Histamine, Mast Cells, MCAS, and Our Nervous System

Histamine reactions, mast cells, what does that all mean? And where the heck does it come from? And why does it seem like histamine problems can come out of nowhere in midlife especially? And what does this have to do with toxic load, how we're aging, how we're healing, and what can we do about it? Is it a food allergy? Is it something we can overcome? What do we need to know? Today I have one of my favorite people on as a guest, Dr. Jesse, MD. Like, we love talking to Jess. Now, I personally am friends with her, so unfortunately I have her phone number, whether that's what she might say, because when something's going on, I happen to have a lot of friends that are doctors and she is one that is this. I don't even know how to call. You're like a surgeon to what's going on. Like, you're really good at getting in there and figuring out what is the thing that no one else is seeing in you and what do we got to do about it. So that's I'm going to call you. You're like a surgeon of figuring out what's going on. Just that's what I'm going to call you. Has anyone ever called you that?

No. You're pretty creative. I like that. Actually. No one has ever said anything like that to me before.

So Jess is an actual md, but she is a true functional md, like the far one side of the spectrum, the far another side. And she really uses that a whole gamut. She is not set in it's only this way or it's only that way. She is truly somebody who practices really good medicine. I feel like she is why a lot of people originally get into medicine. She gets this and she really is into finding what is really, really going on, not what you think is going on. And the reason I wanted to bring her on is I recently with, after going through a ton of stuff as you all have been listening to my podcast, you know, I mean, I had a surgery and then I went to Bali and I got the dreaded Bali belly. And then I had something I had never experienced in my life, which was a hive reaction. So I feel like I educated myself and basically gave myself a PhD in histamine and a PhD in mast cells. And I thought, okay, I am not the doctor expert here. Let's have Jess, Dr. Jess, come on and answer all these questions and help give us an education about what's really going on with those things. So thank you, Jess, for having this conversation with me.

No, thank you for having me on. I'm honored with that introduction. How sweet. So, yeah, and great topic. I think it's really trending right now.

So let's start with what the frick is histamine? Like, what does that come from? And is that just mean you have allergies? Like, what does it mean? What does it come from?

Well, histamine is a specific type of this noxious substance that's produced by cells called mast cells. And they are one of the first defender cells. So when their job is to protect you. So if your body sees a thought or any sort of pathogen or toxin, anything that the body sees as a foreign intruder that shouldn't be there has the potential to let mast cells release one of the substances that they contain, which is histamine. And histamine, depending on where it's released, can have a multitude of symptoms. So it's sort of a catch all because your mast cells are everywhere, right? So this reaction can happen anywhere in the body. And so histamine, you know, most people think allergies, right? Sneezing, you know, itchy, watery eyes, itching maybe. And that's just the tip of the iceberg, if you will. In my opinion. There's a lot of other symptoms too, that can come with that.

So talk about hives specifically and where. And some people get them, they've had them their whole life. Like, things react. Some people get them from certain foods, some people, they get an attack of hives after an event. Like, what is that? And why do some people get them in, like, certain areas of their body and some people get, like their whole body covered in them?

Well, I'll give you an example, and it's kind of embarrassing, but I'm going to share because people will be like, oh, that happened to me. Or I can relate and say some way. So probably like three or four months ago. I live in Florida, where it's really hot and fleas are definitely a problem here. Especially if you have an animal and the dog bought fleas back in. I got a hang of it. But before then I got bit and my skin flared up. I thought it was like my first eczema outbreak. That's what it looked like, right? Because that's what histamine looks like. It looks like eczema and hives on the skin. And it was terrible. Where my lymph nodes were, back of my neck, armpits, you know, stomach, groin area, it was terrible. So that is just one thing that it can do on the skin. Now everyone's Different. Sometimes people get that hair brushing up against their skin and get dermatographia, where it welts up and it itches like a hive in a local area. That's even a histamine reaction. And so if you have histamine release in the skin or mast cell that affects your skin, you'll have eczema outbreaks, you'll have hypervigilant skin, you'll have hives. And sometimes people react to that as a foreign intruder, you know, that they see. Maybe they have food poisoning, maybe they, you know, have a parasitic infection briefly, in time, maybe they have heavy metal exposure that the skin is trying to get rid of. And so that's really how different people react. And even the nervous system, if you don't feel safe, can elicit symptoms like this for people, even on the skin.

So when you hear people that deal with anxiety getting hives, can you explain that a little more? Because you just said the nervous system. So why is that connected? And why does that anxiety trigger the hive?

I would say to you, honestly, after years and years of experience, and especially since COVID we've had seen a lot more histamine. And, you know, when people unfortunately have histamine outbreaks and just don't do well, they start to have a multitude of different symptoms. And so nervous system dysregulation is the number one reason for histamine outbreak, in my experience, over time. And that's unfortunate because these people really, with anxiety, you gotta think. Your body thinks you're running from a bear, basically, and it doesn't know the difference between your thoughts and sometimes a physical reaction in real life. And so thoughts release certain neurotransmitters. They can release adrenaline, they can release cortisol, and then the body reacts. That's a foreign intruder. That's a signal, a chemical signal from the body that you're in trouble and the body protect you. It's going to start releasing its chemical defenders in your honor, right? And that's protecting you. So your thoughts can be the best part of you or the worst part of you if you're not the observer of your own thoughts. And sometimes people come in and they tell me, my mind is cool and calm as a cucumber. It's my body that doesn't feel safe. Or I'll ask them that question and they'll say, yeah, I feel great up here, but my body feels uncomfortable and unsafe. And that's something to be said, too. That also is a big reason that people will have, you know, palpitations that's a histamine response in the vagus nerve circulatory system. So when you.

