Fighting Back Against Abuse with Sarah Klein

Hi, I'm Natalie Jill, fat loss expert turned lifestyle and high performance coach. Welcome to Listen up the podcast. On this podcast I do what I do best. Taking complicated information that is relevant to us now and breaking it down simply with actionable steps you can implement to level up your life. I also regularly interview some of the most inspiring and courageous men and women on the planet who at their worst, learned how to achieve success greater than anything they ever, ever dreamed possible. Creating everything from nothing. If you are new here, I encourage you to go back and listen from episode one when this podcast was previously called Leveling up for the Full Transformative Experience.

Today I'm talking to Sarah Klein. She was a gymnast from the age of five. She is now a civil attorney representing survivors of sexual abuse. She was one of the original victims of Larry Nassar. And just quite an incredible journey. A story we're going to dive in to what it was like, how this happened, how the sexual abuse even happened, what that felt like to be in that as a child all the way up to the age of 25, why it's now her life purpose to help other victims. You know, she was telling me before we started recording that so many times the perpetrator will get penalize, go to jail, whatever it is. But the story of the victim is never healed, is never shared, they're never compensated. And she goes after helping supporting them. Thank you so much for being here today, Sarah.

Yay, thanks for having me.

So take us back. You were a kid that loved gymnastics, starting at age 5, I'm assuming then it was eyes bright, excited future, just loved your sport. Talk to us, talk us through what that was like and what sort of happened.

Yeah, so a girl that lived down the street invited me to bring a friend day at the local gym to probably to recruit new little gymnasts. And I bounced on the trampoline and ran around and had so much fun. And my mom signed me up for classes and it turns out I had a little bit of talent. And by 8 years old I was on the team. And this guy named Larry Nassar, right out of undergrad, not yet a doctor, not yet in medical school, came into our gym, talked to our coach and said, hey, can I volunteer here? And that should have been red flag number one. This 20 some year old setting up shop in this back room inaccessible by parents, inaccessible really by anyone else, and put a massage table down and began volunteering. And it started with basic stuff, taping our ankles, helping our hands when they would rip from the bar. But in that year of me being 8. It progressed into massage and release and sort of chiropractic type manipulation and then internal manipulation with ungloved hands, which he called medical treatment. And it progressed from there. It was a real, I want to set the scene for listeners because they go, wait, if that happened, why didn't you run out and tell this person or that person? Our coach was the worst part of this scenario. He was the most angry, arrogant, abusive man. For context. He became the 2012 Olympic women's gold medal fierce five head coach. But he also died by suicide this last February after being indicted by the Michigan attorney general with 24 counts of child abuse. So that was him. And then you've got Larry. Now. John Gettert taught us, don't talk. You know, you're worthless. Go kill yourself. You're nothing. You know all of this and really just answer and yeses and nos and do what I say and it's gonna hurt. But if you tell me it hurts, you're getting kicked out and you're a liar and you're trash. So that was what was going on. And that's not exclusive. Exclusive to this gym in Lansing, Michigan. The sport of gymnastics has historically at higher levels been very, very abusive.

Sarah. So right there I'm. What's coming up for me is this whole psychological abuse that you're being told that so kind of kicked down, beaten up now as a kid because, you know, you're eight, you're eight when you're really diving into this.

Yeah.

Did, did you think this was normal? Did you, were you scared of it? Did your parents know what was, what was a conversation in your head? I'm just trying to think as an 8 year old when someone's talking to you like that.

You're a child and you listen to adults and adults are the authority. And he's talking to me like this. Yeah, I was terrified. I mean, sometimes I would vomit before practice or in practice, to which he would examine my vomit and at one point saw french fries, which weren't allowed, and pushed my face in the vomit in front of the entire gym. But that was a regular occurrence. What's important for all listeners, these types of people will separate you from your parents. So he did not want parents watching. A lot of facilities had a rule, it's distracting if the parents are there. Parents aren't allowed. And you know, I did think it was normal because that's just what you think. You know, I have a six year old who doesn't know how to tie her shoes yet. Flash forward two years. I mean, she's not going to be a worldly, sophisticated thinker, you know, with raising red flags. So did you.

