. Not challenging some people that are not feeling amazing. But I think like you said, it's the whole thing. It's not just about one thing is the cause there's like. Because we're all exposed to things.

We are exactly 100%.

So I think this. Thanks for having this conversation. For those of you that are annoyed by our conversation, I'm sorry that you didn't. We didn't go where you wanted. You wanted us to say we're taking them out, we hate them, this, that you know, but a little bit different direction. But I hope you have a little bit more of an understanding of. Of the journeys that we've been on and more to come from us. But I really wanted to share this today. Thank you.

Definitely more to come and thank you as well.