When you get a hive outbreak, and I'm going to ask you a lot of questions about nervous system here in a minute. And also gut connection and just. And die off. And I have so many questions I have for you, but let me kind of start with when you have a histamine reaction. So you. And I'm talking hives specifically. So you break out with hives wherever they are on your body. For me, it happened to be around ankles and wrists specifically, which was interesting. When you have that. Is it kind of like when you have a fever and you want your body to run its course and let it. Let it. Like your fever is getting it out or like if you have diarrhea and you don't want to stop it, like you want it out of you, or is it important to get the histamine to stop? Like take a Claritin or take a Zyrtex, like how much is like you want that or you want to stop it?

Great question. So I would say it's really difficult for me to answer that in a black and white yes or no answer. You know, just straight answer for you. And the reason is because you really want to know why you're having the histamine reaction to begin with. If, let's say it's due to a pathogenic exposure like food poisoning, then yeah, you might want to let it ruin its course. But the body can't push out the bowels. It often pushes out the skin. And so if the histamine is due to a toxin or pathogen exposure, then yeah, it's doing its job of setting off the inflammation cascade, which is its defense mechanism to get rid of things when there's a problem within the body. You know, that's the reason we have bowel movements, is to get out toxins, right? So it makes sense. He's the smartest doctor out there. We've just misunderstood it for years now. If you're having hives and you know, skin reactions and loose stools because, you know, in flight or fight every day in your. In your head, so you're fighting a bear every single day. Your body thinks it's going to war, or, you know, your body doesn't feel safe because it's had some sort of traumatic exposure, that your brain is processed but your body hasn't, then we need to get a little more control in the histamine response.

Is it okay to take something like a Claritin or Zyrtex, short term, if it's driving you crazy and you're itching or whatever. Or like even those creams you put on, like the cortisone cream.

Yes. Now just be aware, you know, there are reactions and consequences to every decision in life. Right. No medicine is benign, even if it's over the counter. So there are long term side effects. But, you know, I would worry more about steroid cream for people, and that's usually not in the short term, but in the long term because that stuff is so effective. It could be pretty addictive.

Really? Okay.

Yeah. I mean, you know, if you're having these really embarrassing eczema outbreaks and that takes it away rather immediately, it's really hard not to go back to. It sure happens again. And then the one thing that can happen is the topical steroid withdrawal. It doesn't happen to everyone, but I've met quite a few people, it does happen too. And they're coming to me for relief from that afterwards.

Okay, so you're saying. So I'm hearing you correctly, short term, to get you out of the discomfort, you're okay with these things, but you're still saying you got to figure out what's driving the trigger because you can't be on them forever. So, like, you can't just say, I'm going to take Claritin every single day the next, you know, rest of my life. That's not an answer.

No. You know, like, I don't even want people on a supplement for the rest of their, their lives. The goal is to understand the body and get it back to homeostasis as best we can. Nothing is perfect in this world, obviously.

But yeah, what about histamine containing foods? And my gosh, I got an like, literally a PhD education here. There's a lot of them. Like, I didn't know that bone broth, which I drink daily is loaded with histamines. But. But it's also good for you. I also didn't know that reheating leftovers loaded with histamines. I didn't know that. One of my favorite proteins, shellfish loaded with histamines. So I got a fermented foods, which we think good for our gut, loaded with histamines. So what is that about? Like, should we not be eating histamine foods? Is it just temporary when you're having a reaction? Like, help me understand that?

Yeah, I would say especially temporary of having some sort of histamine reaction, which maybe we should go over those in a minute too. You Know, very important to know those foods, especially if you're just hyper vigilant with your immune system. You're very allergic, asthmatic in general. Those are histamine type symptoms. So be careful with the foods you just listed. Even, like healthy things people think of, like avocado, it's got some histamine, right? Like what? Like all the foods that are super healthy, you know, so then, you know, you give people a low histamine guide. They're like, what do I eat? This is like my whole diet. So, you know, it's not. Again, that's a band aid. It's not long term. You know, if you're having an outbreak or an acute symptom. Yeah, back off reheating leftovers. We shouldn't do that too much anyway, you know, so. But you know, stuff like that that, you know, has a little more histamine in it. Be careful with during an acute reaction. But this low histamine diet for the rest of your life is not very sustainable for a lot of people.

No, I was like, what? These are my favorite foods. What do you mean I can't eat any of this?

Yeah, that's not root cause for me, you know. Yeah, the body's really healthy. It's resilient. Like, you can have a cheat meal once a week or you can have a histamine food every day. And your body shouldn't be reacting to that. If it is, that's not really root cause.

So just like, do you in general, like, you just made a comment about we shouldn't reheat leftover as much. Like, do you in general, like just in general, well being, health advice, people being on a lower histamine diet or. No, only if this is coming up.

Yeah, only if this is coming up. You know, I think that, you know, really, I think our goal is to be able to have a body that is like a tree in the wind during a storm. Right. So you can have a cheat meal here and there. You can do something like that and come back to homeostasis. I don't think that we should, you know, we should be eating like our ancestors used to. That.

That's the.

And they didn't have a bunch of leftovers probably to reheat all the time. I would say they were eating mostly pretty much right when caught or.

Yeah.

Harvest harvested. Unless it was jarred and pickled or something. So, you know. Right.