Did you tell your parents these things? Like when. The vomit story, for instance. Did you go home and say, this is what happened to me, or you just kept it to yourself?

I didn't really think it was unusual, you know, and that's the part that really gets people, because as adults, we're like, holy cow. When it's all day, every day, day in, day out. And same with Nasser's abuse, I never had a red flag go up. I thought it was normal. So we get back to his room. He's a good cop. He was the kindest, most lo. Gentle, wonderful man at the time. And so you've got the good cop, bad cop dynamic. John breaks us down, sends us back to Larry. Larry's nice to us, warm to us, lets us talk, lets us joke around. And that's the dynamic of how a pedophile got away with this for 30 years.

So I'm just trying to understand in a kid's brain, it's this good cop, bad cop. The evil man is the coach. The nice, caring person is this man that's examining us and helping us. So you start creating this. I want to be around him. I'm assuming you feel safe with him.

He was the safe one. Yep. And the relationship, you know, I went to Larry's wedding. He was in our lives. He came to my birthday parties. You know, it was. It was not the. You go into a clinical doctor's room, and all of a sudden, you know, this, this and this. It was a friendship. And that's what we call grooming and sexual abuse. They ear trust. They are nice to you. It's the whole good guy predator concept. The guy who you think you would trust with, you know, your. Your. Your child, quite literally, that would never hurt a fly. Those are the serial pedophiles that I now sue in my work as a lawyer.

So I'm assuming in the psychology of it, in a. In a warped way, they actually. They do care about you, but in a sick way, like they. So it's not so much. And that's why it feels real to a kid, because I'm understanding that they. They really genuinely do care. They care. They're just showing it in very sick ways and not. Not knowing what to do with that. Those emotions is what I'm understanding.

Yes. And it's manipulative, caring. It's caring for yielding a result, which is their sexual pleasure.

So when did this goes south? So he's. You thinking he's caring about me. He's the nice one. He's adjusting me. When did this start going? This is. Something's not right here.

I'm embarrassed to say, but not embarrassed because there's no shame in this. 36 years old when two other girls came out and my teammate texted me a headline of saying this was sexual abuse. So I saw Larry for the last time at 25 years old. First year law student, Ivy League graduate. You would think I had some wherewithal. I go back to Michigan State and I'm abused yet again. He gives me some loose shorts. I'm going to fix your back. Your right hip is always messed up. I'm going to do my thing. Right. I go about my life, but my life goes into a serious decline. I start withdrawing from the world. There was a period of seven years where I didn't really come out. Going to Rite Aid to fill a prescription gave me so much anxiety, it would take me days to work up to it. And this is normal repercussions of childhood abuse and trauma, especially when your brain never clicks into something's wrong. I had physical manifestation, stage four endometriosis. I lost all but 10% of one ovary, which caused massive fertility issues. Right. So it's all, you know, intertwined it all, you know, But I couldn't say, well, here's the reason, Right?

Yes.

So an article comes out. I don't even need to open the link. It says, larry Nassar, USA gymnastics doctor, accused of sexual abuse. And right in that split second, the entire paradigm of my life explodes. You know, I knew internally that what was going on with me and had been going on with me was that I had teammates who went right to his defense. You know, no, that was treatment. He wasn't hurting us. He loved us. And both were totally normal.

They wanted to believe it. They wanted to believe it was good intentions. Was he actually having sex with. With girls? Was he doing so it wasn't that.

It was vaginal and anal digital penetration with an ungloved hand. Wow.

And you're thinking it's treatment. I've got to trust.

Yeah. And he's moving in the way he spoke. He's moving this ligament. He has to press here to loosen that. And it's going to internally loosen this and your hip and that, your lower back. It wasn't until 37,000 images of child pornography were recovered from his trash can about to go out that day, that the. The community and My other teammates started to believe that wrong.

So lots of this is really hitting me in a lot of places because this is what I'm. What's coming up for me is that so many people normalize because they think, well, it's not sex. It's not. He's not. We're not. He's not having sex with us. That's not. So this is medical. This is a doctor procedure where it's actually not. But you are. You're convincing yourself that maybe you are wrong for thinking something's wrong.