So what's funny, So I get back from Bali, just knows this, and I had what's called Bali belly. And the reason is the filtration over there in their food prep. It's just not the same as we are in more developed countries. And it's almost impossible to avoid picking up something. And it's my understanding if you've got a really healthy, strong gut microbiome, many times those things will not survive in your gut. I don't happen to be someone who has naturally really healthy, strong gut microbiome. I mean, thus I have two autoimmunes. Like I, this is something I've really worked on my whole life. So when something comes into me, I'm more likely, unfortunately to get that reaction. Thus all my talks about gut health and things like that. So with me, I got very sick in Bali. I got back, I went out it in type A nervous system overload, which is what you just mentioned. Like, I'm going to do all the things, I'm going to do everything, like everything. I will take ivermectin, I will do, you know, all the kill products. I'll start with Flagyl, which is, we're going to talk about antibiotics in a minute and I'll do my sauna and my detox. I'm like, I'm like, I'll do everything right. So then I get hives and I'm like, what do you mean, what am I getting hives for? Why do I have hives for two weeks? So that's where a lot of this came from and why I'm getting this education. I will tell you that. Because I got my lab test back, just knows this. I found out what I actually got in Bali was E Coli and I got a lot of it. So with E Coli it was exactly what Jess told me when I had texted her. When I texted her about the hives, she said, your body is having a die off reaction to something, whatever you caught in Bali and your body is not detoxing fast enough. Your liver is overloaded and you're getting hives. And she was right. She was literally right. So that's, that's how this even conversation came about. My hives have since stopped. I'm at the time of this recording, we're past that. So let's talk about that. Like, let's talk about what creates some people. Like I just said, I want to go a little deeper there. Why do some people get a strong reaction to something like E Coli? Why do some people's bodies just naturally get rid of it? And then why do some people detox quickly when others it creates that.

Absolutely. You know, there is something to say about a genetic propensity and what genetic variance you might have. And your genes are always responding, responding to the environment. So, you know, the calmer you are, the more settled you are, the better epigenetically your genes will be turned on or off. So I would say some people just besides their genes, it's really what's in their toxin bucket already, how stressed they are at the time. A lot of these pathogens are opportunistic as well. So if your immune system's low or you're stressed out, you haven't slept enough, your diet's poor, all this place, you.

Just had a major surgery like I had.

Yes. That's also a stress on the body. Absolutely. So all this stuff, you know, your body's fighting one thing and then you get exposed to something like a, you know, pathogen, like E. Coli or parasite, it doesn't have the reserves to fight 100% for you any longer. Right. It's already taken up somewhere else. They're simmering something else. It's taken care of. Your mitochondria play a role as well in the immune system. And they make ATP and energy for your body. They can't do everything right. So pick and choose how to perform. And so that based plus the genes are how some people respond during an exposure. And you know, usually your weak drainage pathway will be what suffers the most. For me, that's my skin. Skin and live. I've always suffered that way. If I'm gonna have anything, my immune system's hyper vigilant about anything, it's going to show on my skin. That's just the way.

Okay, so speaking of that and what you just brought out with mitochondria, what I also learned, and I didn't even bring this up to yet, so I'm curious your thoughts. What I also learned by experiment is sitting in front of my red light every day during this made it worse. And I would have thought the opposite. So, so then I go down the rabbit hole on red light and I want to get your thoughts on this, that it could be great with a strong, healthy mitochondria. However, if you are having issues, it can also create more issues. So can you help us understand that?

Yeah. So like I mentioned before, the mitochondria, you know, they, they are involved in, you know, just primitively speaking, not this, they do a lot of different things, but they're involved in immunity and your immune system being strong and robust. They're also involved in making ATP. ATP. You know, not to scar everyone, but if you remember The Krebs cycle and the electron transport chain, you have to have a little bit energy to make a lot more energy. So basically, you know, really, with mitochondria, they have to kind of pick and choose what they can do, Right? So they can't do the immune system, and they can't make ATP or energy very well. They have only 100% of energy to disperse. And so if you're busy with your immune system and during the red light, you're making more ATP, you're turning on your mitochondria, you're charging, recharging, and so then you can't really make ATP and energy and then still fight very well. If you're already in a fight with the immune system, immune system's already preoccupied. So, yeah. So your energy is going here, and then you're trying to recharge the mitochondria, make more ATP. Like, you're in cell danger response, they call it. And cell danger response means you can fight, but you can't make very much energy. This is why people are really fatigued when they have infections or crime.

Jess, did you say this to me, or did I hear it someplace else? I feel like. Did you. Were you the one that said you can't take out the trash if the trash that you're taking it to is already completely full? Was that you that said that, or does that. Does that even resonate?

It sounds like something I would say possibly. I can't. Yeah.

Okay.

For sure. You know, it's like, yeah, if your body's got a bunch of trash, and it's gonna be, like, the slowest buffalo in the herd almost. That's why your body apoptosis, or goes and kills things during what we call autophagy. When you're fasting, it's killing off the slowest cells, the mitochondria that are working well anymore.

Okay.

Death. So you can work better and faster.

Hey, there. If you're finding value in this episode of Midlife Conversations, I would really, really appreciate it if you would hit that, like, button and subscribe. And when that little bell pops up, you want to hit that. That way, you are notified of all new episodes so you don't miss a beat. Also, you. Subscribing and liking helps others find this content. And this allows me to keep growing, keep getting amazing new guests for you and to keep sharing. Okay. Yeah. So that's why sometimes throwing all the biohacking stuff at it could make it worse. If you're in a state of distress. Is that accurate?

Absolutely. Absolutely. People sometimes their body needs to rest to catch up. And you don't listen. We're like, we must. You know, even when we have time off from work, we're not doing work for ourselves or other people. We're still doing. We're still like, oh, I need to be in the sauna, in a cola plunge, doing a pemf, map my red light every morning. Oh, don't forget, you know, whatever else. And it's like your body just wants to chill for a minute.

Yeah.

It doesn't need to be doing all these biohacks all the time. Like, be a human being, not a human doing.

Yeah. I'm totally guilty of that. That was literally what I did. I did all the things. I took everything and I did all the things. And then I was like, literally, like, why am I getting hives? That's why.

Yeah. I mean, you were like, I'm home. I went on vacation. I have all this stuff to catch up on. Your brain was like, yeah. Then you were doing all the.

I will spend four hours a day.

Yeah, right. And then your body was like, I'm going to have a massive panic attack on the skin.

Yeah. I. I think it was also adding to that. You think, like, when you think you should know, like, I think I should know. I'm like, I should know how to. So then that adds more stress. Like, you're like, do, do, do, talk to me about your liver and how, because you kept bringing up sluggish liver or slow liver, or you live support. How does that work with people? And is that also very unique to people? And how do we support liver?

For sure. So the liver is the organ that's responsible for a lot of seasonal allergies and histamine production. Anyway, you know, if you ever itch on your palms or your feet, it's almost always liver stagnation. And doctors are taught that one thing, but that's like the extreme. There's a gradient to these things. So the liver releases a lot of different chemical communicators and noxious substances, and it kind of is over if it overflows. This is what causes seasonal allergies and histamine production for people. And, you know, welcome to Western countries where probably one in three people I see have liver stagnation. I mean, we have a ton of things in the tap water, xenoestrogens, toxins, and the liver is the filter responsible for getting rid of those. So if you don't have, you know, people say, oh, my liver enzymes are normal. You know, blood work hasn't changed in 30 to 50 years. It's not the creme de la creme of lab testing. For the most part. I can, you know, screen people and symptomatology can tell me a lot too. So if you want to know if you have a stagnant liver, it's things like, you know, how do you process alcohol? Do you have two drinks of wine and have a histamine response? Are you have a hangover for two days? Especially if you do it around your period. Are you super sick? Because histamine and estrogen exacerbate each other. Which estrogen goes up right before your period. Right. So people say symptoms will get worse. So that's a clue too. You know, how do you do with caffeine in the morning? Are you like a tweaker if you drink too much? Anxious, panic attacks, stuff like that. And then if I was going to ask you to fast for 24 hours, would you be able to do it without being hangry and occital or lightheaded? Yeah. And that's, you know, the liver's job, to break down big packets of glucose called glycogen into single packets of glucose so you can sustain your blood sugar in between meals. So, you know, the liver does a lot and if you have reactions like that, it lets me know, hey, there's stuff wrong with the liver. You, you may also wake up between 1 and 3am in Chinese.

Yes.

Liver time. You may also had deal with like a short fuse, anger, frustration, jealousy. That's a stagnant liver in Chinese medicine.

So I, the 1 to 3am Want to come back to that for a second here? I mean, that's literally textbook what was happening to me during those two weeks. And a lot of women deal with that. And we get told a lot of reasons that we wake up between one and three. We hear about cortisol, we hear about hormones. Like there's so many reasons. Right. So the liver specifically, what you just brought up there, is it because it's working? Then more like what's the. Was it because parasites are alive? I don't understand. What is that thing between one and three that your liver is actually doing?

You're. That's in Chinese medicine, the time of the organ, which means that's the time it's working the hardest.

Okay.

So if it's having trouble, you're going to be woken up. And also if you're in flight or fight or your blood sugar falls, the cortisol and blood sugar are connected. And so let's Say you have a low blood sugar dip at nighttime, your cortisol spikes and wakes you up. So there's a number of, you know, if the liver isn't processing glucose and glycogen properly, that also plays into cortisol spikes in the nervous system as well. So, you know, also 1 to 3am, if you have a pathogen, like, you might have picked up. Right. It really is the time the liver's trying to filter things out that may have been killed. So, you know, it's really the time that if there's a pathogen in that organization, the organ is working overtime and will wake you up then, too.

Like, which is literally what happened to me at 3. And I would get the hives right then. That was like, no matter what, I was waking up and getting hives around that time.

They were coming up during that time.

Yeah. Yes. Well, I would get them sporadic during the day for about 30 minutes at a time, but I couldn't trigger what was causing it. It was like a random meal or like random reasons it would come. But then it was doing it every night for two weeks. Right. At 3am I'd get the hives and wake me up.

Wow. So, yeah, your liver was over processing, really, having. Struggling to filter things out. You're probably. Were you waking up sweating at all?

Yeah, I thought it was a hot flash, but I'm like, but I'm on estradiol.

Yeah. So it doesn't even make sense. So then the hives, the liver is releasing the histamine and noxious substance to kill and try and help and do things. And it really just woke you up. It's working. Yeah.

So when you say support the liver, what does that actually mean? Like, here I'm drinking tea with milk thistle right now. Because I know that supports the liver. But, like, what do we. Like, what are natural things to do to support the liver? And then, like, where do we actually need to take supplements to support the liver?