Yeah. And I think that's typical for all survivors. It must be me. Something's wrong with me. What did I do to desert? You know, I must have asked for it some way somehow that, that, those things, that shame, right. That guilt of. It must have been me. The self hatred that goes on for decades for people who are abused as children. And I think it's very universal theme that when people come out, the first others do is say they're lying, they're confused, something's wrong with them. We see it in all these cases. They just want money. That's common. And that's why people don't report, Right? Because there's a victim blaming, victim shaming that went on until, you know, the child porn images, including those of Larry's own children, were recovered where the community's tune started changing and they started believing us. But it should not have taken that for the community to believe victims. You know, we see that in all the big cases in the news, right? The first reaction, especially when it's somebody we love. You know, this actor, Matt Lauer, right? We love him. We have our coffee with him every morning. Not our Matt. You know, newsflash, you don't know him. You know, we don't know what happens behind closed doors with anybody.

And I'm assuming, like you said, they the that good guy, predator, they're master manipulators at this. So they know how to get people to like them. They know how to get people to trust them. And of course, that is an engaging. So I'm assuming like all the parents probably liked him. Loved, love.

They hated John Getter. They loved Larry Nassar. I mean, my mom had Larry attending doctor's appointments with her because he would say, I'm going to take care of this after we leave the doctor's office. So I just want to hear what the doctor says, right? That's him earning my mom's trust. So when Larry invited me over to his apart apartment to participate in a medical study, For Michigan State University. My mom dropped me off there. I was 12, he was 20 something. Just. Larry.

Yeah, this is, this is crazy. Parents listening, lots of red flags. That man that we think is, you know, females too, I mean, or woman.

Yeah, yeah.

So how is, was your coach knowing this was going on? Was he participating in this?

There's, there's, there's lots of contrast, controversy about that. I say, absolutely, yes. I say, you know, he would come at, he was really the only person that had access to that back room with no windows and a heavy metal door. He would come back there, see little girls face down with nothing but a little washcloth over our butts and say, klein, it's your turn on the bars. Get out here. You know, so, so I'm sorry. But he didn't care what was going on there because Larry would medically clear us when we weren't supposed to be medically cleared. You know, I got a arm surgery and I had a cast and I walked into the gym. John Gettert said, larry, get that cast off of her. She's competing this weekend. He sawed off my cast not once, but twice to push me back out to compete to win gold medals, to, you know, get John Gettert closer to his Olympic dream. And he got there. It worked to some extent. He got there.

And you're thinking, he really cares about me, he cares about my future. He's doing this for me.

Yeah. He just wants me to win and then I can get closer to my dreams. And yeah.

When this all came out, were you hesitant to be part of it?

Initially, yes, I was very hesitant. I had a two year old little girl, I had a big career. You could find me on the Internet. I had worked my ass off to be something in life. And though I was very empty and anxious, I was barely getting by, but yeah, and then, you know, community in Lansing is small. And so I'm like, well, if I join this and my mom's friends will find out and then they'll think she wasn't a good mom. And so I have to protect her. It was very convoluted. And at Larry's sentencing hearing, I was a Jane Doe. I was victim125. And there were a lot of cameras there. And listen, I was going to have one shot to say what I wanted to say. That was personal. I mean, that was the most intimate moment in my life. I did not want cameras. I didn't want to be a news story. I didn't want to be trivialized. So I was A Jane Doe. And I planned to stay a Jane Doe until ESPN asked me to come out publicly live on television, on ABC tv, for the ESPY Awards and accept that award. And the only reason I said yes to that was they framed it to be about courage and a legacy. Not about being a victim, but about having the courage. And when they said that, I dissolved into a pile of tears and haven't looked back into terms of being public.

But it's really hard what a reframe, though that. Because that is who you are and it is a reframe and it just gives you intel into the victim mindset that until we reshape that to wait. Actually, I am having courage and I'm a hero and this has happened to others, and I'm going to be a voice of that. I think that is the reframe. So I love that they did that for you.