Yes. So the liver, you know, some of the things I just mentioned can be screening tools for people. They can kind of see how their liver is doing with some of the emotions and things I just said discussed, besides the physical things, if they want to support it. The liver is a bitter pathway. So bitters in general, I like, you know, things like dandelion, milk thistle, licorice. There's so many things that all those are pretty bitter. Right?

Like digestive bitters, too. Like when you say digestive bitters, is that what that is?

Okay, absolutely. That turns on the gut and the bile pathway. Together, which work together and help digest our food. So you know, you need an acidic stuff stomach and you need alkaline small intestines, which is where the bile is dumped into. And that's what causes that alkalinity. So you can see how the stomach uses both to digest properly and break things down. And so that's why it's important that your bile works and your liver works, because it makes the bile. So besides bitter herbs, I also really like tudca, which is taurourasodeacolic acid. And the T in tadka stands for taurine, which some people may have heard of in the weightlifting community. And it really helps with cognition once it crosses the blood brain barrier. So tudka together is a bile salt and that helps to move the bile, promotes the bile flow, it helps to dissolve sludge and sometimes small enough gallstones for people and really helps to reverse high cholesterol levels as well. In a lot of the published studies, it really helps neurodegenerative conditions as well because of taurine. A lot of published studies with Alzheimer's as well.

So is taco something you take once a day or every meal?

Yeah, you can take one pill usually it depends on the dosage. So you know, two to 500, you can take, you know, one pill twice per day is usually the things. And yeah, it's good to take with a fatty meal because it absorbs with fat.

Okay, you said something that I want to circle back to. You said we have an acidic stomach, but alkaline. What did you say? Alkaline. What?

Small intestines.

Small intestine. Okay, so when someone this just brought up when people take antacids to stop stomach pain, what is that doing and is that now attracting more pathogens? Because if we don't have acid in our stomach, we can't kill stuff off.

Exactly. It's just that logical. So you even alkaline water, I wouldn't want to be drinking that all day long. You want your PH of your got to be around 2 to 3, which is extremely acidic. Now why would that be? Because people have acid reflux. So the pharma industry has really made a billion dollar industry off of antacids and proton pump inhibitors or acid blockers. And you know, that's because so many people have acid reflux and indigestion because of our diets and food sensitivities. The fillers in the diet in America, standard American diet is very poor and people begin to react appropriately their bodies to. And then the pharma industry gives Them acid blocker, which is the wrong thing to do. You want a stomach acid that's 2 to 3 because you want your food to be able to disintegrate and move forward in peristalsis. If it can't have acid to disintegrate, it sits like an anvil in the gut and doesn't really move forward like we want it to. In fact, it can reflux back up. And so much of people's acid reflux is a lack of stomach acid for them. So oftentimes we're all trying to re acidify the gut so that they can start digestion properly.

Okay. This now I'm getting confused. There's a popular biohacker. I'm not going to say their name. That when I was having the histamine reaction, a lot of people said oh follow so and so's protocol. He says take Zyrtec and an acid like a pr. Whatever what you just said. So would that make sense? Because now it's like the opposite. Or am I missing something?

They're treating histamine is what they're doing.

Okay.

And so the, the histamine response, if you're having that is what they're quelling with.

Got it. But the cost of something else.

Correct? Yes, correct. And you know, you got it. Just take the histamine and it would probably be good enough if that Sometimes natural things aren't great. Like Cromolyn is one of my apartments favorite choices that it's a pharmaceutical that I still write a prescription for and I don't do that very often anymore. So. Yeah, I mean that he's treating exactly what the hospital would do if someone came in with anaphylaxis or hives. They would give an acid blocker. They would give a couple antihistamines as well. And that's the protocol at the hospital. So that's standard of care for sure.

And that's where you came from is hospital medicine. You were emergency, you were in that. That whole environment. So that's why you. So you're not anti that in emergency or in specific extreme case. But you have to think of the long term problem.

Correct. Like you wouldn't ever want to give like betaine, HCl or hydrochloric acid to someone who'd had a stomach ulcer before.

Right.

You know that's. It's contraindicated in that instance, for example. So you have to be really careful in your questioning and your tests and things like that. Of course for people. But majority of people have low stomach acid Causing issues. But if you have low stomach acid with historic mean, it's going to look like high stomach acid.

That makes total sense. Okay, got it. Okay, so now I want to ask you about. Just go back to mast cells for a minute. Because mast cells don't always come out as hives. They can come out as a lot of different things. How important is it as for us as midlife women to be really understanding mast cells and what's triggering it and do those build up over time?

Yes. So great question. So what's the difference between mast cell and historical mean? First off, mast cells are these immune cells, the first offender cells. They're found in your lymph, in your connective tissue, in your mucosal lining, which is, you know, inside of your mouth, your esophagus, your stomach lining, your lungs. They're even in the brain and the skin. So they're all over the body. Right. And they don't just have histamine, they have other noxious substances too. So histamine is like a compartment of mast cell, if you will. So. So besides having histamine, mast cells contain things like Tryptase, prostaglandins, cytokines, which are these chemical communicators. And these are the things that set off inflammation cascade, they're the protectors. So they cause swelling in the skin, you know, itchiness, puffiness, weight gain, what people would call it sometimes, you know, closing up a throat, even if there's enough of them, right. If it's such a huge to acute response. So, and you know, really palpitations in the heart, they can cause, you know, interstitial cystitis in the bladder, asthma or wheezing in the lungs, brain fog, anxiety, spaceyness in the brain, you know, itching in the throat. All of this stuff, hives, eczema, all of this stuff is due to a histamine response or mast cell activation syndrome syndrome.