Yeah, it was. It was amazing. And, you know, I've heard from so many people, I represent people that said that night, watching all of you on stage and listening to you at the S gave me courage to pick up the phone and call the police or call whoever. I really wanted that to be about the person sitting at home alone, wondering what the hell to do and feeling like they were alone and terrified and all these things. And I've heard, you know, just the ripple effect of 1 or 2 or 10 or 50 people using their voices. And I think then we could have the Me Too movement. And. And now it's not a negative to come out and say, I'm a survivor of sexual abuse. It's not a scarlet letter anymore. It's a courageous, brave act which, you know, we all pass the baton. One person's story helps the next helps the next helps the next. Yes. When you.

What made you. Because you said you were in school becoming a lawyer at 25, and that was your last. It was also your last time with Larry Nassar. That was the last time. So at that time. But you didn't know then that in law school you were going to be a voice for this.

No way. I didn't know until, you know, sort of after the ESPYs, where I kept getting asked to talk and I was, you know, one of the oldest, I mean, if not the oldest survivor of Nassar, some of these girls could have been my children. You know, I went to United States Congress and held the hand of an 11 year old who was also 8 years old at the time she was abused by Larry Nassar. And so that put it in context and I felt a responsibility to be the articulate, strong, brave voice for them because they were still so young and still healing. And so I realized I could do it. And so it just became clear that this is my journey and this happened to me, but now I have to get out there and make sure it doesn't happen to others.

So I'm imagining now, as an attorney that fights for this, you literally put your cape back on. It's like. Because you could feel where they're coming from. So you're. It's a personal agenda also trying to help vindicate this 100%.

And it's such an important piece of my healing journey to make sure that my story had some purpose to it. It didn't just happen in vain. Now I can say, listen, I know exactly what you're feeling. You're scared. You feel this legal processes arduous and confusing. And whatever I've got you, your job is to sit back, relax, and take care of yourself. It's my job to, you know, be the stronger, you know, louder one now. The bigger bully. It's our turn to be the bigger bully. And you are the plaintiff and your abuser, and the entities who enabled them are the defendant. And that. That's really empowering. And to see them, I always promise them when they first call, I'm going to leave you better off than how I found you. I promise.

Do you have mixed feelings towards Larry Nassar? Now, I know that might be a weird question, but, like, I'm sure there's a lot of. I'm assuming there's a lot of hate and anger, but there also still is this. He was part of my life. Do you ever battle that in your mind?

I love that you asked that. I have worked on that very hard. I don't have hate and anger. What I've come to is that you can love somebody, and there could have been some genuinely great things about him, and he can be an evil pedophile at the same time. It's not black and white. The two things can coexist. And being able to recognize that and allow for that in my psyche has made a world of difference because I felt pushed towards rage and anger and hatred and. And that doesn't serve me right. At the end of the day, then I'm just a raging, angry person walking around in the world. Right. I can recognize that there were some good times and there was some kindness from him, and he was a pedophile and harmed me and had an agenda. They coexist. It's complicated. And if I was pushed into a black or white paradigm, I wouldn't be able to heal. To just accept it's complicated has been really liberating for me. So hard for people to understand, but. But really liberating.

I think. I think it's not as hard to understand as you think, because most people have encountered in their life. Maybe it's not a predator, but either a narcissist. There's other personality disorders that people learn to placate. Right. So, like, I happened to have somebody super close to me that was narcissistic, and I, over the years learned. I thought that that was great about them and loved that. You know, like, I learned to make it normal.

Yeah.

So I think that. My guess is that that's what happens with victims of abuse, is you. You normalize it. You're trying to make sense of it. So you almost get protective and normalize it.

Yes, totally. Yes. I think my. My more complicated feelings were against my coach. That's the person I hated because I blamed him for breaking us down and then sending us into that back room. So desperate. Touch and kindness. And so that was the one that I really struggled with more. But again, you know, he. I have to forgive for. I don't have to do anything. I take that back. I choose to forgive. And that's, you know, impacts how I go about my life. Not. It has nothing to do with him. Right.