So they're kind of, they're different, but they really do go together, if I'm hearing you correctly.

100.

So I kept reading about something called pea. What is that? And should we all be taking that?

I love, I. I do if now most people who have mast cell PEA is going to be a little bit of a godsend to them. I am actually coming out with a pe, a product that's liquid towards the beginning of next year. So. So because I love it so much. So PEA is an amide that's used in our body, made by our body naturally. It's a natural kind of. It binds to the endocannabinoid system. So it helps with neuroinflammation, nerve inflammation, inflammation in general. It helps to calm down a hyperactive immune system. So it really helps in mold, people who are in mold as well, because it calms down the cytokine storm, which is caused by Covid and by mold. So it also helps with like a lot of nerve pain or improper firing of nerves and neuro inflammation. So brain inflammation for people too, which causes a lot of anxiety, mood disorders, hands, pandas, things like that.

So PEA is something I added right away when you brought up mast cells. And I added two in the morning and two at night. And it's like there's no side effects. It just, I think it really did help calm things down. Just that symbol of a supplement made a big difference. I noticed it like pretty quickly.

I'm really glad, I will say if you, if people dive into their genes and epigenetics, I mean, we can, you know, that's helpful too. Some people have a propensity to really, really need pea and then other people's genes, they have too much and they won't have, you know, such a nice reaction from it. It won't be negative necessarily, but it won't do anything for them either.

Makes sense. Let's talk about antibiotics for a minute. I want to understand this because sometimes it's absolutely necessary. Sometimes I'm wondering if you, or maybe you think it's never necessary, but I, I feel sometimes it's absolutely necessary. But it really does a number on us and not just kills bad things, it kills our good gut bacteria. Like, can we recover from that? Like, and I'll just share, I think I told you this, Jess, before I knew it was E. Coli. We thought it was Gerardia. I was having like really bad stomach issues. My doctor prescribed Flagyl, which is a pretty gnarly antibiotic. Now she prescribed 21 to take over seven days. I took two, only two had. And that's when the hives started and I had a throat closing thing. I was like, clearly my body did not want it. It was, I was allergic to it. I threw it away. I was done with it. But just those two were enough, I believe to create this whole die off cascade and the hives and everything. So one, like, are they ever necessary to, like, why such an overkill? Like, I took two of 21 and it seems to have done, like, help me understand that. And how long does it take to recover from antibiotics?

So, you know, I come from hospital medicine where I wrote IV antibiotics in the hospital for people in acute situations, day in and day out. I do think they're quite overused. We use them in prophylactic situations when things haven't happened, just in case they might happen. Now we know how detrimental they are to the microbiome. It's like napalming the Amazon. Yeah. You know, some people will never get that back. Some people can. And I don't want to put people in a box. You know, it really depends on your genetic predispositions. You know, what kind of microbiome you inherited from your mother and your father, as well as, you know, were you born via C section or vaginally? Because when you go through the vaginal canal, you pick up the microbiome. That helps.

Yeah.

That's why they leave that. They shouldn't wipe the baby down immediately. You know, there's a lot of. Were you breastfed or not? What kind of diet did you grow up on that your immune cells were raised on, if you will? A lot of this matters. And then how many antibiotics you had in childhood really shapes our immune system in adulthood as well. And all that plays a role. And so really, that should all be taken into account when we're giving people antibiotics for things. Because there are herbal alternatives.

Dare I say you also just. I. Every single thing you asked my mom did wrong in childhood. Every single one, except for I was vaginally delivered, but every other thing wrong. So I, I absolutely know. That's why I have celiac. That's. No, I. Why I know I have gut health issues. So something. And you all, if you have that kind of background, like the last two surgeries, I, I told my surgeons and I did not take antibiotics pro, like you said, as preventative. But I promise is if something happened, if I, If I got an infection, I said I would. But we did not take. You don't have to take them just because you're having a surgery. You can ask. So that's important there. But so someone like me or a listener that knows, like, hey, I don't check the boxes on. I mean, I don't have great gut health. I dealt with this a lot. Can they actually recover if they have to take one? Like, if you have an infection and have to, like, what do you have to do to recover from that?

I will say there are alternatives to ear infections, strep throat, UTIs. There are alternatives prophylactically. Okay. As you mentioned, you know, that's. Antibiotics come from mold or that's. They. That's how they discovered Penicillin, which comes from. Wow. Is because they noticed that the mold stopped the bacterial growth in a petri dish, stopped it from growing up. Boundaries. That's how they. Oh, so you know, there are, it comes from nature. There are alternatives, you know that the herbal things that come from stuff like that and bacterias that can kill off things like that when you're in a situation. That's all. I'll say. So yeah, I would say if you have to take an antibiotic, let's say you do have like something post operatively that happens. Or let's say you were, you were in some sort of terrible accident and you were getting. Yeah, you know what I mean? You had to have them.

You have a flesh eating bacteria taking over your skin.

Yeah, like I'm reasonable here. But I think other options should be explored. I think that's just the responsible thing to do. And I do think that most doctors, if they were trained anything like I was in the conventional system. We weren't taught anything about herbs that had any micro, you know, antibiotic activity at all, killed anything at all and were effective as antibiotics. And sometimes we don't need to napalm the gut to kill something off. Sometimes we don't need.

But if you did like, if you had to. So like I just took the 2 flag. Like what can you do like after, do you, I mean do you just load up on prebiobiotics and probiotics and postbiotic, like what do you do?

Yeah, that's a great way. Something to do as well. I also really like, since you just got a gut test, it's really a great way if you have the means to get a functional gut test to see what's going on. It can be really helpful to streamline protocol. For example, like many people are reabsorbing estrogen through the, through the gut, especially if they're not regular bowel movements. And that lends to histamine as well because estrogen and histamine exacerbate each other in this vicious cycle. And so the higher the histamine that you're reabsorbing. Higher. Excuse me, the higher the estrogen you are that you're reabsorbing, that histamine follow suit. So that's important to know. The other thing is the secretory IGA or SIG A on those test soldier cells in the mucous membranes, your gut lining. And we really want those to be high because those are what fight things off for you. Those are what mount a response. Yeah.

So like mine, I'm looking at mine right now. Negative 210 in the red on secretary fight.

Anything in the gut. So, like, there's like, no. Candida's like, I'm gonna come. And this is, like, perfect hospital. I will never be evicted here.

So what do you do? Like, what do you do for that? For that?

I really like, like, mega mucosa or IgG antibodies you can dump directly into the gut lining. They also call that colostrum. But there's also. Okay, if you are allergic to case. You know, they have removed the casein and the lactose. But still, if people are worried about the dairy, you can get. I just IgG immunoglobulins as well, and that's okay.

Is that like a supplement you get?

Yeah, absolutely. So mega mucosa is great. That's by microbiome labs. And. Okay, that's really a good one, too. And so if you're having trouble with your gut, you want to look at the acidity of the stomach, you want to look at tud cuff for the bile, and then you want to look at something to replace the soldier cells in the gut, too. If you have. Especially if you have a test that shows you need that.

Honestly, Jess, I'm thinking at this point of just having a freaking fecal transplant. What are your thoughts on that? Tell people what you know about that. Because I'm like, I've been working on my gut for, I mean, how many decades now, and I. The opportunist stuff, keeps finding it. What do you know about. Is that a real thing, fecal transplant? Is it really work?

It really works. It really works because you're repopulating the gut with diversity again.

Yeah. This is like, why have you done that with patients? Or have you sent patients to do that?

I just really looked at the studies. Yeah. I've seen patients who've done it post the fecal transplant, and they just.

You guys, if you don't know what it is, I'll give you a little. It's kind of gross. It sounds really gross. But it's basically, you're. They. There's like a whole business around this. They find people that have literally perfect gut microbiomes, like the ones that never were given an antibiotic. They have perfect microbiomes. They test, and they basically take their poop. It's real. They take their poop and they do something to it. I don't even know what. I guess they clean it up somehow, and they take the good bacteria from their poop and they put that good bacteria poop in somebody who has terrible gut biome and it. And you do it for like some protocols are like a week, two weeks. Some protocols are 30 days. Some protocols, you're swallowing the pill, which I don't even know psychologically. I just could not. I could not. Anyways, I actually know somebody personally who did it. Like she did it. It fixed all her gut issues. That's all I know at this point about it. I'm like half joking, but I'm kind of half considering it seriously.

90 to 100% success rate, I think. Oh my God, it's wild. The stats on it. Like I've seen the studies. So yeah, it's kind of wild. Honestly, Natalie. Like it works every time.

Yeah. I might actually have to. As long as I don't have to eat it, I can't swallow it.

A rigorous like protocol, they put people on like you have to fail antibiotics three times or something like that. Like they.

Yeah.

Put you through the wringer. So yeah.

Yeah. It's a whole thing and it's not cheap. And that's all the information I have on that part. Okay, let me go to. Let's go back to non fecal transplants. Okay. So this is super helpful here. And I know Jess just started her own supplement line and I. And I want to. This is not like, this is not a paid episode here. This is not like a sponsored thing or anything. But I want to share. She. I've had her on the show before. The reason she started a supplement line is because she couldn't find some of the ingredients like and some of the things she mentioned she doesn't have in her supplement line yet. That's why she's mentioning other brands and things. But can you help us understand? Like I wanted to. I want to talk specifically about like Tudka Binder. Like what binders do. You talked about Tadka. But what binders do and then clear af because those three specifically relate to the topics we're talking to. Can you just share a little bit about why you created those products and why, why we should look at those.

Yes. So really the thing I have to treat with people the first month or two that I see them is their nervous system dysregulation. And it shows in their body and it shows in their chronic illness. All spirals out from a dysregulated nervous system because there's just not a pill.

Yeah.

Thing that it does.

I'm sorry.

So most of the time people have been so traumatized in their mind or their body. One or the other is out of sorts and not in homeostasis, then no protocol will stick. So I really have to catch them the first month. Which is why I created Clear af. It's why I created, you know, like elemental edge and minerals to all that stuff is really regulating the nervous system. And Clear AF is stands for aegis formulas, by the way, you guys. So it dissolves on the tongue like a Listerine breath strip. And it's really useful. It has something called gmi ganoderma immunomodular protein and that is really important. And also vitamin D3. So it's really important for grounding the nervous system and calming down mast cells and inflammation in general, allergies, all that kind of stuff. So people, it's nice because it's convenient. You can just carry it on, you put it on the tongue, it dissolves pretty readily. And then people can kind of calm down a little bit in their mind or their body.

And that's the calm AF or that. Which one was that? That does that.

That's the clear.

The clear one does that. Okay, the clear because you have a calm. What's the difference between that and the calm?

The calm is really also just to get you in a Zen state. Clear is going to body, right. So it's going to show more allergies with a histamine type of response. Calm is going to be more for the mind. Right. So they're both working.