What do you want? Parents? Because there's a lot of parents listening that have kids that are dancers or gymnasts or. And they're doing that, they're dropping them up. What do you want them to know? What are the warning signs?

Yeah. That's so important. So this concept of good guy predator, you know, they're. Very rarely does a case come across my desk or a prosecutor's desk where it's this scary guy in a black trench coat wandering around, you know, playgrounds. That's not who it is. It's the guy on the school board. Larry Nassar was on the school board.

Several.

It's really strange. Several of the perpetrators in my cases were on the school board. Churchgoers, pillars of their community. Just the most loved and beloved people. They were helpful. They were kind. So the concept of good guy predator, it's never the one you think it is. It's the one who earns your trust and has groomed you and your children. I say this, and I'm an eternal optimist, but I say, when you walk into your kid's school, who's the favorite teacher A favorite coach who's the one going above and beyond volunteering to drive your kid home, spending extra time with them, hey, you know, I really think they're great at basketball. Can they meet me after school? I'm going to train them extra. The ones that are. That are paying almost more attention to your child than you are, that's the guy or the female. And I have so many cases of male survivors where it was a female teacher, a female coach, and that. And that's the thing also, you know, and that's not to be over. To encourage people to just distrust everybody. But nobody should be. No adult should be spending time with your children alone, one on one. I don't believe in that. I love that you brought this up.

As a red flag because I think in the world of such busyness, parents are looking for, they're like, oh, I can trust this adult. This is great. This adult's gonna help me. And that's so dangerous because if you think about it, why on earth would a normal, healthy adult be that interested in your kid? Like, really, like, we had our own kids.

Kids.

I mean, I'm friendly to my friend's kids, but not to the point where I'm going to be, you know, wanting to spend every minute with them and do that. So I think it's such an important point to bring up that that can be a red flag because no one's looking at that as the red flag. But that is just in itself a red flag that someone wants to spend more time with your kids than you do.

Amen. Exactly right. And we take it as, my kid must be special or super good at basketball or whatever. It's our job as adults to protect our kids. There are lots of things kids we can teach our kids to say and la and whatever, but at the end of the day, you know, as an adult, I wouldn't drive my kid's friend in a car alone. That's not appropriate. I would have somebody, another adult there. Not just two kids, but I would have another adult because that keeps the child safe. Checks and balances. Any adult that wants to be alone with a child, huge red flag. Any adults that pay extra attention, huge red flag. And, you know, just. You hit the nail on the head. We're busy. We love being able to drop our kids off and pick them up two hours later, that's not a good idea. I don't recommend that. And just also teaching our kids language and body autonomy. I'm in charge of my own body. Giving the proper words for penis. And vagina. I'll share a horrible story. Recently there was a little girl in elementary school trying to disclose to her teacher saying, my daddy ate my cookie and I didn't like it. And the teacher thought nothing of it. And the kid just went in a downward spiral. Urinating in school, you know, acting out. And they finally put it together. But teaching our kids the proper language is really important so that we catch it when the child's trying to share.

But they're saying the wrong terminology. So no one's understanding that it's a red flag. Flag.

Exactly.

Wow. Wow. Oh, lot. Lots here. What do you think of gymnastics as a whole and that community for kids now?

Do you.

Are you scared of it? Do you think it's. This was just a one off situation?

No, it's not safe. We're still in litigation with USA Gymnastics in the United States Olympic and Paralympic Committee who have taken zero responsibility for this cover up. Simone Biles, Ali Raisman, Maggie Nichols and Michaela Maroney. I sat with them in front of the United States States Senate Judiciary Committee in Washington a few weeks ago where they literally had to tell their stories again. We've been to Congress before and it was disclosed that the FBI put this in fake testimony and put this report in a drawer over money and potential jobs for executives. Right. We're still in litigation. Nothing's changed. The sport is not safer. I love gymnastics for kids. It's fun. You get your wiggles out, as my daughter would say. But anybody associated, any gym associated with USA Gymnastics is not properly regulated or safe. And we've seen that in so many Olympic sports. We have figure skating cases, swimming cases, taekwondo cases, speed skating cases, that women's soccer players just came out two weeks ago. National team members saying we were abused by our coach and we were too scared to report. So safety in sport and safeguarding in sport is something I'm working very hard on with Congress right now. Because what is set up in terms of safeguarding isn't working and is really just a marketing ploy. And I know that sort of from the inside. And so until this whole thing is burned down and restructured, I don't feel comfortable. Listen, my daughter takes swimming lessons. I go and I sit my ass right there and I watch the whole thing. Yeah.