Got it.

Aspects of the nervous system, for sure.

Okay, explain binders.

So binders. So binders are one of my favorite things to use. They're sort of my magic trick for people, to be honest with you. And you know the eczema outbreak I was told talking about earlier, I got rid of it using seven binders twice per day for three days. Now I'm someone who's really robust. I'm not sensitive, so I can take stuff like that. Not everyone can do that. Just as a disclaimer to everyone who's out there listening. But in general, binders act like sponges. So they mop things up. So if you have a lot of histamine response, a lot of prostaglandins, chemical communicators, stuff that's hyper vigilant out in their bloodstream and lymph and all that stuff causing the reactions, binders can kind of mop some of that up. They can mop up diaphragm pathogens, they can mop up some toxin exposure. So it's really important since we're exposed every day and the society is pretty Toxic to really, you know, make sure I take, you know, a binder. As long as I'm replacing minerals. I take binders quite frequently.

So binders are a little bit confusing to me. So I just want to ask you here. So we've all heard of like a charcoal binder or like there's like certain ones that we've heard of like just take charcoal. That's like a general one you get at sprouts or whatever. But then you hear like you have to take it away from other supplements and food. And but then you'll have like some of these big companies that have like their brand. They're like, well you could take this one with food and supplements. Like what ingredients in a binder do we really want to look for and should we be taking it away from other things?

So it depends on what the binder ingredients are. I wish again I could give a straightforward like black or white answer for people, but just depends. It does depend on the company and what they're using. So ones that you don't have to take away so far from food or at all as much or fulvic and humic acid binders.

Okay.

That's because they don't bind typically. Like other things. They do act as a binder. They also act as a driver. They have a lot of micronutrients in them. They drive things into the cell and they turn on anti cancer pathways like the Nerf.

And that's the one a lot of my listeners use. Be minerals. Like we. That's what's in that.

Correct.

So that explains why you don't have to take that away from food.

Exactly. If you're taking something like a Z light or benzo, like clay or an activated charcoal, then yeah, it's going to bind up a lot of minerals. It doesn't really provide a whole bunch of its own minerals. So you really want to be careful with what you're actually taking and really follow the instructions depending on what the ingredient is.

Okay, so your binder, do you have to take that away from food or can you take that whenever?

So we do recommend that one away from food. A little bit more actually should go grab it. I have it right over here. So here is total tox binder.

Okay.

So yeah, so the reason you want to take this one away from food is it does have humic and fulvic acid in it. So those act as a driver, they provide minerals. But it has a lot of other things in it too. So chlorella, you know, cilantro, those help to pull metals out of the body through the drainage pathways that should be open when you're taking this. It has shilajit and humic acid as well. And then the one thing, thing that really you want to take away from food and things are psyllium husk, which is something you don't always see in binder formulas.

Okay, now that's interesting about psyllium husk because. Husk, because I take that daily. I take like two scoops of it. But I had stopped with my gut stuff because in my brain, nobody told me this. In my brain I was thinking, well, I don't want to. I don't wanna lump stuff together. I don't wanna like clog myself up more. So I had stopped the cilium cellular. But I'm hearing you, maybe that was. That's still acting as a binder to sweep things out. So I should have not stopped that.

Yes. It's actually a broom through the gi. Oh, things out. So it's definitely a binder that moves things through that way. And it's. I really like it because, you know, it's really safe too. Like it's.

Yeah.

Even pregnant women will ask me all the time, how, what binder can I take? And I'm like, I really don't recommend most binders, but psyllium husk is, is great.

That's great. Okay. And for those of you that don't know, that mops up cholesterol too. So like, if you're somebody that's dealt with high cholesterol, you don't process saturated fat. Like that's a great thing to add. That's like easy selling it sound like your binder would be even great for that too. I, if you, if you're listening right now, if you go to midlife conversations.com forward/AEGIS A, E, G, I, S, that'll link you right over to her site. I know there's a code Natalie Jill that knocks a percent off. And I'll, I'll put in the show notes here. I think they have. Because they've just launched their binder. There's like a bigger discount. So I'll put all of that in the show notes if you go look. But I do know Natalie Jill's like a general coupon that at least knocks some off there. I personally am using her. Tadka. I'm going to start adding the clear AF today because I have not tried that. And then I'm gonna get some binders from you to try. So I'm curious there. Yeah, but the tudka I've been using for quite some time from her, so I do love that Tadka. And then the other things that she mentioned that are not from her company, but pea, you could. There's a lot of brands that. Do you have a particular brand that you'd suggest for that for Pea?

For mask, I like Mariva because it uses. It's actually in my online store. It uses pea and it has. I think it's Moreva pea. Plus it has PA and it has curcumin.

Okay, got it. And then you said for low stomach, like low secretary iga, you said colostrum.

Yeah.

And mega mucosals. That. Did I get that right?

Osa. Yeah.

Okay. And particular brands there or anything or what's your.

And orthomolecular makes one too. I'm. The name is evading me right now. Oh. Sbi protects. Sbi protect.

Sbi protects. Okay. Thank you. Jess, you're amazing. Where can people find you? I'll obviously link it all up in the show notes too, but where do you want them to follow you? Find you?

Sure. All the things so they can follow me on social media. Dr. Jess MD on Instagram, YouTube, Dr. Jessica Petross. And if you guys want to know more, want to learn my protocols, wellnessplus.com or see me in clinic. DrJess Health.

Thank you so much, Jess. Thank you.

Thank you for having me.