Doesn't matter if they say I change.

Her into her thing. I put her in the pool and I watch the whole time and I walk her back into the locker room. So kids can do sport and there are wonderful people in sport. But just keep your eye. Cause It's a top down problem. And so the landscape hasn't changed, I hate to say.

And for those of that don't know what happened to Larry now.

Oh, he's in prison the rest of his life, never getting out. 60 years on his federal child porn charges and 175 years on his state charges. And again, my coach died by suicide at a rest stop on the way to his arraignment after being charged with 24 counts of child abuse abuse.

And his abuse came from enabling this or from how he treated you all abuse.

His acts of abuse towards children, not for enabling Larry, but for his actual acts of hitting children, breaking their bones, you know, hurting them physically. That's why he was charged. And, and he knew he was guilty and he knew he was going to be another Nasser in prison the rest of his life. So being the narcissist and arrogant son of a bitch that he was, he said, nobody puts me in jail. And he committed suicide.

Has Larry Nassar ever acknowledged what he did? Has he ever apologized, ever tried to.

Nope. He still believes he did nothing wrong. He is still attempting to appeal his sentence. He's doing all sorts of manipulation from inside lockup. We are paying zero attention to him. And, and so, you know, he's never getting out. His, his, his destiny is clear. But true to narcissistic form. Right. These guys to the end believe that, you know, what they were doing was, was okay.

Yes. That's one thing about narcissists. They do believe, they truly believe that. They don't see the wrong in it. Any, any guesstimates. I know this is like a really out there question, but I'm just curious because you've been around this so much and helping so many people. Any guesses on what creates this in a person? Like what causes them to do this? Was it done to them, do you think?

You know, I do, I do suspect that. I do believe that hurt people, hurt people. Right. And so I'm sure somewhere along the line these two children were harmed in their childhood and there were unfulfilled needs. And you know, as children we all have, have, we all have primal needs. And when those aren't met, things can go terribly wrong. But that doesn't let somebody off the hook. You know, I had unfulfilled needs. You had. Even if we were Beaver Cleaver, there were things about, you know, our parents, patterns that were either living out in life or we are rebelling strongly against and bringing into our adult lives. And so, you know, that's, that that's just because we're human. And so, you know, I don't, I was hurt terribly as a child and you don't see me reliving the pattern. So I think some people are just, are just destined to carry that and repeat the pattern. And others of us say, I'm going to break the fucking cycle and I'm going to do it better.

So good. Can, where can people, can people, people hire you? Can they work with you? How does that. Do they have to be in state with you? How does that work? Because I'm sure there's people listening going, okay, I need, I need her in my lane. How does that work?

I love that. So our firm, we take cases all over the country because we, we can partner with local council if we're, if we're not licensed there. And our firm is called Manley stewart.com Man L Y S T E W A R T I'm all over social media. Instagram, Sara, Twitter, SG underscore Klein. I answer my DMs. I'm not going to leave that person who has the courage to reach out on Instagram hanging. Even if there's nothing I can do for you, I will respond. I find that to be really, really important.

Maybe a book coming out for me, Sarah.

Ah, you never know. I hope so. Yes, I would love that. And it will never be a story of hard knocks. It will never be story of, of here. I want to, you know, get into graphic detail about all the horrible things that happened to me. It's a universal message that we all go through shit at different times in our life and it's about how we pick ourselves up, recognizing that we're human. And you know, I might look bright and shiny, but I still get, get in the trenches and work on my healing process day in and day out. And so I'm normal, I'm just like everybody else. And so for your listeners, whatever you're going through, I know you can do it. And I stand with you, I stand behind you. I believe in you. So great.

Sarah, thank you so much for doing this today.

Oh, so fun. Thank you.

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